DMDs in use at PGA Championship

[Mr. Bean]

DId not watch the competition in question but heard that some players/caddies were using DMDs and that they were allowed. Does anybody have any information why this quite remarkable change took place and will this predict a new era when tours will allow use of digital measuring devises?

[DaveLeeNC]

I watched a good bit of the competition and they were definitely in use. The nature of US TV coverage does not show very much of the shot preparation stuff so you did not often see then out and in use. But I certainly saw them in use at least a half dozen times. I only saw laser types but GPS types in use could well have been in play also. At one point the commentators were discussing this and, in general, seemed to be opposed to their general use in PGA Tour play. No discussion of LIV play 🙂🙂

 

dave

 

ps. FWIW, there was no one-ball rule either. 

Edited May 24 by DaveLeeNC

[SNIPERBBB]

Apparently this was a change a few years ago just for the PGA Championship

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/why-are-players-and-caddies-using-rangefinders-at-the-pga-championship

[Schulzmc]

Rule change was in 2021. The more interesting one for me is they also did NOT have the one ball rule in place for this year’s tournament. Phil was one player that clearly was switching ball types on certain holes.

 

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/phil-mickelson-pga-championship-golf-ball-rule/

[SNIPERBBB]

If the tours are serious about speeding up play, they'll have to legalize DMDs.  Traditionalists won't like it but it can be easily countered with course setup and pin placement. 

[dfeldss]

24 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

If the tours are serious about speeding up play, they'll have to legalize DMDs.  Traditionalists won't like it but it can be easily countered with course setup and pin placement. 

 

I really don't think they'll speed up play that much. These players and caddies know their spots already. The few times i saw them used were when someone was way out of position. 

 

I don't think it'd be a shoot the pin get your distance type of thing if they were allowed either. They'd likely talk through their shot like they do now, then confirm with the laser.

[Stuart_G]

21 minutes ago, dfeldss said:

 

I really don't think they'll speed up play that much.

 

There are a few uncommon situations where it might make a difference but overall I probably agree.  It's not the time to get the distances that is the bottle-neck - it's the decision making process in what to do that takes the vast majority of the time and slows down the game (at the professional level at least).

 

But then, I personally don't see any valid reason why they should not allow their use.   The important skill in golf is the decision making and execution, not the gathering of information that's relatively easy to get - and for which the caddies end up doing the leg work anyways.     Before sprinkler heads and yardage books and pin sheets - there certainly may have been a time in the game when it was an important skill - but that's just not the case any more.

 

Edited May 24 by Stuart_G

[bnperrone]

58 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Rule change was in 2021. The more interesting one for me is they also did NOT have the one ball rule in place for this year’s tournament. Phil was one player that clearly was switching ball types on certain holes.

 

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/phil-mickelson-pga-championship-golf-ball-rule/

I have a feeling they'll put the one ball rule in effect moving forward. Not that it helped Phil, but...

[DaveLeeNC]

38 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There are a few uncommon situations where it might make a difference but overall I probably agree.  It's not the time to get the distances that is the bottle-neck - it's the decision making process in what to do that takes the vast majority of the time and slows down the game (at the professional level at least).

 

But then, I personally don't see any valid reason why they should not allow their use.   The important skill in golf is the decision making and execution, not the gathering of information that's relatively easy to get - and for which the caddies end up doing the leg work anyways.     Before sprinkler heads and yardage books and pin sheets - there certainly may have been a time in the game when it was an important skill - but that's just not the case any more.

 

 

I agree with what you stated above. But from my 'reading of the conversation' between Dottie Pepper and whoever she was discussing this with, they seemed to feel that determining a yardage from a yardage book was a key skill at the PGA Tour level. That is not my view, but what I heard when 'listening between the lines'. 

 

dave

[bnperrone]

4 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I agree with what you stated above. But from my 'reading of the conversation' between Dottie Pepper and whoever she was discussing this with, they seemed to feel that determining a yardage from a yardage book was a key skill at the PGA Tour level. That is not my view, but what I heard when 'listening between the lines'. 

 

dave

That's how I took that conversation as well, but I just don't get it. A laser gives you so little data compared to everything they're calculating on every shot. They have tee sheets. The books have tons of info. The laser is just speeding up a small component of the process.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

If the tours are serious about speeding up play, they'll have to legalize DMDs.  Traditionalists won't like it but it can be easily countered with course setup and pin placement. 

 

 

[nsxguy]

To the original question, per GOLF.COM, both the one ball rule and using DMDs are addressed by Local Rules (G4 & G5 respectively).

 

While the PGA TOUR routinely uses both Local Rules, the PGA of America, for their championship, did not.

[SNIPERBBB]

52 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I agree with what you stated above. But from my 'reading of the conversation' between Dottie Pepper and whoever she was discussing this with, they seemed to feel that determining a yardage from a yardage book was a key skill at the PGA Tour level. That is not my view, but what I heard when 'listening between the lines'. 

 

dave

 

1 hour ago, dfeldss said:

 

I really don't think they'll speed up play that much. These players and caddies know their spots already. The few times i saw them used were when someone was way out of position. 

 

I don't think it'd be a shoot the pin get your distance type of thing if they were allowed either. They'd likely talk through their shot like they do now, then confirm with the laser.

They're going to be using the books to determine distance to landing targets. Rarely are greens set to where they're throwing darts and all they need is the pin distance. Rangefinder will just eliminate the pacing off of distances which will save a lot of time over a round. 

[rogolf]

For those that are saying that use of rangefinders "will save time", could you provide your opinion on how much the rounds will be shortened?  how many minutes shorter?

[dfeldss]

9 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

 

They're going to be using the books to determine distance to landing targets. Rarely are greens set to where they're throwing darts and all they need is the pin distance. Rangefinder will just eliminate the pacing off of distances which will save a lot of time over a round. 

 

I would argue that the caddies will pace off distance with our without the rangefinders. And like @Stuart_G said, that's not even the part that takes the longest in the pro game. it's the decision making.

 

All that being said, i still don't see a reason why they're not allowed at this point.  

[WisconsinGolfer12]

I think that current tour pros and caddies that are used to pacing things off might continue to do so. Players coming up from college and other places and are used to using rangefinders in tournaments might be able to quickly use a rangefinder without pacing things off. I don't think there would be a massive pace of play change immediately, but overall I think allowing DMDs would be a good change

[NJBigFish22]

I'm indifferent on the subject.  I don't think it will speed up the pace of play.  At a tour event the caddies are out there for 3 days before the tournament start confirming yardages, so could using just to confirm something they didn't confirm earlier in the week, maybe it saves 30 seconds. I think there are other things that would speed up play more, like enforcing the rules in place regarding slow play.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

For those that are saying that use of rangefinders "will save time", could you provide your opinion on how much the rounds will be shortened?  how many minutes shorter?

 

Zero minutes.

 

Those who know how to use stroke savers do not delay game. Those who do not they will always delay the game, no matter what type of apparatus they use...

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

At a tour event the caddies are out there for 3 days before the tournament start confirming yardages, 

 

Are they no longer providing the players with a stroke saver created by professionals weeks before the competition?? Why would a caddie need anything more??

[NJBigFish22]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Are they no longer providing the players with a stroke saver created by professionals weeks before the competition?? Why would a caddie need anything more??

That's my point most of the work is done, which is why I'm indifferent on the topic.  Obviously there player may not hook 1 into a different fairway during a practice round so they may not have the information on hand.  So if they wanted to use math, walk it off, use a rangefinder or flip a coin it doesn't matter to me, as long as you do it quickly.

[Schulzmc]

IIRC, in 2021 when they made the change a spokesman said they believed it would save time. Specifically he mentioned those one or two times a round that a player found himself in a place they had not anticipated and it was going to take some time to pace off yardage with no planned landmark nearby. If that happened to 20 or 30 players over a round it might collectively make a difference. 

[R_Swanson]

4 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I agree with what you stated above. But from my 'reading of the conversation' between Dottie Pepper and whoever she was discussing this with, they seemed to feel that determining a yardage from a yardage book was a key skill at the PGA Tour level. That is not my view, but what I heard when 'listening between the lines'. 

 

dave

I think you are recalling incorrectly.  Dottie Pepper was very much against them.  Ian Baker Finch disagreed with her, and thought they should be allowed.  His argument was similar to the ones here - it will speed up the game a little on shots where they are way out of position, and it doesn't matter much anyway, as these guys know their yardages, so there's no good reason to outlaw them.

Dottie's argument was basically that figuring out the yardage by walking it off was integral to the game.  Just one person's opinion, but its a luddite-argument to me.

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

IIRC, in 2021 when they made the change a spokesman said they believed it would save time. Specifically he mentioned those one or two times a round that a player found himself in a place they had not anticipated and it was going to take some time to pace off yardage with no planned landmark nearby. If that happened to 20 or 30 players over a round it might collectively make a difference. 

 

I can live with that as I see no rational reason for the ban of DMDs on tours. If we compare a tour player in a competition and a club player on a familiar course the only time one needs special guidance is when one is in a place where one is not supposed to be and usually where one has never been before.

 

It all comes to the player's ability to keep his position relative to the group in front. Anything else is unimportant.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, R_Swanson said:

Dottie's argument was basically that figuring out the yardage by walking it off was integral to the game. 

 Integral to the game in today's society..? Wow...

 

Dottie must be a fan of 6-hour rounds.

[R_Swanson]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 Integral to the game in today's society..? Wow...

 

Dottie must be a fan of 6-hour rounds.

At least on the professional level, yes, that was her argument: Yardage books and walking off yardages is an important skill, vital to determining a champion.

 

Anyone who has played competitive golf at any level knows that as a 14 year old you can walk off yardages to +/- 1/2 a yard about 99% of the time.  How this skill is so vital in a competition with touring pros and caddies who can all do the same thing is beyond me.

 

Another way to say this is its already a level playing field in regards to getting yardages, they can all do this to pretty-much the exact number.  Just let them have the technology, even if it only saves 10 mins per round, at least its something.

Edited May 24 by R_Swanson

[BrianM18]

I was actually there for some practice rounds and the 1st round and many ppl were using them. I was at the 13th tee box for a majority of that Thursday and a few ppl were shooting the creek 

after reading this topic i checked some photos and here was one of Bryson handing it over to his caddy after he used it 

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, R_Swanson said:

Yardage books and walking off yardages is an important skill, vital to determining a champion.

 

I bet it used to be 100 years ago but today it is a different story.

 

Any caddie can train them to be very accurate in pacing off but that does not negate the fact that pacing off is waaaaay slower than using a DMD. Not to mention that it is allowed to use any club to measure the distance so measuring the driver accurately before the round and using that to "pace off" is much more precise than walking.

 

Dottie is part of the dinosaur generation. I am glad she is in the minority.

[rogolf]

Imo, DMD's have not sped up the amateur game or club games, I sincerely doubt that they would speed up the professional game!  It's just a myth.

[Mudguard]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Imo, DMD's have not sped up the amateur game or club games, I sincerely doubt that they would speed up the professional game!  It's just a myth.

 

I think it's just one of those things. For some it's speed things up, for us certainly. But I guess you'll have a group where a player will zap it ten times and then top it or something.

Normally whoever is on the par three tee first in groups I play with will yell out the number, so it's not like four measurements are being taken. Apart from the one guy who still has his rangefinder in yards!

[RCGA]

16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Imo, DMD's have not sped up the amateur game or club games, I sincerely doubt that they would speed up the professional game!  It's just a myth.

 

What? 

 

I remember as a junior having to walk around the fairway trying to find a yardage on a sprinkler head or pace off a yardage from the 150y marker. Do that 14 times a round at 15 seconds each and that's 3.5min. Multiple that by four players and it's 14 minutes added to your time. 

 

Not to mention that error in yardages in thinking it was 145 but was actually 155 and coming up short (causing more shots, causing longer rounds). 

 

Laser means I walk up to my ball with the laser in hand and have the exact yardage within 5 seconds.