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USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition


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34 minutes ago, Ole3wiggle said:

Go buy any of these 3 clubs from Danny Willets WITB from the Pebble Beach Pro-Am

 

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ok. ya got me. 

 

a fairway wood loft that doesn’t sell at retail. 

 

it’s not made of anything different than the td 3 and 5 woods, it’s just a different loft. 

 

not exactly a huge smoking gun, but yeah, ya got me. 

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21 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

So your concern is that the MLR will eventually become a universal rule? 

 

Maybe this is some trojan horse ruse, but I'll take Mike Whan at his word that everybody (USGA, R&A, PGAT, OEMs) biggest concern was not disrupting the recreational player. So there wont be a conformance issue. You and your playing partners can choose whether or not you want to adopt the MLR or not. No different then getting to choose whether or not to implement lift/clean/place or pick your own tees.   

 

Turn it around another way.

 

In your opinion, in 2 years from now, when you walk into your local golf store… will you have a choice to make when buying golf balls? Elite balls or common balls?

 

That choice is in no way "localised".

 

If they don't want to disrupt the recreational player, put out a list of no-no balls right now for 2026. Stop the V1x, the Left Dash, and all the other hard balls.

 

Don't make me, the recreational player, have to decide what my 4-ball is doing; one set of balls or another. That's not a concern now, and in *never* should be. 

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"Golf is just a dance with a stick, and a ball tells you how good a dancer you are."  LCP150mm in your fairway should be a full-time rule.

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4 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

ok. ya got me. 

 

a fairway wood loft that doesn’t sell at retail. 

 

it’s not made of anything different than the td 3 and 5 woods, it’s just a different loft. 

 

not exactly a huge smoking gun, but yeah, ya got me. 

 

LOL you & @clevited are insufferable. 

 

Just want to make sure these two quotes were you:

absolutely nothing different about a tour issue head vs a retail head. 

 

they’re plucked off the line and all of the specs are measured so the pros can pick the ones they like best. 

 

that’s it. 

 

same materials, same construction, same graphics. same same. 

 

id love to see a link or an article to something that a pga pro is playing that i can’t get my hands on with absolutely 0 connections to the golf industry. 

 

No one said the tour heads were made of some magical or different material than the retail heads. I said they make tour only head shapes that the public has no access too.

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1 minute ago, Ole3wiggle said:

 

LOL you & @clevited are insufferable. 

 

Just want to make sure these two quotes were you:

absolutely nothing different about a tour issue head vs a retail head. 

 

they’re plucked off the line and all of the specs are measured so the pros can pick the ones they like best. 

 

that’s it. 

 

same materials, same construction, same graphics. same same. 

 

id love to see a link or an article to something that a pga pro is playing that i can’t get my hands on with absolutely 0 connections to the golf industry. 

 

No one said the tour heads were made of some magical or different material than the retail heads. I said they make tour only head shapes that the public has no access too.

dude, i said you got me. no need to sling mud. 

 

take the win. 

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9 minutes ago, Ole3wiggle said:

 

LOL you & @clevited are insufferable. 

 

Just want to make sure these two quotes were you:

absolutely nothing different about a tour issue head vs a retail head. 

 

they’re plucked off the line and all of the specs are measured so the pros can pick the ones they like best. 

 

that’s it. 

 

same materials, same construction, same graphics. same same. 

 

id love to see a link or an article to something that a pga pro is playing that i can’t get my hands on with absolutely 0 connections to the golf industry. 

 

No one said the tour heads were made of some magical or different material than the retail heads. I said they make tour only head shapes that the public has no access too.

 

You are holding onto a gotcha when your position is incredibly meaningless.  All that matters is performance and conformance in this bifurcation discussion.  Chip was incorrect about being able to buy anything but it remains true that it isn't bifurcation.  I can go get custom clubs, I can find an equivalent for anything he has.  The equipment isn't bifurcated.  Force a tour only ball and the equipment is officially bifurcated in the form of meaningful equipment rules allowed for pro's vs the rest of golf.  

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6 minutes ago, the_Danimal said:

There's no way they were considering the recreational golfer during this decision process. their only concern has been about the longest of professionals and what they were doing to historic courses

 

I believe they initially wanted an across the board rollback, which based on this thread would have been the better way to go. 

 

14 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

Turn it around another way.

 

In your opinion, in 2 years from now, when you walk into your local golf store… will you have a choice to make when buying golf balls? Elite balls or common balls?

 

That choice is in no way "localised".

 

If they don't want to disrupt the recreational player, put out a list of no-no balls right now for 2026. Stop the V1x, the Left Dash, and all the other hard balls.

 

Don't make me, the recreational player, have to decide what my 4-ball is doing; one set of balls or another. That's not a concern now, and in *never* should be. 

 

Do you adopt the 1 ball rule or do you not care?

 

28 minutes ago, the_Danimal said:

It's not about kirkland vs ProV1 or whatever "conforming brand" you want to specify. It's about conformance to the rule. My point is that no one buys non-conforming golf balls right now to improve their performance. Yet, non-conforming golf balls are available for purchase

 

This doesn't create a conformance issue outside events where the MLR is adopted. You can game it out and come to the conclusion that "juiced" balls will exit the market for any number of other factors, I don't agree, but it's not the same type of issue. There is no insistence on abiding by other rules for a large chunk of golfers, I guess I don't see why so many are so sure this is how it will play out, especially with it not intended to affect all equipment. 

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8 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

In your opinion, in 2 years from now, when you walk into your local golf store… will you have a choice to make when buying golf balls? Elite balls or common balls?

Yes, in my opinion I believe I will have that choice. No different then the dozens of choices I have now, between hard, soft, softer, low spin, high spin, color, alignment marks, cheap, cheaper, expensive. I think the only change is that there will be a couple more options marked USGA / R&A approved.

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9 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

You are holding onto a gotcha when your position is incredibly meaningless.  All that matters is performance and conformance in this bifurcation discussion.  Chip was incorrect about being able to buy anything but it remains true that it isn't bifurcation.  I can go get custom clubs, I can find an equivalent for anything he has.  The equipment isn't bifurcated.  Force a tour only ball and the equipment is officially bifurcated in the form of meaningful equipment rules allowed for pro's vs the rest of golf.  

I'm done on equipment. I'm sorry @ChipStrokes i read your reply in the wrong tone/inflection, I wasn't trying to pour it on had I known you conceded the point. I didn't read it that way. 

 

Ok, so what's your gripe here then? You're saying you're mad that there will be initially 2 different types of balls. You think eventually everyone will be "forced" into playing this new ball. So when everyones playing this new ball, what is the issue you have? You're just mad you have to make the adjustment? What?

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12 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

I believe they initially wanted an across the board rollback, which based on this thread would have been the better way to go. 

 

 

Do you adopt the 1 ball rule or do you not care?

 

 

This doesn't create a conformance issue outside events where the MLR is adopted. You can game it out and come to the conclusion that "juiced" balls will exit the market for any number of other factors, I don't agree, but it's not the same type of issue. There is no insistence on abiding by other rules for a large chunk of golfers, I guess I don't see why so many are so sure this is how it will play out, especially with it not intended to affect all equipment. 

true. I'm assuming the golfers who make up the majority of the market will want to adopt whatever rules the pros play with

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6 minutes ago, the_Danimal said:

There's no way they were considering the recreational golfer during this decision process. their only concern has been about the longest of professionals and what they were doing to historic courses

Considering its an MLR and not a universal rule I think it's pretty disingenuous to think the needs/wants of the recreational golfer wasn't considered. 

 

They could have taken a much harder line and rolled back the ball for everyone, roll back drivers to 400cc, further restrict COR, etc. There seems to be just as many people that think the USGA hasn't gone far enough as there are people who think the USGA crossed the line. 

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15 minutes ago, Ole3wiggle said:

I'm done on equipment. I'm sorry @ChipStrokes i read your reply in the wrong tone/inflection, I wasn't trying to pour it on had I known you conceded the point. I didn't read it that way. 

 

Ok, so what's your gripe here then? You're saying you're mad that there will be initially 2 different types of balls. You think eventually everyone will be "forced" into playing this new ball. So when everyones playing this new ball, what is the issue you have? You're just mad you have to make the adjustment? What?

 

Didn't you see my big rant earlier? Should be pretty well covered in there lol.

Swing hard in case you hit it!

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35 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Do you adopt the 1 ball rule or do you not care?

I play one ball, but not for the rule. However that MLR has zero effect on the market, or what I choose at the pro shop to buy.

 

You cannot say that about this MLR. It will affect it to it's (solid) core.

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"Golf is just a dance with a stick, and a ball tells you how good a dancer you are."  LCP150mm in your fairway should be a full-time rule.

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5 hours ago, clevited said:

WARNING, RANT POST BELOW

 

Bifurcation:  One word, dumb.  The game has had the unique position to be the same across all levels.  Anyone pointing out minor tweaks in rules as bifurcation are not being genuine and are grasping at straws to support their point of view.  Bifurcation will absolutely cause confusion, and it will absolutely increase the cost of golf balls for at least some amount of time.  It is also dumb because I am absolutely convinced, eventually, it will be all we (ams) can buy.  The MLR ball will filter down to the masses because we like to play what the pro's play.  This may be by design, but I say why bifurcate at all then if it is intended.  USGA has to be aware this is almost assured to happen.

 

It doesn't solve the "problem":  As I have stated before, it addresses none of the pro roll back talking points.  The distance decrease will not be enough to bring any old courses back into the rota, it will not protect any current courses from becoming "obsolete", it will not bring 3 irons back into part 4s, it will not make par 5s unreachable in 2, it will not bring back massive bubba like shot shaping every other shot.  It will however, favor the longest hitters and make distance even more of a shot gainer than it currently is which seems to me to be exactly opposite of what rollbackers want.  

 

It doesn't change the analytics of the game: People seem to gloss over the fact that golf is about getting the ball in the hole in as few of strokes as possible.  Analytics shows that the most efficient way to do that is to hit it as far as possible off the tee so that your second shot is as short as possible.  You would literally have to roll the ball back 20% to get the longest hitters that exist or ever will exist to be forced to play the game at similar distances to the Jack and Arnie era which I think is what most rollbackers want.  That would be the only way you will see the longest of the long "tested" in the manner desired.  

 

There isn't a problem with distance and there won't be: Elite golfers will at worse, entirely be as long as a guy like Bryson or Rory.  Many of these guys can already hit it much longer than they average over the course of a season but they don't because it isn't helpful.  They are pegged as far as useful distance is concerned.  Accuracy, risk reward etc all play into that natural cap.  If the tour started playing absolutely wide open courses only, you will see that average come up for everyone but as it stands they don't and for the past 20+ years, the max average has stayed pretty much the same, 315-320 yards.  Courses do not need to lengthen to "fight distance".  This has always been a weak arguement.  When you do that, you absolutely add even more advantage to the longest players and amplify "one skill" even more, which is exactly opposite of what is stated to be desired.  It is also a marketing ploy that is the source of much of the course lengthening stuff.   Its a keep up with the Joneses thing that each new course must be longer than the last in order to look more prestigious or difficult.  That is a perception that is wrong and the USGA should be working to reverse that false image instead of chasing the boogeyman like they are.

 

Distance is capped and has been for decades: Contrary to popular belief, drivers and balls are not getting longer, players are.  Analytics is driving this as is the switch in teaching mentalities across the globe.  The ball is not getting longer, the clubs are not getting longer, they aren't even getting any more forgiving.  Companies market it because that is what sells them.  USGA would certainly be wise however to spend their time and energy on fighting any unforeseen new thing that might slip past the current rules.  They should be quick to react and have a decision within a few months of a new tech releasing.  This could be lighter shafts like the autoflex for instance.  They probably should cap club weight if they want to be forward thinking and do something actually meaningful rather than wait 30+ years and then piss off a ton of people.

 

There are other ways to reward other aspects of the game that are much easier to implement: As has been mentioned many times, there are ways to fight distance, if so desired, that are much less intrusive to the game at large.  Allowing rough to grow longer, allowing fairways to grow longer, making bunkers more penal, making adjacent fairways OB.  There are lots of ways to do such a thing without risking damage to the game.  The tour is in charge of making a product.  They decide how they want it to play and look.  The RBs don't like the way they play it or make it look but don't seem to understand that it is largely due to how they set up courses.  It is intentional.  The RBs are trying to force the game into a different image and it makes zero sense.

 

If you are going to do it, do it right or don't do it at all: If the RBs want to make the game play a certain way, and absolutely believe they are doing the right thing, then they should man up and actually do what they want to do.  There are many ways to win over the masses, or at least save face regarding the assured backlash as much as possible.  All they would need to do is send out a statement saying they want to roll the ball back 20%, state they want the game to look more like it did in the 70s, 80s and 90s and why, then they need to say that they are going to do this over the next 20 years incrementally.  I would have way more respect if they did such a thing even though I will still hate it and think it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

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3 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

absolutely nothing different about a tour issue head vs a retail head. 

 

they’re plucked off the line and all of the specs are measured so the pros can pick the ones they like best. 

 

that’s it. 

 

same materials, same construction, same graphics. same same. 

I put lead tape on my wedges, SEE BIFURCATION ALREADY EXISTS!!!! /s 

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36 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Um that has nothing to do with a ball being disproportionally nerfed for different people. 

What are you talking about? The Old Course put the tee box for the road hole across the freaking street. Augusta has added 500 yds in the last 20 years. All of this is about combating distance. 

 

Do you really think the USGA, R&A, and The Masters are just pushing this to be anti-fun fuddy duddies?

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1 minute ago, Dutch1008 said:

What are you talking about? The Old Course put the tee box for the road hole across the freaking street. Augusta has added 500 yds in the last 20 years. All of this is about combating distance. 

 

Do you really think the USGA, R&A, and The Masters are just pushing this to be anti-fun fuddy duddies?

Dude, two different things. One is a rollback equally for everyone. The other is a rollback  disproportionally aimed at faster players. Thats what my comment was directed at. Has nothing to do with courses. 

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12 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Dude, two different things. One is a rollback equally for everyone. The other is a rollback  disproportionally aimed at faster players. Thats what my comment was directed at. Has nothing to do with courses. 

Gotcha, so you're frustrated that Cam Young's avg drive will drop 15.1% while Webb Simpson's will drop only 14.6%?

 

One, do we even have the data to make these statements? Two, how is that any different from the current ball restrictions? Young, Rory, Bryson, Cam Champ are already being disproportionally affected. 

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Seems to be a sit-up between the people who run golf courses and the people sell equipment via ads and endorsements.

 

Logic and fairness indicate the people who maintain real courses for people to play should prevail over OEM’s who misleadingly sell “distance” to the average guy based on what the pros do.

 

 But hey we need balls that go up to 11.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

Gotcha, so you're frustrated that Cam Young's avg drive will drop 15.1% while Webb Simpson's will drop only 14.6%?

 

One, do we even have the data to make these statements? Two, how is that any different from the current ball restrictions? Young, Rory, Bryson, Cam Champ are already being disproportionally affected. 

Yes that is it, essentially. Yes we have some data and no one is being disproportionately affected currently.

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7 hours ago, Stevens24 said:

I would have it for pro events only and not even sell it to the public. But that is just me.

But the PGA tour isn’t asking for a rollback nor is their membership so it’s not something that will be pro events only. The USGA and R&A want it and because it’s a MLR they will make sure it’s used in every event their organizations host pro and amateur. This assume the MLR is put in place and not abandon.

 

With it in the amateur world there will be other amateur events that start to use the MLR in their events and will probably be used by the AJGA so not it’s trickled all the way down to junior events. I could see the NCAA using it as well. 
 

As i and others have said it will trickle

all the way to the everyday golfer 

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6 hours ago, the_Danimal said:

It's not about kirkland vs ProV1 or whatever "conforming brand" you want to specify. It's about conformance to the rule. My point is that no one buys non-conforming golf balls right now to improve their performance. Yet, non-conforming golf balls are available for purchase

Current balls won't be deemed non-conforming. 

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6 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

Turn it around another way.

 

In your opinion, in 2 years from now, when you walk into your local golf store… will you have a choice to make when buying golf balls? Elite balls or common balls?

 

That choice is in no way "localised".

 

If they don't want to disrupt the recreational player, put out a list of no-no balls right now for 2026. Stop the V1x, the Left Dash, and all the other hard balls.

 

Don't make me, the recreational player, have to decide what my 4-ball is doing; one set of balls or another. That's not a concern now, and in *never* should be. 

Thats a YOU problem. It won't be an issue for 99% of recreational golfers

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3 minutes ago, OrangeGravy said:

Thats a YOU problem. It won't be an issue for 99% of recreational golfers

History has shown that this is not a "me" problem. But go off...

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"Golf is just a dance with a stick, and a ball tells you how good a dancer you are."  LCP150mm in your fairway should be a full-time rule.

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      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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