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USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition


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3 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Because this decision also affects the smarter golfer. But it doesn’t achieve what the ruling bodies claim it will. Sasho Mackenzie explained this in a social media post (also posted in this thread) and a podcast(also posted in this thread). These pros have more in the tank and will be back to these same distances and more people will work to get faster because of the advantage that comes with distance and it will be where we are today.

 

Also if the ruling bodies were trying to get back to saving shorter courses this rollback won’t save that. The pro game will see no impact to how the pros approach the game. 
 

This was nothing but a way for the ruling bodies to say how the game should be played at the pro level and that the way the tour is doing it isn’t good

 

the tour and off of America balked at an mlr for a ball do you think they are going to do so for a reduced driver size? Players said that they would consider not playing the U.S. Open if the male was used. Do you think they would play one tournament with a smaller driver?

 

 The answer is no to both questions.

 

You keep proposing all these ideas that won’t work on the tour in some effort that courses that weren’t used in the 90s for majors would be used again or because you misinterpret the skills these players have compared to what you prefer from your idols.

 

The game progresses and lots of people like the current game. You know what people in a minority do when they don’t like a product? They don’t buy it or watch and let those who do have their enjoyment and not try to change it. Maybe those who don’t like the pro game should just leave it alone and not watch it.

 

and for the whole distance, courses being obsolete, longer courses being built you might want to look at the data that longer courses haven’t been built in the last decade or so they have actually been about 500-700 years shorter than a decade before that.

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4 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

So would you have been ok if the USGA simply put a cap at today's technology and prohibited changes/inprovements going forward? 

Did you like golf 5, 10, 20, etc years ago? What if they capped the tech back then?

 

Fwiw, I think capping tech would result in less R & D, less advertising about newer and better and more commodity like pricing. Most players would end up spending less on equipment and those using 5+ year old equipment wouldn't be at a disadvantage. Players could still practice, train and improve their abilities like they have in basketball and other sports. How many ads for basketballs do you see during an NBA game (or ads for footballs during those broadcasts)? Pretty sure it's fewer than golf ball ads, but there are still shoe and other commercials. How many NBA, NFL & pro Soccer/Football players get paid to endorse a particular ball? Not sure about tennis players...

 

I started golfing in 2005 at the age of 39, it's been quite a learning curve but I've always liked it.  Last year I got out an old Cleveland Hibore XL driver just for the heck of it and it wasn't that different than my current driver except it was super loud.  If I had to game it I'd still be having fun, same goes for an old set of Callaway X-18 irons.  If tech had been capped back then I wouldn't know any different.  If it was rolled back to that level I would notice.

 

Capping technology is different than rolling it back.  I think I've already stated that most would of been fine if the USGA kept the current limits or even if they changed the standards but only to the extent that it limited progression from where we already are.

 

I'm not a fan of having something taken from me, even if it's only 10 yards on the drive.  I'm not tearing up courses, my only competition is with my Men's Club.

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28 minutes ago, gvogel said:

It looks to me like Justin Thomas is pretty much swinging at max.  His feet are off the ground at impact.

 

Nothing to do with his max.   He could have 5 or 10 more mph in him for all we know and he isn't falling over after hitting the ball.  Bubba has been coming off the ground his entire career for instance and he rarely hits anywhere near his max.

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23 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Because this decision also affects the smarter golfer. But it doesn’t achieve what the ruling bodies claim it will. Sasho Mackenzie explained this in a social media post (also posted in this thread) and a podcast(also posted in this thread). These pros have more in the tank and will be back to these same distances and more people will work to get faster because of the advantage that comes with distance and it will be where we are today.

 

Also if the ruling bodies were trying to get back to saving shorter courses this rollback won’t save that. The pro game will see no impact to how the pros approach the game. 
 

This was nothing but a way for the ruling bodies to say how the game should be played at the pro level and that the way the tour is doing it isn’t good

 

the tour and off of America balked at an mlr for a ball do you think they are going to do so for a reduced driver size? Players said that they would consider not playing the U.S. Open if the male was used. Do you think they would play one tournament with a smaller driver?

 

 The answer is no to both questions.

 

You keep proposing all these ideas that won’t work on the tour in some effort that courses that weren’t used in the 90s for majors would be used again or because you misinterpret the skills these players have compared to what you prefer from your idols.

 

The game progresses and lots of people like the current game. You know what people in a minority do when they don’t like a product? They don’t buy it or watch and let those who do have their enjoyment and not try to change it. Maybe those who don’t like the pro game should just leave it alone and not watch it.

 

and for the whole distance, courses being obsolete, longer courses being built you might want to look at the data that longer courses haven’t been built in the last decade or so they have actually been about 500-700 years shorter than a decade before that.

Why wouldn't they if the money and prestige were worth the effort?  According to some of you they could play with their 3-wood, and that's not difficult.  Let's say Fred Ridley said that for the Masters in 2028, no players metal wood could be larger than 190cc, or 200cc.  Do you really think that the pros wouldn't find a strong 3-wood or 2-wood and tee it up for the chance to win a Green Jacket, and go to the Champions Dinner every year?

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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This is a super long thread so maybe the answer is already out there but I'm still a bit puzzled by this. Is seems the general preface is that a ball cannot exceed certain performance criteria at pre-specified inputs. Now if all balls started at the max like most drivers are maxed for COR then one could be confident about the outcome.

 

But if the fundamental determinant threshold is distance, surely a number of the balls the better players are using are already well within the parameters, so a roll-back is going to effect the "distance" balls more than those geared to control. So won't say a Titleist Velocity have to be throttled back far more than a Pro V1 and yet which pros play a Velocity?

 

What am I missing here guys?

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There’s only one solution.

 

Spoiler

The USGA and R&A announce that there is no solution.

 

“Effective immediately, all equipment limits and rules are rescinded and everyone can play with any equipment and ball they want.

 

Call us if you change your mind, or run out of money buying your score.

 

Your friends at the USGA and R&A”

 

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29 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Why wouldn't they if the money and prestige were worth the effort?  According to some of you they could play with their 3-wood, and that's not difficult.  Let's say Fred Ridley said that for the Masters in 2028, no players metal wood could be larger than 190cc, or 200cc.  Do you really think that the pros wouldn't find a strong 3-wood or 2-wood and tee it up for the chance to win a Green Jacket, and go to the Champions Dinner every year?

 

I have actually proposed this before in this thread or perhaps another.  I would rather see golf courses regulate drivers as a YES or NO option than any roll back.  If they subjectively feel people hit too far with a driver and that would make them feel better, by all means do it.  It will be a false comfort as you can already buy 3 woods that act like mini drivers and good players will still be able to nuke those off the tee.  Eventually, if this catches on, OEMs will make a lighter headed, lower lofted "3w" with a driver length shaft in it and then we can achieve the appearance of dialing it back without actually doing it.  Only the amateurs will suffer.

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23 minutes ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

This is a super long thread so maybe the answer is already out there but I'm still a bit puzzled by this. Is seems the general preface is that a ball cannot exceed certain performance criteria at pre-specified inputs. Now if all balls started at the max like most drivers are maxed for COR then one could be confident about the outcome.

 

But if the fundamental determinant threshold is distance, surely a number of the balls the better players are using are already well within the parameters, so a roll-back is going to effect the "distance" balls more than those geared to control. So won't say a Titleist Velocity have to be throttled back far more than a Pro V1 and yet which pros play a Velocity?

 

What am I missing here guys?

 

Titleist Velocity may very well have to change based on how it measures relative to the new ball test parameters. There's a reason the PGA of America wants the USGA and R&A to moderate the swing speed used for the test, because the recreational golfers will likely be more affected than the "5 yards" that are being claimed by the roll-back proponents.

 

No pros play a Titleist Velocity because it's basically a solid core ball with a surlyn (or whatever NaZ+ is) cover that doesn't spin nearly enough for a Tour pro to land it on a firm green and stop it, or for the short game, and it feels like a rock relative to a Pro V1.

 

I'd like to see how an AVX fits into the new testing parameters.  I've played the AVX because I love how it feels, recognizing that I'm probably giving up a few yards with the driver, and it spins enough (in the latest iteration) with the irons and around the green.  Of course Titleist is apparently changing the AVX for 2024 and merging it with the Tour Speed ball, so we'll see. 

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5 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I have actually proposed this before in this thread or perhaps another.  I would rather see golf courses regulate drivers as a YES or NO option than any roll back.  If they subjectively feel people hit too far with a driver and that would make them feel better, by all means do it.  It will be a false comfort as you can already buy 3 woods that act like mini drivers and good players will still be able to nuke those off the tee.  Eventually, if this catches on, OEMs will make a lighter headed, lower lofted "3w" with a driver length shaft in it and then we can achieve the appearance of dialing it back without actually doing it.  Only the amateurs will suffer.

Me the day I see clevited’s CS fang putter avatar pic as the last to respond to a thread in the tour sub and it’s not in this threat

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😂 sorry clev. You do you, jus funnin’ 😇

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24 minutes ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

This is a super long thread so maybe the answer is already out there but I'm still a bit puzzled by this. Is seems the general preface is that a ball cannot exceed certain performance criteria at pre-specified inputs. Now if all balls started at the max like most drivers are maxed for COR then one could be confident about the outcome.

 

But if the fundamental determinant threshold is distance, surely a number of the balls the better players are using are already well within the parameters, so a roll-back is going to effect the "distance" balls more than those geared to control. So won't say a Titleist Velocity have to be throttled back far more than a Pro V1 and yet which pros play a Velocity?

 

What am I missing here guys?


The Velocity ball is not longer than a ProV1.  "Distance balls" is just marketing. 

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28 minutes ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

This is a super long thread so maybe the answer is already out there but I'm still a bit puzzled by this. Is seems the general preface is that a ball cannot exceed certain performance criteria at pre-specified inputs. Now if all balls started at the max like most drivers are maxed for COR then one could be confident about the outcome.

 

But if the fundamental determinant threshold is distance, surely a number of the balls the better players are using are already well within the parameters, so a roll-back is going to effect the "distance" balls more than those geared to control. So won't say a Titleist Velocity have to be throttled back far more than a Pro V1 and yet which pros play a Velocity?

 

What am I missing here guys?

That is the present problem.  None of the balls that the better players use will pass the test after the new parameters are set.

 

The balls that might pass the test are soft balls that older players like to play, but are not played by faster swinging golfers.  At least, today.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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8 minutes ago, gvogel said:

That is the present problem.  None of the balls that the better players use will pass the test after the new parameters are set.

 

The balls that might pass the test are soft balls that older players like to play, but are not played by faster swinging golfers.  At least, today.

 

How do you know this?

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The problem with the usga is they’re so in love with themselves and the classic courses they want to “protect”.

winged user c oakmont, merion, Oakland hills, shinnecock.  Do you think the average YouTubing, 20 year old golfer (golf’s future customers) gives a damn if the winning score is -25? The only one butt hurt are people who have spent their entire lives wrapped   up in the cocoon of country club life. The ones that think golf has some grand history that is supposed to be celebrated.

the game has changed, it now invites athleticism.  There is no problem with that. 
just cap the ball speed where it’s at now if it makes you feel better. Tour swings are just about maxed out.  
the usga should purchase a run down course and build a certified badass track to host their flagship events.w  we swg

 

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1 hour ago, SlothofDespond said:

 

The USGA just rammed a golf ball rollback down the recreational game's throat a day ago despite the golfing community at large saying it had no interest in a rollback. The USGA will do whatever it damn well pleases to the recreational market.


exactly, and their comments weren’t completely concerned about the current pros, sounds like they are more concerned about the progressive gains the young ams are making…if they make restrictions regarding forgiveness of drivers, it’ll be for everyone, and it’s a small leap to see them restrict COR even more…

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13 minutes ago, biffstix said:

The problem with the usga is they’re so in love with themselves and the classic courses they want to “protect”.

winged user c oakmont, merion, Oakland hills, shinnecock.  Do you think the average YouTubing, 20 year old golfer (golf’s future customers) gives a damn if the winning score is -25? The only one butt hurt are people who have spent their entire lives wrapped   up in the cocoon of country club life. The ones that think golf has some grand history that is supposed to be celebrated.

the game has changed, it now invites athleticism.  There is no problem with that. 
just cap the ball speed where it’s at now if it makes you feel better. Tour swings are just about maxed out.  
the usga should purchase a run down course and build a certified badass track to host their flagship events.w  we swg

 


I have been assured they will all find 5-10 more mph.

 

Also not clear how you cap ball speed if it isn’t capped now with restrictions in place for basically everything.

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38 minutes ago, biffstix said:

The problem with the usga is they’re so in love with themselves and the classic courses they want to “protect”.

winged user c oakmont, merion, Oakland hills, shinnecock.  Do you think the average YouTubing, 20 year old golfer (golf’s future customers) gives a damn if the winning score is -25? The only one butt hurt are people who have spent their entire lives wrapped   up in the cocoon of country club life. The ones that think golf has some grand history that is supposed to be celebrated.

the game has changed, it now invites athleticism.  There is no problem with that. 
just cap the ball speed where it’s at now if it makes you feel better. Tour swings are just about maxed out.  
the usga should purchase a run down course and build a certified badass track to host their flagship events.w  we swg

 

When the younger generation accedes to leadership of the USGA, they can move the OFS to 350 yards or more, for I care.  I won’t be around.

 

But if they want to keep things as they are, or roll back a little more, the ball won’t be terribly out of whack.

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33 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I appreciate you having a sense of humor @clevited Make the “joke” I made to you to some and they undressin’ ya w/personal insults. Thanks 😊 

 

Once in a great while I venture out into other garbage dumps.  Like scared little trash panda I am.

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1 hour ago, gvogel said:

Why wouldn't they if the money and prestige were worth the effort?  According to some of you they could play with their 3-wood, and that's not difficult.  Let's say Fred Ridley said that for the Masters in 2028, no players metal wood could be larger than 190cc, or 200cc.  Do you really think that the pros wouldn't find a strong 3-wood or 2-wood and tee it up for the chance to win a Green Jacket, and go to the Champions Dinner every year?

They could but the PGA tour is fine with the equipment and producf they have as our many of their members. Just like regular golfers pros try to make the game as easy as possible, they don’t want to do the opposite 

 

 

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So I just watched Mike Whan of the USGA on Golf Today. He claims the rollback will affect amateur golfers 0-5 yards on driver and none on irons and other clubs.

 

Then it was reported that Keagan Bradley did some tests with roll back balls (where did he get those?) and had 40 and 50 yard reduction in driver distance.

 

Lucas Glover also did testing with Srixon/Cleveland of some modified balls and said his good drive went 240.

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17 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Reading everything that I can on the topic

 

To form an opinion?  I have seen zero facts to back up your claims.  Only additional claims from other people.  Without data its all conjecture. 

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At my age, I'm out there playing for fun and exercise.  I don't play club tournaments or US Open qualifiers.  I'm not taking money or trophies from anyone.  However, as I get older, I'm already losing distance, so I have a simple solution for everyone like me:

 

I'm going to absolutely LOAD UP on golf balls in 2029.

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4 minutes ago, scotee said:

So I just watched Mike Whan of the USGA on Golf Today. He claims the rollback will affect amateur golfers 0-5 yards on driver and none on irons and other clubs.

 

Then it was reported that Keagan Bradley did some tests with roll back balls (where did he get those?) and had 40 and 50 yard reduction in driver distance.

 

Lucas Glover also did testing with Srixon/Cleveland of some modified balls and said his good drive went 240.


I saw that too 😬 

I’m a high swingspeed player, if I’m losing that much distance I’ll be pissed.

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2 hours ago, gvogel said:

Why wouldn't they if the money and prestige were worth the effort?  According to some of you they could play with their 3-wood, and that's not difficult.  Let's say Fred Ridley said that for the Masters in 2028, no players metal wood could be larger than 190cc, or 200cc.  Do you really think that the pros wouldn't find a strong 3-wood or 2-wood and tee it up for the chance to win a Green Jacket, and go to the Champions Dinner every year?

Do you really think the former prez of the USGA is going to have a tournament he runs create a driver size rule and just skip the official rules of golf?🤔

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3 hours ago, gvogel said:

If you are new to this thread, many people, including Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy, Adam Scott, nearly all golf course designers, the rules governing bodies, and folks who play historic private and public golf courses, believe that equipment (and launch monitors, and bigger better golfers) are hitting the ball so far that the existing golf courses are not providing the challenge to elite players that they did 25 years ago.

So the problem is golf courses are not providing challenges so rolling back the ball to fly less ~10-15 yards will bring this back??

 

Again no one is actually providing a problem statement. Which in fact doesn’t seem like there is really a problem. 

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