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USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition


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5 minutes ago, physasst said:

Did anyone else get a little bit of a chill with the foreshadowing about them tackling the driver next? They call it “driver creep”, but I suspect they’re going to significantly change the COR around the drivers. That may have even more of an impact than the ball.
 

M

Yep. I’m just starting to get to read on that.  The ball might be the Trojan horse , to distract from the driver death blow !  
 

I hope so.  Man I’m in a mood.  Might be best I go hit some balls or something.  😂

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44 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I will give a counter to your counter point.

 

As has been stated many times, maximum distance has been effectively capped on tour for many years.  There have been tons of players over the years that can average far beyond 320 yards off the tee but they don't.  Why you might ask?  Because the longer you hit it, the longer it is in the air and the less control you have even if you hit it on your intended line.  You can't control how much it rolls, you can't control which way it bounds when it hits and you can't control wind gusts or the wind in general.  

 

This roll back does nothing to cap distance in any way, shape or form.  The top distance guys on tour will swing a bit harder as Sasho Mckenzie has said (something I have been saying this entire thread), and the guys that have room to grow, will (whether that be through getting faster or optimizing for better launch conditions). 

 

Any roll back just creates even more importance for distance.  It means the old guard on tour will fade away and even more athletic specimens will be on tour.  The ultimate representation of this would be a field full of Kyle Berkshire body types.  Very tall, extremely strong, insanely fast and with control.  You create the need for distance when you roll it back where as if you leave things as they are, the need diminishes naturally.  

Wouldn't this be a good thing?  If they can chip and putt. 

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Five more years of people arguing about whether a distance reduction is needed?  

 

Take a deep breath, enjoy golf as a hobby, and look forward to lots of fun tech developments over the coming years.  Each OEM will try something different, lots of R&D, and I'm betting some things happen to driver heads too at the elite level.  The Youtube reviewer space is going to be fun.  

Edited by subrew
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9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. I’m just starting to get to read on that.  The ball might be the Trojan horse , to distract from the driver death blow !  
 

I hope so.  Man I’m in a mood.  Might be best I go hit some balls or something.  😂


to be honest, I would’ve been more in favor of a driver rollback than a ball rollback. The driver rollback only affects one club in the bag, the ball rollback will affect all of your clubs to some degree.

 

M

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2 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Wouldn't this be a good thing?  If they can chip and putt. 

 

From my perspective, I am fine with that.  From the USGA's perspective, it is antithesis to what they desire.  They want less emphasis on distance not more.  You also undoubtedly will increase the frequency of injury on tour and in elite level golf which I think would be less than desirable to stewards of the game. 

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1 minute ago, physasst said:


to be honest, I would’ve been more in favor of a driver rollback than a ball rollback. The driver rollback only affects one club in the bag, the ball rollback will affect all of your clubs to some degree.

 

M

Agree.  And if they just go major size reduction, you can still get close to same distance with center strike.  But you won’t see long drive swings as a rule , if a few mm miss loses 4/5 mph ballspeed and goes offline.  They’ll revert right back to 1992 style driving.  Maybe with added maximizing via a monitor.    

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11 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. I’m just starting to get to read on that.  The ball might be the Trojan horse , to distract from the driver death blow !  
 

I hope so.  Man I’m in a mood.  Might be best I go hit some balls or something.  😂

I think you are on to something.  But I do believe they are trying to minimize the impact to average golfers so I have hope. 
 

I’ve heard driver advancements being dismisses on this thread.  There’s been a couple recent videos (Rick Shiels and I think 2nd swing) where they compare a late 90s/early 2000s driver to a modern driver.  Ricks a decent golf and I “think” teaching pro at one point.  The 2nd swing video uses two d1 golfers both north of 115mph, with one getting up to 125mph.


 Rick had decent dispersion with the older driver but lost over 20 yards even though he swung the old driver a mph faster.  The d1 elite golfers lost more than 20 yards and the high speed player lost about 40 and couldn’t keep it on the planet (his modern driver was getting him  about 330 on average and good dispersion).  This is all using the same, modern ball. 

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4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree.  And if they just go major size reduction, you can still get close to same distance with center strike.  But you won’t see long drive swings as a rule , if a few mm miss loses 4/5 mph ballspeed and goes offline.  They’ll revert right back to 1992 style driving.  Maybe with added maximizing via a monitor.    

 

What?  And also, if talking literal long drive swings ala Daly, you would be wrong.  Longer swings with upward angle of attack do not mean inconsistency.  

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1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

I am going to push back on this quite a bit.  You said the same people wanting to use conforming equipment are "upset that the governing bodies are doing their job".  They are upset because A) there is objectively no problem and B) the ruling bodies spent millions, created all kinds of hoopla and controversy, making big claims about the golf industry and how sustainable it is and then do what?  Practically nothing.  The principle of that alone is absolutely rage inducing for a lot of people.  Why go through all of that trouble, cost, stirring of the pot just to accomplish nothing that pertains to your stated goals?  This governing body has objectively botched many attempts to control the tour when the tour has no interest in being controlled.  The distrust in the ruling bodies is due to their out of touch endeavors like anchoring ban, groove rules and 46 inch MLR and now this. 

Well said, anyone that thinks that this issue is about 3 or 5 yards alone, hasn't been paying attention.

 

It's mainly about the USGA/RA Pissing on our leg and telling us that it's raining outside.

 

Change for the sake of change is never a good idea.

 

*If anyone is offended by my metaphor, I apologize in advance........

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I think you are on to something.  But I do believe they are trying to minimize the impact to average golfers so I have hope. 
 

I’ve heard driver advancements being dismisses on this thread.  There’s been a couple recent videos (Rick Shiels and I think 2nd swing) where they compare a late 90s/early 2000s driver to a modern driver.  Ricks a decent golf and I “think” teaching pro at one point.  The 2nd swing video uses two d1 golfers both north of 115mph, with one getting up to 125mph.


 Rick had decent dispersion with the older driver but lost over 20 yards even though he swung the old driver a mph faster.  The d1 elite golfers lost more than 20 yards and the high speed player lost about 40 and couldn’t keep it on the planet (his modern driver was getting him  about 330 on average and good dispersion).  This is all using the same, modern ball. 

 

It would be very interesting to see what the manufacturers could do with a clubhead the same size as was in use in the early 90s, but with as much modern technology as they can squeeze into it. I'd think the club manufacturers would be pretty happy about a driver rollback. Would enable them to start over on the improvements rather than what is probably mostly cosmetic changes now. 

 

I'd be fine with a change in drivers where I'm pretty anti a change in the ball. If I can still hit a center strike drive the same distance, but the punishment for missing the middle is increased, I'm all for that. They should ban hybrids and make people play long irons too.

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3 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

It would be very interesting to see what the manufacturers could do with a clubhead the same size as was in use in the early 90s, but with as much modern technology as they can squeeze into it. I'd think the club manufacturers would be pretty happy about a driver rollback. Would enable them to start over on the improvements rather than what is probably mostly cosmetic changes now. 

 

I'd be fine with a change in drivers where I'm pretty anti a change in the ball. If I can still hit a center strike drive the same distance, but the punishment for missing the middle is increased, I'm all for that. They should ban hybrids and make people play long irons too.

I hear you.

 

Respectfully. making drivers smaller and more punishing for missing the middle while be order of magnitude more impactful to the average to high handicap golfer than a ball change they reduces their distance 3-7 yards 

Edited by Pnwpingi210
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18 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I think you are on to something.  But I do believe they are trying to minimize the impact to average golfers so I have hope. 
 

I’ve heard driver advancements being dismisses on this thread.  There’s been a couple recent videos (Rick Shiels and I think 2nd swing) where they compare a late 90s/early 2000s driver to a modern driver.  Ricks a decent golf and I “think” teaching pro at one point.  The 2nd swing video uses two d1 golfers both north of 115mph, with one getting up to 125mph.


 Rick had decent dispersion with the older driver but lost over 20 yards even though he swung the old driver a mph faster.  The d1 elite golfers lost more than 20 yards and the high speed player lost about 40 and couldn’t keep it on the planet (his modern driver was getting him  about 330 on average and good dispersion).  This is all using the same, modern ball. 

 

There are variables here not being considered.  Even back then, there was "fitting" you could do to get the most out of a club it was just harder to come by for more people and in my opinion, that was an unfair reality.  Rick was hitting a 10 degree driver which was higher loft than his ping.  Rick is not tour pro caliber by any means and so would miss middle more often but even then, he did very well with it.  Spin and ball speed were his two issues, both of which would have been helped by using a lower loft version of the same head to achieve much more comparable results.  I have no doubt the Ping would have still beaten it due in part to it being familiar to Rick, a little more forgive for his level of ball striking, and being a lower spin design but I would be willing to bet money it wouldn't be 20 yards.  Would be at most 10 if I were to make an educated guess.

Edited by clevited
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1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

There are variables here not being considered.  Even back then, there was "fitting" you could do to get the most out of a club it was just harder to come by for more people and in my opinion, unfair.  Rick was hitting a 10 degree driver which was higher loft than his ping.  Rick is not tour pro caliber by any means and so would miss middle more often but even then, he did very well with it.  Spin and ball speed were his two issues, both of which would have been helped by using a lower loft version of the same head to achieve much more comparable results.  I have no doubt the Ping would have still beaten it due in part to it being familiar to Rick, a little more forgive for his level of ball striking, and being a lower spin design but I would be willing to bet money it wouldn't be 20 yards.  Would be at most 10 if I were to make an educated guess.

You could be right.  Ricks also stated his current driver probably isn’t the best fit most optimal for him. Maybe he could get those 10 extra yards with an optimal fit too?  These are all hypothetical things we can attribute some arbitrary number we “think” or “feel” is right, but it does not make them right.

 

Here are the facts.  
he hit the old driver 20 yards less

It wasn’t a scientific experiment controlling all other variables beside driver head.

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44 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

You know.   Most of this is hilarious.  I don’t know why.  But I read and laugh.  It’s really a funny thing.  All that build up , and they deliver the most flaccid response possible. And I cannot figure out why? Is it a cowardly response , hoping diplomacy will be well received?   Volumes have been written about what happens to the lukewarm.  They’re universally hated . Nobody respects indecision. 
 

and to hear Whan wax poetic about the process , while the gentleman slumbers , lumbers along , well. It’s hilarious.  Almost like a caricature  sketch of themselves, bumbling a drink order decision at an AA meeting.  🤨.  
 

Surely I’m not the only one ? 

I don’t think golf has ever had to invest in a user change management program or plan.  Now might be the time. 😂

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1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

You could be right.  Ricks also stated his current driver probably isn’t the best fit most optimal for him. Maybe he could get those 10 extra yards with an optimal fit too?  These are all hypothetical things we can attribute some arbitrary number we “think” or “feel” is right, but it does not make them right.

 

Here are the facts.  
he hit the old driver 20 yards less

It wasn’t a scientific experiment controlling all other variables beside driver head.

 

Those types of videos (especially the ones with old golf balls) inadvertently mislead viewers and make people think that stuff over the last 25 ish years was light years behind the stuff we hit today when that is objectively not true.  Anyone that is an analytical nutcase like myself know this to be true.

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1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Those types of videos (especially the ones with old golf balls) inadvertently mislead viewers and make people think that stuff over the last 25 ish years was light years behind the stuff we hit today when that is objectively not true.  Anyone that is an analytical nutcase like myself know this to be true.

Maybe you should reach out and offer to help the USGA and RA with this?   I’m being serious.

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1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Maybe you should reach out and offer to help the USGA and RA with this?   I’m being serious.

 

If they haven't asked Sasho for help, they ain't going to want me.  I am just a golf nerd with an engineering background.  Sasho has an actual PHD on golf related stuff.

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22 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

You could be right.  Ricks also stated his current driver probably isn’t the best fit most optimal for him. Maybe he could get those 10 extra yards with an optimal fit too?  These are all hypothetical things we can attribute some arbitrary number we “think” or “feel” is right, but it does not make them right.

 

Here are the facts.  
he hit the old driver 20 yards less

It wasn’t a scientific experiment controlling all other variables beside driver head.

 

Beyond the unscientific nature, these experiments all ignore one of the biggest aspects of driving technology. The head has very little to do with it in this instance. It's the shaft. Those old shafts honestly just suck compared to modern graphite shafts. Pros and D1 golfers lose a lot of their distance because they can't swing their normal swing with those old shafts. It throws their tempo off creating a chain reaction in their swing. If you want to see a true test of what a small driver head would look like, hand them a 190cc 3W with their normal fitted shaft, with the loft turned down to 13.5 or something. It won't be nearly as drastic as anyone is making out. 

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31 minutes ago, biggolf924 said:

is there any expectation that the rollback will also effect the way golf balls react with scoring clubs and short game shots? 

From a physical perspective there will be, as the effect size won’t be zero. The question will be if the average golfer I’ll notice it.

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Just now, Simpsonia said:

 

Beyond the unscientific nature, these experiments all ignore one of the biggest aspects of driving technology. The head has very little to do with it in this instance. It's the shaft. Those old shafts honestly just suck compared to modern graphite shafts. Pros and D1 golfers lose a lot of their distance because they can't swing their normal swing with those old shafts. It throws their tempo off creating a chain reaction in their swing. If you want to see a true test of what a small driver head would look like, hand them a 190cc 3W with the loft turned down to 13.5 or something. It won't be nearly as drastic as anyone is making out. 

Has anyone scientifically done this test you speak of?  
 

I guess my original point was… all we know is what actually happened when somebody physically tested something vs all the hypothesis of what could happen.

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44 minutes ago, biggolf924 said:

is there any expectation that the rollback will also effect the way golf balls react with scoring clubs and short game shots? 

Not at this time. They have said for iron you will see little to no effect.

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8 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Has anyone scientifically done this test you speak of?  
 

I guess my original point was… all we know is what actually happened when somebody physically tested something vs all the hypothesis of what could happen.

 

I mean kind of an inane test, but this is the closest I could find. Same driver and 3W head between a steel shaft and a graphite shaft. They mentioned swing weight played a big part of both the loss of club head speed and dispersion. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I mean kind of an inane test, but this is the closest I could find. Same driver and 3W head between a steel shaft and a graphite shaft. They mentioned swing weight played a big part of both the loss of club head speed and dispersion. 

 

 

Thats good test.  It’s normalizing for the head and not the shaft.  Would love to see it the other way around, normalizing for the shaft and not the head.

 

Is does tell you that shaft technology has helped increase or distance.  No disputing that.

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