Fitting inconsistency

[e-man]

Hey guys.  Need some help.  I’m a 5.4 index.  Good ball striker.  55 years old.   Swing speed 90mph with the driver.  Currently play AP1 710s with Nippon 105t steel shafts in reg flex (108g).   7 iron 145 yards. 
 

I wanted something lighter and more modern.  I got fitted as Golftec for the Mizuno 923 Hot Metal Pro, Steelfiber 95 regular (95g).   I didn’t completely trust the fitting because we ran out of time and I didn’t get a chance to try many other shafts.  So I went for a second fitting at a different place and got fitted for Mitsubishi MMT 70 (73g) in reg flex.  Because this shaft was so different from the Steelfiber, I went to a demo day today at PGA Tour Superstore and the Mizuno guy fit me for steel KBS Taper 120g stiff.  Yes, crazy.  
 

At this point, I have no idea what to do.  I understand we swing differently on different days, but these results are so wildly different that none of it makes any sense to me.

[Phabs]

What shaft felt the best to you… not what was recommended as a $$$$ sale for someone’s quota.  That’s pretty much all that matters 

 

[e-man]

On each day, the recommended shaft felt the best. However, since initially being fitted for the Steelfiber i95 reg, I’ve hit the shaft multiple times in other clubs and it just doesn’t feel right to me.  
 

The KBS S Taper 120 stiff felt great.  

[hammergolf]

1 hour ago, e-man said:

Hey guys.  Need some help.  I’m a 5.4 index.  Good ball striker.  55 years old.   Swing speed 90mph with the driver.  Currently play AP1 710s with Nippon 105t steel shafts in reg flex (108g).   7 iron 145 yards. 
 

I wanted something lighter and more modern.  I got fitted as Golftec for the Mizuno 923 Hot Metal Pro, Steelfiber 95 regular (95g).   I didn’t completely trust the fitting because we ran out of time and I didn’t get a chance to try many other shafts.  So I went for a second fitting at a different place and got fitted for Mitsubishi MMT 70 (73g) in reg flex.  Because this shaft was so different from the Steelfiber, I went to a demo day today at PGA Tour Superstore and the Mizuno guy fit me for steel KBS Taper 120g stiff.  Yes, crazy.  
 

At this point, I have no idea what to do.  I understand we swing differently on different days, but these results are so wildly different that none of it makes any sense to me.

Try to hit the different shafts on the same day. I actually have played i95 and MMT 70 shafts. They are nowhere close to performing the same. Steelfiber is much stiffer, in fact they play more like a stiff flex in my opinion. I would make a fitting appointment where you can hit all of the shafts at the same time and make your decision.

[Cwebb]

You may be someone who quickly adjusts to different shafts.   Try to figure out if there is one that produces tighter dispersion for you.... and/or "promotes" a swing tempo feel that you prefer

[Jeff58]

If you went to the first locations and told them you wanted something lighter and more modern, they’re rightfully going to put you in a lighter CF shaft and optimize for distance over other factors.

 

if you go to Mizuno, they’re likely going to use their shaft optimizer, and you’ll end up with what they consider the best impact/launch solution, distance be damned.

 

We, as highly trained/biased WRX people, tend to be able to look past raw distance as the most significant factor, and generally correctly so. However, at a 90mph driver SS, you’re really at the point that it is rather significant. You need to do what the other posters have said IMO and try them all at once, and let the data make the decision.

[3step]

There is one voice that matters most. If the 95 Aerotech’s are not doing it for you, and the KBS model “still feel great”. I think this is the voice that you should listen to most.

 

Different fitting recommendations are a real problem in our industry, but in your case, it sounds like you have tested several times and not having repeatable success with the lighter stuff, but doing well with the KBS model. It seems like you have done the testing and have your answer.

 

3step

 

 

[dblinden]

Not sure why it's called a "fitting". Shouldn't be called a "selling"? Has there ever been a real study of the reliability of equipment recommendations? If so, I've never seen one. For those interested, that's called inter-rater reliability. Without reliability, there can be no validity. What would people think if they had a medical condition and had 10 different medication recommendations from 10 different providers?   

[e-man]

OP here.  Thanks so much for all the helpful responses guys. To the one poster who mentioned that I told the fitter I was looking for something lighter, you are absolutely right and I hadn’t considered that.  I told him (and the second fitter) that I was looking for lighter, so that’s exactly what they both fit me for.  It wasn’t until the fitter used the Mizuno shaft optimizer in the third fitting where my comments about going lighter were pretty much disregarded and we just went with what the shaft optimizer said.  
 

I don’t want this fitting process to stand in the way of me getting new clubs.  I really like those HM pros but if the whole point of this was I’m getting older, swing speed is slowing down, my current clubs are too heavy, need something lighter, etc., etc., how can I possibly justify spending $1,000+ on a new set of irons with KBS S taper 120g stiff flex steel shafts.  Just doesn’t seem like it’s a good move in the long term.  And at that point, I should probably just stick with my current AP1 710s with 108g shafts.  
 

Thanks again for all the responses.  Really appreciated.  
 

e

[K48]

What made you think you needed lighter? Shouldn’t the results of reviewing the launch data with distance, dispersion etc help make a decision of the fit?

[e-man]

I thought I needed lighter because my current clubs (AP1 710s with Nippon 105t reg flex shafts), which I’ve been playing for about 8 seasons, are feeling heavy to me.  My yardages have also decreased (7 iron, 145 max, a few years ago it was 150). But if the fitting results are telling me to go heavier, I would probably just stick with what I have.  I’m 55, not getting any younger and my swing will only get slower over the next several years. 

[WristySwing]

6 hours ago, dblinden said:

Not sure why it's called a "fitting". Shouldn't be called a "selling"? Has there ever been a real study of the reliability of equipment recommendations? If so, I've never seen one. For those interested, that's called inter-rater reliability. Without reliability, there can be no validity. What would people think if they had a medical condition and had 10 different medication recommendations from 10 different providers?   

 

You could turn this around and say the exact same thing about lessons, too.  The problem with golf is that it is almost entirely dependent on the player to actually do something.  You can fit a head and shaft to a player's general tendencies but that player still needs to make a swing that halfway resembles the swing they brought to the fitting.  Same thing with a coach --- you can have the best coach on earth contorting you into the proper positions but that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot if you can't feel those sensations on the course and cannot get yourself back into those positions when you practice even when you "feel" like you are doing the same things.

 

To use your medical analogy, this completely takes the person away from actually having to do anything.  They have the natural biology of a body doing whatever it is does naturally and artificially introduce chemicals that stimulate your natural biology to do that thing.  However, that is not even guaranteed to work, either.  There are staggering amounts of side effects for any medical procedure that can often be equally, if not more debilitating, than the standard medical illness.  Just listen to a drug commercial, where some side effects include terminal cancers and such.  I'll keep my diabetes or whatever and save the lymphoma for another day, thanks.

 

Here are a couple of articles that have shown fitting does show some signs of improvement:

 

https://golf.com/gear/1-stat-fitting-matters-fit-factor/

 

https://scramble.golftec.com/blog/2018/09/should-you-take-lessons-before-fitted-golf-clubs/  (This one is probably more shocking since GolfTec does both lessons and fittings and claims the fittings are almost instant fixes)

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2020/03/30/proper-club-fitting-gain-yards-improve-game/

 

You could do a search for some longer term reviews on fitted clubs.  There are some threads on that do show improvements over time.

[e-man]

Just realized something.  The Mizuno optimizer had me swinging the 7 iron at 80 mph.  That just can’t be right.  Last time I was fit about 10 years ago, I was swinging a 6 iron at 80 mph.  My current driver swing speed is right at 90 mph,  so 80 just can’t be accurate.  
 

 

[TKS]

As a fitter, dropping shaft weight in irons is a challenge. My experience says 20gram is about it. Then add some headweight to get some feel if staying in the same bend profile range. I've never had good initial results in going from 130/120gr to 70/80gr.  People in the 120s fair pretty well down to 100gr, then check for SW and flex fit, not forgetting lie. 

Don't plan on improved swingspeed of more than a couple mph if any at all. Lighter usually benefits endurance and if graphite is deployed- wrist and elbow recovery.

[WristySwing]

7 hours ago, e-man said:

Just realized something.  The Mizuno optimizer had me swinging the 7 iron at 80 mph.  That just can’t be right.  Last time I was fit about 10 years ago, I was swinging a 6 iron at 80 mph.  My current driver swing speed is right at 90 mph,  so 80 just can’t be accurate.  
 

 

 

The Mizuno Optimizer is notorious for overestimating speed and suggesting very stiff shafts.  I used it almost exclusively when I worked at a big box store and almost every time I used it, one of the first 3 shafts were typically correct, but the flex was usually way off.  For instance, I had someone with your speed, maybe a little less come in and it recommended PX LZ 6.5.  They ended up with the LZ 5.0.  After a while I just used it kind of as a show, because it looks cool and "scientific" and would let the person hit the top 2 shafts but make a note of what they were and grab something I thought more appropriate.  More often than not my pick was the winner.

 

Going back to your original conundrum, I would suggest taking some time away for a week or two and go in fresh.  Right now your head is spinning because you have 3 wildly different fittings.  Where were you fit for the second fit?  It sounds like all of these were cheap and/or free fits.  You mention a Mizuno tech rep in one of those.  If you have the means, I would strongly suggest paying $100 and going to a place like Club Champion, True Spec, or some other decently regarded local fitting studio.  That way you can try a bunch of different shafts and heads on the same day to compare them to one another.  Usually these fitters are better than what you will typically see wandering the floors of a big box store (not always, but usually).  Does it cost extra to be fit?  Yes.  Are they going to try and sell you a head + shaft + grip?  Yes, but you counter with that you want to stick to OEM shafts and pricing and any good fitter will accommodate. However, the benefits are that you are going to be under the watchful eye of someone who typically knows what they are doing, will have the ability to explain why something works, and not just hand you a bunch of stuff and say "hmmm, that worked, okay here you go".

Edited March 27, 2023 by WristySwing

[e-man]

Wristy, to answer your questions: first fitting was at Golftec ($95); second fitting was at PXG ($50); third fitting was at PGA Superstore (demo day, with Mizuno optimizer, no fee).  All fittings were within 10 days of each other.  My swing was good on all 3 days.  I’m a 5.4 index and pretty consistent above average ball striker and each fit seemed to produce good results.  
 

The more I’ve been reading about the Mizuno optimizer though, the more I’m seeing that it often times recommends heavier and stiffer.   That said, it worked for me but I do question the fact that it measured me swinging a 7 iron 80 mph.  I’ve been working a lot on trackman this winter so I know my driver swing speed is 90-91 and max ball speed comes in right at 135.  

[jeffrey r]

1 hour ago, e-man said:

Wristy, to answer your questions: first fitting was at Golftec ($95); second fitting was at PXG ($50); third fitting was at PGA Superstore (demo day, with Mizuno optimizer, no fee).  All fittings were within 10 days of each other.  My swing was good on all 3 days.  I’m a 5.4 index and pretty consistent above average ball striker and each fit seemed to produce good results.  
 

The more I’ve been reading about the Mizuno optimizer though, the more I’m seeing that it often times recommends heavier and stiffer.   That said, it worked for me but I do question the fact that it measured me swinging a 7 iron 80 mph.  I’ve been working a lot on trackman this winter so I know my driver swing speed is 90-91 and max ball speed comes in right at 135.  

 

Sure, I think a lot of us would benefit from heavier and stiffer in iron shafts, but our bodies might not agree... No disrespect intended, but you've been around the block, and don't you kind of know what works for you? 

 

In my case (turning 50 soon), I need to balance the performance aspect with mere ability to keep playing.  For that reason, I switched to graphite iron shafts, and can now play virtually pain free after years of sore elbows, and almost needing rotator cuff surgery like 10 years ago when I was much younger. 

 

Anyway, within that balancing act, is that I have failed miserably with any shafts (steel or graphite) under 95g.  That includes MMT 80 stiff from PXG.  Great shafts, but you can't mask the dramatic weight difference.  So, in your case, going down to an MMT 70 sounds like a real potential for trouble.  And I would be darn wary of going to 120g steel shafts.  Those would be too heavy for me, and would destroy my joints.  Modus Tour 105 or KBS Tour 105 would be one thing, but 120g is quite heavy and stiff.

 

If the profile of the SF i95 isn't for you, there are other graphite shafts in the 95-115g range you might try.  MMT 95/105, SF i110, fc90 and fc 115, KBS TGI/PGI, Recoil 95/110 and the new Dart 105.  I personally play and love the Catalyst 100 6.0 (ss2x), but with my two other favorite sets that I play, one is shafted with SF i95 R, and the other with SF i110 R.  Good luck.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by jeffrey r

[RSLP]

Single digit with Nippon, maybe search in the Zelos line if you want sub 105g?

[e-man]

Jeff — yes, totally been around the block and know what works, which is why I’ve stuck with the AP1 710s for so long with 108g nippons.  Every time I’ve experimented with lighter it just doesn’t work for me, which makes no sense because with a driver SS of 90, I’m definitely not ripping it (at least not compared to others). 
 

So when I turned 50 and now 55, I decided that I need to go lighter.  My clubs feel heavy to me.  I’m not getting any younger and (I assume) things will only get slower from here on out.  
 

I’m kicking myself for walking into each of these fittings telling the fitter that I need lighter than what I have.  It’s absolutely the case that they were all trying to fit me into a weight range based on my comments (except for the Mizuno guy at PGA superstore with the Mizuno shaft optimizer). 
 

 

[jeffrey r]

9 minutes ago, e-man said:

Jeff — yes, totally been around the block and know what works, which is why I’ve stuck with the AP1 710s for so long with 108g nippons.  Every time I’ve experimented with lighter it just doesn’t work for me, which makes no sense because with a driver SS of 90, I’m definitely not ripping it (at least not compared to others). 
 

So when I turned 50 and now 55, I decided that I need to go lighter.  My clubs feel heavy to me.  I’m not getting any younger and (I assume) things will only get slower from here on out.  
 

I’m kicking myself for walking into each of these fittings telling the fitter that I need lighter than what I have.  It’s absolutely the case that they were all trying to fit me into a weight range based on my comments (except for the Mizuno guy at PGA superstore with the Mizuno shaft optimizer). 
 

 

 

Right, I used to like those Nippon shafts from the AP1 710's also.  Kind of fits with my general preference of KBS Tour 105, Modus Tour 105, the old TT XP 105, etc.  Being we are pretty similar, I would not write off the i95 R just yet, and do consider some of the other graphite shafts I threw out.  If a 70g shaft happens to work for you (would be surprising), have at it.  But if not, plenty of other options 90g and up.

[K48]

Did the Mizuno rep explain the numbers to you from the optizmer on how you swing your club, I think you are focusing too much on your speed as the fitting criteria. 
 

You can order a 7 iron per his recommendation and play it to prove if it works for you before buying a new set.  

[st1800e]

2 hours ago, e-man said:

I’m kicking myself for walking into each of these fittings telling the fitter that I need lighter than what I have.

Don’t kick yourself too hard. A good fitter should ask you why you think that?   It would seem to me that the person being fit should explore his thoughts about what he needs, and why, with a fitter. If a fitter doesn’t initiate or entertain that discussion, I would suggest he’s a seller not a fitter.  

[K48]

Club head speed is the speed of your swing (no surprise) 1 is slow 9 is quick.

• Tempo is speed of the change over at the top of the backswing mainly 1 is slow 9 is quick.

• Kick Angle is the amount of kick forward the club head has on the downswing 1 is not very much and 9 is a lot.

• Toe Down is the amount of droop or bowing downwards the shaft has through impact 1 is not a lot and 9 is lots. This one is kind of linked to the three aforementioned.

• Release Factor is whether you release early in the downswing or late. Early release or "casting" results in a higher RF number. Late release or swinging from the inside results in a lower number.

Edited March 29, 2023 by K48