Discussion on How/Where to Hit Approach Shots to Score

[heavy_hitter]

Having a discussion with another WRX'r about this topic.  We disagree.  

 

The goal every hole is to play it to make par.  Great players don't necessarily make more birdies, they make less mistakes.  The difference in birdies between a scratch player and a 10 handicap are virtually the same.  Being below the hole DOES NOT MATTER while being on the green does.  The goal is to make par then take advantage of the scoring opportunities when they are presented.  The player has to be aggressive to the target, not the flag.  The player does not have to attack flags or be below the hole to score.

 

Par 4's 100 yds and in most of the time you are attacking the flag with a wedge in hand.  There are times when the flag is in the back of the green, tucked behind water or sand that the player just doesn't want to attack and hit middle of the green.  Outside of 100 fat part of the green regardless of up or downhill.

 

Par 3's the player should always attack the middle of the green.  Hardest holes on the course where the player can't pick their own distance.  Middle of the Green always gives the player a great chance to make a par on a par 3.

 

Par 5's are generally the easiest on the course.  Have to select when to be aggressive when going for them in two.  It is also the only holes that the player can choose the distance of approach shots.  If laying up needs to lay up to favorite distance so the player can be aggressive to the flag.  Par 5's are critical to good rounds and players have to average under Par on them.

 

What is you or your kids approach?

Edited March 20, 2023 by heavy_hitter

[leezer99]

Lots of interesting points. Similarly, I’ve always told my son “take care of the par threes and take advantage of the par fives”. 

This past weekend he played a two day event with some difficult par 5’s exacerbated by wind and rain that he laid up on every one of them. He played the par 5’s under par (T7 out of 65) and played the par 3’s in an abysmal 6 over with a triple on one. 
 

I think you need to look at your dispersion cone and realize that with your six iron it’s going to be a much larger cone than with a gap wedge. This is where Decade can really help kids understand how to properly score on holes. Aiming at a flag that has negative strokes gained trouble nearby is a recipe for disaster. In those instances you have to aim away from the flag to the fat part of the green. 
 

Knowing where to miss is also super important. With his previous coach they came up with a system of where to miss for each possible flag. This helped my son realize how important it is to manage your miss as much as managing your good shots. 
 

I have more to add but need to jump on a call with my team. 

[RmoorePE]

I think your track is right. I always tell my daughter that there is no shame in hitting the middle of the green from 50yards and out. If the flag is in a weird spot, just get it on the green and work out a putt. She doesn't believe me when I say that "not every hole is a birdie hole". 

Generally speaking, she is longer than most players so par 5s and short par 4s are where she scores best. She knows that and gets really frustrated when courses hide the pin on those holes. I keep telling her "most short par 4s are going to have nasty pin locations, that is the point." She will understand someday.

 

However this weekend I played a tournament where being above the hole was almost always a 3 putt. Holes were Sunday tough for the tournament and middle of the green theory didn't work very well. I had 2 occasions where I hit the middle of the green with a good shot, and my lag put dribbled up to the hole, looked in the high side, and then rolled off the green. These holes had to be approached from below the hole, even if you weren't on the green. So while the general rule stands, there are places where a diabolical greens keeper will create exceptions. The only antidote is course knowledge, this was a place where I have only played a couple times so I had none. On one of those occasions a player on the tee box by the green I had just hit onto told me "Nice approach, but you are screwed."

 

[tiger1873]

25 minutes ago, RmoorePE said:

 

 

However this weekend I played a tournament where being above the hole was almost always a 3 putt. Holes were Sunday tough for the tournament and middle of the green theory didn't work very well. I had 2 occasions where I hit the middle of the green with a good shot, and my lag put dribbled up to the hole, looked in the high side, and then rolled off the green. These holes had to be approached from below the hole, even if you weren't on the green. So while the general rule stands, there are places where a diabolical greens keeper will create exceptions. The only antidote is course knowledge, this was a place where I have only played a couple times so I had none. On one of those occasions a player on the tee box by the green I had just hit onto told me "Nice approach, but you are screwed."

 

 

 

The hard part with golf is certain advice is great until for some reason it isn't.    If pin locations are not following USGA guidelines hitting to the center of the green may not actually be the best strategy.

 

Thankfully most tournaments out there do not place pins at strange locations. There are however a few new tournament directors that really doesn't understand how placing a pin on severe slope effects things.  In these cases below the hole is the really the only reasonable way to make it.

 

 

[RmoorePE]

33 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

The hard part with golf is certain advice is great until for some reason it isn't.    If pin locations are not following USGA guidelines hitting to the center of the green may not actually be the best strategy.

 

Thankfully most tournaments out there do not place pins at strange locations. There are however a few new tournament directors that really doesn't understand how placing a pin on severe slope effects things.  In these cases below the hole is the really the only reasonable way to make it.

 

 

After the tournament on Saturday I was talking to the TD who is also the GM for that particular club. They host High School matches every week. My daughters' have a match there this week. I asked him if he was going to move the pins before that he told me "I put them in 'See Spot Run' locations for high school matches, or they will not finish before dark".

[leezer99]

31 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

The hard part with golf is certain advice is great until for some reason it isn't.    If pin locations are not following USGA guidelines hitting to the center of the green may not actually be the best strategy.

 

Thankfully most tournaments out there do not place pins at strange locations. There are however a few new tournament directors that really doesn't understand how placing a pin on severe slope effects things.  In these cases below the hole is the really the only reasonable way to make it.

 

 

There are no rules in the USGA book on where holes can be placed. 
 

And pins are for bowling. Golf has flagsticks and holes. 

[tiger1873]

11 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

There are no rules in the USGA book on where holes can be placed. 
 

And pins are for bowling. Golf has flagsticks and holes. 

 

 

Like always you are clueless.

 

I suggest you read this as there are guidelines the USGA has for hole locations

 

 

https://www.usga.org/course-care/forethegolfer/2018/hole-location--location--location.html

 

.    “We have used different systems over the years, but we are ultimately interested in fairness and balance. We try to create a fairly equal distribution of hole locations between left, right, middle, front and back. We also want a balance of easy, moderate and difficult hole locations that take into account both the difficulty of approach shots and the difficulty of putting to the area of a green where the hole is placed.”

2.    “Contrary to what some golfers might think, we are always encouraging our setup staff to err on the easy side with hole locations. Our theory has always been that a lower score leads to a more enjoyable round, which in turn leads to golfers who are happier with our course and our maintenance practices. We don’t alter that thinking for tournaments either; in fact, we often select even easier hole locations. There is no other time we would rather see players shoot good scores than when they are under the pressure of an important event. Also, pace of play is an important consideration.”

3.    “We keep hole locations a minimum of five paces – approximately 15 feet – from the edges of a green. Many golfers are not aware that while there are rules about the size of the hole and the depth of the liner, there is no rule about how far from the edge of a putting green the hole must be located. In the interest of keeping hole locations on the easy side, we encourage the course setters to minimize the number of holes near the edges of putting greens and to allow extra distance if there is an adjacent hazard. We are especially careful to locate holes even more than 15 feet from the front edge of a putting green, and we are always conscious of measuring five paces from the edge of any false front.”

4.    “We communicate the daily green speed to the setup staff. Hole locations that work at Stimpmeter^® readings of 10 feet are often not appropriate at 11 feet because of putting green slopes.”

5.    “We look for an area where the surface immediately around the hole has minimal ball marks or other blemishes. We also try to avoid being too close to previous hole locations.”

6.    “During wet periods, or when wet weather is forecast, we ask our course setters to choose hole locations where puddling is least likely.”

7.    “We go to great lengths to make sure that the quality of the actual hole is as close to perfect as possible. Holes are cut after the green has been mowed or rolled to ensure that equipment doesn’t damage the edge of the hole. On a daily basis, the hole cutters are hand sharpened to the equivalent of a very sharp knife. Course setters are also trained to carefully use a regulation cup setter, to make sure that the area immediately around the hole is level, and to check that the liner is set at the correct depth.”

8.    “Golfers can help maintain the condition of a hole by being very careful when removing their golf ball and replacing the flag stick.”

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by tiger1873

[leezer99]

Those are all from course superintendents. They are making judgment calls. There are no rules addressing where a hole is placed. I’ve had this conversation with PGA rules officials so please continue to show how little you know about the rules. 
 

[hangontight]

Great topic.  I would agree with your take, but curious what the opposing view is?   Great book I am reading now called The Four Foundations of Golf - puts all of this into Laymans terms....and backs it up with stats (like the amount of birdies /round for a 10 Handicap vs. Scratch that you cited).  Easy read, highly reccomend.     Good for expectation management. 

 

Biggest strategy/focus lately  - MISS ON FAT SIDE:  Off season tmnt in January - convinced him of the basic concept of missing on fat side.....He was 7/10 up & downs on the weekend.....6/7 when he missed on the fat side, and 1/3 when he missed on the short side ( man I wish he missed that one to drive the point home!     

 

Other than that...His strategy I think is mostly how you laid it out.   He used to be terrible at par 3's but has improved dramatically going to middle. 

[Movingday]

30 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

Many golfers are not aware that while there are rules about the size of the hole and the depth of the liner, there is no rule about how far from the edge of a putting green the hole must be located.

This is literally in the article you used to say they are rules about where a hole can be placed. It’s truly amazing how you stare facts in the face and continue to argue against them. 

[tiger1873]

15 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

Those are all from course superintendents. They are making judgment calls. There are no rules addressing where a hole is placed. I’ve had this conversation with PGA rules officials so please continue to show how little you know about the rules. 
 

 

Look no one said there the rules they are guidelines and recommendations.   The best competitions and rules committees follow these guidelines because it makes sense.    Everyone knows about these guidelines.

 

If someone doesn't follow the guidelines then you have to ask yourself why they do not if they have people traveling and have limited knowledge of the course. 

 

Know one wants conditions to be like this

 

https://www.insider.com/video-18th-green-unfair-iowa-womens-golf-tournament-2022-5

[tiger1873]

1 minute ago, Movingday said:

This is literally in the article you used to say they are rules about where a hole can be placed. It’s truly amazing how you stare facts in the face and continue to argue against them. 

 

So you like holes not following these guidelines???????????????????    Come on grow up.  What sort of bush league do you play.

[hangontight]

Another (thread) bites the dust.... too bad.  Great topic.

[hangontight]

so @heavy_hitter what was the opposing view?

[heavy_hitter]

31 minutes ago, hangontight said:

Great topic.  I would agree with your take, but curious what the opposing view is?   Great book I am reading now called The Four Foundations of Golf - puts all of this into Laymans terms....and backs it up with stats (like the amount of birdies /round for a 10 Handicap vs. Scratch that you cited).  Easy read, highly reccomend.     Good for expectation management. 

 

Biggest strategy/focus lately  - MISS ON FAT SIDE:  Off season tmnt in January - convinced him of the basic concept of missing on fat side.....He was 7/10 up & downs on the weekend.....6/7 when he missed on the fat side, and 1/3 when he missed on the short side ( man I wish he missed that one to drive the point home!     

 

Other than that...His strategy I think is mostly how you laid it out.   He used to be terrible at par 3's but has improved dramatically going to middle. 

To attack every pin from any distance all while trying to keep the ball below the flag.

[Movingday]

45 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

55 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

There are no rules in the USGA book on where holes can be placed. 
 

And pins are for bowling. Golf has flagsticks and holes. 

Expand  

 

 

Like always you are clueless.

 

I’ll just leave this here. 
 

@hangontight I won’t respond to him again in this thread. Just get tired of his nonsense in every single thread. 
 

please carry on 

[Movingday]

Just now, heavy_hitter said:

To attack every pin from any distance all while trying to keep the ball below the flag.

That’s dumb

[heavy_hitter]

Attacking a flag in the back of a green is poor course management unless it is a perfect number.  Hitting over the green on most courses to a short flag is asking for disaster.

[Bizzle80]

7 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

Attacking a flag in the back of a green is poor course management unless it is a perfect number.  Hitting over the green on most courses to a short flag is asking for disaster.

 

Course strategy has to match up with player tendencies as well. My kids' miss is slight right push, so on approach we play to make sure the miss doesn't hurt her. Left tucked pin - go for it as a miss leaves us in middle of green. Right side flag? Aim to middle and let the miss be at the hole.

 

We watched a poor girl we played with this weekend go at every flag and get left in brutal up and down situations. Several spots where long was dead, but she went after flags, hit it a hair thin and off the back into short sided rough. Mine played a club short and was middle of green putting up hill to the hole.

 

Definitely have to understand where you CAN'T miss and what your misses are.

 

We watch a lot of these girls in SoCal with non-golfing parents that are grinding their kids swings - but not teaching them any course management skills. Every one of these kids lines up in the middle of the tee box and aims straight down the fairway. Poor girl lost last week when her really nice high draw off the tee kept taking her into hazards and deep rough - she could have easily played left to right from the tee and would have been in middle of every fairway...but its not my job to teach their kids how to aim.

 

 

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

There are different phases of a junior golfer.  At first you want that junior to just bomb the ball.  "Hey you see that Hank?  My kid out drove yours!" 

 

You move along to course management and understanding when to aim at the middle of the green.  Understanding where the miss is located. 

 

Understanding when its a full on green light attack.

 

Example:

 

Do I attack a pin 8 paces on from the right with a steep collection area when I am a fader of the ball.  Middle of the green.

 

I agree with @heavy_hitteralways want to be putting hole high.

 

As the juniors advance as well they will understand the sections of the greens.

 

 

[Medson]

43 minutes ago, Bizzle80 said:

Course strategy has to match up with player tendencies as well. My kids' miss is slight right push, so on approach we play to make sure the miss doesn't hurt her. Left tucked pin - go for it as a miss leaves us in middle of green. Right side flag? Aim to middle and let the miss be at the hole.

 

Allow me to tell you a story about matching up with player's tendencies. Last round, 

• Hole #1: Push. 
• Hole #2: Slight push. 
• Hole #3: Push again. 

On hole #4, I told my daughter since you are pushing it today, why don't you aim more left. 

 

Oh yeah, I bet you know where this story is going. 

 

Not only she did not push the shot, she pulled it! 

[leezer99]

@Movingday Yeah, you’re the one playing bush league events when that other user is the one that whines about course setup and condition in every thread. Lol

 

 

[Medson]

1 hour ago, heavy_hitter said:

To attack every pin from any distance all while trying to keep the ball below the flag.

 

The green and hole are pretty vanilla. Pin is on the right side of green. Daughter is aiming left edge of the green. I was like "what are you doing?" She said "You told me to miss on the fat side of the green"

 

Someone smack me please. 

[J_Tizzle]

Learning how to manage yourself around a course is the quickest way to differentiate yourself as a jr golfer.

 

Or take the approach I had where I pretty much was thrilled when I hit 8 greens a round and just let my chipping be the deciding factor.  Hell 25 years later and my 1-2 handicap is essentially "how well did I chip it today".

[hangontight]

Really, read this book.   Helps manage expectations, ideas around how to practice, etc.  Easy reading, pick up put down.  Good Stuff

 

 

 

[leezer99]

42 minutes ago, hangontight said:

Really, read this book.   Helps manage expectations, ideas around how to practice, etc.  Easy reading, pick up put down.  Good Stuff

 

 

 

+1 but make sure you also follow Jon Sherman @practicalgolf on Twitter. 

[Movingday]

10 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

+1 but make sure you also follow Jon Sherman @practicalgolf on Twitter. 

And listen to his podcast with Adam Young “The Sweet Spot”

[tiger1873]

19 minutes ago, Movingday said:

And listen to his podcast with Adam Young “The Sweet Spot”

 

Hate to break it you but listening to endless podcasts isn't going to make you or your kid better.

 

To do that you need to actually go out build skill and learn what works for you.

 

Everyone has a different swing and skill that largly determines how and where you attack Flags.  If there was an easy solution everyone would be shooting under par.

 

But go ahead listen to the podcast and waste your time looking for that ben hogan secret. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by tiger1873

[Kcct82]

[Movingday]

11 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

The player has to be aggressive to the target, not the flag.  The player does not have to attack flags or be below the hole to score.

This is what we try to do. Pick good targets based on hole position, hazards, etc. Then make an aggressive swing to that target. That doesn’t always mean aiming at the center of the green, but it does try to eliminate the big number. Try being the key word.