Can't stop across the line at top of backswing

[verygoodcarl]

20 handicapper here: I had an existential crisis while on vacation after watching a video my wife took of my swing. It brought to my attention how across the line I get at the top, with a cupped wrist, little to no body turn, tons of arm runoff, and it looks like I have no width:

 

I've been trying to take corrective measures since then and landed on the no turn cast drill figuring it may be helpful for me. Even when I attempt this drill, it still looks like I come across the line at the top. I feel like the club is in more control at the top (less bounce / float load), but it still looks wrong. It also still feels like my first move down steepens the club instead of shallowing it. Video of me attempting this drill with a 7 iron:

 

Am I focusing on the correct thing, club being across the line at the top? Anything else I should be focusing on instead? Any advice for getting the shallowing move instead of steepening?

 

[verygoodcarl]

Thread bump with a practice video from the other night: 

 

 

This session I was trying to actively make my takeaway / backswing steeper and set my wrist hinge earlier hoping the club would shallow on the way down. It feels like my release looks stiff when I try to focus on hinging early in the backswing. It also looks like my hips are not open at all at impact. Are these things I should be focusing on?

[BraxtonFullerton]

You're standing up in your backswing.

 

Look at the moment you begin your swing by dropping your hands super low:

 

(This is your practice waggle)                                                                      (This is your real swing)

 

 

This immediately forces your club out away from your body.

 

Now look at where your hands are at impact:

 

 

Your shaft is drastically raised compared to setup/backswing and you've lost 3 inches of hip depth in needing to stand up to make room for the club head not to hit the mat 6 inches behind the ball.

 

We basically need to get you reversing your sequence. Stand up a little higher when addressing the ball (take a look at the angle your back is at during address) and then getting your hands lower during your swing than they were at address.

 

There's some other armsy/handsy stuff that's happening, but we need to fix your core first and the arms should sort themselves out as a result.

[verygoodcarl]

@BraxtonFullerton good stuff thank you!

 

I'm not sure how I can stand up further when addressing the ball, when I do the club just comes up off the ground. Should I be adding knee flex to get my back more vertical?

 

"getting your hands lower during your swing than they were at address" - any good drills or feels I should be thinking about to accomplish this?

[verygoodcarl]

Here’s me working on not standing up in my backswing / trying to maintain or create more hip depth: 

 

I feel like things look objectively worse (much steeper) when I try this. May give up attempting new swing tips and just go get a lesson in person.

Edited February 25, 2023 by verygoodcarl

[tthomasgolfer605]

You need to embrace this concept.  

 

[slytown]

You have a lot of hip rotation. Notice your straight right leg at the end of your backswing. Also, as you take the club back it comes, behind you, which forces it across the line at the end of your backswing. I would work on turning the hips less in the backswing and starting that club back from address in front of you.

 

Backswing drill: Put a headcover behind your ball. Keep your arms and club straight to start the backswing. Put the clubhead over the headcover. Then to complete the backswing, left the club. This would be called a one-piece takeaway.

 

 

[BraxtonFullerton]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:35 PM, verygoodcarl said:

I feel like things look objectively worse (much steeper) when I try this.

 

You're not any steeper than you were before; now you've just stopped the exaggerated handle drop at the start of your swing. Of course it's going to feel steeper, you're starting with your hands/shaft higher than before... This is going to help you be a little more consistent in your backswing and downswing...

Here's where you need to do some work:

 

  
 Rory at setup                                                                                            You at setup

 

 

  Rory at impact                                                      You, about to be at impact (pump that camera setting up to 60/120FPS)

 

If you take a look at setup you'll see you're actually very close to mimicking exactly what he's doing... only difference is, he's further from the ball. Your head is hovering directly over the ball with a 7i... that's going to make you steep on that alone... What we see that's most concerning is here at impact. Take a look at Rory's shoulders, torso, and hips.

He's rotating. His shoulders are opening, his hips are opening, his weight is very obviously forward and pulling his core out, away from the ball to the left. Allowing him to bring his hands through on plane and keeping his path correct through impact. You have broken your front elbow out towards the target and have no turn whatsoever to your shoulders and barely any in your hips until after contact is made:

 

So you have two compensations into impact, you either flip and close the face, maybe you time it right and hit a good one, maybe you hit a huge pull, or maybe you hit one straight...albeit high and short. OR you leave the face completely open and hit a high weak fade/slice.

 

You have to work those shoulders and hips open before impact or else you won't have room to get the shaft back on-plane.

[Z1ggy16]

Not a coach, or a pro... but I often have some similar faults so here's my .02

 

I've always struggled a little bit with across the line and I recently got a lesson to help correct it. This was with Scott Cowx - Only two things needed to correct it, at least for me:

 

- wrists need to work more horizontally (put your hands together out in front of your face like you're "praying", it's the movement of pure flexion/extension, your fingers will go from pointing up to 45* to the right) instead of vertically

 

- trail elbow needs to stay more in front of your body, when it starts to get away from your ribs it can be really easy to let it get on top, like here:

 

instead of:

 

Drill to help:

Use a Tour Striker ball or use a small fitness band and put it around your arms at the elbow crease. Swing with that on, doing 50% shots. Feel the wrists work more horizontally in the backswing... To see/feel it, stand up straight, hold the club our in front of you and just using the wrists, c0ck it back and forth just in that horizontal plane... not up and down like you'd hammer but purely left and right.

 

Again, YMMV, I'm not an expert swing coach or analyst but these are the things I'm doing to get my swing to look like Cam Champ while I work on getting more laid off and keeping my arms in front more. 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Not a coach, or a pro... but I often have some similar faults so here's my .02

 

I've always struggled a little bit with across the line and I recently got a lesson to help correct it. This was with Scott Cowx - Only two things needed to correct it, at least for me:

 

- wrists need to work more horizontally (put your hands together out in front of your face like you're "praying", it's the movement of pure flexion/extension, your fingers will go from pointing up to 45* to the right) instead of vertically

 

- trail elbow needs to stay more in front of your body, when it starts to get away from your ribs it can be really easy to let it get on top, like here:

 

instead of:

 

Drill to help:

Use a Tour Striker ball or use a small fitness band and put it around your arms at the elbow crease. Swing with that on, doing 50% shots. Feel the wrists work more horizontally in the backswing... To see/feel it, stand up straight, hold the club our in front of you and just using the wrists, c0ck it back and forth just in that horizontal plane... not up and down like you'd hammer but purely left and right.

 

Again, YMMV, I'm not an expert swing coach or analyst but these are the things I'm doing to get my swing to look like Cam Champ while I work on getting more laid off and keeping my arms in front more. 

+1 on the trail elbow position:



Your goal is to get the shaft matching up with the plane you establish at address (more on address later per what @BraxtonFullerton posted). Pay close attention to your right elbow and how little it moves initially, basically completely stationary for the first part of the downswing. At left arm parallel to the ground, every pro looks like this:



The shaft plane basically perpendicular to the spine angle. The problem is that with how you're addressing ball right now, achieving this position would cause you to swing right over it into a space about one club head further away. Start by giving yourself more room at address, shorten your backswing (start with what feels like 3/4" swings), and rehearse feeling your right elbow back in front of you. Doing this in front of a mirror can help.

[st1800e]

Seriously , You’re standing too close to the ball.  Stretch it out , you’ve got no room to move. 

[ezra76]

Hanger training aid works well for top of backswing. Best $$ I ever spent.

[k1enneth]

Hello, are you happy with your ball flight/shape?  Then ignore my next sentence…Next, in your backswing at parallel, I see the club inside which may explain being “across the line “ at the top .  If you draw the ball more than you want, you might want to open your stance a shade. A slight fade stance…. Good luck, I don’t mean to be critical, just observational. 

[verygoodcarl]

Wow this thread has been informative, thank you for the replies. My biggest takeaways were: 1. Stand further from the ball, and 2. Keep my right elbow in front of my chest / moving earlier in the downswing. I was trying to incorporate both of these thoughts in my practice today and it looks like the across the line is mostly gone, however, I'm still steep coming down from the top. I'm still not sure how to shallow it, or at least get the club on plane 🤔

 

 

 

 

[slytown]

Its looking better on the downswing. Remember, lag is a function of good path and sequencing. I wouldn't recommend actively trying to create shallow the club.

 

I think you know the feel for a good downswing sequence, but your club at the top is making that transition difficult. The biggest problem I see is your takeaway. Start the club head back more on the target line. You bring the club way behind you before you bring it to the top, which in physics forces the club across the line at the top.

 

Drill: Start the backswing by moving your chest back with your arms out straight. Once the club moves behind the target line, then you can lift the club up as you complete your back turn. Here is another video. Hope it helps.

 

 

[Valtiel]

On 3/9/2023 at 3:13 PM, verygoodcarl said:

My biggest takeaways were: 1. Stand further from the ball, and 2. Keep my right elbow in front of my chest / moving earlier in the downswing.

Correct.

 

Quote

 I was trying to incorporate both of these thoughts in my practice today and it looks like the across the line is mostly gone, however, I'm still steep coming down from the top. I'm still not sure how to shallow it, or at least get the club on plane 🤔

That's where you're going to start fighting feel vs. real, because your right elbow movement didn't really change:



Everything needs to move together and your hands are moving almost 3x as much as right elbow in transition. The club will always come down steep if you leave your right elbow behind, there is no shallowing without that initial sync up:



Also as a side note both your 7i and PW swings are much too long. You're are full parallel with both:



That would be a more typical full 7i length swing, and slightly shorter for a PW.

[verygoodcarl]

Tour striker smart ball arrived in the mail today, we'll see if it can aid with the right elbow issue.

[RoyalTroon]

On 3/13/2023 at 7:35 PM, verygoodcarl said:

Tour striker smart ball arrived in the mail today, we'll see if it can aid with the right elbow issue.

 

Could have saved some money by doing right arm only swing drills.  Almost everybody does the drill instinctively well- which is when the trail forearm gains on the elbow going back using an Abe Mitchell description.     Here Elkington talks about this with Jay Hass, and Elk calls it a flip of the elbow- same thing, different descriptions.  This is a good trail arm goal, which swings, or moves on or within,  the sagittal plane, not the coronal plane which you tend to do.  About 1:17 forward.

 

https://www.secretgolf.com/videos/vintage-vault/full-swing/full-swing--steve-elkington/elk-and-jay-haas-talk-golf-swing-

Edited March 18, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[verygoodcarl]

Latest update, had an online lesson with the golf WRX lord and savior Monte. Biggest improvement he has me focusing on is the way my right hip moves in the backswing, along with me setting up further from the ball. I still have some head lift / loss of butt depth in the backswing that I need to work on, but I feel like things are looking better? New problem that I have is that I’m hitting MASSIVE straight blocks out to the right on the golf course, like due to these changes I’ve made.

 

 

[slytown]

2 hours ago, verygoodcarl said:

Latest update, had an online lesson with the golf WRX lord and savior Monte. Biggest improvement he has me focusing on is the way my right hip moves in the backswing, along with me setting up further from the ball. I still have some head lift / loss of butt depth in the backswing that I need to work on, but I feel like things are looking better? New problem that I have is that I’m hitting MASSIVE straight blocks out to the right on the golf course, like due to these changes I’ve made.

 

 

 

If you can shorten the hip and shoulder rotation in the backswing , you'll be in a great place. I know bad habits are hard to break, but until u break it, its gonna be hard to improve

[BraxtonFullerton]

I like the new swing a bit more. But you're still over-rotating and it makes it hard for you to maintain balance, posture, and all the other good things that you're working on.

You don't need to feel like you're going 100% at a 7i. Feel like you're going 85% and you're going to find that the shorter, more compact, swing is going to help you make better contact, give you better control, and just about as much distance as these full over-rotating swings do.

[verygoodcarl]

I've been grinding on my early extension in the backswing problem, and it feels WAY harder to fix than it should in my opinion. I bought a net for the backyard, been filming myself, and doing chair drills, head on the wall drills, golf club under right heel drill etc. I can make my body move the way I want it to on film, but I cannot hit a quality golf shot while doing so. I'm convinced it's a set up issue, in that, I'm setting up too bent over or my armpits are too far out over my feet so when I swing the club I naturally want to get in balance by standing up. When I try to set up further away from the ball as recommended, it feels VERY uncomfortable. Like, I simply can't reach the handle of the club and have the sole of the club sit on the ground properly.

 

This leads me to believe that perhaps my irons don't fit me correctly. They're standard length and lie angle. I'm 6'-2" and my wrist to floor measurement is 37". Ping and Callaway static length / lie charts have me at 2-3 degrees upright with an extra 1/2" of length. Is it worth shipping my irons back to Callaway to have them adjusted?

[BraxtonFullerton]

Just seeing your last update here... yes, that may be worth it. It might be easier to visit a local shop (or even a course with a good pro shop) to see if they can bend them and toss in an extender under the grip for you to test with.

If you're unorthodox in size, getting fit is almost always a great idea to help you focus on mechanics instead of doubting your equipment.