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USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition


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3 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I was repeating verbatim what the head of the USGA or RA said on an interview today on. Golf central.  His words not mine 
 

If you are asking me - We all get to decide what ball fits our game.

 

Did you like what he said?  How he said it?  If not then why repeat it?

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Just now, bekgolf said:

 

Three to nine yards is a big deal and a huge variance no matter what the USGA HC Index is.

 

In basic terms it's a miss from 9 to 27 feet!  Your playing partners will notice this when playing unless they aren't playing for score.

Sort of.  It’s not a miss, is an extra club since in theory you are accounting for it.  

 Daily changes to the tee boxes and pin positions likely have a greater variability day to day.

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Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

Sort of.  It’s not a miss, is an extra club since in theory you are accounting for it.  

 Daily changes to the tee boxes and pin positions likely have a greater variability day to day.

 

Lol!

 

Golfers don't know or account for changes to tee markers or pin positions?  If it was that simple we wouldn't be discussing a brand new ball rule to limit distance.

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1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Man, the question was asked.  I shared directly what the response was from the USGA or RA (who the question was directed at). Not much more to it than that.
 

 

 

 

Thanks for playing.  Thanks for redirecting back to the USGA statement from today.  Circular.

 

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Just now, bekgolf said:

 

Lol!

 

Golfers don't know or account for changes to tee markers or pin positions?  If it was that simple we wouldn't be discussing a brand new ball rule to limit distance.

I’m not saying that.  I’m saying a hole playing length changes based on tee and pin position daily.  Likely around 5-10 yards.  Golfers do account for this, just like they can & will account for a 5-10 yard decrease in distance if that happens with the rollback. 

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12 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

Same as always, we scope the pin and adjust.

 

I'm not an elite player, I don't want my game being changed because a few elites think everyone hits it too far.  I like golf the way it is, it's fun, so why does an appointed (non elected) person feel that I need to change?  Why do they think they need to solve a problem that is non existent?

All fair points.
 

 Im not elite either.  My perspective is a bit different.  Golf is fun to me.  Losing less than 15 yards on my drives is not going to impact my enjoyment of the game.  I understand not every shares that perspective. 

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27 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

FYI:  TLDR is the synopsis for a too long to read rambling text.  Put the TLDR after the long rambling text and put an easy to read synopsis after the TLDR.

 

Thank You.

Ha! Well thanks for that, but I know what TL;DR technically means. I fear I have a slightly notorious reputation here for sometimes writing posts that resemble magazine articles more than short discussion group comments. Some appear to like them. Others (quite vocally and often humorously) don't. So I've taken to starting long ones with a TL;DR instead of appending it at the end, as way way of saying "this will torture you if you get irritated at long stuff, so don't bother". Sort of a courtesy. 

 

But your suggestion is good - in fact, something like the model of British tabloids. A synopsis (though at the beginning, not the end). Read the UK Sun, or Daily Mail, or the Guardian. Will often  start with four or five bullet points, that then get explored in greater depth in the article. 

 

Have to think about that. Thx.

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On 3/15/2023 at 1:49 AM, idrive said:

 

Haven't read the last few pages so don't know if this has been mentioned.

 

Why not just have a "Pro Only" driver - FW's.  Reduce the COR so the ball flight distance is reduced to whatever # they're trying to achieve?

 

Learning the distances of two different balls is just silly. IMO

 

Question - who's going to make the ball? Can't possibly be in the best interest of every golf ball mfg. to make a tour ball. There's no way they would sell enough of them to make it worth their while.

First the pros only, 2030 for the rest as well

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5 hours ago, maamold said:

Meh.

 

I'll be drying my eyes off while I book easier to get tee-times.

Yes !  This is the bright spot.  Maybe it erases the covid surge.  I haven’t been able to play 9 after work in 3 years.  I used to be able to just show up , wave at the pro shop and walk on the tee.   And never be bothered.  But I don’t hold out much hope.  The music listeners who are crowding the course aren’t likely to care about a ball rollback. I don’t think the rules are a major concern for them.  They won’t care until the actual rollback ball is all they can buy.  And looking 4 year into the future in todays world climate is virtually impossible.  We live day to day at best.  4 years from now seems like a day that won’t exist.  

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16 hours ago, PowderedToastMan said:

Remember the outrage when the USGA outlawed box grooves? Everyone on here was livid. So was everyone on tour. Next to no one cares about this anymore. It was essentially forgotten within the year it was implemented. I believe this ball change will be exactly the same. The best in the world will be given a ball in late 2025, dial it in with their GCQuads and play it with no discernable difference in 2026. They'll hit a 6 iron instead of a 7 iron into a short par 5. It will make the game statistically harder for the pros, but barely, half a stroke over the course of a season maybe. 

 

For the best players in the world, the v groove change was a slight nuisance that makes the game slightly harder from the rough. We don't even care about it anymore. It actually makes golf on TV more interesting because sometimes players will hit those monster flyers out of the rough. I think this ball change will be much the same in how it impacts the game-very little. The average golfer is not going to notice this change. I'm sure they'll be like "I USED TO HIT IT 300 ON THIS HOLE" while everyone else in the group knows that person hit it 300 once and it smashed the cart path. 

 

The USGA will be coming for driver size next. 460 cc drivers will be things the next generation sees in pawn shops and dumpsters come 2040. 

The USGA will never take away the 460 cc driver from the recreational player.  They didn't want to hurt the recreational player with the ball roll back, but the OEM's and PGA Tour insisted on one ball for all players.  If the USGA do something about the driver, it will be a MLR, intended to the very elite.

 

And if you are an elite amateur, and want to play in a qualifier for the US Open, you will have to buy or be given a conforming driver.  Sort of like picking up another fairway wood.

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16 minutes ago, gvogel said:

The USGA will never take away the 460 cc driver from the recreational player.  They didn't want to hurt the recreational player with the ball roll back, but the OEM's and PGA Tour insisted on one ball for all players.  If the USGA do something about the driver, it will be a MLR, intended to the very elite.

 

And if you are an elite amateur, and want to play in a qualifier for the US Open, you will have to buy or be given a conforming driver.  Sort of like picking up another fairway wood.

Actually they did want to hurt the amateur player but the industry pushed back and this they proposed the MLR. The tour and the PGA of America pushed back on that so instead of leaving a game that is healthy alone the ruling bodies got mad and said cool we are going back to the original plan and will hurt the amateur golfer because we don’t like the pro tours and their promotion of distance and low scores.

 

Like with many other decisions the ruling bodies are the bad guys 

 

i believe this is the reason @clevited stated your financial bias. You are anti big OEMs and thing their financial interests are ruining the game by making it easier and removing skills from the pros. You think the only way to show skills is to have long irons into par 4s like your idols did or to not be able to reach par 5s in 2.

 

This blindness prevent you from seeing it takes skill to hit the ball far, the pros have skills throughout the bag. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be winning against fields that are much deeper with talent in a weekly basis than they ever were. Your bias takes away from the work and effort these pros put into their game in a daily basis.

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7 hours ago, bekgolf said:

Same as always, we scope the pin and adjust.

 

I'm not an elite player, I don't want my game being changed because a few elites think everyone hits it too far.  I like golf the way it is, it's fun, so why does an appointed (non elected) person feel that I need to change?  Why do they think they need to solve a problem that is non existent?

Because they seem to think that we have to fix a problem that our grandkids might have 50 years from now.  The most ridiculous thing that I've heard this year......😂

 

I think that the top brass is trying to justify their position......

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7 hours ago, maamold said:

Meh.

 

I'll be drying my eyes off while I book easier to get tee-times.

 

Lol.  The ruling bodies are supposed to be stewards of the game.  Growing it is a big part of their job.  They essentially did nothing to achieve their desires regarding a roll back while simultaneously pissing off a significant number of people.  That is not being good stewards of the game.

Edited by clevited
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Feels like a lot is still going to happen in the next 4-6 years. As many have pointed out, the USGA and R&A are incessant on forcing their “out of touch” approach. What was it, 90% or so against this/didn’t think distance was an issue in the USGA’s own poll? Creating a solution to a problem that isn’t there is 💩 governance. I still believe this all because of 19 holes. The R&A have been outspoken on St Andrews becoming obsolete; along with hole 13 at Augusta.
 

And those that are saying that the new rule won’t change much…then why even change it? 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Yes !  This is the bright spot.  Maybe it erases the covid surge.  I haven’t been able to play 9 after work in 3 years.  I used to be able to just show up , wave at the pro shop and walk on the tee.   And never be bothered.  But I don’t hold out much hope.  The music listeners who are crowding the course aren’t likely to care about a ball rollback. I don’t think the rules are a major concern for them.  They won’t care until the actual rollback ball is all they can buy.  And looking 4 year into the future in todays world climate is virtually impossible.  We live day to day at best.  4 years from now seems like a day that won’t exist.  

Sorry Blade, the USGA is able to look 50 years into the fuure..... 🤣🤣

----------------------------

I will say this though, I find it hard to walk on the course like I use to....the course be packed nowdays.....

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7 hours ago, bobfoster said:

TL;DT Initial reaction to the first reading of the actual rule (we've been speculating for a few days, but it was finally published today). 

 

Have thought about this today, now that the rule itself has been released. Actually will have less effect than I originally thought. We've been talking (here on WRX for the past few days) about the pros losing 15 yards on the drive. Turns out it is more like 9 - 11 (with amateurs losing even less). 

 

[Note that one of the more interesting things that was new today - at least to me - was that the new testing standard didn't just change Iron Byron from 120 to 125 MPH, they also lowered the spin rate from 2520 to 2200, but increased test loft from 10* to 11* ... fascinating.]

 

So assessing the likely personal effects goes something like this. I'm probably - on that chart - somewhere between the average male amateur, and LPGA, i.e., likely to lose 5 - 7 yards of distance on my average drive. I'm not a great golfer, but a decent one. Been playing for quite a few years (decades). No longer a big hitter (SS on good days probably low 90s), now usually play from the whites not the tips, but still usually shoot high 70s - low 80s. Age related diminishment in distance (that is inevitable) has been mitigated by much better course management (I rarely ever try the dumb things I did when I was younger - I'll take my medicine on an errant shot and play for bogey instead of trying a miraculous recovery and risking a triple - a quiet discipline that comes with age), and a greatly increased focus on the short game. Obsessively practice with my putter and wedges. Having a solid game from 100 yards in can compensate for a lot. And from 100 in, limitations on ball distance mean nothing - I'm rarely taking a full swing on anything anyway. The cover of the ball means a lot more than the inner core ... which isn't even going to activate if I'm trying to pinch a stop-hop-roll with a 1/4 swing from 15 yards out

 

Further, however, even off the tee, a 5 - 7 yard distance differential is actually within my "statistical margin of error" when it comes to my "average" drive. The driver has by far the greatest variance in dispersion, in terms of both distance and direction. I probably average 240 or so (being honest here - I'm not a 300+ "normal WRXer"). But on any given day, that can easily mean drives that go 230 (with an ugly slice) or 250 (if I nut it). I'm certainly not just a weekender - so I rarely hit it off the heel or toe, almost never top it or need to invoke the infield fly rule. But the "perfect" swing, with the right swing plane, the right lag and full release, making contact square and center face ... comes maybe once every round or two. Even for the pros. Point is, if the new ball is going to cut my average distance by 6 yards, contact is still going to be a greater determining variable than the ball when it comes to any individual drive.

 

So my first impression of a variance that small is that the majority of golfers aren't going to notice any effect at all (which is what Rory said). The average male round is the high 90s. Only 45% of golfers will even break 100. Only about 25% can break 90 with any regularity. For these people, i.e., most casual golfers, the ball itself (in fact, all the equipment - ball, driver and shaft) is going to mean considerably less to their game than the inconsistency of the swing. I thought the same thing about the wedge rule. All sorts of people yelling about how it would penalize amateurs just to limit the few elites. But really, how much did it actually penalize average golfers? Does the difference between a U and V groove really matter to a guy who's biggest challenge is not chunking their wedge, or blading it across the green?

 

And even for someone at my level (a used to be good but now still tolerable golfer), 6 yards really isn't that much, it is just another of several variables. As others have pointed out, it is not uncommon for tee boxes to move that much even on an average weekend. Am I really going to be devastated and complaining and needing to adjust my entire game if the whites got moved back by the blues by an irritable groundskeeper last weekend? No - I'll probably just say to my buddies "geez, tees are a little back today" and go about my normal business. Happened on a par three last weekend in fact. Tees were way up on Saturday (this course moves them up for outings, because a lot of once-a-year guys play in them), but got moved unusually back on Sunday. So about 145 on Saturday, 160ish on Sunday. Not a 6 yard difference, but almost triple that. And it was no big deal. Just normal golf. We all are used to this on courses we regularly play, no? You adjust. Take an extra club. 

 

Even further? I just changed driver shafts (like, last week). Splurged and went from a CK Pro Blue to a Ventus TR with an extra .5" length. Am amazed. Only hit it in my backyard (into a field) and played one round, but it easily added 8+ yards so far as my initial impression goes (and, weirdly, actually goes straighter - costs a bit, but so worth it). 

 

Bigger picture? Anyone that wants to be outraged by any new USGA rule can easily find reasons to be. In fact, being outraged by changes to USGA rules is a long and honored golf tradition!

 

But for me, in practice, I find this somewhat trivial within the context of all the different variables that affect my game. I suspect it is actually going to have zero effect on my actual scores. Or rather, it will just be one of many minor things that affect scores, like different tee boxes, or weather or wind or temperature or humidity, or elevation, (or even whether I stayed out late drinking the night before for goodness sake). And I'd be willing to bet you'll see no difference at all in the scores even on the PGAT. 

 

Bottom line opinion (and only my opinion)? This is a minor change I'll have no problem adjusting to, and won't affect my scores at all. 

 

I think this is a perfectly reasonable take that puts the changes into perspective. For that reason, I think your thoughts will get completely ignored and the golfing world will carry on being enraged.

 

I am not as talented a writer, but I hope I am able to add to the discussion. After listening to the explanation of the testing methodology, I believe that there is grounds for the decision that was made. The ball speed, launch angle, and spin rates of the test are historically selected based off the launch conditions of the longest hitters on tour. The parameters of the ball test have not been updated in 20 years. During that time, the longest hitters on tour now swing faster, launch the ball higher, and spin the ball less than 2004. The new parameters better reflect the launch conditions of the modern (2023) game.

 

Therefore, the 2004 ball testing parameters no longer represent the inputs they are supposed to. The biggest, most important piece of information revealed by the USGA/R&A is that the launch conditions for the test are not arbitrary. The ruling bodies didn't say "we are going to roll the ball back an arbitrary amount because we want the game to be regressive". What they ARE saying is that they have established distance standards since 1977, and that it occasionally needs updating as the inputs become outdated. In my opinion, it's MORE REGRESSIVE to not update a testing standard when the inputs no longer mean what they are supposed to. 

 

The uproar pro/against the decision seems to be more rooted in emotional, abstract appeals and platitudes over actual rational appeals and an actual understanding of the testing procedure. If perhaps there is a flaw with the whole procedure, and it's time for a new one, that would be a completely different discussion.

 

The whole discussion has been strange from the sense that the vast majority of golfers want to play conforming equipment. Yet, on the same hand these same people seem very upset that the governing bodies are doing their job, and are using data to support their decisions. No governing body is perfect, yet it seems even when approaching a subject with a rational approach, nobody is happy. There is such a level of distrust in all institutions that it's clouding people's judgement.

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9 hours ago, bekgolf said:

Same as always, we scope the pin and adjust.

 

I'm not an elite player, I don't want my game being changed because a few elites think everyone hits it too far.  I like golf the way it is, it's fun, so why does an appointed (non elected) person feel that I need to change?  Why do they think they need to solve a problem that is non existent?

So would you have been ok if the USGA simply put a cap at today's technology and prohibited changes/inprovements going forward? 

Did you like golf 5, 10, 20, etc years ago? What if they capped the tech back then?

 

Fwiw, I think capping tech would result in less R & D, less advertising about newer and better and more commodity like pricing. Most players would end up spending less on equipment and those using 5+ year old equipment wouldn't be at a disadvantage. Players could still practice, train and improve their abilities like they have in basketball and other sports. How many ads for basketballs do you see during an NBA game (or ads for footballs during those broadcasts)? Pretty sure it's fewer than golf ball ads, but there are still shoe and other commercials. How many NBA, NFL & pro Soccer/Football players get paid to endorse a particular ball? Not sure about tennis players...

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      Nick Hardy - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Seamus Power - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Hadwin - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Kurt Kitayama - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nicolai Hojgaard - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JT Poston - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Alex Smalley - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      The course was closed all day today (Monday) because of rain so no WITBs today
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #3
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #4
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #5
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Gary Woodland - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chris Gotterup - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ludvig Aberg - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Max Homa - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chan Kim - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Michael Block - SoCal PGA Section champ - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Collin Morikawa - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ryan Fox - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Robert MacIntyre - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Griffin - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Matthieu Pavon - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jason Day WITB – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger WITB – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New 2Thumb grip - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chesson Hadley's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Kohles' new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Vincent Whaley's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ryo Hisatsune's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Charley Hoffman - custom Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      TaylorMade Tour X - X3 putter with milled metal insert - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Maverick McNealy's custom Odyssey staff bag - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Baller's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      New LA Golf single bend graphite putter shaft - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf's - Channel 4 Headcovers - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf 120-gram prototype putter shaft – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf "gold edition" driver shaft – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf prototype putters with new "exotic metal" face insert – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 11 replies

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