Forgiveness vs. Workability

[nvr3putt]

Are these mutually exclusive what is comes to irons? For an amateur, should I be focusing on forgiveness and consistency?

Currently looking to get a new set of irons and trying figure out whether I should choose a game improvement iron (JPX923 HMP) or players distance iron (MP 225).

I'm a mid handicapper (consistently shoot in the 80s) and rarely hit draws/fades on purpose. 😀

 

[My2Dogs]

I would focus on forgiveness.  That will automatically better your scores and once your comfortable with a set, you can learn to work the ball.  Any set is workable to a degree but I think the forgiveness is needed first to get you comfortable and scoring better right off the bat. 

[ShortGolfer]

As a slow swinger I play just the odd numbered irons, 5, 7, and 9.  They are SGI XXIO 12 SGI irons.  This frees up space in my bag for both!

I have a 52/10 MD5 gap wedge and a 58/6 Glide 3.0 thin sole for working the ball.  And back to a forgiving Mack Daddy 60/12 CB.

 

Being able to call up a draw or a fade makes my course management skills even more effective.  

 

[sadclevelandsports]

I don't think forgiveness of a club and your ability to work a ball have to be mutually exclusive 

[philly2kuk]

1 hour ago, nvr3putt said:

Are these mutually exclusive what is comes to irons? For an amateur, should I be focusing on forgiveness and consistency?

Currently looking to get a new set of irons and trying figure out whether I should choose a game improvement iron (JPX923 HMP) or players distance iron (MP 225).

I'm a mid handicapper (consistently shoot in the 80s) and rarely hit draws/fades on purpose. 😀

 

Why not make a combo set? Forgiving long irons with more controllable short irons. Might work for you if you can’t decide.

I’m a 12 handicap (so a high handicap on here haha) and I’ve played my g410 irons for three full seasons entering a fourth. I get very little practice time now with a young family, I’ve come down a shot every year since I switched and expect to come down at least another shot this year off current play. I’ve no issues shaping them, so don’t think a forgiving set can’t be workable. The benefits I’ve found of a forgiving set are my misses are pin high left and right rather than long and short.

 

[llewol007]

I think a set should be set up with both in mind. sup towards the longer irons, goal is mainly distance while minimizing off center shots. More likely perimeter weighted clubs would be a great choice. When you get into 8 iron on down to the wedges, this is where workability comes into play. More of an MB style club is more to my liking. Better feel on the ball and workability is key.

[PEI_Golfer]

Workability (L2R or R2L) is vastly over rated.  How often do people truly have control of the ball to say 'hey, I'm going to hit this 8y cut and hold off on the wind to a tucked pin', and then pull it off.

 

Playing a straight ball or just your natural shot shape for consistency will get you in less trouble and likely improve your play.  But as with everything golf, know your abilities and assess the risk/reward of each situation. 

 

But for me, more forgiving on toe strikes far outweighs shot shape ability in irons.

Edited February 5, 2023 by PEI_Golfer

[Red4282]

You can work any iron. Some may be a tad easier than others, for various reasons. The value in working the ball is recovery shots. Around a tree or a dogleg, etc. no need to work the ball 95% of the time, you are better off having a stock shot shape and using it.

[cgasucks]

Forgiveness first.  To a skilled player, one can work the ball with a SGI club as well as a blade.  

[chinaski]

There isn't much difference between those two irons. They are both plenty forgiving. Forgiveness is mostly help with distance and launch. 

[Stuart_G]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:48 PM, nvr3putt said:

Are these mutually exclusive what is comes to irons?

 

No, not at all.

 

 

[jvincent]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:48 PM, nvr3putt said:

Are these mutually exclusive what is comes to irons? For an amateur, should I be focusing on forgiveness and consistency?

Currently looking to get a new set of irons and trying figure out whether I should choose a game improvement iron (JPX923 HMP) or players distance iron (MP 225).

I'm a mid handicapper (consistently shoot in the 80s) and rarely hit draws/fades on purpose. 😀

 

 

One thing to remember is that when most people talk about "forgiveness" in irons they are really talking about distance forgiveness, i.e. not losing distance on strikes away from the center of the face.

 

Since iron faces are flat there's no gear effect (apologies to the other thread) that will correct the line on mishits. 

[WristySwing]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:48 PM, nvr3putt said:

Are these mutually exclusive what is comes to irons? For an amateur, should I be focusing on forgiveness and consistency?

Currently looking to get a new set of irons and trying figure out whether I should choose a game improvement iron (JPX923 HMP) or players distance iron (MP 225).

I'm a mid handicapper (consistently shoot in the 80s) and rarely hit draws/fades on purpose. 😀

 

 

What @PEI_Golfer already said is spot on.  Rarely are amateurs able to hit shots exactly as they desire, especially someone who shoots in the mid-80s most of the time (no shade, that is me as well).  Even tour pros have come out and admitted they only ever hit a handful of shots exactly as they had in mind in a given round.  I think what needs to be stated for everybody, not just you, is you need to play the iron that is the most forgiving for you that maintains a high percentage of centre-face contact and good flight numbers.  That could be the JPX923HMP, that could be the Pro 225, that could also be a set of T-100S.  You never know until you try them.  Pay for a fitting where you have access to a good assortment of heads and shafts and a knowledgeable person to help you interpret the numbers and see where the best numbers lie.  You might be surprised.

[Ri_Redneck]

Also, since the most common error when working the ball is over-cooking it, forgiveness could help with that also.

 

BT

[Pepperturbo]

On 2/4/2023 at 8:48 PM, nvr3putt said:

trying figure out whether I should choose a game improvement iron (JPX923 HMP) or players distance iron (MP 225).

I'm a mid handicapper (consistently shoot in the 80s) and rarely hit draws/fades on purpose. 😀

Being able to work an iron is NOT for everyone, to be good at it, takes an awfully lot of practice.  However, anyone can enjoy iron/CB forgiveness.  You have to decide what you want from golf, that makes your decision regarding club head.

 

When I took up golf, at 40 bought Pings off the shelf.  Used them 8 months before switching to blades under the advice of a relative that played on tour.   He told me the most important aspect to him was controlling the ball and trajectory; blades offered the purist that in spades.  People choosing CB's usually care more about forgiveness than workability.  Find your answer.

[DaveGoodrich]

If you hit a straight ball, all you have to control is distance and direction.  Easy right? 😉 If you curve the ball, you have to control two more variables; the start line, and the amount of curvature. A mismatch between the two adds to your dispersion. 

 

True, you have to control the start line for a straight ball too.  But your start line is your target line, so choosing your start line isn't a problem.  With a  curved ball, you have to match the start line to the amount of curvature, like a breaking putt.  Wouldn't you rather have a straight putt? 

 

Of course, most of us have some fade/draw bias in our "natural" swings. I'm a fader, but my best golf is played when my intentions is to hit as straight of a fade as I can.  

 

To bring this back to relevance for the OP, I don't think "workability" should be a major factor in choosing an iron.

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, DaveGoodrich said:

If you hit a straight ball, all you have to control is distance and direction.  Easy right? 😉 If you curve the ball, you have to control two more variables; the start line, and the amount of curvature. A mismatch between the two adds to your dispersion. 

 

True, you have to control the start line for a straight ball too.  But your start line is your target line, so choosing your start line isn't a problem.  With a  curved ball, you have to match the start line to the amount of curvature, like a breaking putt.  Wouldn't you rather have a straight putt? 

 

Of course, most of us have some fade/draw bias in our "natural" swings. I'm a fader, but my best golf is played when my intentions is to hit as straight of a fade as I can.  

 

To bring this back to relevance for the OP, I don't think "workability" should be a major factor in choosing an iron.

 

 

In theory - maybe.  But in reality, it's much more about selecting the shot that you can pull off more consistently and controlling or minimizing your miss tendencies.

[DaveGoodrich]

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

In theory - maybe.  But in reality, it's much more about selecting the shot that you can pull off more consistently and controlling or minimizing your miss tendencies

 

I don't think we are disagreeing. My point was that "working the ball" is not the shot that the vast majority of us can "pull off most consistently."  

 

 

 

 

 

[nitram]

You're going to consistently score better by hitting a stock trajectory towards the middle than working the corners and edges. Go for forgiveness until you have a shiny worn spot about the size of a US nickel in the middle of the face. By then you'll be hitting them well enough to work them a little easier or upgrade to something that will.

[Dpavs]

Preconceived notions as to what will work best for you based on some demographic are a witches brew at best.

Don't focus on either. Just figure out what works best for you and choose that.

 

[Rosco1216]

In the real world, more “workable” irons are simply heads that will increase a directional miss when face to path is slightly off.  I want irons that want go straight so that if I’m slightly off they will minimize the directional miss. 

[Stuart_G]

40 minutes ago, DaveGoodrich said:

I don't think we are disagreeing. My point was that "working the ball" is not the shot that the vast majority of us can "pull off most consistently." 

 

I don't disagree with that at all if you mean working it both ways.    The point I was trying to make (which may not have been clear) is that most am's out there (and even many pros) are much more likely to have a consistent fade or a consistent draw than they are to having a consistent straight shot. 

 

So in this statement you made:

9 hours ago, DaveGoodrich said:

If you hit a straight ball

 

IMO, that's a pretty big (and even unrealistic) "if" to have to depend on.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Krt22]

I think directional workability with irons is one of the most highly over-rated things us silly golfers try to convince ourselves is needed. Almost all the curve from an iron comes form the face/path relationship given the CG is to close to the face, which is why hacks everywhere can still slice the heck out of a super GI iron

 

 

[ShortGolfer]

The metric for most golfers is low score, which is most easily achieved via course management and a repeatable swing.

 

But, that is far from only way to enjoy a round of golf.  A beginner may find it more fun to play for "the best shot of the day" and to stop counting strokes.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

12 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

I don't disagree with that at all if you mean working it both ways.    The point I was trying to make (which may not have been clear) is that most am's out there (and even many pros) are much more likely to have a consistent fade or a consistent draw than they are to having a consistent straight shot. 

Agree 100%

 

Most golfers have a left or right shot tendency; to hit the ball straight is a much bigger challenge.  Most of my golf friends hit fades or worst.  A few hit natural draws that don't listen.  One 12 index friend, since his college golf days, hits a draw, but wishes every day he could hit is straight or baby fade.

[Dan Drake]

On 2/6/2023 at 4:51 PM, Ri_Redneck said:

Also, since the most common error when working the ball is over-cooking it, forgiveness could help with that also.

 

BT

I completely agree that over-curve is the more common error, and that forgiveness will help with that. 

 

But I would like to add a little color to that subject, if I may.  I believe that the double-cross (exaggerated under-curve) is the much more damaging result when discussing over vs. under curvature, even when adjusted for frequency.  

 

If I play a power-fade and my shots all day are a bit more on the wipey-fade side of things, I generally still shoot a pretty good score compared to my best/baseline.  From a strokes gained perspective, maybe each shot that I over-cut is .1 SG worse than my norm and I do that 15 times in a given round.  So I would be losing 1.5 strokes to myself by having that ball flight issue that day.  But if I'm teetering between the power fade and straight ball all day, that means that the face/path is a much smaller window and I'm almost assuredly going to have them overlap a couple of times and hit some double crosses.  And in my experience, double crosses are almost always a 1 stroke, or greater, penalty, meaning it only takes 2, or even just 1, double cross to cost me more than the -1.5 SG that over-curving cost me.  

 

Kinda sums up how we can shoot two completely different looking scores, right?  A 75 could be 3 birdies, 3 bogies, 1 double, and 1 triple, or it could be 1 birdie and 4 bogies.  And both rounds feel completely different during and after.  

 

Another one of the great dichotomies of golf, isn't it?  We want to work towards hitting it straighter (better face/path) while practicing, but on course we are probably better off being a little more divergent face/path.  Sorry for soapbox, don't mean to derail.  

[sheamclkel]

Forgiveness forgiveness  forgiveness!!!

 

In my opinion working the golf ball is highly overrated, and the idea really increases the difficulty of an already tough game. Even when you watch the best players in the world, in general they do not curve the ball very much, and generally when they do they have a bias that they play to.

[Pepperturbo]

Yesterday Keegan Bradley hit maybe the best shot of the day, a beautiful draw, on a long Par 3, to a few inches.   His default is a draw, like John Rahm's default is a fade, and Zack Johnson, depends on his draw.  Most of the PGA Tour guys hit either a fade or a draw, fewer hit it straight.

 

Let's be honest, working the ball is highly overrated for those that don't practice, and or fear working the ball will turn up less than their best score.  I would NEVER tell anyone to work the ball, but I would never assume everyone needs a lot of forgiveness to post a good score.

[Ri_Redneck]

48 minutes ago, Dan Drake said:

I completely agree that over-curve is the more common error, and that forgiveness will help with that. 

 

But I would like to add a little color to that subject, if I may.  I believe that the double-cross (exaggerated under-curve) is the much more damaging result when discussing over vs. under curvature, even when adjusted for frequency.  

 

If I play a power-fade and my shots all day are a bit more on the wipey-fade side of things, I generally still shoot a pretty good score compared to my best/baseline.  From a strokes gained perspective, maybe each shot that I over-cut is .1 SG worse than my norm and I do that 15 times in a given round.  So I would be losing 1.5 strokes to myself by having that ball flight issue that day.  But if I'm teetering between the power fade and straight ball all day, that means that the face/path is a much smaller window and I'm almost assuredly going to have them overlap a couple of times and hit some double crosses.  And in my experience, double crosses are almost always a 1 stroke, or greater, penalty, meaning it only takes 2, or even just 1, double cross to cost me more than the -1.5 SG that over-curving cost me.  

 

Kinda sums up how we can shoot two completely different looking scores, right?  A 75 could be 3 birdies, 3 bogies, 1 double, and 1 triple, or it could be 1 birdie and 4 bogies.  And both rounds feel completely different during and after.  

 

Another one of the great dichotomies of golf, isn't it?  We want to work towards hitting it straighter (better face/path) while practicing, but on course we are probably better off being a little more divergent face/path.  Sorry for soapbox, don't mean to derail.  

SO right. I forgot about the dreaded double-cross (intentionally most likely)!! I too play a power fade and since getting it pretty well grooved, am swinging for the bleachers most of the time. A DC for me is almost always a stroke (or two!) unless there is another fairway left! 🤪 

 

Good point!

 

BT

[ChipNRun]

On 2/6/2023 at 4:15 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Being able to work an iron is NOT for everyone, to be good at it, takes an awfully lot of practice.  However, anyone can enjoy iron/CB forgiveness. 

 

With this as a starting point, a related factor is clubhead speed. My driver CHS is 90 mph on  a good day, kind of on the line. For past 15 years, game-improvement /CBs tend to give me the best performance. This is especially true if the GI irons have higher lofts than the PDs.

As for as working the ball, to what degree to you mean? Golfers who understand the rules of ball flight can hit a basic face or draw with almost any club.

 

If you want to master the Big Nine, in the words of PT, it will take "an awfully lot of practice."

 

And pursuit of forgiveness - ability to launch ball on less than solid hits - can be overdone. The problem I've had in testing out SGI irons is that the longer irons launch fine, but at about 8i they can start ballooning the ball. That's why blended sets often select 7i and below for helpful launch channels in head, and more standard CBs at 8i and above. (Many TM iron models since the Rocketbladez have used this design.)

 

Tactical choices to make: into a slight headwind... hit a 6i knockdown, or a full 5i? (Note: full 5i takes less practice).

Edited February 10, 2023 by ChipNRun