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Help with bag gapping


zachjal

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Hi folks!

 

Would appreciate some ideas as to what I should bag. I'm figuring out that I don't need to carry both a 4i (195 carry) and 5i (188 carry). Probably going to bag the 4 and ditch the 5 for now. I know this is player specific but wondering what (if anything) jumps out at you. 

 

I carry 56 and 60 wedges with very different grinds. Up here in Canada where I play, the bunkers and fairways can vary wildly from one day to the next, from very fluffy/soft to rock hard. 56 is a typical high bounce SW, the 60 has very little bounce and mainly used for hardpan and when I have to throw the ball up off a hard lie. Could look at alternating the 56/60 in and out if you have some different ideas. 

 

Club/carry

 

Driver 280

4h 230

3i (graphite, pretty hot face) 215

4i 195

5i 188

6i 179

7i 166

8i 155

9i 142

PW 130

50° 115

56° 105

60° (Dont really full swing it) 

 

I'm leaning towards a hybrid with more loft that can get me out of rough and/or just a general helper club, or a 5w (something longer than the 4h). In the past I've hard a harder time controlling a fairway wood and it tends to get me in trouble. I've got a decent amount of length with them (typically around 255) but I get punished. That being said, this was 4 years ago. 

 

My current 4h is really nice and flies predictably and straight but sort of harder than I expected to play out of tougher lies that require length. The 3i is my fave off the tee and I can hit it off the fairway too, but weird lies and/or longer grass it won't cut it, hence why Im thinking maybe a higher/softer hybrid that will go about the same length, something like that. 

 

Any ideas would be helpful thanks! 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, zachjal said:

Hi folks!

 

Would appreciate some ideas as to what I should bag. I'm figuring out that I don't need to carry both a 4i (195 carry) and 5i (188 carry). Probably going to bag the 4 and ditch the 5 for now. I know this is player specific but wondering what (if anything) jumps out at you. 

 

I carry 56 and 60 wedges with very different grinds. Up here in Canada where I play, the bunkers and fairways can vary wildly from one day to the next, from very fluffy/soft to rock hard. 56 is a typical high bounce SW, the 60 has very little bounce and mainly used for hardpan and when I have to throw the ball up off a hard lie. Could look at alternating the 56/60 in and out if you have some different ideas. 

 

Club/carry

 

Driver 280

4h 230

3i (graphite, pretty hot face) 215

4i 195

5i 188

6i 179

7i 166

8i 155

9i 142

PW 130

50° 115

56° 105

60° (Dont really full swing it) 

 

I'm leaning towards a hybrid with more loft that can get me out of rough and/or just a general helper club, or a 5w (something longer than the 4h). In the past I've hard a harder time controlling a fairway wood and it tends to get me in trouble. I've got a decent amount of length with them (typically around 255) but I get punished. That being said, this was 4 years ago. 

 

My current 4h is really nice and flies predictably and straight but sort of harder than I expected to play out of tougher lies that require length. The 3i is my fave off the tee and I can hit it off the fairway too, but weird lies and/or longer grass it won't cut it, hence why Im thinking maybe a higher/softer hybrid that will go about the same length, something like that. 

 

Any ideas would be helpful thanks! 

 

 

 

bend the loft on your 4 iron like 1 degree strong so it flies 200

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3 Iron: TaylorMade P790 18° w/ Graphite Design Tour AD HY 95-X (40")

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3 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

IMO you have three issues -

 

Your iron distance progression is collapsing above your 6 iron. You hit your driver 20 yards further than me, but I hit my 4 iron 15 yards further than you. That leaves a very difficult gulf to fill.

 

You have another void between your 4 hybrid and driver, and another club, the 3 iron, at a lower loft than the longer 4 hybrid.

 

You have “favorite “ clubs that are acting as roadblocks to optimal gapping and swing consistency across your set.

 

Potential solution.

 

Reshaft your 4 and 5 irons with lighter/graphite shafts at lower swing weights, or replace them with utility irons such as the Srixon ZX’s. Drop the 3 iron and 4 hybrid. Go 3 hybrid and 4 wood. Don’t accept the idea of “I didn’t hit X type of club well so I give up”. There is a radical diversity of hybrids and FW’s out there. You just haven’t found the right ones yet.

I can step on my 4i and get a bit more out of it but I feel like I need to swing needlessly fast and I get kind of bad dispersion. I think you may be onto something making my current set more efficient. Thanks for the idea. I'll have to get another gapping done and then maybe ditch the clubs as suggested. 

 

Thanks

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51 minutes ago, zachjal said:

I'm leaning towards a hybrid with more loft that can get me out of rough and/or just a general helper club, or a 5w (something longer than the 4h). In the past I've hard a harder time controlling a fairway wood and it tends to get me in trouble.

 

In past, which fairway wood were you using? 3W? 4W?

 

For a single fairway wood, a 4W or 5W might work better. More loft for launch, and shorter shaft for control.

 

If you have trouble hitting a 4H out of the rough, a 5H likely would bump into 3i for distance.

 

If you had a 4W/5W and dumped the 4i, this could work. When you do this, bend 5i one degree stronger to have more even gapping.

 

This would give you bridge clubs with fairly even gapping, but can muster different trajectories. (4/5W high, 3i low).

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What's In The Bag (As of April 2023, post-MAX change + new putter)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5° (base loft); weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  PutterΨSeeMore FGP + SuperStroke 1.0PT, 33" shaft

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16 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

In past, which fairway wood were you using? 3W? 4W?

 

For a single fairway wood, a 4W or 5W might work better. More loft for launch, and shorter shaft for control.

 

If you have trouble hitting a 4H out of the rough, a 5H likely would bump into 3i for distance.

 

If you had a 4W/5W and dumped the 4i, this could work. When you do this, bend 5i one degree stronger to have more even gapping.

 

This would give you bridge clubs with fairly even gapping, but can muster different trajectories. (4/5W high, 3i low).

 

It was a 3w cranked open to roughly a 4 (16.75 degrees or something like that). I think I just didnt get along with it. Was thinking of a higher lofted easier to hit fairway. Something with a longer shaft that will get the ball up in the air and going a decent ways. 

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17 hours ago, Dan Drake said:

Sooooooo................

 

I'm working on a thread/article on exactly this subject right now.  But, since you asked, I'll throw out the quick & dirty.  The good news is you only have one real change to make!  Here's what I would suggest for yardages that you should try to cover with your set:

 

1 279 Good
2 256 Need 2nd driving option
3 234 Good
4 214 Good
5 196 Good
6 179 Good 
7 164 Good 
8 150 Weaken 8i by 1°
9 137 Weaken 9i by 1°
10 125 Weaken PW by 1°
11 115 Good
12 105 Good

 

These are carry, and match up to your numbers really, really well.  You honestly don't even need to bend the short irons.  

 

Quick & dirty: Dump the 5i & add another driving option that will carry 256ish.  Could be a mini driver, fairway wood, hybrid, or even just a 2nd driver.  Let me know if you have any questions and good luck!

 

 

This is sort of naturally where I was going to go. I might ditch the 5 and play just the 4, or bend the 5 a little stronger. I tend to have a large gap because driver is the only swing that I go for max distance, at the expense of dispersion. I can usually get about an additional 10% out of my irons if I step on them, but I dont really do that. For the secondary tee option, do you feel like you "go for it" or are you mostly concerned about dispersion? 

 

Would be interested in your thoughts thanks! 

 

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1 hour ago, zachjal said:

 

 

This is sort of naturally where I was going to go. I might ditch the 5 and play just the 4, or bend the 5 a little stronger. I tend to have a large gap because driver is the only swing that I go for max distance, at the expense of dispersion. I can usually get about an additional 10% out of my irons if I step on them, but I dont really do that. For the secondary tee option, do you feel like you "go for it" or are you mostly concerned about dispersion? 

 

Would be interested in your thoughts thanks! 

 

The 2nd longest club in the bag should (in theory) accomplish the following:

 

In Order of Importance:

1. Curve in the opposite direction than the primary driver does

2. Go shorter than the primary driver; for you I suggest you find a club that goes about 255y carry

3. Be functional off the turf; this is the least impactful on your score and should be considered a preferred indifferent.  If you can hit it off the turf, great. If not, but it does the first two priorities really well, it just is what it is.  

 

As for the "max distance" swing question, I'll say that whatever you need to do to get the above accomplished is fine by me!

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6 minutes ago, Dan Drake said:

The 2nd longest club in the bag should (in theory) accomplish the following:

 

In Order of Importance:

1. Curve in the opposite direction than the primary driver does

2. Go shorter than the primary driver; for you I suggest you find a club that goes about 255y carry

3. Be functional off the turf; this is the least impactful on your score and should be considered a preferred indifferent.  If you can hit it off the turf, great. If not, but it does the first two priorities really well, it just is what it is.  

 

As for the "max distance" swing question, I'll say that whatever you need to do to get the above accomplished is fine by me!

 

Awesome. I have been jonesing for something like a 5w. Something with a longer shaft than my 4h, that will fly nice and high and can be used off the tee. Thanks for your guidance! 

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1 hour ago, zachjal said:

 

 

This is sort of naturally where I was going to go. I might ditch the 5 and play just the 4, or bend the 5 a little stronger. I tend to have a large gap because driver is the only swing that I go for max distance, at the expense of dispersion. I can usually get about an additional 10% out of my irons if I step on them, but I dont really do that. For the secondary tee option, do you feel like you "go for it" or are you mostly concerned about dispersion? 

 

Would be interested in your thoughts thanks! 

 

 

For sure! Most of my practice time goes towards this. I use a modified Pelz clockface, and I get a lot of inbetween yardages from my PW-50-56 to tackle those 80y-135y scoring shots. Point taken, I really dont think you can work on wedges and partial wedges enough. 

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20 hours ago, zachjal said:

Hi folks!

 

Would appreciate some ideas as to what I should bag. I'm figuring out that I don't need to carry both a 4i (195 carry) and 5i (188 carry). Probably going to bag the 4 and ditch the 5 for now. I know this is player specific but wondering what (if anything) jumps out at you. 

 

I carry 56 and 60 wedges with very different grinds. Up here in Canada where I play, the bunkers and fairways can vary wildly from one day to the next, from very fluffy/soft to rock hard. 56 is a typical high bounce SW, the 60 has very little bounce and mainly used for hardpan and when I have to throw the ball up off a hard lie. Could look at alternating the 56/60 in and out if you have some different ideas. 

 

Club/carry

 

Driver 280

4h 230

3i (graphite, pretty hot face) 215

4i 195

5i 188

6i 179

7i 166

8i 155

9i 142

PW 130

50° 115

56° 105

60° (Dont really full swing it) 

 

I'm leaning towards a hybrid with more loft that can get me out of rough and/or just a general helper club, or a 5w (something longer than the 4h). In the past I've hard a harder time controlling a fairway wood and it tends to get me in trouble. I've got a decent amount of length with them (typically around 255) but I get punished. That being said, this was 4 years ago. 

 

My current 4h is really nice and flies predictably and straight but sort of harder than I expected to play out of tougher lies that require length. The 3i is my fave off the tee and I can hit it off the fairway too, but weird lies and/or longer grass it won't cut it, hence why Im thinking maybe a higher/softer hybrid that will go about the same length, something like that. 

 

Any ideas would be helpful thanks! 

 

 

 

Your driver and 4i on down are actually pretty close to my distances. However, I have a bit extra in the tank and can wring another 10-15y out of the 4i when needed. Between Dr and 4i I have a 14.5° (245y stock) and 18° (225y stock) FWs. I DO play 115g graphite in my irons, but just because I have arthritis and pain issues when I play a lot. I like adjustable FWs because you can tweak them to the course of the day (as long as FA doesn't bother you!) which makes them very versatile. I also carry both high bounce and low bounce GW & LW and take out the ones that don't suit the conditions. I play a lot of travel golf all around the country and may play anything from 6000yds to 7500 yds (could be wet - could be dry), so it helps to be versatile.

 

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5 hours ago, zachjal said:

 

It was a 3w cranked open to roughly a 4 (16.75 degrees or something like that). I think I just didnt get along with it. Was thinking of a higher lofted easier to hit fairway. Something with a longer shaft that will get the ball up in the air and going a decent ways. 

 

A local golf pro and clubsmith went this way: He had a 5W with a 4W-length shaft. He said the 5W~ was only 15 yards shorter than a 3W, and a lot more reliable.

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What's In The Bag (As of April 2023, post-MAX change + new putter)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5° (base loft); weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  PutterΨSeeMore FGP + SuperStroke 1.0PT, 33" shaft

Ball: 1. Srixon Q-Star Tour / 2. Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

    * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

     Ψ  Backups:

  • Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip |
  • Slotline Inertial SL-583F w/ SuperStroke 2.MidSlim (50 gr. weight removed) |
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Club/carry

 

Driver 280

4h 230

3i (graphite, pretty hot face) 215

4i 195

5i 188

6i 179

7i 166

8i 155

9i 142

PW 130

50° 115

56° 105



On average I'd say you're blocking yourself off from the best easiest and safest ways to play a lot of golf holes.

More options off of the tee and better options for extremely LONG approach shots might help.


So try to find a club for each of these distances 250 225 200

Biggest gapping issues seem to be

280-230

something that goes 245 or 250 might be ideal. Try some 3-4-5 woods. 4wood is usually the answer. Goes damn far and straighter for most.


Since the 4 hybrid goes 230 you've got 225 covered already Nice!


Now from 230-190 I'd say that 3 iron is probably an opportunity to improve

if you got something with more consistent more spin and or had better misses that would solve a ton of issues. If you haven't tried a high lofted fairway metal I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

I don't really like the 4-5 iron gap but if you wanted to keep the 4 it'd probs be better for your scores as it goes close enough to 200 and with your swing speed you really won't have 200 yard shots very often unless they're on par 3's

Let us know what you decide to do and how the challenging clubs turn out all the best!


 

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19 hours ago, JAMH03 said:

I don't really like the 4-5 iron gap but if you wanted to keep the 4 it'd probs be better for your scores as it goes close enough to 200...

 

3i (graphite, pretty hot face) 215

......................................................20 yard gap

4i 195

....................................................... 7 yard gap

5i 188

 

IF you keep 4i, one solution might be to reshaft with graphite, as you did in 3i. This would increase clubhead speed and give a more consistent launch, and add some yards to the club.

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What's In The Bag (As of April 2023, post-MAX change + new putter)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5° (base loft); weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  PutterΨSeeMore FGP + SuperStroke 1.0PT, 33" shaft

Ball: 1. Srixon Q-Star Tour / 2. Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

    * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

     Ψ  Backups:

  • Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip |
  • Slotline Inertial SL-583F w/ SuperStroke 2.MidSlim (50 gr. weight removed) |
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Re, the 5i and 4i debate, before I go do a gap test, bend lofts, ditch clubs and/or buy a fw, I've got a big question:

 

I can squeeze a pretty decent amount of yards out of my longer irons. I just intentionally swing under my max/most efficient in order to keep consistency high, but then I tend to need to club up. .

For example, I can carry my 4i 215 pretty comfortably. I can get my 3i up to 225 carry. But my misses tend to be worse. 

 

Do you guys tend to usuay hit close to your max, or do you lay off?? 

 

I'm a bit confused as to what is most effective. 

 

TLDR:

 

Given the choice, would you rather all-out swing a 5i, or hit a smoother punchier 4i? Maybe a change in strategy and a 250y club is the answer. 

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3 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

3i (graphite, pretty hot face) 215

......................................................20 yard gap

4i 195

....................................................... 7 yard gap

5i 188

 

IF you keep 4i, one solution might be to reshaft with graphite, as you did in 3i. This would increase clubhead speed and give a more consistent launch, and add some yards to the club.

Definitely onthe table. I've got a graphite shaft in my closet I can throw in there. 

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33 minutes ago, zachjal said:

Re, the 5i and 4i debate, before I go do a gap test, bend lofts, ditch clubs and/or buy a fw, I've got a big question:

 

I can squeeze a pretty decent amount of yards out of my longer irons. I just intentionally swing under my max/most efficient in order to keep consistency high, but then I tend to need to club up. .

For example, I can carry my 4i 215 pretty comfortably. I can get my 3i up to 225 carry. But my misses tend to be worse. 

 

Do you guys tend to usuay hit close to your max, or do you lay off?? 

 

I'm a bit confused as to what is most effective. 

 

TLDR:

 

Given the choice, would you rather all-out swing a 5i, or hit a smoother punchier 4i? Maybe a change in strategy and a 250y club is the answer. 

I would say that there are two categories here:

 

1. Golfers who swing at pretty much the same effort, probably close to max but not at max, with every club

2. Golfers who swing with a smidge more effort as each club gets longer, until they get to driver which is basically max effort.  

 

Interestingly enough, there is a MOI/Swing weight matching idea tied into here.  In theory, if a golfer swings each club with the same effort, MOI matched clubs make more sense than swing weight.  But if a golfer swings each longer club with a little more effort, then swing weight matching would tend to make more sense.

 

Each golfer is pretty specific, one way or another, but (and herein lies the answer to your question) I don't think there are very many out there hitting soft 4i's!  Regardless of which category you tend to fall in, once you are at the longer end of the bag, you probably are giving it a bit of a lash either way!  

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Quote

Do you guys tend to usuay hit close to your max, or do you lay off?? 

 

I'm a bit confused as to what is most effective. 


Great question and there are lots of ways to approach this.

Short answer is TEST it.

Hit a number of irons flat out, check the distance and dispersion then try again with less than full power. Measure those then what works best is your stock swing.

Since it's different for different people we have to measure for ourselves. For most players I'd imagine the stock swing is somewhere between 80-95% of full power.
 

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17 hours ago, zachjal said:

Re, the 5i and 4i debate, before I go do a gap test, bend lofts, ditch clubs and/or buy a fw, I've got a big question:

 

I can squeeze a pretty decent amount of yards out of my longer irons. I just intentionally swing under my max/most efficient in order to keep consistency high, but then I tend to need to club up. .

For example, I can carry my 4i 215 pretty comfortably. I can get my 3i up to 225 carry. But my misses tend to be worse. 

 

Do you guys tend to usuay hit close to your max, or do you lay off?? 

 

I'm a bit confused as to what is most effective. 

 

TLDR:

 

Given the choice, would you rather all-out swing a 5i, or hit a smoother punchier 4i? Maybe a change in strategy and a 250y club is the answer. 

Personally I would rather swing the shorter club harder in the top end of the bag, but with the shorter/scoring clubs, it is the exact opposite. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for all the help! 

 

Ended up finding a TSI2 FW second hand. I also poured over the numbers and figured out that I was adapting my newer driver swing (less spin, more neutral to slightly upwards angle of attack) to my irons. So they were way less efficient! Went back to more downwards angle and gained back some yards on the longer sticks.

 

Ended up ditching the 5i and bagged the 3w. 

 

Thanks for all the help folks.

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Excellent decision 😉!  And remember that the 3w's main purpose is as a 2nd driver, NOT an approach shot club, so think of it and set it up that way.  

 

And please keep us posted on the results.  I'd love to hear how often you really are just 100% in need of the 5i and how many times you just hit the 4i instead and it works out perfectly fine!

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MD2 55° + PM 1.0 58° w/DG
Odyssey White Hot 2 Ball Frankenstein (Fowler style)
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3 hours ago, Dan Drake said:

Excellent decision 😉!  And remember that the 3w's main purpose is as a 2nd driver, NOT an approach shot club, so think of it and set it up that way.  

 

And please keep us posted on the results.  I'd love to hear how often you really are just 100% in need of the 5i and how many times you just hit the 4i instead and it works out perfectly fine!

 

 

It's snowy up here, so only sim numbers to speak of. 

 

I choke down on the 4i about an inch to get a 5i-like carry. It comes in a bit more shallow and runs about 5-6y more than my 5i, but after 4-5 rounds, I haven't held (or run through) any more or less greens.  

 

I don't mind having a slightly larger yardage gap in my longer irons. My dispersion isnt tight enough to warrant tighter gaps up there anyways. 

 

I do have the 3w cranked up a bit to closer to a 4w. I am getting 245y of carry and it's landing really soft! So far so good. The plan with this club is off the tee, when my driver will get me in trouble, or as a second shot into a par 5 if there isn't too much trouble. 

 

Or, a common, but rarely talked about shot around these forums, after blasting a drive into a hazard, or topping it 60y, I sometimes leave myself 240y going into a par 4 😥🤢😂

 

Zach 

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On 2/10/2023 at 8:00 PM, JAMH03 said:


 


Great question and there are lots of ways to approach this.

Short answer is TEST it.

Hit a number of irons flat out, check the distance and dispersion then try again with less than full power. Measure those then what works best is your stock swing.

Since it's different for different people we have to measure for ourselves. For most players I'd imagine the stock swing is somewhere between 80-95% of full power.
 

I did!

 

I figured out that choking down and effectively shortening the shaft but still swinging with the same intent got me the results I wanted. 

 

Thanks for the tip!

 

Z

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