Slant Neck design and Toe hang (Odyssey)

[mjo23]

Anyone know why the degree of toe-hang for the same putter, say the Odyssey Seven S, often varies/changes across different release cycles? The Seven S in the Stroke lab Black line only had 25degrees of toe hang, but then it increased to ~44degrees in all of the more recent lines. I also believe the White Hot Og Rossie S has 37degrees of toe-hang, and now the TriHot5k version has 50degrees

 

I thought toe hang was basically a product of how far inside the CG the axis of the shaft passes; so i don’t quite understand all the variation for the same head. Plus the Odyssey Seven is pretty short from heel-to-toe so i’d think less toe hang would make more sense for the design but idk

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by mjo23

[MattM97]

COG location as well, many mallets the COG is located further back but on something like the Tri-Hot 5k with a ton of weight forward it pushes that COG closer to what a blade would be like.

[mjo23]

30 minutes ago, MattM97 said:

COG location as well, many mallets the COG is located further back but on something like the Tri-Hot 5k with a ton of weight forward it pushes that COG closer to what a blade would be like.

Right but I think part of the reason a traditional blade usually has a fair amount of toe hang is because they are generally pretty long from heel-to-toe, which allows for the axis of the shaft to easily pass inside the CG (ie “heel shafted”). And as i’m sure you know, low-toe hang blades still exist with long-neck, mid slants, center shafts, etc.

 

Like i think benefits of the forward CG exists regardless of how much toe hang there is. Idk. Unless i’m misunderstanding something, it just seems like an arbitrary change in the neck design

 

 

[MattM97]

32 minutes ago, mjo23 said:

Right but I think part of the reason a traditional blade usually has a fair amount of toe hang is because they are generally pretty long from heel-to-toe, which allows for the axis of the shaft to easily pass inside the CG (ie “heel shafted”). And as i’m sure you know, low-toe hang blades still exist with long-neck, mid slants, center shafts, etc.

 

Like i think benefits of the forward CG exists regardless of how much toe hang there is. Idk. Unless i’m misunderstanding something, it just seems like an arbitrary change in the neck design

 

 

 

The COG also moves front to back. That's why a slant neck Spider only has 30° of toe hang and not 60°. It's part of the reason a lot of mallets flop open too that COG is way back of the face. 

[mjo23]

37 minutes ago, MattM97 said:

 

The COG also moves front to back. That's why a slant neck Spider only has 30° of toe hang and not 60°. It's part of the reason a lot of mallets flop open too that COG is way back of the face. 

Yeah i know the CG is very forward in the TriHots, whereas other putters like the Spider X/Tour has CG further back - but Idk why that should influence toe hang, because from everything I’ve read toe hang is mainly a result of how much the putter is “heel shafted” or not (if the shaft is inserted closer to the heal => more toe hang)

 

For example, i have a face-balanced Odyssey Vline and a Toulon Chicago with 25degrees of toe hang. Both are double bends, but the bend is much less pronounced (thus more heel-shafted) in the Chicago - which is why there is toe hang. If i installed a normal Kbs double-bend into the Chicago, it would become face-balanced. Even some White Hot OG Double-Wide’s have 0degrees of hang while others have 15degrees (quality control issue but the only difference between the two is the double-bend shaft and how significant the bends are)

 

Unless I’m misunderstanding (not to sound like a broken record), I think it’s just a design choice. The forward CG might allow for more toe hang without experience the gear effect or flopping, but I don’t think the added toe hang is a necessity. Maybe more pros prefer the extra toe-hang and they’re catering to that

 

And despite the new spiders supposedly having more a forward COG, the toe hang is less than previous spiders afaik

Edited February 5, 2023 by mjo23

[Jc0]

54 minutes ago, mjo23 said:

Yeah i know the CG is very forward in the TriHots, whereas other putters like the Spider X/Tour has CG further back - but Idk why that should influence toe hang, because from everything I’ve read toe hang is mainly a result of how much the putter is “heel shafted” or not (if the shaft is inserted closer to the heal => more toe hang)

 

For example, i have a face-balanced Odyssey Vline and a Toulon Chicago with 25degrees of toe hang. Both are double bends, but the bend is much less pronounced (thus more heel-shafted) in the Chicago - which is why there is toe hang. If i installed a normal Kbs double-bend into the Chicago, it would become face-balanced. Even some White Hot OG Double-Wide’s have 0degrees of hang while others have 15degrees (quality control issue but the only difference between the two is the double-bend shaft and how significant the bends are)

 

Unless I’m misunderstanding (not to sound like a broken record), I think it’s just a design choice. The forward CG might allow for more toe hang without experience the gear effect or flopping, but I don’t think the added toe hang is a necessity. Maybe more pros prefer the extra toe-hang and they’re catering to that

 

And despite the new spiders supposedly having more a forward COG, the toe hang is less than previous spiders afaik

 

Two thinks affect toe hang. Cg location and where the shaft intersects the face. Toe hang is determined by when the cg of a club is below the shaft. If the cg is closer to the back of the putter it rotates less, less toe hang, to line the cg up with the shaft. If the cg is farther forward the putter has to rotate more, more toe hang, in order to line them up. 

 

For shaft intersection, intersection point closer to center causes less toe hang, intersection farther away causes more toe hang based on how much the cg had to move to line up. For the sevens in particular the intersection of the shaft point can vary a lot from model to model. I'm not sure why they do this but that's how it is. 

[mjo23]

40 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

For the sevens in particular the intersection of the shaft point can vary a lot from model to model. I'm not sure why they do this but that's how it is. 

So (if I understood all that) you’d agree that the intersection point is somewhat of an arbitrary design choice, and they could’ve designed a closer-to-center intersection point for the TriHot5k 7s (which would result in slightly less toe-hang)?

 

I get the intersection point, but not sure if i fully understood the part about the cg being below the shaft. Are u saying that: given two putters of equal insertion points, one has forward cg and one has backward cg - as a result, the putter with the forward cg will have more toe-hang than the putter with backward cg despite all else being equal? Bc that makes sense..i think..

Edited February 5, 2023 by mjo23

[Jc0]

37 minutes ago, mjo23 said:

So (if I understood all that) you’d agree that the intersection point is somewhat of an arbitrary design choice, and they could’ve designed a closer-to-center intersection point for the TriHot5k 7s (which would result in slightly less toe-hang)?

 

I get the intersection point, but not sure if i fully understood the part about the cg being below the shaft. Are u saying that: given two putters of equal insertion points, one has forward cg and one has backward cg - as a result, the putter with the forward cg will have more toe-hang than the putter with backward cg despite all else being equal? Bc that makes sense..i think..

 

The intersection point is arbitrary there may be a reason for based on odyssey want from their line up.

 

You are correct with the cg comment. Made the crappy diagram below to visualize. Black is blade (forward cg), orange is mallet (deep cg), + sign is cg. Deep cg only has to go the orange angle. The forward cg has to go the orange plus black angle. This is why with the same intersection point different cgs get you different toe hangs. 

 

[mjo23]

26 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

The intersection point is arbitrary there may be a reason for based on odyssey want from their line up.

 

You are correct with the cg comment. Made the crappy diagram below to visualize. Black is blade (forward cg), orange is mallet (deep cg), + sign is cg. Deep cg only has to go the orange angle. The forward cg has to go the orange plus black angle. This is why with the same intersection point different cgs get you different toe hangs. 

 

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Wow thank you, i’ve always wondered about this but didn’t know for certain. That’s why my Toulon Chicago seems to have a little more than the listed toe hang; I increased the stock 10gram heel-toe weights to 20grams (each), and the weights are very forward in the 2022 design

 

(Or Odyssey just listed the wrong specs as i’ve seen them do multiple times. Ill have to experiment with the weights to see if a 20gram difference is enough to noticeably effect the toe-hang)

Edited February 5, 2023 by mjo23