How much will an iron fitting help if I'm currently using clubs not meant for my skill level or swing speed?

[Jbosillo]

I have searched far and wide, and have not been able to find a similar question to my own situation, but I know it has to be a common issue.

 

That being said, I am currently gaming a set of Taylormade RSi2's (2015) with R-flex shafts.  I bought these offline because they looked like a good deal, but had zero idea about shaft flex, or game improvement vs players irons, etc.  The first issue I am looking at is that I have a 105mph driver swing speed and 90mph 7i swing speed, so I should be using stiff flex shafts.  The second issue I am looking at is that these are "players irons" and are for lower handicap players according to all the reviews from 2015.  I am a VERY consistent bogey golfer.  I'm pretty sure my handicap is right at 18 as I shot all 14 rounds last year between 87-93.  So these are not the game improvement irons I should be using.  With a kid I don't have time to put in much practice, I just want to live in the 80's and have no plans on putting in the practice to drop down to a single digit handicap.  Looking back, the RSi1's were the game improvement irons I should have gotten, so have I been making my life much more difficult using these vs something much more forgiving?  All of this leads to the obvious question of "If I upgrade to a set of game improvement irons like T300/Stealth/JPX923HM/G430 with stiff shafts, will my scores noticeably drop due to the added distance, forgiveness, and the fact that they are actually fit for my swing speed/skill level? Or will it only save me a couple strokes and obviously wouldn't be worth the money?"  

 

Sorry for the long post, but I figured getting all the thoughts and information out there can only help getting a more accurate answer.  I know a lot of people will just say "go get a fitting" but I'm not sure how going from something I've used for 7 years (aka comfortable and used to the dynamics) vs 3-4 new designs for half an hour will really give me clarity, given my swing isn't incredibly consistent or technically all that great.  If that is literally the only answer, and I'm just being stubborn, so be it.  But I figured you all might have some helpful information ahead of time.  

 

Side note: If it shouldn't save me many strokes, then I honestly don't understand the point of a fitting.  If I am using clubs not meant for me on two fronts, and getting fit for clubs that "work best for me" won't make much difference, then everyone saying "go get fit" makes zero sense.  Might as well just get a set of T200's or P790's and look good while shooting the same scores. (Trust me, I'm tempted)

[st1800e]

Sounds like you’ve convinced yourself, and immune to input.  

[Jeff58]

Couple of things maybe 🤔 

 

The primary goal of fitting is to optimize launch conditions and trajectory. It’s not going to make you a better golfer because you buy newer equipment. You can put a lousy swing on a perfectly fit and a perfectly mix-fit club and they’ll both suck.

 

RSI2’s were and still are excellent clubs for most players, you included. They are not blades, muscle back, low-capper clubs. The stock shaft is a KBS Tour 105. Again, this was and is a very good shaft.

 

If you were to buy an off the shelf set of P790’s with DG105 S shafts (an excellent club set and shaft combination IMO), the biggest difference you’re likely to see is distance. However, as a player with a significant amount of swing variation, the end result is likely going to be that the P790’s will go further in some direction, though not necessarily the intended one.

 

Your situation is common, that you don’t know how much change you need, and what the benefits of a fitting, which is in itself not entirely objective and concise, will be. Neither do I or anyone else on the internet, since we can’t even see you. There is an optimal solution path though, which is to find an instructor who also does club fitting. They can determine if and when you are in a condition that warrants/allows fitting, can make far more objective assessments of the effects of your current equipment as well as potential solutions.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Jeff58

[Jbosillo]

1 hour ago, st1800e said:

Sounds like you’ve convinced yourself, and immune to input.  

This is exactly why I put the "maybe I'm just being stubborn" part.  My confusion stems from the fact that I see everyone on the internet say new clubs are not going to help you lower your score, only lessons/getting better will.  But then they will also say to go get fitted for clubs instead of just buying random ones off the rack.  So which is it?  Clubs matching your skill set and swing characteristics can help you score lower, or not?  If the answer is "yes, but only maybe 1-2 shots" then who would deem that worthy of $1000?

[Jbosillo]

30 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

Couple of things maybe 🤔 

 

The primary goal of fitting is to optimize launch conditions and trajectory. It’s not going to make you a better golfer because you buy newer equipment. You can put a lousy swing on a perfectly fit and a perfectly mix-fit club and they’ll both suck.

 

RSI2’s were and still are excellent clubs for most players, you included. They are not blades, muscle back, low-capper clubs. The stock shaft is a KBS Tour 105. Again, this was and is a very good shaft.

 

If you were to buy an off the shelf set of P790’s with DG105 S shafts (an excellent club set and shaft combination IMO), the biggest difference you’re likely to see is distance. However, as a player with a significant amount of swing variation, the end result is likely going to be that the P790’s will go further in some direction, though not necessarily the intended one.

 

Your situation is common, that you don’t know how much change you need, and what the benefits of a fitting, which is in itself not entirely objective and concise, will be. Neither do I or anyone else on the internet, since we can’t even see you. There is an optimal solution path though, which is to find an instructor who also does club fitting. They can determine if and when you are in a condition that warrants/allows fitting, can make far more objective assessments of the effects of your current equipment as well as potential solutions.

I get what you are saying, but none of it really answered my main questions.  If someone with my swing speed goes from a regular shaft to a stiff shaft, will that help with consistency enough to lower my scores with that alone?  And for someone with an 18 handicap, will using actual game improvement irons built for higher handicaps, instead of "players irons" built for single digit handicaps, help lower the scores with that alone?  If the answer is yes to both/either, then club fittings make sense to lower your scores by getting clubs that fit better.  If the answer is no, then what's the point of club fittings if you can be as misfit as mine are but it won't make a noticeable difference?  I hope this isn't coming off as combative, I just haven't had anyone be able to answer my questions directly between this post and multiple reddit posts. 

 

Your point about "optimizing launch conditions and trajectory" is interesting as this is the first I'm hearing about that.  Which could be showing my ignorance on the subject given that I have only recently started digging into this stuff.

[st1800e]

13 minutes ago, Jbosillo said:

So which is it?

No succinct answer to that.  A set of clubs that are reasonably close to your skill level will allow you to develop your game with more play and practice.  You said (I think) that your current clubs work reasonably well, so I’d just stick with those.   There’s legions of stories on the forum about bad fittings, no one is going to find a game in a 1 hour fitting session.  Like a lot of us our swing changes from day to day, and the swing you have when fitting indoors isn’t necessarily the swing you have on the golf course.  
Given your restraints on time and practice just keep  playing what you have.  
And no, a $1000+ set of new GI clubs isn’t going to automatically to drop your scores.  Might, but might not.  
 

 

[B.Easy]

You are posing valid questions about fitting and lessons.  Could a shaft change improve your scores?  Maybe.  Will it introduce new problems?  Likely.  Would new fitted clubs drop your handicap?  Maybe.  Could it be a $1,000+ waste of money after you decide to get a few lessons to get some consistency?  Likely, because your swing will change and the old fitting will be rendered ineffective.  

 

Do most people on here purchase equipment instead of lessons to try and get better?  Yes.  

 

If you spent $500 or $1,000 on lessons from a certified PGA instructor (about 20 full lessons) would you be far better at golf and understand your own game and have the ability to fit yourself --saving thousands of dollars in the future?  Absolutely.  I was on vacation with my family and without my clubs.  There was a great course and my family was out for the day without me.  I went to see if I could rent clubs and play nine before they got back.  All they had were regular flex, standard length set. For reference, I play tour extra stiff shafts in most everything and 3/4" longer than standard.  I adapted within 20 shots on the range and went out and shot a pretty normal 2 over par for nine holes.  Would I have scored better with my own stuff?  Maybe.  Point is, I knew how to adapt.  I learned that from my pro.

 

Choose wisely.

[skraly]

Swing speed alone does not determine what flex shaft you should be using.  Swing speed, shaft loading, angle of attack, consistency of center strikes all play a part.  Before blindly assuming you need a certain shaft you should do a shaft fitting if at all possible.  Even if it turns out you would be better in a stiffer shaft, there are a ton of stiff flex shafts with different weights and flex points.  Just guessing which one might be right for you is a crap shoot.  As for game improvement irons vs. your current set, again it kind of depends on your predominant miss pattern.  Telling us you shoot around 90 most of the time is not much information to go on.  Unless you have money to burn on experimentation,  my advice would be to take a few lessons from a reputable instructor.  He/she would then be in a position to give you some recommendations on gear.  Then the shaft fitting if at all possible.  Unfortunately, despite what what a lot of us here on WRX would like to believe(guilty😇) you can’t buy a better game.

Edited March 26, 2023 by skraly

[SamboRoll]

3 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

I get what you are saying, but none of it really answered my main questions.  If someone with my swing speed goes from a regular shaft to a stiff shaft, will that help with consistency enough to lower my scores with that alone?  And for someone with an 18 handicap, will using actual game improvement irons built for higher handicaps, instead of "players irons" built for single digit handicaps, help lower the scores with that alone?  If the answer is yes to both/either, then club fittings make sense to lower your scores by getting clubs that fit better.  If the answer is no, then what's the point of club fittings if you can be as misfit as mine are but it won't make a noticeable difference?  I hope this isn't coming off as combative, I just haven't had anyone be able to answer my questions directly between this post and multiple reddit posts. 

 

Your point about "optimizing launch conditions and trajectory" is interesting as this is the first I'm hearing about that.  Which could be showing my ignorance on the subject given that I have only recently started digging into this stuff.

Short answers. Changing from regular to stiff with your swing speed should  decrease dispersion of your shots to a smaller range, which as a consequence increases chances to improve scoring. The same goes for changing from players club heads to game improvement club heads. Your misses are straighter and longer with the new ones. This will have an impact on your round, because on your level, to be honest, most of your shots are still misses. The changes you proposed will reduce inconsistency in your iron game in terms of outcome. You’ll find yourself in better spots on the course after a bad or mediocre shot. 
 

Then it is up to you to make these better scores with the new clubs in the bag. And please remember, there are other areas in golf, driving, wedge game and putting that are equally as important in improving scoring. But to summarize, if you want a quick fix instead of paying for lessons and putting time in practicing, shifting to stiffer shafts and more forgiving club heads is a good one. Changing the clubhead having bigger impact than changing the shaft, but optimally you’d find a best combo of them for you in fitting.

Edited March 26, 2023 by SamboRoll

[mc2]

Just being fit and knowing you're swinging clubs that are the best possible match for you, leads to much more confidence (and no second-guessing), and lower scores in the long run. 
 

Shaft fit is really important and you could be swinging something completely wrong for you.

 

Launch conditions are very important. I'm a low hitter and went into my iron fitting with irons at standard loft, and came out with them 3 degrees weak which has greatly helped me get more height and actually hold some greens (which I was struggling with before the fitting). 
 

Buying off the rack you'll be extremely lucky to buy clubs that fit you, and you'll  be throwing money away if you decided to sell them later. Getting a fitting is "buy once cry once". 

 

I used to buy and sell a lot of clubs and nothing ever felt quite right. I've gone through my bag and got fittings for every section of the bag (except putter, but that's next), and I can't tell you how nice it is to just have clubs that feel great and work great and I no longer have that question in my mind about whether they are the right clubs for me or not.

 

Getting a fitting for irons isn't going to magically and instantly half your handicap or anything, but it will give you the best possible chance to drop your scores over time (if that's what your aim truly is).

 

Just make sure you're going to a reputable fitter, and paying for their time. 

[ShortGolfer]

For me, it was like wearing clothes that fit properly.  I'm small, so it was easy to get used to ill fitting clothes.

The fitter saw that I needed clubs that were 2 inches short and 2 inches upright.  I cut my old clubs down and immediately shot better!

I had spent a lot of time experimenting with SW and club length, but needed someone to tell me what size I needed, as well of the experience of hitting clubs and talking about how they either fit or didn't fit.  Some folks fall into the trap of cutting the clubs down but letting the SW get too light.

Edited March 26, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[mc2]

3 hours ago, skraly said:

Swing speed alone does not determine what flex shaft you should be using.  Swing speed, shaft loading, angle of attack, consistency of center strikes all play a part.  Before blindly assuming you need a certain shaft you should do a shaft fitting if at all possible.  Even if it turns out you would be better in a stiffer shaft, there are a ton of stiff flex shafts with different weights and flex points.  Just guessing which one might be right for you is a crap shoot.  As for game improvement irons vs. your current set, again it kind of depends on your predominant miss pattern.  Telling us you shoot around 90 most of the time is not much information to go on.  Unless you have money to burn on experimentation,  my advice would be to take a few lessons from a reputable instructor.  He/she would then be in a position to give you some recommendations on gear.  Then the shaft fitting if at all possible.  Unfortunately, despite what what a lot of us here on WRX would like to believe(guilty😇) you can’t buy a better game.

This is the truth.

 

On paper if fit into a regular flex shaft but in my fittings I've ended up with stiff flex in my driver and x-stiff in fairways, while retaining reg flex in irons.

 

I swing those three categories of clubs very differently apparently, and also every shaft models flex is different.

 

I wasted a lot of time and money buying and selling clubs before I finally went and got fitted

[SamboRoll]

5 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

Couple of things maybe 🤔 

 

The primary goal of fitting is to optimize launch conditions and trajectory. It’s not going to make you a better golfer because you buy newer equipment. You can put a lousy swing on a perfectly fit and a perfectly mix-fit club and they’ll both suck.

 

RSI2’s were and still are excellent clubs for most players, you included. They are not blades, muscle back, low-capper clubs. The stock shaft is a KBS Tour 105. Again, this was and is a very good shaft.

 

If you were to buy an off the shelf set of P790’s with DG105 S shafts (an excellent club set and shaft combination IMO), the biggest difference you’re likely to see is distance. However, as a player with a significant amount of swing variation, the end result is likely going to be that the P790’s will go further in some direction, though not necessarily the intended one.

 

Your situation is common, that you don’t know how much change you need, and what the benefits of a fitting, which is in itself not entirely objective and concise, will be. Neither do I or anyone else on the internet, since we can’t even see you. There is an optimal solution path though, which is to find an instructor who also does club fitting. They can determine if and when you are in a condition that warrants/allows fitting, can make far more objective assessments of the effects of your current equipment as well as potential solutions.

I don’t want to go too deep into the rabbit hole of shaft specs, but with your swing speed probably a heavier shaft (120g), in addition to the stiff flex could bring more stability and consistency. Lighter shafts, such as the KBS 105g have been trending for the past 10 years, because using lighter shaft is one way of increasing the swing speed for the club golfer, in addition to introducing stronger lofts in new iron sets. Equipment manufacturers have used both tricks to sell a lot of clubs in recent years with the promise of distance increase. Personally, I would leave lighter shafts to seniors, female golfers and other player types who struggle in creating club head speed. After all, irons are precision weapons and minimizing their dispersion is what a player should be looking for.

Edited March 26, 2023 by SamboRoll

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

I have searched far and wide, and have not been able to find a similar question to my own situation, but I know it has to be a common issue.

 

That's because most of your questions can only be answered through trial and error testing.   There are no absolutes when it comes to the "what if's" of equipment fitting.   Everyone react differently to equipment changes.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

The first issue I am looking at is that I have a 105mph driver swing speed and 90mph 7i swing speed, so I should be using stiff flex shafts.

 

Sorry no.   "should" is definitely the wrong word.  In fact you should really try to get rid of all those misconceptions that characterize what type of equipment people "should" play  based on ability, club head speed, or anything else.  The only "should" that matters is that you should play what gives you the best results.

 

So it's more accurate to say that you are more likely to fit into stiffer shafts.  But there is no way to know how much (if any) improvement will be seen on course with a change in stiffness until you go out and hit the stiffer options side by side with the current shafts.

 

The other thing that's important to know about shaft selection is that shaft weight is usually more more important when it comes to how the results will be effected than the stiffness.

 

e.g  Furyk played an R flex shaft in his iron when he was playing the PGA Tour

 

 

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

 

  The second issue I am looking at is that these are "players irons" and are for lower handicap players according to all the reviews from 2015. 

...

, so have I been making my life much more difficult using these vs something much more forgiving?

 

Not at all.   Actually technically they are "players CB" - between "Players" and "GI"  - but that doesn't really mean anything with respect to whether you should be playing them or not.   Nor does it mean you will automatically get better performance or scores out of the RSi1's

 

 

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

 "If I upgrade to a set of game improvement irons like T300/Stealth/JPX923HM/G430 with stiff shafts, will my scores noticeably drop due to the added distance, forgiveness, and the fact that they are actually fit for my swing speed/skill level? Or will it only save me a couple strokes and obviously wouldn't be worth the money?"  

 

Very unlikely you'd see much of a difference but there is really no way for anyone here to know the answer to that.   That's something only you can figure out through some trial and error testing.

 

I wouldn't worry about the head selection but what you might want to do is go out and demo some stiffer (and likely heavier) shafts side-by-side with your current set and see what that might do to your swing.    You should be looking predominantly at things like consistency - particularly with the face impact location and shot shape control, dispersion but take a peak at the club head speed and dynamic loft while you're at it.    Shaft selection should be all about consistency of the swing and results - not launch and spin or distance.

 

 

5 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

Side note: If it shouldn't save me many strokes, then I honestly don't understand the point of a fitting.

 

Some people are better than others at adjusting their swing to different equipment specs.  Some can do it, some can't and it can be different for different specs.   e.g.  one person might be able to swing a wide range of shaft stiffness's with no ill effect but might also need the weight to be within a very small  range to get the best result.   While a different person might be the complete opposite.   Fitting helps an individual find out which specs are important to them and how important are they.    So it's entirely possible that a fitting might not do anything more then let a player know that he's good with what he already has.  But it's also possible that it might make a noticeable difference in the results.   You just  never know until after the fitting.

 

 

 

 

[jomatty]

6 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

This is exactly why I put the "maybe I'm just being stubborn" part.  My confusion stems from the fact that I see everyone on the internet say new clubs are not going to help you lower your score, only lessons/getting better will.  But then they will also say to go get fitted for clubs instead of just buying random ones off the rack.  So which is it?  Clubs matching your skill set and swing characteristics can help you score lower, or not?  If the answer is "yes, but only maybe 1-2 shots" then who would deem that worthy of $1000?

TLDR:

Just listen to Stuart, his advice is always top notch.

 

Like others have said, there are no easy answers and everyone is so different that it is very hard to generalize.  But that won’t stop me!

If it turns out your club/shaft combination  are a reasonably good fit for you then you are likely to not see much difference in scores.  You have good clubs that are not overly demanding, so it’s hard to say.  If you had a set of blades or something it would be different.  
IMHO for you to see major gains in scoring you are going to need to have a really bad shaft for your swing/tempo/feel etc.  If that is the case then you could see a fairly big improvement from being fit.  The fact that they are an R would not in and of itself concern me too much without knowing a lot more.
If you are going to get new clubs I would at least try to demo the clubs somewhere.  Places like Dicks and Golf Galaxy will usually let you demo clubs for free and you could at least try a few different heads with a few different shafts and figure out what weight and profile you like best.  Figure out what weight class and profile/type shaft feels the best and gives you consistent numbers.  At least then you are not just completely guessing and leaving yourself open to getting something that could potentially be worse than what you have.

Of course the best option is to get fit.  My suggestion would be to get fit, but don’t buy the clubs from the fitter unless their pricing is in line with other retailers.  Places like discount dans can likely save you a lot of money.  Or you can get your specs and figure out what you are looking for and find a used set in the BST or elsewhere.  If your fitting shows two or three shaft options that are very close and offered stock on your top 2 iron head choices you can likely find a new set very easily that has almost no use and save at least as much as the fitting.  Even if you need to get the lie angle tweaked or something similar you are still likely to save money.  Same option could be used after demoing clubs and figuring out what you like.  Us sickos buy and sell a lot of clubs in great condition, so if you know what shaft and head type you are looking for it is very easy to find something that will work well on BST.

Edited March 26, 2023 by jomatty

[Itsjustagame]

Often you can improve your scores more with a new driver or putter rather than irons.

[bluedot]

You’re looking for universal answers to VERY individualized questions.  How much I can be helped by properly fitted clubs and how much YOU can be helped by properly fitted clubs are two different questions, if only because we don’t know the extent to what you currently have suits you. Or doesn’t…

 

Setting  aside for a moment a bunch of stuff very specific to you, such as cost and how much you are willing/able to practice, I always ask skeptics about fitting this question:

 

Given that every Tour pro you watch on TV is using carefully fitted equipment, do you need more help from equipment than they do, or less?

[Nessism]

I seriously doubt that changing to a more GI iron, with a stiff shaft, would improve your scoring more than 1-2 shots.  And it may not even do that, unless your current irons are badly misfit to your body in some way (too short/long, or the lie angle is way off from what you need.)  

 

Regarding the head size, if you hit tons of shots off the toe, or away from the center of the face laterally, then a larger head will help.  It won't help if you hit the ball thin/fat, though.  

 

You might want to go through Ping's online fitting program to see what length and lie angle they recommend.  Measure your wrist height carefully while wearing your golf shoes, otherwise the measurement will be off.  This will answer the main question about club fitting you physically.

 

And realize that you can always buy a set of older, and cheaper, irons to see how they work.  Sell if you don't think they make you better.  As long as you buy carefully, you won't be out much money if the experiment fails.  

[5 O'Clock Charlie]

If you are shooting 87-93 on average, then you are probably hitting maybe 2-5 greens in regulation per round. If you are hitting more than that, then your putting needs some work.

 

Changing flex in shafts most likely will not lower your score. Working on a consistent path and face angle at impact will. Does that mean the shafts and heads you have now are “wrong” for you?  Maybe, maybe not.  Go get some advice on it with a fitter or instructor.

 

If you want to get closer to 80 than 90, then you will want to average around 8 or 9 greens in reg, limit the 3 putts, and improve the short game.

Edited March 26, 2023 by 5 O'Clock Charlie

[RSLP]

Lots of good advice on the string, and frank observations about what is a “fitting”
 

One observation I have for the OP is that a 90MPH 7iron should be generating about a 110-112MPH driver speed.  We would like to see 2MPH between irons, and 4MPH between woods.  Like everything in golf, we are balancing give and takes.  

Your closing remarks said  “look good”.  For many, this is very important and the solution is a bag of whatever you think achieves that goal.

[Jeff58]

12 hours ago, Jbosillo said:

If the answer is yes to both/either, then club fittings make sense to lower your scores by getting clubs that fit better.  If the answer is no, then what's the point of club fittings if you can be as misfit as mine are but it won't make a noticeable difference?

Hope this is somewhat helpful. I think others here are pointing in a similar direction.

 

If you were to buy two shares of stock at the same price and one increased by ten percent and the other by twenty, it would be safe to say that the return on the second stock was “better”. For golf equipment, there is little to no “better”. What there is is “different”. Manufacturers create different configurations to hopefully match a diverse clientele, but their interactions with a specific player are only loosely correlated. There is no way that anyone at any level of skill, much less your own, can predict that their score will decrease by X strokes by changing equipment.

 

What is somewhat predictable is potential. In your case, your irons are at least somewhat different from what is potentially optimal. That makes seeking out change potentially useful. The key here is to approach the alternatives in a manner that maximizes the potential for success. Guessing, and picking blindly is a lot like going to Vegas. While it may be initially exciting, the odds are not with you, and the economic loss eventually frustrating.

[Jbosillo]

All, I really appreciate the answers I have seen here as it is the first time people have actually tried to help me see how convoluted the subject actually is.  A couple of notes and a couple of updates on my thoughts based on your comments:

 

Notes: Some have mentioned putting and driving.  Putting has always been the strongest part of my game.  My rounds last year ranged from 1.8pph to 2.3pph (the greens were being aerated a few times!) and my season avg was exactly 2.0, and would be even lower if it weren't for the aerated greens, so I am pretty happy with that considering I very rarely practice.  Driving I've always had a slice until late last year when I cured it.  Went and bought a shiny new TSR2 as a reward and am happy for now with the performance off the tee.

 

Summary of input:  It sounds like most people are saying "it may help to get fitted with stiff shafts and GI irons, or it may not, it really just depends on how poorly the current irons are fit for your swing" and "90mph swing speed with 7 iron sounds like a stiff shaft is needed, and could help with dispersion, but there is no guarantee" and lastly "there is no way to know or even guess what the outcome of new GI irons will do for your game, only fitting can answer that" which makes sense, I just thought there was a rule of thumb that could be applied to a situation like mine.

 

Last comments:

-I guess in my mind I figured people would have plenty of examples of "When I got into golf, I just bought a set of quality clubs I thought looked cool. I found out later I was hitting clubs/shafts completely misfit for me. Got fitted, and immediately noticed a dramatic change in distance and dispersion where I saved ~5 shots per round just by avoiding water and other hazards because my mishits were much better" or "I was a bogey golfer and switched to GI irons recently and I should have done it years ago" type of things.

-After going to the range this weekend I realized that honestly my biggest flaw in my game is hitting anything over a 7iron.  Anything from 100-170yds is consistent enough for someone who rarely practices, so maybe I should just work on a solution to those 180-230yards I'm missing from my game, instead of dropping $1k-$1.2k on a full new iron set.  Can't say I've every seen someone with a mixed iron set, but if it works, I might have to do it.  3 clubs has got to be cheaper than 8...

[RSLP]

the golf stat man Lou Stagner would agree with your 180+ assessment. 

[Howard_Jones]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:38 AM, Jbosillo said:

I have searched far and wide, and have not been able to find a similar question to my own situation, but I know it has to be a common issue.

 

That being said, I am currently gaming a set of Taylormade RSi2's (2015) with R-flex shafts.  I bought these offline because they looked like a good deal, but had zero idea about shaft flex, or game improvement vs players irons, etc.  The first issue I am looking at is that I have a 105mph driver swing speed and 90mph 7i swing speed, so I should be using stiff flex shafts.  The second issue I am looking at is that these are "players irons" and are for lower handicap players according to all the reviews from 2015.  I am a VERY consistent bogey golfer.  I'm pretty sure my handicap is right at 18 as I shot all 14 rounds last year between 87-93.  So these are not the game improvement irons I should be using.  With a kid I don't have time to put in much practice, I just want to live in the 80's and have no plans on putting in the practice to drop down to a single digit handicap.  Looking back, the RSi1's were the game improvement irons I should have gotten, so have I been making my life much more difficult using these vs something much more forgiving?  All of this leads to the obvious question of "If I upgrade to a set of game improvement irons like T300/Stealth/JPX923HM/G430 with stiff shafts, will my scores noticeably drop due to the added distance, forgiveness, and the fact that they are actually fit for my swing speed/skill level? Or will it only save me a couple strokes and obviously wouldn't be worth the money?"  

 

Sorry for the long post, but I figured getting all the thoughts and information out there can only help getting a more accurate answer.  I know a lot of people will just say "go get a fitting" but I'm not sure how going from something I've used for 7 years (aka comfortable and used to the dynamics) vs 3-4 new designs for half an hour will really give me clarity, given my swing isn't incredibly consistent or technically all that great.  If that is literally the only answer, and I'm just being stubborn, so be it.  But I figured you all might have some helpful information ahead of time.  

 

Side note: If it shouldn't save me many strokes, then I honestly don't understand the point of a fitting.  If I am using clubs not meant for me on two fronts, and getting fit for clubs that "work best for me" won't make much difference, then everyone saying "go get fit" makes zero sense.  Might as well just get a set of T200's or P790's and look good while shooting the same scores. (Trust me, I'm tempted)

You will have to start with a analyze of your score card
If putting and wedges is the reason for why you are a bogey player, new irons will not improve it, unless its on par 3, and longer approach you mess up using irons...

Forget shaft flex and club speed, its NO NEEDs here, flex is simply a trigger for how you swing the club, and to the softer side of the norm is often beneficial, so if they feel ok, no worries.

Start with the score card, where are you loosing strokes and why?
We can often improve our average score, simply by removing clubs from the bag we are not happy with, WITHOUT replacing them with new ones.

So ask your self, what clubs in the bag is "safe" and have the lowest numbers of mishits?
Whats the worse clubs?
 

Combined with the score card analyze, you will know if new irons is a way to improvement or not.

[Ger21]

On 3/27/2023 at 11:14 AM, Jbosillo said:

Got fitted, and immediately noticed a dramatic change in distance and dispersion where I saved ~5 shots per round just by avoiding water and other hazards because my mishits were much better"

When you hit a ball with an iron, the ball goes where the face is pointing. No amount of forgiveness will make you sqaure the face to the target.
Where forgiveness helps, is with distance loss on minor mishits. It can also help a little on worse mishits that would twist the face open or closed at impact. The extra forgivenes can help keep the face more stable through impact, making a shot that's a few yards offline a little straighter.
But it's not going to turn a 20 yard miss into a GIR.
Bad shots will still be bad shots. But a shot that comes up short in a bunker might carry the bunker with a little more forgiveness.

[Jbosillo]

29 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

You will have to start with a analyze of your score card
If putting and wedges is the reason for why you are a bogey player, new irons will not improve it, unless its on par 3, and longer approach you mess up using irons...

Forget shaft flex and club speed, its NO NEEDs here, flex is simply a trigger for how you swing the club, and to the softer side of the norm is often beneficial, so if they feel ok, no worries.

Start with the score card, where are you loosing strokes and why?
We can often improve our average score, simply by removing clubs from the bag we are not happy with, WITHOUT replacing them with new ones.

So ask your self, what clubs in the bag is "safe" and have the lowest numbers of mishits?
Whats the worse clubs?
 

Combined with the score card analyze, you will know if new irons is a way to improvement or not.

 

I actually commented about a few of these things a couple comments before yours.  I consider myself to be a fine putter 2.0 avg exactly last year and that is with a few bad rounds with aerated greens.  I am usually happy with my chipping and short game, but obviously there is always room for improvement.  I also mentioned about how I'm by far the least confident with anything over a 7iron, so I don't really hit anything in the 180-220yd range very consistently, which causes me to struggle on par 5's and long par 4's.  I only use my 4 iron for punching out.  I try my 5 iron when I just need to advance it a long distance, and I'll use my 6 iron occasionally for those 180-190yd shots hoping it goes well.  Now I might remove those three clubs, and go hit a couple Stealth/T300 long irons and add them to the bag instead of getting all new clubs.  So pretty much your entire post was right on track with where I was heading. 

 

Two things that I did not post previously is that last year I had a 56% fairway hit rate, 28% miss right (a lot of slices early in the year), and 16% miss left (got rid of my slice but had a lot of pulls later in the year), as well as a 28% GIR (about 5 per round).

[Jbosillo]

11 minutes ago, Ger21 said:

When you hit a ball with an iron, the ball goes where the face is pointing. No amount of forgiveness will make you sqaure the face to the target.
Where forgiveness helps, is with distance loss on minor mishits. It can also help a little on worse mishits that would twist the face open or closed at impact. The extra forgivenes can help keep the face more stable through impact, making a shot that's a few yards offline a little straighter.
But it's not going to turn a 20 yard miss into a GIR.
Bad shots will still be bad shots. But a shot that comes up short in a bunker might carry the bunker with a little more forgiveness.

 

I tell people all the time that what causes me to be a very solid bogey golfer is that 50% of the holes it takes me one more shot than it should to get on the green, then almost an automatic 2 putt after I'm finally on.  Well, it usually takes me one more shot to get on than it should because I am just short/left/right of the green within 0-10 yards.  It seems like I almost always am taking my chipping wedge and putter when walking up to the green.  This alone is why I think that getting something more forgiving could easily save me 3-5 strokes per round, because as long as I'm on the green (even the edge of it) easily saves me from a lot of tricky chips around/over/from bunkers, or chips from thick rough, etc.  Could also point towards "if I got better at chipping, I could get more 1 putts" and there is no denying that is also true.

[Ger21]

Yes, if you miss a lot of greens by a small amount, then more forgiving clubs might save you a stroke or two per round. Expecting 5 strokes is asking a lot.

[ChipNRun]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:38 PM, Jbosillo said:

That being said, I am currently gaming a set of Taylormade RSi2's (2015) with R-flex shafts.  I bought these offline because they looked like a good deal, but had zero idea about shaft flex, or game improvement vs players irons, etc.  The first issue I am looking at is that I have a 105mph driver swing speed and 90mph 7i swing speed, so I should be using stiff flex shafts.  The second issue I am looking at is that these are "players irons" and are for lower handicap players according to all the reviews from 2015.

 

First of all, your irons are part of TM's RSi family that came out in fall 2015. The RSiTP was a players cavity iron, the RSi2 a Game Improvement, and RSi1 a GI/SGI offering. RSi2 are not Players irons, according to an independent reviewer of the three models. With your clubhead speed, the only point would be you might do better with stiff shafts; a fitting could give you a better idea. 

 

The GD Hot List, however, rated RSi1 as GI, and both RSi2 and RSiTP as Players irons. A difference of opinion between raters!

 

If you are inconsistent, take a tune-up lesson to stabilize your swing.  Next, a fitting can help you tease out equipment that doesn't fit your swing. If your iron shafts are too short for you, or the lie angle wrong, this would contribute to your inconsistency.

 

A good fitter will have you hit your current clubs to establish a swing baseline. Then, the fitter will look for equipment adjustments to help you out. After that, it's up to  you to learn, practice and improve.

 

Remember, golf is a cyborg activity. Golfer swing + golf club merge efforts to move the ball efficiently.

[Frank Newport]

Question: "How much will an iron fitting help if I'm currently using clubs not meant for my skill level or swing speed?"

 

Answer: A lot

 

How much is a lot? That depends on many factors.

1. How poorly do your current clubs fit?

2. How insecure are you standing over the ball thinking/knowing the club you're holding doesn't fit you?

3. Will you trust the fitter and what ever clubs they eventually pick for you? (Based on your attitude, I don't believe you will) 

 

Most, if not all, of the repliers to this thread know more about equipment and fitting than me, but I have first hand experience in exactly what you're going through and I'm going through it at this very moment. All the replies are getting way too deep into the weeds. The simple answer is: clubs properly fitted to your swing maximize your potential to shoot lower scores on a more consistent basis. Michael Jordan wasn't a better basketball player because he wore Nikes, but wearing a well-fitting pair of basketball shoes as opposed to a pair wingtips probably helped him get the most out of his abilities.  

 

I'm a bogey golfer who just got back into golf after a long layoff and I'm quickly realizing the benefits of a fitting. I demoed clubs for the past six months while working on my game. I quickly realized equipment has changed a bit since the last time I played 15 years ago and that a fitting was necessary. I've now gone for 3 fittings at my local Roger Dunn and all 3 experiences have been excellent. My first fitting was for a new set of irons where the fitter actually recommended that I don't buy a set and take lessons with my current irons. My second fitting was a putter fitting where the fitter recommended to just lengthen my current putter. Neither fitter charged me the usual fee for the service. Their honesty is why I eventually went back for a driver fitting recently where I swung like absolute trash.  Everything I hit went 225-240 with a 30 yard slice except for the standard Stealth 2 set to UPRT with a Hzrdus Red RDX 60 shaft which went about 265 with a 15 yard fade/slice. The fitter (same guy who did the putter fitting) recommended I get lessons instead of buying a driver, but said that the Stealth will not only work just fine now but would likely to be a good, if not better fit, after taking lessons. He also reminded me that I had 90 days to return it if it didn't work out. I bought the driver and started taking lessons. Along with my putter, it's the only club in my bag that I got fitted for and they're now easily my most consistent and the ones I'm most confident with.  I didn't need wholesale changes to my swing and the fitter recognized that and put me with a club that fit me well both now and in the future as my swing progressed. That one fitting was also enough for me to understand what to look for when buying/demoing fairway woods. Roger Dunn does basic fittings for a nominal fee ($75 driver fitting), but it was more than enough to match me with the right club and build a relationship with a fitter who has a good understanding of my swing and what I need.  

 

I'll be going back to him for an iron fitting after a few more lessons because I too believe my current irons aren't meant for my skill level or swing speed. The reason I believe this is because my best rounds have been with demos and rentals. I trust the fitter will put me with the best irons for my game and I know I'll have more confidence standing over the ball. That alone is worth much more than the nominal fee he'll charge me for his time.

 

I don't have any experience with the intense fitting and building processes of the Club Champion types of fitters so I won't opine on their value, but the basic fittings that my friends and I have gotten from retailers such as Roger Dunn and PGASS have had a significant effect on our scores.