Discussion on How/Where to Hit Approach Shots to Score

[leezer99]

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

15 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Hate to break it you but listening to endless podcasts isn't going to make you or your kid better.

 

To do that you need to actually go out build skill and learn what works for you.

 

Everyone has a different swing and skill that largly determines how and where you attack Flags.  If there was an easy solution everyone would be shooting under par.

 

But go ahead listen to the podcast and waste your time looking for that ben hogan secret. 

Why crap on people if they wanna listen or read anything?

 

Different topic, but I knew zero about recruiting before my son.  I read articles and listened to hours of endless to better educate myself.

 Isn't that the same here?

 

I believe there is a saying and I dont have the direct quote.

 

A wise person listens to everyone and chooses the best advice for him/her.

A fool listens to no one.

[tiger1873]

42 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

Why crap on people if they wanna listen or read anything?

 

Different topic, but I knew zero about recruiting before my son.  I read articles and listened to hours of endless to better educate myself.

 Isn't that the same here?

 

I believe there is a saying and I dont have the direct quote.

 

A wise person listens to everyone and chooses the best advice for him/her.

A fool listens to no one.

 

 The response was more about who posted this then anything else.  A few people around here need to grow up and derail threads. 

 

My guess they will respond to this with another stupid response instead of actually trying to contribute and texting each other about it because they feel some need to be vindicated for something no-one did to them.

[Bizzle80]

I find podcasts and some books incredibly helpful to my golf game, and certainly has made me a better caddy. Teaching my kid course strategy at a young age already helping her compete against the 'mini-tour pro' everyday players her age. They might have more consistent swings, but she's managing the course better. It shows you how 'golf swing' is NOT golf game.

 

I would also recommend listening to golf podcasts with your kids. We are on so many golf road trips, I like to always start out with podcasts when we drive. Anything to build her enjoyment and love of the game...and so many good interviews out there with her favorite golfers...

 

Funny, The Golfers Journal podcast just had the Practical Golf guy on, and it was very enlightening.

[ShortGolfer]

It really helps to have someone scout the greens to discover "unfair"  greens.  The ones in which if you miss from the high side the ball will always roll  all the way to the fringe of the green.

With some holes, I have a better chance of making par from a deep bunker than being on the high side of the hole.  Usually a bogey at worst putting uphill after the bunker shot.

If I miss from the high side and it rolls all the way to the fringe I'm potentially looking at a big number, as putting from the collar of the green is hard. 

Edited March 21 by ShortGolfer

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

1 hour ago, Bizzle80 said:

I find podcasts and some books incredibly helpful to my golf game, and certainly has made me a better caddy. Teaching my kid course strategy at a young age already helping her compete against the 'mini-tour pro' everyday players her age. They might have more consistent swings, but she's managing the course better. It shows you how 'golf swing' is NOT golf game.

 

I would also recommend listening to golf podcasts with your kids. We are on so many golf road trips, I like to always start out with podcasts when we drive. Anything to build her enjoyment and love of the game...and so many good interviews out there with her favorite golfers...

 

Funny, The Golfers Journal podcast just had the Practical Golf guy on, and it was very enlightening.

Agree.  Like I said I never listened to junior golf podcast about playing.  My son was 14 already at the time and was fairly set.

 

I learned a lot of little tricks about recruiting some podcasts or guests on podcast talking if they could do something over.  It would be "a, b, and c."

 

I'm a excel man, but never thought it use it to track schools. 

 

You can setup variables that you can sort on once you have junior input all the data.

[jj9000]

[Movingday]

What about when you know you need some birdies. Either late in a round and you know you’re down a few or going into a second round where you think you need a low number to win. Does this make for more aggressive targets? If so how aggressive? Or are you staying patient and keeping the same targets regardless 

[RobS]

I  agree in concept.  Game plan to hit greens, make pars, avoid bogeys and the birdies work themselves out.  Where I modify it a little is the target.  I like a 'safe' area on the green that provides some margin for a miss based on typical shot pattern and trouble around the green.  That may frequently be middle of the green but not always.....typical Decade concept. 

 

I do like below the hole for some scenarios.  Above the hole on courses with fast and severely sloped greens can lead to a high probability of 3 putts.  With that being said, I don't like a below the hole target with a significant risk of being short of the green.  I'm in the camp of on the green with a 20' putt is preferred over being off the green with a 10' pitch or chip. 

 

On par 5's I like going for the green or getting as close as possible unless a minor to moderate miss is dead or an increased chance of bogey.  I don't like laying back to hit a yardage.  Closer the better unless the player is yippy on partial wedge shots.

[leezer99]

I’m still baffled by the podcast comment about it being a waste of time. There are so many good ones out there. I think others have spoken to the benefits so I won’t get into the absurdity of the statement. Even more baffling is thinking any junior should try and leave the ball below the hole. Good luck implementing that philosophy when a third of the hole locations are generally at the front of the green.  

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, RobS said:

I  agree in concept.  Game plan to hit greens, make pars, avoid bogeys and the birdies work themselves out.  Where I modify it a little is the target.  I like a 'safe' area on the green that provides some margin for a miss based on typical shot pattern and trouble around the green.  That may frequently be middle of the green but not always.....typical Decade concept. 

 

I do like below the hole for some scenarios.  Above the hole on courses with fast and severely sloped greens can lead to a high probability of 3 putts.  With that being said, I don't like a below the hole target with a significant risk of being short of the green.  I'm in the camp of on the green with a 20' putt is preferred over being off the green with a 10' pitch or chip. 

 

On par 5's I like going for the green or getting as close as possible unless a minor to moderate miss is dead or an increased chance of bogey.  I don't like laying back to hit a yardage.  Closer the better unless the player is yippy on partial wedge shots.

Would you rather have a 5’ downhill putt on a 2% slope or a 7’ uphill putt on the same hole with 2% slope?

[RobS]

54 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

Would you rather have a 5’ downhill putt on a 2% slope or a 7’ uphill putt on the same hole with 2% slope?

At 2% I'm generally taking the 5' putt.  If the greens run over 10, there's a little more to think about.  Does the putt break?  Are the greens true?

[leezer99]

6 minutes ago, RobS said:

At 2% I'm generally taking the 5' putt.  If the greens run over 10, there's a little more to think about.  Does the putt break?  Are the greens true?

Doesn’t matter. The 5’ downhill has a 71% make rate versus a 53% make rate from 7’ going uphill. If the green is true or not has no bearing. It’s not like the downhill putt will be less or more true than the uphill putt and the break will be the same. 
 

[chisag]

On 3/20/2023 at 11:24 AM, heavy_hitter said:

To attack every pin from any distance all while trying to keep the ball below the flag.

 

 

... So much going on in this thread. I view every holes as a birdie standing on the tee. My goal is not par, it is birdie. But then every shot dictates the next shot and my goal can and does change rapidly. 

... Below the hole can be completely irrelevant. Slope, speed, grain all make a difference. I play an upscale muni and it hosts lots of tournaments including a pre qualifier for the Phoenix Open and the state AGA Championship this past Thur-Sun. Greens usually run around a 10 but they were between 12-13 for the tourney and yes, most holes you were better off below the hole. But when rolling at 10 that isn't always the case.

... We also only have 4 holes where going over the green is a disaster and I club and play accordingly. Ironically the longest par 4 playing 430 has a huge tier on the back 1/3rd of the green. Not really a tier because it slopes radically on both sides. When the pin is over the tier on the back 1/3rd my target is over the green. Putting from the fringe or even chipping back uphill from the light rough is better than putting with enough speed to get over the tier but not too much so it rolls off the green. Hitting to the middle is a bogie waiting to happen. It is a diabolical hole. 

... Combined with some days I feel like I can hit any target and other days is a struggle all round long so that has a bearing on where I am playing to on any green. Obviously taking on a flag where a short side miss can result in an impossible up and down or a flag near a tier or mound of severe slope are both flags I don't attack, even with a wedge. The bottom line for me is there is no formula for every round I play. I think every shot on every course on any given day is different and playing one stroke at a time is the only way to play to your potential. 

Pin sheet for the final and you will notice 10 back pins and none near the middle of the green. Some were impossible to get below the hole:




 

[RobS]

51 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

Doesn’t matter. The 5’ downhill has a 71% make rate versus a 53% make rate from 7’ going uphill. If the green is true or not has no bearing. It’s not like the downhill putt will be less or more true than the uphill putt and the break will be the same. 
 

It all does matter.  If the putt also breaks 2%, the percentage between 5' down and 7' up narrows to 9%. (Downhill putts generally break more than uphill as they are hit at different speeds).  The consideration is what happens after you miss the downhill putt on a 2% green rolling faster than 10.  If the greens are rolling 8-10, the 5' is an easy decision.  If the greens are truly fast, that 30% of the time you miss the 5' you will be at risk of a 3 putt.  If the greens aren't true, the chance of miss increases for either putt.  Again, the consideration is what happens with the missed putt.  

[leezer99]

8 hours ago, RobS said:

It all does matter.  If the putt also breaks 2%, the percentage between 5' down and 7' up narrows to 9%. (Downhill putts generally break more than uphill as they are hit at different speeds).  The consideration is what happens after you miss the downhill putt on a 2% green rolling faster than 10.  If the greens are rolling 8-10, the 5' is an easy decision.  If the greens are truly fast, that 30% of the time you miss the 5' you will be at risk of a 3 putt.  If the greens aren't true, the chance of miss increases for either putt.  Again, the consideration is what happens with the missed putt.  

 

I have never seen such flawed logic in all of my life.  

 

Lets try this another way... you have two putts to choose from to save the life of your child. One has a make rate of 70% and one has a make rate of 50%. Which putt are you choosing?

[MahalNeneng]

There are no opinions on the topic just stats. Its all there if you “want” to see it.
 

in short away from the hole within your dispersion so that you hit the green. DECADE 

[RobS]

30 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

 

I have never seen such flawed logic in all of my life.  

 

Lets try this another way... you have two putts to choose from to save the life of your child. One has a make rate of 70% and one has a make rate of 50%. Which putt are you choosing?

How about this.....have you ever seen a 5' downhill put that misses and leaves you a longer putt coming back?  If the only thing that matters is one putt, of course you take the higher percentage putt.  You're responding as if I generically said I would always take a 7' uphill putt over a 5' downhill putt.  I never said that.  I said there were situations where I would choose the 7' putt.  At 2%, as I said, I generally taking the 5' putt.  It's sounds like you would take the 5' putt over the 7' every time based on the percentages, regardless of slope, speed, break or green quality.  I wouldn't and I'm sure I'm not the only player that has seen a downhill 5' putt slowly roll by the hole and not stop within a high percentage make distance.

 

 

[leezer99]

1 minute ago, RobS said:

How about this.....have you ever seen a 5' downhill put that misses and leaves you a longer putt coming back?  If the only thing that matters is one putt, of course you take the higher percentage putt.  You're responding as if I generically said I would always take a 7' uphill putt over a 5' downhill putt.  I never said that.  I said there were situations where I would choose the 7' putt.  At 2%, as I said, I generally taking the 5' putt.  It's sounds like you would take the 5' putt over the 7' every time based on the percentages, regardless of slope, speed, break or green quality.  I wouldn't and I'm sure I'm not the only player that has seen a downhill 5' putt slowly roll by the hole and not stop within a high percentage make distance.

 

 

 

I think you and I are seeing things differently. I am trying to shoot the lowest score possible and you are trying not to shoot a high score. 

[cav5]

This convo is so tired. The only answer is to be "realistic". If its severely sloped obviously its better to be below, but the only way to hit it 1 foot below the hole is to risk hitting it 15 feet by. Thats fine with me. Its only a problem if its really severe and a comeback putt under 4 feet isn't plausible, or your miss becomes a scramble.

Edited March 22 by cav5

[leezer99]

8 minutes ago, dfwgolf said:

 

You have a lot to learn. Speed of the green matters.

I respectfully think you are wrong. Speed of the putts you hit are what matters. Ultra fast or ultra slow greens... only thing that matters is the speed of the putt if you want to make putts.

[heavy_hitter]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:24 PM, Movingday said:

What about when you know you need some birdies. Either late in a round and you know you’re down a few or going into a second round where you think you need a low number to win. Does this make for more aggressive targets? If so how aggressive? Or are you staying patient and keeping the same targets regardless 

I think you need to be more aggressive at the Flags in this situation.  My kid played in an Invitational this past weekend.  Made the turn in 5th place and was +5 at the time.  Hard course with replaced grass 8 months ago.  Greens were like rocks and made proximity difficult.  He has a 100 yd 60 degree approach on 10 which is a par 5.  Flag is front left maybe 3 paces from the ball going into the water.  He goes at the flag which was the wrong time and dunks it in the water taking a double.  +3 won and that double took him out of it.  If that location is on the last hole then go for it, but not on 10.

Edited March 22 by heavy_hitter

[Movingday]

2 minutes ago, dfwgolf said:

 

You are talking in absolutes and to say you don't take the speed of greens into account when you want to make putts  tells me you have a lot to learn.

 

Don't know why you didn't read @RobS and not understand that he talking about in certain situations.

This writing style seems oddly familiar, but I can’t quite place it 

[heavy_hitter]

48 minutes ago, cav5 said:

This convo is so tired. The only answer is to be "realistic". If its severely sloped obviously its better to be below, but the only way to hit it 1 foot below the hole is to risk hitting it 15 feet by. Thats fine with me. Its only a problem if its really severe and a comeback putt under 4 feet isn't plausible, or your miss becomes a scramble.

In Florida, which is where we are talking, there is rarely anything over 2 degrees.  Unless we are talking a US Open or Augusta National, below or above the hole is a mute point in most cases.

Edited March 22 by heavy_hitter

[RobS]

5 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

I think you and I are seeing things differently. I am trying to shoot the lowest score possible and you are trying not to shoot a high score. 

I look at avoiding bogeys as part of trying to shoot a low score.   On tough courses with difficult greens, guys with clean cards tend to fare well.  On courses that surrender a lot of birdies and have a bunch of guys going under par, the greens are generally not going to be very challenging and the risks are pretty low on the greens.  Different scenarios require different strategies.  I just try to calculate the risks.  I played go for broke golf for years.  It can be a lot of fun and there's a right time for it, but I don't think it a universal strategy for tournament play.

[596]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:51 PM, leezer99 said:

Those are all from course superintendents. They are making judgment calls. There are no rules addressing where a hole is placed. I’ve had this conversation with PGA rules officials so please continue to show how little you know about the rules. 
 

Correct me if I am wrong.  But I don't think there is any actual rule that says the hole MUST be placed on the green.  I always wanted to put one on the fringe but I figured I'd get fired! 😊

[Pepperturbo]

From many years playing in Tournaments, Interclub Match-play and regional events, There is NO absolute WHERE to "strategy."  Match-play and Stroke-play, situations and conditions vary, often times from hole to hole.  The reason it's said, keep it simple, stay in-the-moment, and take one shot at a time.

[kekoa]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:24 PM, Movingday said:

What about when you know you need some birdies. Either late in a round and you know you’re down a few or going into a second round where you think you need a low number to win. Does this make for more aggressive targets? If so how aggressive? Or are you staying patient and keeping the same targets regardless 

No choice but to go pin hunting.  Start playing too conservative and trying to guard against making bogeys and you can very easily move down the leaderboard.  

 

The above is assuming the kid has the skill to do so.  Wanting to go for a pin tucked right with bunker in the front and water to the right sounds good, but executing under pressure is a whole other ball of wax. 

[hangontight]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:24 PM, Movingday said:

What about when you know you need some birdies. Either late in a round and you know you’re down a few or going into a second round where you think you need a low number to win. Does this make for more aggressive targets? If so how aggressive? Or are you staying patient and keeping the same targets regardless 

Even in second (or last) round and you know you need a number, you stick to your hole by hole plan for that day that give you a chance to contend....then of course adjust accordingly.  But I think staying patient & true to your plan gives you better odds than just pin hunting every hole.    Now, the situation changes completely if you have 2 holes left and HAVE to score.  At that point its a simple question of did you come here for a safe second or are you going to take the game winning shot?  

 

Last week my son needed a birdie on 18 to shoot his PR at our home course.   Pin was back right top shelf.   The "strategy" with this pin is always safe shot to middle and 2 putt which would still a great round, but its just a Wednesday evening round...so go for it.  He hit a great shot  , but barely trickles off back of green and short sided down slope....bogey, doesnt get his PR.   But it was a good stress test for what inevitably will be a real life tmnt situation.    Was cool to watch.