Game improvement or player irons

[DubDub]

I'm wondering do I need game improvement irons or player irons. I'm currently playing Ping EI's with stiff dynamic gold 120 s300 steel shafts (are these game improvement clubs or players? A guy at my course said they were for players). I'm a high handicap 14-16. I really can't shape shots. I just really want to get good contact and decent ball flight. Any suggestions on some good irons that would help? I'm also taking lessons right  now.  Thanks

Edited June 3, 2023 by DubDub

[Mobert19]

You sound like the ideal candidate to benefit from a true iron fitting. 

[Chunkitgood]

Today’s “players” irons are mostly game improvement irons.

 

Look at Mr. Maltby’s rating of the T100.

 

The I E1 is also rated by him as game improvement.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/head-mpf-ratings/

 

You have perfectly serviceable clubs.  The relatively high MOI might GIVE you a low launch angle.  In the long run that’s a good thing, cause you need to learn to strike the ball properly after which you won’t have to worry about getting the ball in the air.

 

You might well have the best type of club to develop your game with.  High MOI and high COG.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Latest and greatest game Improvement irons from Ping.  Whether player irons are merited depends on your game and golf goals, if you have any.  If your index is above 10, IMO stay away from player irons, UNLESS you're going to put in a lot of range time to enhance ball striking and distance control, so you can benefit from player design.

 

My bias is contrary to the Maltby's odd rating of my clubs, for most people.  And most of my friends who are average 12-17 index players, wouldn't understand how to align his rating of a given club to their skill level, unless someone is an engineering geek. LOL

 

My MBs are Classic, my 620 CB Conventional, T-MBs are Conventional, and T100s are Game Improvement, my index was a 2, now a 4.  Then there's Super Game Improvement.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[HarborMike]

1 hour ago, Mobert19 said:

You sound like the ideal candidate to benefit from a true iron fitting. 

Agreed. You stated at 14 handicap, but begs the question do you want to eventually shape shots along with (no wrong answers btw):

1. Are you looking just to find something that’s easy to hit that’s forgiving, distance, etc.?

2. Are you planning on putting the time in to get better (e.g. range sessions, lessons, more golf) to include learning how to shape shots and lowering your handicap and scorecard?

3. Or you just want to just have fun and not be punished with less than forgiving clubs?

 

Back to the point of getting a fitting, these are some of the questions your fitter should be asking. But if you’re just looking to find something off the rack and enjoy yourself, there’s lots of great clubs nowadays that are fairly easy to hit. Even some of the GI clubs you can still shape as you get better. My choices for this category (for the newer equipment and not in any particular order):

1. Ping G430s

2. Mizuno Hot Metals

3. Taylormade Stealth

4. Titleist T300s

5. Callaway Paradym

6. PXG 0311 XP

 

Here’s my other picks that sit on the edge or in the GI/Players/Players Distance category for easy to hit (meaning you don’t have to necessarily be a great ball striker to game and can work your way into shot shaping):

1. Callaway Apex DCB

2. PXG 0311 P or 0211 XCOR 2s

3. Mizuno Hot Metal Pros

4. Taylormade P790s

5. Srixon Z5 or Z4s

6. Titleist T200s

 

Im missing a lot more, but those are my recommendations in my head.

[MelloYello]

Having tried a lot of different things ranging from one extreme to the other, blades to hybrids, I would suggest you try to find the most forgiving and easiest-to-hit iron you can stand to play. 

 

The higher, straighter, further and more consistent you can be on the course, the better scores you'll shoot. That should be your goal. 

 

My current set is pretty crazy at a glance but it really works well and probably would for a lot of today's players, even some who are still developing.

 

I have players irons 7-P to maximize distance control but I've got more hybrid-style "driving" irons in my 4-6 to help me hit it higher and straight and land the ball more softly at long distance. 

 

 

.

Edited June 3, 2023 by MelloYello

[DubDub]

Thanks everyone. I went and got fitted minutes after posting this. I think i'm going to find some really good improvement clubs for the reasons listed above. I dont have alot of practice time and I just want some good, high distance just so I dont stink up the place.

[eric61]

3 hours ago, HarborMike said:

Agreed. You stated at 14 handicap, but begs the question do you want to eventually shape shots along with (no wrong answers btw):

1. Are you looking just to find something that’s easy to hit that’s forgiving, distance, etc.?

2. Are you planning on putting the time in to get better (e.g. range sessions, lessons, more golf) to include learning how to shape shots and lowering your handicap and scorecard?

3. Or you just want to just have fun and not be punished with less than forgiving clubs?

 

Back to the point of getting a fitting, these are some of the questions your fitter should be asking. But if you’re just looking to find something off the rack and enjoy yourself, there’s lots of great clubs nowadays that are fairly easy to hit. Even some of the GI clubs you can still shape as you get better. My choices for this category (for the newer equipment and not in any particular order):

1. Ping G430s

2. Mizuno Hot Metals

3. Taylormade Stealth

4. Titleist T300s

5. Callaway Paradym

6. PXG 0311 XP

 

Here’s my other picks that sit on the edge or in the GI/Players/Players Distance category for easy to hit (meaning you don’t have to necessarily be a great ball striker to game and can work your way into shot shaping):

1. Callaway Apex DCB

2. PXG 0311 P or 0211 XCOR 2s

3. Mizuno Hot Metal Pros

4. Taylormade P790s

5. Srixon Z5 or Z4s

6. Titleist T200s

 

Im missing a lot more, but those are my recommendations in my head.

It sounds like OP got things sorted out, but I really like this list and wanted to weigh in if others are thinking about the same sort of question.

 

I think the G430s are an especially good option for a lot of people. They still spin, which makes them extremely playable for a huge range of handicaps.

 

The best advice I can give with G430s, since they added an extra wedge, is just to shift your thinking about the set by one club. The 5 iron is your 4 iron; the 8 iron is your 9 iron; the 45 is your pitching wedge. 
 

If you think about it that way, you can build a set that starts at a 22 degree iron (which happens to be labeled a “5” but don’t get hung up on that!) and gaps really well all the way down to whatever your first specialty wedge is. 
 

If the G430 is too big for you, the Paradyms are great, and the turf interaction is especially strong if you order them a degree weak.

[Mobert19]

21 minutes ago, DubDub said:

Thanks everyone. I went and got fitted minutes after posting this. I think i'm going to find some really good improvement clubs for the reasons listed above. I dont have alot of practice time and I just want some good, high distance just so I dont stink up the place.

Damn you don't waste any time! Love it. 

[DubDub]

42 minutes ago, Mobert19 said:

Damn you don't waste any time! Love it. 

Trying to get better! Time waits for no man hahaha

[hammergolf]

6 hours ago, DubDub said:

I'm wondering do I need game improvement irons or player irons. I'm currently playing Ping EI's with stiff dynamic gold 120 s300 steel shafts (are these game improvement clubs or players? A guy at my course said they were for players). I'm a high handicap 14-16. I really can't shape shots. I just really want to get good contact and decent ball flight. Any suggestions on some good irons that would help? I'm also taking lessons right  now.  Thanks

I would recommend a set of  PXG XCOR2 0211 irons. You get the forgiveness of GI irons and the feel of players irons. At $100 per club you won’t find a better deal. Attached is a thread of reviews for them.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by hammergolf

[gvogel]

3 hours ago, DubDub said:

Thanks everyone. I went and got fitted minutes after posting this. I think i'm going to find some really good improvement clubs for the reasons listed above. I dont have alot of practice time and I just want some good, high distance just so I dont stink up the place.

Pray tell, what did the fitter recommend?

 

Based on using stiff Dynamic shafts, distance probably isn't an issue.  Although, you didn't indicate the distances that you hit your irons.

 

Do you slice a bit or leave the ball off the right?  A bit more offset than an "I" iron might be good - so looking at the Ping G425 (not very game improvement) or G430 (a bit more game improvement) might be a good idea.

 

I've been playing for a long time and can hit the ball pretty straight.  I could play T100 irons, and indeed for years I played AP2 in 7-iron to PW.  But at my age I like the slightly longer flight provided by T300.

 

So there are different ways of skinning the cat.  I may pick up some Mizuno JPX 923 Forged irons, 7-PW just for the fun of it, and they probably won't improve or deteriorate my game at all.  I played hickory irons in hickory tournaments and they had no offset, and I could make them work.  But mine had more flexible shafts than the stronger guys that I played with.  For some of us, shafts are important.

[ChipNRun]

6 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

My bias is contrary to the Maltby's odd rating of my clubs, for most people.

 

 

Part of the confusion: The Maltby and Hot List systems categorize irons differently. I put together the above diagram shows the approximate overlap of the two system's categories.

• Maltby Playability Factor classifies iron models using clubhead measurements (normally the 6i) it puts into a four-factor algebraic equation. MPF assigns points and uses the scores to place the irons into one of six categories. Rough summary: the lower the clubhead CoG, the higher the MPF score.
• The Hot List, however, categorizes iron models according to OEM's intended market niche. Original Hot List system added Players Distance category in 2018.

Given, the categories sometimes run together on the edges. Using Hot List categories, some things to consider: Game Improvement irons are sometimes higher lofted, which can help with launch and sometimes lead to a more stable distance yardstick. Players Distance irons can give more distance, if you have enough clubhead speed to launch properly. But, distance yardstick may be more unstable, especially in longer irons. True Players iron models are becoming rarer, as more companies put a little extra launch help in the heads of the longer irons.

 

@DubDub,I have read the follow-up posts, and it looks like you realized...

7 hours ago, Mobert19 said:

You sound like the ideal candidate to benefit from a true iron fitting. 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by ChipNRun
Syntax.

[Albatross Dreamer]

Who cares what "category" an iron is labeled as? Pick the ones you hit the best and/or enjoy playing the most (with enjoyment being subjective and personalized to you)

[sfleming]

good job getting into a fitting just to see what's out there and what suits your eye.

I'm a believer in getting the right shaft. I think I could hit about whatever head you put on the right shaft (although I know some think the shaft is just for fine tuning and the head is the key)

[DubDub]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

Pray tell, what did the fitter recommend?

 

Based on using stiff Dynamic shafts, distance probably isn't an issue.  Although, you didn't indicate the distances that you hit your irons.

 

Do you slice a bit or leave the ball off the right?  A bit more offset than an "I" iron might be good - so looking at the Ping G425 (not very game improvement) or G430 (a bit more game improvement) might be a good idea.

 

I've been playing for a long time and can hit the ball pretty straight.  I could play T100 irons, and indeed for years I played AP2 in 7-iron to PW.  But at my age I like the slightly longer flight provided by T300.

 

So there are different ways of skinning the cat.  I may pick up some Mizuno JPX 923 Forged irons, 7-PW just for the fun of it, and they probably won't improve or deteriorate my game at all.  I played hickory irons in hickory tournaments and they had no offset, and I could make them work.  But mine had more flexible shafts than the stronger guys that I played with.  For some of us, shafts are important.

He said I had clubs that were good for me 1/2 an inch longer, the lie was a little more upright (mine are 3 he suggested 2) stiff.

I think I'm going to try some game improvements, if I find some reasonably priced.  he let me hit a few,  I jfelt way more confident   with them. 

[bikeNslice]

Lessons and fitting probably can give you an idea, but the best advice I've read is play whatever makes the game more fun.  I started out with some GI Wilson Staffs, then moved to a half set of 1960 Spalding blades and started lowering my handicap. Moved to some Sub70 players irons and ended up with a Geom cb/mb half set.  Finding a decent coach and playing consistently had a way bigger impact than what I was hitting.  So long story short, either keep what you have or find a set that you like without thinking about the category, and have some fun.

[Pepperturbo]

On 6/3/2023 at 5:36 PM, ChipNRun said:

Part of the confusion: The Maltby and Hot List systems categorize irons differently. I put together the above diagram shows the approximate overlap of the two system's categories.

• Maltby Playability Factor classifies iron models using clubhead measurements (normally the 6i) it puts into a four-factor algebraic equation. MPF assigns points and uses the scores to place the irons into one of six categories. Rough summary: the lower the clubhead CoG, the higher the MPF score.
• The Hot List, however, categorizes iron models according to OEM's intended market niche. Original Hot List system added Players Distance category in 2018.

Thanks for that post effort,

 

There's no confusion on my part.  Charts like Maltby's, has no influence on my thinking or decisions regarding clubs.  The confusion or lack of interest is or will be with the average golfer that isn't aware of or cares about such recommendations.  As knowledgeable as Maltby is, he's out of view for most golfers today.

[me05501]

It depends on how you use your irons. 

 

Irons were originally designed to be hit with a descending blow such that the ideal ball impact location is 3-4 grooves above the bottom edge of the club.

 

If you hit your irons this way you can grab just about any design made today and it should work well for you without a lot of adjustment. Having a proper descending attack opens you up to trying almost any design that fits your eye or budget. 

 

Many players these days don't really hit down on the ball at all. They've always used perimeter-weighted clubs with wide, smooth soles and a low CG so sweeping the ball off the turf works just fine for them. There's nothing wrong with that and tons of people get excellent results that way. However it does limit you to staying with irons that allow for a sweeping attack. 

 

 

 

 

[BigMac_Finn]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:29 AM, DubDub said:

I'm wondering do I need game improvement irons or player irons. I'm currently playing Ping EI's with stiff dynamic gold 120 s300 steel shafts (are these game improvement clubs or players? A guy at my course said they were for players). I'm a high handicap 14-16. I really can't shape shots. I just really want to get good contact and decent ball flight. Any suggestions on some good irons that would help? I'm also taking lessons right  now.  Thanks

Your profile says 19 😉 and wow a 14-16 is a high handicap for you.. what is a mid and low??

 

Question, are you needing to shape shots and do you know how to do so? That is why they came up with the new cat "Players Distance" gives you a bit of the forgiveness of Game Improv but has some characteristics to players.. 

 

Also dont be fooled.. I know a ton of very low handicappers 2-4 that play with "game improvement" irons just fine.. When asked "Why dont you play with players or players distance irons" .. I get the response.. I hit down the pipe on drives (or at least curve my drives the way I want them) so hitting slide fades/draws with game improvement irons are just fine.. Touche I said.. 

[solson20]

I was fitted at Club Champion a couple years ago for some player's irons.  I had a great experience and they let me try whatever i wanted, which i liked.  Once you hit a few different make/models and compare the numbers, it will help you make the decision.  

[Milfordlefty]

Good job on getting a fitting. Any issues found with the Ping EI's? You say a 14-16 hdcp, but didn't say if your irons is where you are leaking shots. One can be a great iron player, but if chip/pitch and putting stink, a change in irons is not going to necessarily change score. This year I've improved driver, fwy wood & wedges, but irons and putting is where I am leaking the most strokes.

Let us know what new irons you pick up.

[2Down]

I play the ie1 in the same spec and like it quite a bit.  They are what I like.  Gotta admit the cavity graphics dont speak to me but the lead tape over it makes it OK. 

you say at the end of your post that you are going for a lesson soon.  Wait till after you have that under your belt and take his advice, i would be surprised he changes you up much.  And he will have first hand experience with your swing and needs. We’re just a bunch of net geeks who play and love sharing info but really pay attention to him a tad more than us.

 

[Cmiles]

Fitting with some game improvements