Driver Prices-Have They Reached The Tipping Point

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

@WristySwingyou seem to be confused. Sorry I stated all my friends. I don't know why I said that. Let me be more specific. I have 3 friends that are always chasing distance. 2 them previously had Titleist TSi3's and the other friend had the latest version of the Callaway Rogue LS. Now they touted how going to those drivers they gained 5-6mph ball speed and and average of close to 10 yards during there fittings. Now they went to go get fitted for the new TSR and Paradym driver. Fancy shafts and all. They touted they gained an additional 3-4 mph ball speed and around 7-8 yards average distance gained. So roughly they gained on average, lets say 15 yards of distance. But yet, the 3 rounds we played in Phoenix, Arizona. We were all right next to each other. Mind you these guys are single handicappers. And they are pretty good players and ball strikers. At least in my opinion. The one thing they did gain was better dispersion. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[WristySwing]

1 hour ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

@WristySwingyou seem to be confused. Sorry I stated all my friends. I don't know why I said that. Let me be more specific. I have 3 friends that are always chasing distance. 2 them previously had Titleist TSi3's and the other friend had the latest version of the Callaway Rogue LS. Now they touted how going to those drivers they gained 5-6mph ball speed and and average of close to 10 yards during there fittings. Now they went to go get fitted for the new TSR and Paradym driver. Fancy shafts and all. They touted they gained an additional 3-4 mph ball speed and around 7-8 yards average distance gained. So roughly they gained on average, lets say 15 yards of distance. But yet, the 3 rounds we played in Phoenix, Arizona. We were all right next to each other. Mind you these guys are single handicappers. And they are pretty good players and ball strikers. At least in my opinion. The one thing they did gain was better dispersion. 

 

I'm just confused at the rampant amount of bad fitters out there.  I won't say I'm perfect but I'd say the vast majority of fits of mine see the same results they did in the fitting in my follow up emails.  As an example, out of 42 sales last year (started back fitting again in late June consistently, once per week), 41 of them all responded back positively that they were seeing the same, or very close to the same results outdoors on the course as they were indoors.  With the technology as good as it is these days, apart from a drastic change in someone's mechanics or flexibility from fit day to delivery, I find it very hard to believe unless you are not good at your job that the delivered club should not live up to the expectations set within the fit +/- a normal range of variation seen within a player's normal variation of play.  For instance, a 10cap doesn't go out and shoot exactly 10 over every round, right?  So we can't expect a driver that saw a 15 yard improvement to be exactly 15 yards longer every drive either, but the majority of them should be.

I feel bad for your friends that they continue to get duped by someone (or a group of someone's) who are not being honest or are achieving artificial gains by making a club suboptimal to get to that level (too low spin, deleting too many shots, ignoring accuracy, etc.).

Edited February 20, 2023 by WristySwing

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

17 hours ago, WristySwing said:

 

I'm just confused at the rampant amount of bad fitters out there.  I won't say I'm perfect but I'd say the vast majority of fits of mine see the same results they did in the fitting in my follow up emails.  As an example, out of 42 sales last year (started back fitting again in late June consistently, once per week), 41 of them all responded back positively that they were seeing the same, or very close to the same results outdoors on the course as they were indoors.  With the technology as good as it is these days, apart from a drastic change in someone's mechanics or flexibility from fit day to delivery, I find it very hard to believe unless you are not good at your job that the delivered club should not live up to the expectations set within the fit +/- a normal range of variation seen within a player's normal variation of play.  For instance, a 10cap doesn't go out and shoot exactly 10 over every round, right?  So we can't expect a driver that saw a 15 yard improvement to be exactly 15 yards longer every drive either, but the majority of them should be.

I feel bad for your friends that they continue to get duped by someone (or a group of someone's) who are not being honest or are achieving artificial gains by making a club suboptimal to get to that level (too low spin, deleting too many shots, ignoring accuracy, etc.).

First time was Club Champion. Second time was at Impact Golf. So maybe that would explain it. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[Red4282]

On 2/19/2023 at 6:42 AM, WristySwing said:

 

I'd disagree with this.  I see it every day in the fitting bay, someone comes in with a newer driver (last 5-6 years) and most of the time I can beat it out by at least 15 yards. For example, last week I got someone 40 yards with a Stealth2 Plus over their previously fitted 917D2.  I saw about 15 yards with TSR4 and much straighter vs. my fitted SIM.  I just want to go back and retest it first before I order one.  My coworker is seeing 5mph ball speed increases on their Paradym TD vs. their fitted Rogue Max LS from last year.  

 

The reality is, there are some people who no matter what you give them they aren't going to see an improvement.  These are usually the guys who cannot hit the middle of the club to save their lives and think throwing some cash at a new head or new shaft is going to take them from a 20 handicap to a 5.  They just lack the skillset presently to benefit from anything.  I had a guy in twice over the span of several months.  First time his average driver spin was <1500 with a 5* shut face and 12* dynamic loft.  He messages me and says he's been working with his coach and they got it figured out.  We pop him back in the bay and he's now 6* face open, constantly off the heel, 20* dynamic loft, and averaging 4000+ spin.  I had to send him home again to figure it out, his coach took him WAY too far in the other direction.  

 

There is no constant when it comes to improvement.  I've seen players who have a brand new club they literally took the wrapper off of that they were fit for and I can still get them an additional 15-20 yards.  Happened yesterday, a guy bought a new G430 Max 3 wood that he was fit for at a competitor shop in my city.  He's hitting these spinney slices with it.  Grabbed it, clicked it one degree lower, boom, instant low spin cut that starts right and falls a shade left of the green every time.  Instant 20 yard pickup as well.  You just have to know what to look for in the numbers to deduce what is causing the issue to solve it and hopefully improve on what needs to be fixed.

Not the right way to look at this. Efficiency has been maxed for 15+ years. No arguing that. Any distance gains are not “honest gains”. It was either a bad fit, a faulty head, or reducing spin to be a launch monitor queen, but no function on a course. If you want to argue forgiveness, you may have a better case there. But distance….Phoeey.

[WristySwing]

39 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Not the right way to look at this. Efficiency has been maxed for 15+ years. No arguing that. Any distance gains are not “honest gains”. It was either a bad fit, a faulty head, or reducing spin to be a launch monitor queen, but no function on a course. If you want to argue forgiveness, you may have a better case there. But distance….Phoeey.

Sure, it's been maxed out right in the middle of the head.  But you can't argue with a straight face that even a solid 5 handicap hits the exact middle every single time.  Drivers have gotten hotter further from the middle as well so the whole face is now an effective sweet spot.  That is where you are seeing your average number increases.  Further, shots further from the middle also have spin regulation much better as well.  Even on something with an incredibly small face to utilize, like an iron, was shown by 2nd Swing to have forgiveness spread out across the entire face so that spin, carry yardage, and dispersion were relatively uniform, within acceptable windows of variation, on many different strike locations.  The only big differences were if you had both vertical and horizontal misses going on at the same time.  I believe that you were very hot to trot on that in the i230 robot testing thread.  The i230, P790, and Apex '21 showed that as long as you catch it somewhere near the middle the dispersion and carry yard were roughly equal.  The Apex and the 790 saw large jumps from the dead middle, but outside of that were fairly static.

 

I can't believe you would believe that wholeheartedly (that the Ping was great in both distance dispersion and lateral dispersion) and accept that conclusion and then completely thumb your nose at the exact same technology just on a larger club head.  So Phooey to that idea, in my opinon.

[Red4282]

2 hours ago, WristySwing said:

Sure, it's been maxed out right in the middle of the head.  But you can't argue with a straight face that even a solid 5 handicap hits the exact middle every single time.  Drivers have gotten hotter further from the middle as well so the whole face is now an effective sweet spot.  That is where you are seeing your average number increases.  Further, shots further from the middle also have spin regulation much better as well.  Even on something with an incredibly small face to utilize, like an iron, was shown by 2nd Swing to have forgiveness spread out across the entire face so that spin, carry yardage, and dispersion were relatively uniform, within acceptable windows of variation, on many different strike locations.  The only big differences were if you had both vertical and horizontal misses going on at the same time.  I believe that you were very hot to trot on that in the i230 robot testing thread.  The i230, P790, and Apex '21 showed that as long as you catch it somewhere near the middle the dispersion and carry yard were roughly equal.  The Apex and the 790 saw large jumps from the dead middle, but outside of that were fairly static.

 

I can't believe you would believe that wholeheartedly (that the Ping was great in both distance dispersion and lateral dispersion) and accept that conclusion and then completely thumb your nose at the exact same technology just on a larger club head.  So Phooey to that idea, in my opinon.

Except thats not what you originally said. Even if thats what you meant thats still “phoeey”. I did a test last year, 3 drivers, about 50 balls each. The drivers were:

1) Cobra F speed driver (2005)

2) ping “g” (2016)

3) Taylormade Stealth Plus (2022)

 

The ping had the highest peak ball speed at 172. Stealth peaked at 169. 
Cobra 166.

 

misses

- ping- 162-165

stealth- 161-164

cobra had massive drop. 152-155.

 

 

The 6 year old driver was faster and more forgiving. Now the stealth edged it on distance by a hair ONLY because it spun less. Less spin is great for distance but bad for dispersion. In actuality the best thing you can do gain distance is keep your driver. The faces will get hotter over time.

 

Also, the iron argument is completely different because that is about different design philosophies and the goal is tight vertical dispersion. 

 

[jlevitt9]

$600 for a new Paradym or $300 for a minty rogue triple diamond ls that is 99%+ as good. Just can’t justify it. 

[nitram]

Golf has always been relatively expensive, and the price to play is what kept it relatively exclusive until 20 years ago. PING eye 2 irons were twice the price of every other manufacturer, yet they continue to be the best selling and most copied iron of all-time. I remember in 2002 when Taylor-Made introduced the R510TP with a Speeder 757 for a cool grand and they sold out! 2007 when Tour Edge introduced the CB2 Fairway for $350 without a premium shaft, and several other examples.

 

The current pricing will continue as is until the golfing world refuses to pay the sticker, and with several among us willing to pay more for a car than a home, I don't see many having to reduce the price.

[Tiger_Stud]

On 2/19/2023 at 9:27 AM, PlatinumNike said:

Went to the range and paid $30 for a large bucket

 

Jesus! We pay 2 EUR for 35 balls!

[WristySwing]

12 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Except thats not what you originally said. Even if thats what you meant thats still “phoeey”. I did a test last year, 3 drivers, about 50 balls each. The drivers were:

1) Cobra F speed driver (2005)

2) ping “g” (2016)

3) Taylormade Stealth Plus (2022)

 

The ping had the highest peak ball speed at 172. Stealth peaked at 169. 
Cobra 166.

 

misses

- ping- 162-165

stealth- 161-164

cobra had massive drop. 152-155.

 

 

The 6 year old driver was faster and more forgiving. Now the stealth edged it on distance by a hair ONLY because it spun less. Less spin is great for distance but bad for dispersion. In actuality the best thing you can do gain distance is keep your driver. The faces will get hotter over time.

 

Also, the iron argument is completely different because that is about different design philosophies and the goal is tight vertical dispersion. 

 

 

But again, that is you.  I'm not going to accept an arm chair, distanced hand wave of something I do almost every day and have done almost every day for the past 20 years because "well it didn't happen for me."  Congratulations, you found that you can play almost everything.  I have a track record of at least 1000 people who have seen noticeable improvements in distance and accuracy with new drivers.  So poo-poo on it all you want, but I have empirical evidence that I can happily provide from many fits from different speeds, swing mechanics, etc.  However, even that I know still wouldn't make you happy because you would write off as probably cherry picking data, lower spin, and so on.  I will share the fit I talked about before.  Keep in mind, I have never met this person before, I don't know the knowledge base of the fitter before them, I have no idea what their swing or delivery looked like before this.  Here is their fitted 917D2 with Rogue Max 65 9.5* stiff:

 

 

Avg 146 BS, 14.9* launch, 3361 spin, 42.8* descent angle, 224 carry, 56.3y standard deviation favouring the right side.

 

New fitted driver, Stealth 2+ 9*, fade weight, with a Tensei White 60:

 

 

Avg 152BS, 14.5* launch, 2092 spin, 38* descent angle, 264 carry, 26.7y dispersion favouring the right side.

 

Yes, I acknowledge this is only one person but it is the exact person I was talking about in my original post.  I must have pressed the magic "hit ball better and make ball go far" button between his driver and this one, right?  Surely the 6mph ball speed increase is all in my head right?  Right.

 

I see you pop up in every one of these posts and you are always so miserable and condescending about ball speed and distance.  If YOU personally think that it is shilling nonsense, then fine, go about your life and don't worry about it.  But there are people out there who do see verifiable gains, as my fit did, and they do follow up positively weeks to months later.  Sometimes I get it wrong, it happens.  We get back into the bay see what the issue is and fix it.  If it is a new head or new shaft, okay, fine, we cover it free of charge.  Cost of doing business.

 

 

 

 

 

[Red4282]

26 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

But again, that is you.  I'm not going to accept an arm chair, distanced hand wave of something I do almost every day and have done almost every day for the past 20 years because "well it didn't happen for me."  Congratulations, you found that you can play almost everything.  I have a track record of at least 1000 people who have seen noticeable improvements in distance and accuracy with new drivers.  So poo-poo on it all you want, but I have empirical evidence that I can happily provide from many fits from different speeds, swing mechanics, etc.  However, even that I know still wouldn't make you happy because you would write off as probably cherry picking data, lower spin, and so on.  I will share the fit I talked about before.  Keep in mind, I have never met this person before, I don't know the knowledge base of the fitter before them, I have no idea what their swing or delivery looked like before this.  Here is their fitted 917D2 with Rogue Max 65 9.5* stiff:

 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_02/image.png.371b44d266fe19f8daf87c6518e32b50.png

 

Avg 146 BS, 14.9* launch, 3361 spin, 42.8* descent angle, 224 carry, 56.3y standard deviation favouring the right side.

 

New fitted driver, Stealth 2+ 9*, fade weight, with a Tensei White 60:

 

/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/e7549045455b02c1e4dd55cd9c158750b835c990d012716c6b42e7ec2c92bbec/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_02/image.png.bae7d91a0b10d70db9c3af0f194a987a.png

 

Avg 152BS, 14.5* launch, 2092 spin, 38* descent angle, 264 carry, 26.7y dispersion favouring the right side.

 

Yes, I acknowledge this is only one person but it is the exact person I was talking about in my original post.  I must have pressed the magic "hit ball better and make ball go far" button between his driver and this one, right?  Surely the 6mph ball speed increase is all in my head right?  Right.

 

I see you pop up in every one of these posts and you are always so miserable and condescending about ball speed and distance.  If YOU personally think that it is shilling nonsense, then fine, go about your life and don't worry about it.  But there are people out there who do see verifiable gains, as my fit did, and they do follow up positively weeks to months later.  Sometimes I get it wrong, it happens.  We get back into the bay see what the issue is and fix it.  If it is a new head or new shaft, okay, fine, we cover it free of charge.  Cost of doing business.

 

 

 

 

 

Yea and 95% of those gains were spin reduction and 2 terrible swings bringing the averages for the 917 way down. At those speeds 2000 spin is not golf course numbers, sorry. Lol and “so miserable and condescending” excuse me, what? Ive just stated my opinion, and that is I disagree with you. It also bugs me with the resume drop as well. You sell golf clubs. Congratulations 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Red4282

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

@WristySwingSo let me correct myself from my previous post. There 2nd fitting was done at Impact Golf. Which is known to be a pretty good and reliable place for a fitting to be done. They purchased there driver through PGA superstore cause of unused credits. But that's besides the point. My question is as reputable as Impact Golf is. From a fitter to another fitter like yourself. What would make you say or question the fitting was bad? 

Edited February 21, 2023 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[WristySwing]

1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

Yea and 95% of those gains were spin reduction and 2 terrible swings bringing the averages for the 917 way down. At those speeds 2000 spin is not golf course numbers, sorry. Lol and “so miserable and condescending” excuse me, what? Ive just stated my opinion, and that is I disagree with you. It also bugs me with the resume drop as well. You sell golf clubs. Congratulations 

 

Again, says the guy who hasn't ever been a fitter, has made it very clear they think the industry is a load of crap, and is grumpy about every post that suggests someone might actually see a benefit in it.  I've been going and back forth with you for like 3 years now.  Don't play dumb that you don't jump into every thread where someone discusses that they are seeing some sort of gains from a fitted club or a debate about the advances of technology.  You do, and you always have the same boring, canned response that you think everything was in its hey day 10-15 years ago, you as a clearly outlier player with good mechanics at a +0.4 is going to singlehandedly take the blinders off the golf industry.  You guys are a dime a dozen.  I have been hanging around this forum for almost 20 years under several different names because I forgot the password on the other one.  Every few years someone like you pops up, rehashes the same dead horse arguments over and over, despite people who work with this stuff every day telling you it has changed materially and there are gains to be had if you can find the issues.  Then they disappear to go haunt another forum.  I see guys like you on /r/golf, local forums, and other famous world-wide forums.  

 

I clearly have too much time on my hands, so lets break down your post, shall we:

 

1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

Yea and 95% of those gains were spin reduction and 2 terrible swings bringing the averages for the 917 way down. 

 

Removing those two terrible swings gives us a ball speed average of 145.4.  The Stealth 2+ is 152 BS.  This gives us roughly 14-15 yards of extra carry.  Yes, lower spin does help carry yardage but not as much as you may think.  See this chart from Wishon (copied from Trackman) that shows lowering spin ~500 RPMs is equivalent to about 12 yards of carry at roughly the same ball speed (https://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TrackMan-Driver-Optimization_2010.pdf), which is corroborated by PING that shows at ~100mph swing speed and ~150mph BS, the optimal launch and spin for a player is 15* and 2300 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fping.com%2Fen-us%2Fblogs%2Fproving-grounds%2Foptimal-launch-and-spin&psig=AOvVaw2iwxd4jMPIZYUa4FIvJEBi&ust=1677080674752000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCMiVt8H6pv0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE).  Did we get there in the fitting, no, but we got darn close.

 

So we have 14 yards of carry due to the BS, ~25 yards due to the spin reduction, and we have two different sources saying that the player is close to optimized at these levels.  I am good with that.  Would I like to have seen them in a little more spin, absolutely.  But guess what can be done so easily that people forget it all the time.  They can just change golf balls.  A simple switch from a V1X to a V1 will do exactly what is needed without having to change a single thing about the head, it won't affect BS much if at all, and launch and stability will be exactly the same.  My garbage fit just turned into an optimal one so quickly, didn't it?

 

1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

It also bugs me with the resume drop as well. You sell golf clubs. Congratulations 

 

If that bugs you it must annoy the piss out of you every time you go to the doctors or the dentist and they have their 5 degrees hanging on the wall.  I did it to give what I am saying some clout.  I have been in this business longer than some on this forum have been alive.  I have seen the changes in golf club technology evolve over time.  I am not some random who just went to a GG or rented some time in the bay and hit a few shots and deemed something to be amazing or crap --- like a lot of people on this forum do.  I have evidence, across large sample sizes to show that technology HAS gotten better at improving ball speeds on average from prior gen to now.  I cannot say whether the prior gen was a horrible misfit or not because I don't know 99% of the people coming through the door before hand, either.

 

I have my educated opinion, and you have your opinion.  There are differences.  I could literally debate equipment evolution all day because I love golf and ton and can't get enough of this stuff.  If I am mistaken and you do have an educated opinion, i.e. work in the golf industry, have a degree in physics or engineering (like Tutelman does) and have done modelling that shows how this is not the case, then be my guest and share it.  I'd love to learn something.

Edited February 21, 2023 by WristySwing

[WristySwing]

54 minutes ago, I&#x27;_rather_be_golfing said:

@WristySwingSo let me correct myself from my previous post. There 2nd fitting was done at Impact Golf. Which is known to be a pretty good and reliable place for a fitting to be done. They purchased there driver through PGA superstore cause of unused credits. But that's besides the point. My question is as reputable as Golf Lab is in Utah From a fitter to another fitter like yourself. What would make you say or question the fitting was bad? 

 

You said none of them saw improvements from their old clubs to the new ones in real world situations.  That to me says that the fitter didn't do their job correctly and/or your friends were delivering the club significantly different on the fit day vs. their real life swings.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

7 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

You said none of them saw improvements from their old clubs to the new ones in real world situations.  That to me says that the fitter didn't do their job correctly and/or your friends were delivering the club significantly different on the fit day vs. their real life swings.

Would you agree that the fitting could have been manipulated?

[WristySwing]

18 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Would you agree that the fitting could have been manipulated?

 

No, I won't agree to that.  If you say the fitting place your friends went to is as good as it is, they have no need to manipulate the data.  Look --- the crux of the issue is a lot of people think fitting is some magic wand that is going to take their swing and find a club that fits their swing perfectly.  That I will absolutely agree is the biggest crock of **** the fitting/golf industry has ever concocted.  However, the good ones will never say that.  They will always skirt around that claim by saying they will fit you to a club that matches your delivery, but it is never a magic wand.  It will help you time it better, reduce your misses to one predictable miss, and can help get your ball flight into a better optimized window.

 

The golf masses latched onto this idea and ran with it that they could go in with their 6* over the top swing with a 9* open club face at impact, downward AoA heel bash and turn their 210 carry push slice into a 250 yard baby draw the middle.  I have turned away more than a handful of players to go and get lessons this year because they have unrealistic expectations and just have such poor face control mechanics that no matter what I give them, they are going to have the exact same issues.

 

The customer needs to have realistic expectations going into the fit to get something meaningful out of it.  If you come in and say "I want to hit it 300 every day" and mean it when you are at best a 250 yard avg joe then you are going to be disappointed time and again (provided there is not some insane outlier bad fit going on in the original club).  If you go into the fitting with an open mind that "hey I have this spot in my bag where I have a gap/a yardage that is always giving me trouble because I have a club or two that aren't reliable" I can work with that.  I can take that trouble club, like I did with my driver fit example above, and turned their massive two way miss (and those there were only the good strikes, I took out the 10 or so other drives where they skied it 110 yards, sliced it 150 yards off line or smother hooked it 120 yards carry and 90 yards left), into a semi-predictable push/cut for them.  Is that going to take them from a 13 'cap to a 4, no.  But it sure might help them drop into the single digits if they are not losing a ball every 3rd or 4th drive.  That to me is what fitting needs to gear itself towards, finding clubs that fit yardages the player need covered or ways to improve on trouble clubs in the bag so that they can have predictable misses that they can aim for when that important shot comes about.

 

Realistic expectations breed realistic results.  If you have someone claiming they are a wizard that can turn everything they touch into the best clubs on the planet for that person, run, run far away.  

Edited February 21, 2023 by WristySwing

[Red4282]

[PlatinumNike]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:43 AM, I&#x27;_rather_be_golfing said:

And you still handed over payment? Inflation must not be an issue for you then.

I hadn’t been to the driving range in a year so I survived. Still hurts. 

[PlatinumNike]

18 hours ago, Tiger_Stud said:

Jesus! We pay 2 EUR for 35 balls!

I’m in Phoenix, AZ during prime snowbird season (when the Canadians and northern Americans come down for the good weather) makes green fees and everything sky high.