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USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition


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22 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

Beyond the unscientific nature, these experiments all ignore one of the biggest aspects of driving technology. The head has very little to do with it in this instance. It's the shaft. Those old shafts honestly just suck compared to modern graphite shafts. Pros and D1 golfers lose a lot of their distance because they can't swing their normal swing with those old shafts. It throws their tempo off creating a chain reaction in their swing. If you want to see a true test of what a small driver head would look like, hand them a 190cc 3W with their normal fitted shaft, with the loft turned down to 13.5 or something. It won't be nearly as drastic as anyone is making out. 

You are absolutely correct about the advances in graphite shafts.  But just one question.  Has anyone attempted to play a strong 3-wood with a 45-1/2" shaft? 

Think about it, and then respond.  OR put your driver shaft in a fairway wood, if you can find two heads that take the same adapter.

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1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

What?  And also, if talking literal long drive swings ala Daly, you would be wrong.  Longer swings with upward angle of attack do not mean inconsistency.  

Huh ?  I said long drive swing as a euphemism for a hard out of your shoes swing.  No more to read onto it than that. But.  I’ll make a challenge.  
 

 

go to the instruction forum and start a thread with that last sentence  quoted.  Please.  I’m bored. And this is he excitement I need ! 😂

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2 minutes ago, gvogel said:

You are absolutely correct about the advances in graphite shafts.  But just one question.  Has anyone attempted to play a strong 3-wood with a 45-1/2" shaft? 

Think about it, and then respond.  OR put your driver shaft in a fairway wood, if you can find two heads that take the same adapter.

Graphite shafts, 460 cc heads that have large sweet spots and are low spin, high compressions balls that don’t spin - all of these advancements have increased distance the last 20 years.

 

In general, the ability to more easily manage overall spin and spin axis through equipment has increased dramatically in the last 20 years.   

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5 minutes ago, gvogel said:

You are absolutely correct about the advances in graphite shafts.  But just one question.  Has anyone attempted to play a strong 3-wood with a 45-1/2" shaft? 

Think about it, and then respond.  OR put your driver shaft in a fairway wood, if you can find two heads that take the same adapter.

I’ve actually done similar.  In a tiny head driver. Doesn’t work.  Two reasons. Small heads usually weigh too much.  And it’s greatest a very weird lack of awareness sensation .  There’s a point of diminishing return around 44.75 inches with a sub 300 cc head.  

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7 minutes ago, gvogel said:

You are absolutely correct about the advances in graphite shafts.  But just one question.  Has anyone attempted to play a strong 3-wood with a 45-1/2" shaft? 

Think about it, and then respond.  OR put your driver shaft in a fairway wood, if you can find two heads that take the same adapter.

I hit my 3 wood today as far as I hit my driver back in the mid 2000s.  My swing speed has stayed relatively the same.  The ability to manage spin is the driver behind my distance gains with my 3 wood.

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6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Huh ?  I said long drive swing as a euphemism for a hard out of your shoes swing.  No more to read onto it than that. But.  I’ll make a challenge.  
 

 

go to the instruction forum and start a thread with that last sentence  quoted.  Please.  I’m bored. And this is he excitement I need ! 😂

 

No.  I would get a lot of moronic comments if I did that.  The truth of the matter is, it is easier for people to learn the "traditional" swing, but a longer swing does not necessarily mean a bad or inconsistent swing.  Swinging fast also does not necessarily mean uncontrolled.  Swinging unbalanced, out of rhythm and inconsistently will make you inconsistent.  Nobody on tour is swinging out of their shoes btw.  Absolutely nobody.

Swing hard in case you hit it!

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11 minutes ago, gvogel said:

You are absolutely correct about the advances in graphite shafts.  But just one question.  Has anyone attempted to play a strong 3-wood with a 45-1/2" shaft? 

Think about it, and then respond.  OR put your driver shaft in a fairway wood, if you can find two heads that take the same adapter.

 

Many pros don't even need to use 45.5" shafts in their driver. Rory was using a 44" as of March of 2023 at the WGC Match Play.

 

My point is this, driver head size isn't the end-all be-all that you guys are making it out to be. Shaft flex, kickpoint, tempo, and overall swing weight have probably more to do with pure club distance increases, in the aggregate, than just head size alone. 

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There have been less than 10 "wow" times in my golf history when I noticed an immediate change from my existing stuff to a new product.  The solid pro v1 ball vs the balata, the titanium vs steel head, the 460 cc head vs the smaller 400 and under head and the rest have all been shaft improvements.  I expect the golf manufacturers will redesign the club/ball interaction that within 2 equipment cycles the distance will be as good or better than before.  If they want to slow down the ball they have to put a governor in the core so after a certain speed you just get more compression, similar to tennis balls.  I would prefer a regulated core and regulated dimples for the pros so the harder you swing the more precise the strike must be to get optimum results.  That is the way older equipment behaved.  They want to put fear back in the tee game where the term "Sunday best" means what it did before tech erased the fear.  Slowing the ball is just the start if they don't get the reductions they want.  They could limit head size, shorten the max club length again, require a minimum shaft weight etc.  To me they should reverse engineer the tech if that is what they want which appears to be the case.  The ball is just the start...

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2 minutes ago, munichop said:

There have been less than 10 "wow" times in my golf history when I noticed an immediate change from my existing stuff to a new product.  The solid pro v1 ball vs the balata, the titanium vs steel head, the 460 cc head vs the smaller 400 and under head and the rest have all been shaft improvements.  I expect the golf manufacturers will redesign the club/ball interaction that within 2 equipment cycles the distance will be as good or better than before.  If they want to slow down the ball they have to put a governor in the core so after a certain speed you just get more compression, similar to tennis balls.  I would prefer a regulated core and regulated dimples for the pros so the harder you swing the more precise the strike must be to get optimum results.  That is the way older equipment behaved.  They want to put fear back in the tee game where the term "Sunday best" means what it did before tech erased the fear.  Slowing the ball is just the start if they don't get the reductions they want.  They could limit head size, shorten the max club length again, require a minimum shaft weight etc.  To me they should reverse engineer the tech if that is what they want which appears to be the case.  The ball is just the start...

I suspect we balls that reintroduce driver spin, at least at high speeds.  In the last 5-7 years ball manufactures have really perfected the high green side/low driver spin balls.

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17 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Graphite shafts, 460 cc heads that have large sweet spots and are low spin, high compressions balls that don’t spin - all of these advancements have increased distance the last 20 years.

 

In general, the ability to more easily manage overall spin and spin axis through equipment has increased dramatically in the last 20 years.   

Distance at the top has been the same for that long. It’s average distance that has gone up and it’s only been 10 yards. It’s from better athletic golfers. The USGA equipment rep stated 

himself in an interview that in their studies they see the increase of distance from the golfer himself. It posted several pages back if you want to hear it for yourself. This claim like so many others has been debunked over and over in this thread with actual data yet so many keep repeating it with the hopes that it comes true.

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The biggest question that I have is:

 

What is the problem that is happening? No one is describing the problem and everyone is focusing on a solution. 

 

We are all getting hyped up on the solution that has come up by the PGA etc.. However, what its the problem they are trying to solve? It just doesn't make sense. 

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1 minute ago, BigMac_Finn said:

The biggest question that I have is:

 

What is the problem that is happening? No one is describing the problem and everyone is focusing on a solution. 

 

We are all getting hyped up on the solution that has come up by the PGA etc.. However, what its the problem they are trying to solve? It just doesn't make sense. 

If you are new to this thread, many people, including Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy, Adam Scott, nearly all golf course designers, the rules governing bodies, and folks who play historic private and public golf courses, believe that equipment (and launch monitors, and bigger better golfers) are hitting the ball so far that the existing golf courses are not providing the challenge to elite players that they did 25 years ago.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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W

13 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Distance at the top has been the same for that long. It’s average distance that has gone up and it’s only been 10 yards. It’s from better athletic golfers. The USGA equipment rep stated 

himself in an interview that in their studies they see the increase of distance from the golfer himself. It posted several pages back if you want to hear it for yourself. This claim like so many others has been debunked over and over in this thread with actual data yet so many keep repeating it with the hopes that it comes true.

Ok, so assuming all of that’s true.  Isn’t the USGA and RA just taking that average 10 yards back that elite pros have gained on average?  What’s the big deal?

 

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2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

You know.   Most of this is hilarious.  I don’t know why.  But I read and laugh.  It’s really a funny thing.  All that build up , and they deliver the most flaccid response possible. And I cannot figure out why? Is it a cowardly response , hoping diplomacy will be well received?   Volumes have been written about what happens to the lukewarm.  They’re universally hated . Nobody respects indecision. 
 

and to hear Whan wax poetic about the process , while the gentleman slumbers , lumbers along , well. It’s hilarious.  Almost like a caricature  sketch of themselves, bumbling a drink order decision at an AA meeting.  🤨.  
 

Surely I’m not the only one ? 

 

You are not the only one.

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8 minutes ago, ronsc1985 said:

How many days, months, years will it take for all you butt hurt anti-roll back zealots to calm down.  It's over. Try worrying//bitching about something that is not already decided. Losing 5-15 yards off your driver in four or five years is not worth the heart burn it seems to be causing you.  

 

Thank you for your helpful, and completely not inflammatory contribution.

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Swing hard in case you hit it!

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35 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

No.  I would get a lot of moronic comments if I did that.  The truth of the matter is, it is easier for people to learn the "traditional" swing, but a longer swing does not necessarily mean a bad or inconsistent swing.  Swinging fast also does not necessarily mean uncontrolled.  Swinging unbalanced, out of rhythm and inconsistently will make you inconsistent.  Nobody on tour is swinging out of their shoes btw.  Absolutely nobody.

 

JT might. 😆

 

image.jpeg.d82655245c51b2222f2718831f8f0081.jpeg

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42 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I hit my 3 wood today as far as I hit my driver back in the mid 2000s.  My swing speed has stayed relatively the same.  The ability to manage spin is the driver behind my distance gains with my 3 wood.

 

I still have my FT-5 and 905.  They aren't as forgiving, but I hit them within 5 yards of my TSR3.  1.5 smash for all three.  The 905 still feels and sounds great.  The FT-5 hits bombs while sounding and looking absolutely atrocious.  You have to go back further.  I have a '90s Burner that can't out muscle my 3 wood. 

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Just now, MattC555 said:

 

I still have my FT-5 and 905.  They aren't as forgiving, but I hit them within 5 yards of my TSR3.  1.5 smash for all three.  The 905 still feels and sounds great.  The FT-5 hits bombs while sounding and looking absolutely atrocious.  You have to go back further.  I have a '90s Burner that can't out muscle my 3 wood. 

My smash stays relatively the same current vs older driver.  It’s spin management.  Currently I struggle to get below 2500.  I’m lucky if I can get the older stuff pre 2016-17 ish under 3200.  Ball speed with new or older is withing 2/3mph.  Left dash/chrome soft x ls helps as well as the forward weighted heads we have now.

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2 hours ago, subrew said:

Five more years of people arguing about whether a distance reduction is needed?  

 

Take a deep breath, enjoy golf as a hobby, and look forward to lots of fun tech developments over the coming years.  Each OEM will try something different, lots of R&D, and I'm betting some things happen to driver heads too at the elite level.  The Youtube reviewer space is going to be fun.  

 

I find it interesting that people think that things will happen to driver heads only "at the elite level". 

 

The ball restriction was only going to be "at the elite level" via MLR until the PGAT said they wouldn't implement the MLR. 

 

So what happens when the RBs propose a driver head change via MLR so it only affects "the elite level" and then the elite level tells them to pound sand and they're not implementing it? Do us amateurs then get shafted again (no pun intended)?

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Just now, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I find it interesting that people think that things will happen to driver heads only "at the elite level". 

 

The ball restriction was only going to be "at the elite level" via MLR until the PGAT said they wouldn't implement the MLR. 

 

So what happens when the RBs propose a driver head change via MLR so it only affects "the elite level" and then the elite level tells them to pound sand and they're not implementing it? Do us amateurs then get shafted again (no pun intended)?

The ball would have been the more economical approach to elite only.    I can’t imagine having a 500 completion driver and 500 dollar play driver.  Even long drive guys can use the their heads on course if they so choosez

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Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

My smash stays relatively the same current vs older driver.  It’s spin management.  Currently I struggle to get below 2500.  I’m lucky if I can get the older stuff pre 2016-17 ish under 3200.  Ball speed with new or older is withing 2/3mph.  Left dash/chrome soft x ls helps as well as the forward weighted heads we have now.

 

The Taylormade Slder circa 2013 is so low spin it's dangerous.  

 

Spin has a lot to do with strike location.  I'm typically -1 to -2° aoa with driver and have no problem keeping my spin under 2500rpm at 165 ball speed.  

 

Read this and then check your strike location.  Howard speaks the truth.

 

 

 

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Just now, MattC555 said:

 

The Taylormade Slder circa 2013 is so low spin it's dangerous.  

 

Spin has a lot to do with strike location.  I'm typically -1 to -2° aoa with driver and have no problem keeping my spin under 2500rpm at 165 ball speed.  

 

Read this and then check your strike location.  Howard speaks the truth.

 

 

 

I get all that, but my point is it’s far easier for me to manage spin with my swing today than it was 20 years ago through equipment.

 

we can all make improvements to our swing and see gains.  But the fact that I can still be less perfect, swing hard for me (175-180 ball speed, manage my spin so I can get some distance, and keep it in play most of the time is largely due to advancements in equipment and fitting technology.

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58 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

No.  I would get a lot of moronic comments if I did that.  The truth of the matter is, it is easier for people to learn the "traditional" swing, but a longer swing does not necessarily mean a bad or inconsistent swing.  Swinging fast also does not necessarily mean uncontrolled.  Swinging unbalanced, out of rhythm and inconsistently will make you inconsistent.  Nobody on tour is swinging out of their shoes btw.  Absolutely nobody.

It looks to me like Justin Thomas is pretty much swinging at max.  His feet are off the ground at impact.

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I can't even make a joke about JT's bunny hop without it being taken as serious.  JT is completely in control.  That was clevited's point.

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5 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I get all that, but my point is it’s far easier for me to manage spin with my swing today than it was 20 years ago through equipment.

 

we can all make improvements to our swing and see gains.  But the fact that I can still be less perfect, swing hard for me (175-180 ball speed, manage my spin so I can get some distance, and keep it in play most of the time is largely due to advancements in equipment and fitting technology.

 

Yes, I agree.  Modern drivers are far more forgiving. 

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15 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I find it interesting that people think that things will happen to driver heads only "at the elite level". 

 

The ball restriction was only going to be "at the elite level" via MLR until the PGAT said they wouldn't implement the MLR. 

 

So what happens when the RBs propose a driver head change via MLR so it only affects "the elite level" and then the elite level tells them to pound sand and they're not implementing it? Do us amateurs then get shafted again (no pun intended)?

The USGA/R&A could make a driver head rule as an MLR, and it would only be used where the competition committee decided.  That would be the US Open, Open Championship and probably the Masters.  Maybe a few other tournaments.  If that rule worked as anticipated, other elite tournaments might decide to use the MLR.  But the USGA would certainly not force a more restrictive driver into the recreational game.

 

One ball for all golfers is a good thing.  A specific driver for some events might also be a good thing.  Hopefully such drivers would be available to anyone who would like to "play what the pros play." 

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42 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

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Ok, so assuming all of that’s true.  Isn’t the USGA and RA just taking that average 10 yards back that elite pros have gained on average?  What’s the big deal?

 

Because this decision also affects the smarter golfer. But it doesn’t achieve what the ruling bodies claim it will. Sasho Mackenzie explained this in a social media post (also posted in this thread) and a podcast(also posted in this thread). These pros have more in the tank and will be back to these same distances and more people will work to get faster because of the advantage that comes with distance and it will be where we are today.

 

Also if the ruling bodies were trying to get back to saving shorter courses this rollback won’t save that. The pro game will see no impact to how the pros approach the game. 
 

This was nothing but a way for the ruling bodies to say how the game should be played at the pro level and that the way the tour is doing it isn’t good

 

3 minutes ago, gvogel said:

The USGA/R&A could make a driver head rule as an MLR, and it would only be used where the competition committee decided.  That would be the US Open, Open Championship and probably the Masters.  Maybe a few other tournaments.  If that rule worked as anticipated, other elite tournaments might decide to use the MLR.  But the USGA would certainly not force a more restrictive driver into the recreational game.

 

One ball for all golfers is a good thing.  A specific driver for some events might also be a good thing.  Hopefully such drivers would be available to anyone who would like to "play what the pros play." 

the tour and off of America balked at an mlr for a ball do you think they are going to do so for a reduced driver size? Players said that they would consider not playing the U.S. Open if the male was used. Do you think they would play one tournament with a smaller driver?

 

 The answer is no to both questions.

 

You keep proposing all these ideas that won’t work on the tour in some effort that courses that weren’t used in the 90s for majors would be used again or because you misinterpret the skills these players have compared to what you prefer from your idols.

 

The game progresses and lots of people like the current game. You know what people in a minority do when they don’t like a product? They don’t buy it or watch and let those who do have their enjoyment and not try to change it. Maybe those who don’t like the pro game should just leave it alone and not watch it.

 

and for the whole distance, courses being obsolete, longer courses being built you might want to look at the data that longer courses haven’t been built in the last decade or so they have actually been about 500-700 years shorter than a decade before that.

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      Joel Dahmen WITB – 2024 Valero Texas Open
      Axis 1 broomstick putter - 2024 Valero Texas Open
      Rory McIlroy testing a new TaylorMade "PROTO" 4-iron – 2024 Valero Texas Open
      Rory McIlroy's Trackman numbers w/ driver on the range – 2024 Valero Texas Open
       
       
       
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      • 4 replies
    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 13 replies

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