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Let’s play a game of “was the simulator juiced”


Chilidog

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Hey guys, I want to get some opinions on something. Went for a driver fitting at my local Tour Truck franchise. I know the owner. Not the most trustworthy guy but it is what I have locally. Here is how it went:

 

After warming up with some irons, he came over and inputted into the computer for the GCQuad the word “SIM” which is my current driver. I use a 9* with GD AD-MT S shaft. I hit 10 drives with the following averages:

 

106 clubhead speed. 156 ball speed. 2000 rpms backspin. +8* angle of attack. 287 carry. 296 overall. 
 

With each new club I tried, the fitter would go find it in the computer, click it and click through quickly on color of the results and something else that was quick. He’s obviously done this a million times so he can do it quickly. I changed to a Paradym TD with Ventus blue 6s. 
 

107 clubhead speed. 158 ball speed. 1300 rpms. +8* angle of attack. 312 carry. 321 overall. 
 

Switches me to the Ventus black 7x because my transition from the backswing to the downswing is too fast for the S and 60 gram weight he felt. We also moved to the standard Paradym head as he wanted to get my spin numbers up a little bit as I was hitting the TD all over the map. 
 

108 clubhead. 159 ball speed. 1600 rpms. Same angle of attack. 309 carry. 317 overall. 
 

I won’t bore you with the other clubs but the G430 was just slightly behind this in distance. 
 

That is obviously a huge jump in distance to me for not a lot of gain in clubhead or ball speed. So the question becomes: do you think they juiced the GC Quad with wind or elevation changes already preset for those clubs in their sim?

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The fitter said I need less RPMs with my angle of attack because it launching so high. I will say that in real world conditions, my driver at 2000 rpms often hits and backs up in the fairway. I never get the tumble forward. I play a lot of wet fairways and dog legs which if you hit it high enough, you can go over and leave yourself with considerably less into the hole which has raised my angle of attack over the years. I also find that I carry it about what the sim said for my driver at 2000 rpms. So, at least that seemed accurate. 
 

I did order the Paradym with 7x,  so we are going to find out how good it is. I’m hoping that I do get a jump in distance but 20-25 yards seemed crazy. Thanks for clarifying. 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

All of those spins are too low for your speed. Foresight algorithm is juiced for low spin shots. You can’t carry the ball 287 let alone 300 with 150s ball speed. 
 

2k would be low end of playable spin for your speed. 1300 would be a disaster. Don’t love the +8 AoA either but if it works for you 

I carry my driver 285 today at 2000 rpms. I know that for sure because we have a pond that a lot of us try to cover on a par 5 that lasers 275 to the end and I usually cover it by 5-10 yards on the fly. My problem is that there is no roll out afterwards. 

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Plugging your initial stats into flight scope trajectory optimizer , 15 launch( assumption here) , 2000 spin , 156 speed yields 259 carry. 
 

Your final numbers 159 ball speed, again 15 launch assumption and 1600 spin yields 266 carry. 
 

so maybe you play at a very high altitude ? If not then it’s not happening 

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This is biggest problem with foresight imo. The machines are great and extremely accurate but their algorithm is plain wrong for shots on low end of spin spectrum and massively skews people’s expectations yardage wise. 
 

Unless you’re getting 170 ball speed plus you’re not getting near 300 carry on a flat shot near sea level with no wind 

 

170 ball speed 15 launch 2000 spin is 287 carry. Need 180 speed at those parameters to fly it 305 

 

https://trajectory.flightscope.com

 

nice tool to play around with to see reasonable yardage expectations 

Edited by doctor220
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I live at the foothills of the mountains. Maybe 1000 ft above sea level. I have no idea other than maybe it was picking up something wrong. I did a Ping Demo Day at our club back last fall and they were getting similar carry distances with a Trackman. Not sure what’s off but definitely carrying more than 266. 

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Just now, Chilidog said:

I carry my driver 285 today at 2000 rpms. I know that for sure because we have a pond that a lot of us try to cover on a par 5 that lasers 275 to the end and I usually cover it by 5-10 yards on the fly. My problem is that there is no roll out afterwards. 

High 150's ball speed physically cannot carry over 270 unless it's really hot, the air is thin or you're playing in very high elevation.  Something is not adding up here.  You'd have to be closer to 170 ball speed. 

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10 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

High 150's ball speed physically cannot carry over 270 unless it's really hot, the air is thin or you're playing in very high elevation.  Something is not adding up here.  You'd have to be closer to 170 ball speed. 

I wonder if it wasn’t calculating the right ball speeds?

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11 minutes ago, chollier986 said:

Your gamer gave you the best numbers. Stick with that.  Difficult to manage face to path with that attack angle.  Speaking from experience.  

My only thought as to why I don’t think this is that ball hits and is behind its pitch mark in the fairways. Optimization should have the ball bouncing forward. 

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3 minutes ago, Chilidog said:

My only thought as to why I don’t think this is that ball hits and is behind its pitch mark in the fairways. Optimization should have the ball bouncing forward. 

Sounds like fairways are just soft or wet. You are quite far towards the low end of the spin spectrum and your stats indicate your carry distance is near maxed for speed. Less spin would hurt you, not help you. I’m sure you launch it pretty high given that AoA and spin. 
 

if the fairways are not firm then no amount of launch changes will cause roll. Would rather maximize carry for most part or at least trend towards carry being more important. 

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6 minutes ago, Chilidog said:

I wonder if it wasn’t calculating the right ball speeds?

Ball speed is pretty much always right. I never swing full tilt inside for whatever reason. I can get up near 180 BS outdoors in summer but when I’m slow, it’s winter, and I’m indoors I cruise closer to high 160s/low 70s. I hit it further outside and you may as well. As others have said the spin you were getting with the other drivers is flat out unplayable outdoors. 2200-2400 is the sweet spot for those speed IMO. 

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I have a home SIM GC3 while my local PGASS still uses GC2s mostly. 
 

I hit the ball about 10 to 20 yards further at the PGASS than I do at my home SIM.

 

I was carrying the G430 270 yards at the PGASS consistently while at home, I’ve only carried 260 a handful of times.

Edited by SollyinGA
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12 minutes ago, Chilidog said:

My only thought as to why I don’t think this is that ball hits and is behind its pitch mark in the fairways. Optimization should have the ball bouncing forward. 

 

What is your angle of decent? With a +8 AOA I would bet it is coming down closer to 50 degrees. When I swing up on it I carry it much longer but get little roll due to the ball coming down to steep. 

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I don't know enough about this specific monitor....But those carry numbers for 106/107 SS seem pretty high. You'd probably have to be absolutely perfect launch to sniff those.

 

What i have seen some places do rather than "juice" is set the driving range at a custom altitude. (higher naturally) so the ball goes further. 

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16 minutes ago, Tree Levino said:

Ball speed is pretty much always right. I never swing full tilt inside for whatever reason. I can get up near 180 BS outdoors in summer but when I’m slow, it’s winter, and I’m indoors I cruise closer to high 160s/low 70s. I hit it further outside and you may as well. As others have said the spin you were getting with the other drivers is flat out unplayable outdoors. 2200-2400 is the sweet spot for those speed IMO. 

I did actually back up some at Bandon a couple of weeks ago as well. I don’t hit it balloon height but I hit it high on average.  

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15 minutes ago, Chilidog said:

My only thought as to why I don’t think this is that ball hits and is behind its pitch mark in the fairways. Optimization should have the ball bouncing forward. 

I live in part of the country where it's wet the early part of season and the ball regularly ends up behind the mark regardless unless I hit an ultra low bullet. Don't think going lower spin is going to make the ball roll forward. Heck, even if it had forward spin it'd maybe still bounce backwards due to impact dynamics. Even if you were getting 2-3 yards forward roll it's probably not worth the trade off of the ultra low spin others have mentioned.

 

Case in point: your roll out was the same or lower with the Paradym then the sim

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I plan to take the Paradym out for a head to head competition when it arrives. I’ll laser the two and see what it comes out to be. I definitely know it’s carrying more than 275 based off of our one hole that I can get a definitive mark on. But it was landing 5-10. I will try to use that hole for the Paradym as well late one evening once everyone has left the course as it’s only one hole away from my house. That way we will know for certain some carry numbers as well as whether it rolled out afterwards. 
 

Thanks for all the help guys. I knew something didn’t seem right. 

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can you get on another launch monitor and post the results here? 

 

something is way off.  

 

like other people have said, ball speed in the 150s will get you a carry somewhere in the 260s, and that's if you nut it.  

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3 minutes ago, Chilidog said:

Let me ask this, does 109 swing speed with 150s ball speed sound right? That’s what seems off to me. 

Yes that is reasonable, though with that swing speed you could theoretically get up to 163.5 ball speed or higher on certain toe hits. 
 

the machine is measuring the stuff fine , the launch and speed numbers were likely accurate. It’s the algorithm that it is using to convert that into a distance that is the issue/ 

Edited by doctor220
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