A fun Rules question

[rogolf]

Just for fun, what is the answer to this question?

A player’s tee shot come to rest in the fairway.  In preparing for his next stroke, the player accidentally moves the ball with a practice swing.  The player retrieves that ball, but drops a different ball at the original spot.  The dropped ball rolls six inches sideways into a deep divot hole.  The player angrily picks up that ball and throws it into the nearby penalty area.  He then returns to the tee and plays again.  How many penalty strokes has the player incurred?

 

[Wendy123]

One

[Scooby555]

None if you are Patrick Reed.  He would claim that none of that happened and this is his 1st tee shot.  He will dismiss the camera footage and his wife will cancel everyone on twitter.

[davep043]

No intervening event, but I'd say 1 for 9.4, and 1 more for Stroke and Distance.  None of the other additional infractions would have added another PS, but S&D is always applied.

[Socrates]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

Just for fun, what is the answer to this question?

A player’s tee shot come to rest in the fairway.  In preparing for his next stroke, the player accidentally moves the ball with a practice swing.  The player retrieves that ball, but drops a different ball at the original spot.  The dropped ball rolls six inches sideways into a deep divot hole.  The player angrily picks up that ball and throws it into the nearby penalty area.  He then returns to the tee and plays again.  How many penalty strokes has the player incurred?

 

 

I'll give it a shot:

Caused the ball to move (1 Stroke).  Ball needs to be placed not dropped.  Ball does not need to be the same ball as you are allowed to replace it.  Improper drop not counted since it was picked up.  Even though it was tossed into Penalty Area.  Going back to the tee and hitting another brings stroke and distance penalty into play (essentially declaring ball lost).  So a stroke penalty.

 

My best guess is that he is hitting his 4th shot off the tee box.  Original stroke plus 2 Penalty Strokes and he is hitting another shot. 

As davpe043 said while I was typing.

 

Edit: might be incurring a penalty for delay and even a DQ for conduct, but those are a different matter.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Socrates

[sui generis]

I'm with Wendy. 🙂

 

I'm thinking Wendy may change her mind.

Edited February 6, 2023 by sui generis
C18.1/2

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

I'm with Wendy. 🙂

Usually a smart move, I realize I'm taking a big risk by disagreeing.

10 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Ball does not need to be the same ball as you are allowed to replace it. 

In general, 9.4 and 14.2 require you to Replace the Original Ball.  

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

Just for fun, what is the answer to this question?

A player’s tee shot come to rest in the fairway.  In preparing for his next stroke, the player accidentally moves the ball with a practice swing.  The player retrieves that ball, but drops a different ball at the original spot.  The dropped ball rolls six inches sideways into a deep divot hole.  The player angrily picks up that ball and throws it into the nearby penalty area.  He then returns to the tee and plays again.  How many penalty strokes has the player incurred?

 

 

 

So then, "related" acts.

 

1 PS for moving the ball in play. I'd guess the other errors/penalties would be related to moving the ball and not count but I'd think that then taking S&D would not be a related act & therefore would be a 2nd PS.

 

So I guess I'd vote with dave,,,,,, 2PS total.

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So then, "related" acts

In the new rules it's no longer related acts, but rather intervening events in 1.3c(4).  I think the result is the same in this case.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

I'll give it a shot:

Caused the ball to move (1 Stroke).  Ball needs to be placed not dropped.  Ball does not need to be the same ball as you are allowed to replace it. 

 

From which Rule does that come from? R9.4a states otherwise:

 

"If the player lifts their ball at rest or causes it to move, the ball must be replaced on its original spot "

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, rogolf said:

Just for fun, what is the answer to this question?

A player’s tee shot come to rest in the fairway.  In preparing for his next stroke, the player accidentally moves the ball with a practice swing.  The player retrieves that ball, but drops a different ball at the original spot.  The dropped ball rolls six inches sideways into a deep divot hole.  The player angrily picks up that ball and throws it into the nearby penalty area.  He then returns to the tee and plays again.  How many penalty strokes has the player incurred?

 

 

 

1 PS for moving the ball in play

1 PS for S&D

4th from the tee

 

The answer is two penalty strokes.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Hawkeye77]

4

 

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

4

 

 

You say 4 penalty strokes. Based on which Rules?

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

You say 4 penalty strokes. Based on which Rules?

 

That wasn't the question, but based on the ones I believe apply!

 

Happy to be wrong and be educated.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

That wasn't the question, but based on the ones I believe apply!

 

Happy to be wrong and be educated.

 

The question was how many penalty strokes the player has incurred.

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The question was how many penalty strokes the player has incurred.

 

Yep, I said 4. 

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Yep, I said 4. 

So you say 4 penalty strokes. Rules?

Edited February 6, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Dpavs]

I'm gonna go for only 1 also.

[Mr. Bean]

I believe this covers the incident with sufficient clarity:

 

18.1/2 – Penalty Cannot Be Avoided by Playing Under Stroke and Distance

If a player lifts their ball when not allowed to do so, the player cannot avoid the one-stroke penalty under Rule 9.4b by then deciding to play under stroke and distance.

For example, a player’s tee shot comes to rest in a wooded area. The player picks up a ball, believing it is a stray ball, but discovers the ball was the ball in play. The player then decides to play under stroke and distance.

The player gets one penalty stroke under Rule 9.4b in addition to the stroke and distance penalty under Rule 18.1, since at the time the ball was lifted the player was not allowed to lift the ball and had no intention to play under stroke and distance. The player’s next stroke will be their fourth.

[Wendy123]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

I'm with Wendy. 🙂

 

I'm thinking Wendy may change her mind.

Indeed, I have. Of course the stroke and distance penalty is not part of the list of situations without an intervening event.

[Krt22]

In this case, was going back to the tee even a viable option? It was not lost or out of bounds, it was not declared unplayable (at least the OP didn't mention it).

 

I say 3. 1 for the initial accidental touching, 2 PS for playing from the wrong spot.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

I'm with Wendy. 🙂

 

I'm thinking Wendy may change her mind.

 

So you may have changed your mind as well..? Good for you both 😉

 

P.S. What is that ice cube on the left side of any emoji one attaches? I hate it.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

In this case, was going back to the tee even a viable option? It was not lost or out of bounds, it was not declared unplayable (at least the OP didn't mention it).

 

I say 3. 1 for the initial accidental touching, 2 PS for playing from the wrong spot.

 

You are ALWAYS allowed to take S&D with loss of stroke & distance. ALWAYS. Read Rule 18.1.

[Socrates]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

From which Rule does that come from? R9.4a states otherwise:

 

"If the player lifts their ball at rest or causes it to move, the ball must be replaced on its original spot "

I stand corrected.  14.2(a), they must use the original ball so you can add a stroke for that.  Likely hitting 5 off of the tee.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I stand corrected.  14.2(a), they must use the original ball so you can add a stroke for that.  Likely hitting 5 off of the tee.

Multiple infractions without an intervening event result in only one penalty, per 1.3c(4).

[rogolf]

Gosh, it's nice to be discussing Rules again! 😀

[Socrates]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

Multiple infractions without an intervening event result in only one penalty, per 1.3c(4).

I’m interpreting the events as separate.  It’s not like he is violating the same Rule, he is fracturing several. Which is why I don’t think that applies.  I guess you could be compassionate and only mete out one penalty, but that might be a RO decision. 

[Socrates]

It’s been a while since I looked at the USGA Rule site.  When did the do away with the “Simplified” Rules?   I’m assuming at the beginning of January, but like I said, it’s been a while. 

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, Socrates said:

I’m interpreting the events as separate.  It’s not like he is violating the same Rule, he is fracturing several. Which is why I don’t think that applies.  I guess you could be compassionate and only mete out one penalty, but that might be a RO decision. 

This changed with the 2023 rules revision.  You can now break multiple different rules, but if there's no intervening event (read the rule to understand what those are) there's only one penalty assessed.  If the infractions have different levels of penalty strokes, the more severe penalty is enforced.

[Colin L]

I was  mightily relieved by the change and thankful that I had got away with not having had to make a ruling for real under the previous one.