True or False: If Scheffler could putt, he'd be the closest thing to prime Tiger of the last 25 years?

[redfirebird08]

On 6/4/2023 at 7:47 PM, Shilgy said:

Right now it’s closer than you seem to think.

 

2006 Tiger was +2.982 and Scheffler is currently at +2.775 tee to green.  Another week like this one where he was over +20 tee to green for the week and his pace will be past Tigers.

 

Shocks me after looking that up but the man is playing fantastic and gotta give him his due credit.

The Strokes Gained stats do not go back to Tiger’s real peak, which was 2000. He drove it much straighter in 2000 than any of the seasons with Hank Haney. He was a scrambling wizard and phenomenal with the irons under Haney, but he was darn near dead last in driving accuracy. Pretty amazing that he found a way to win so many tournaments in that time period (2005 to 2009). 

[chisag]

... IF and THEN discussions can be fun and interesting, but they are flawed by their very nature. We have no idea what or IF will change things. Players Like Hogan, Nicklaus and Tiger in their prime wanted to completely destroy their opponents, shake their confidence and make them question if they should even be playing golf. Scotty seems like a really good person and as much as he wants to win every time he plays, he doesn't seem like he wants to destroy an opponent, he just wants to shoot a lower score then they do.

 

... I think you have to be a pretty miserable person to be the very best in the world at anything because it takes a single minded selfish desire over everything else and Scotty seems balanced and happy. So IF Scotty started making putts and dominating the field most every week would he become more ruthless or more affable? IF more ruthless he could challenge Tiger in his prime. IF more affable he would still lose to someone he didn't want to absolutely crush mentally every now and then, and would just be the most popular #1 player in the world because he would be great and likable. 

Edited June 10 by chisag

[Dave230]

If Vijay Singh could putt, he'd have beaten Tiger half the time. Scheffler closer to Vijay Singh the way he's playing at the moment, Singh was a brilliant and consistent ball-striker.

 

2004: Vijay Singh had +2.3 tee to green, 0.4 better than Tiger. Best on tour.

2005: Singh had +2 tee to green, 0.3 better than Tiger. Best on tour. Singh was top 10 in all the majors, Tiger won 2 majors.

 

Then Tiger went to another level in 2006-07, and Singh was back top on tour in 2008 (Woods stats didn't count because of injury but way well have been top. 2003 they don't have strokes gained stats but I'd say Singh would have topped that too.

 

In that time period 2003-08, Singh won 1 major, Woods won 6. Ultimately Tiger was a better putter when it mattered. It's up to Scheffler to improve his putting to avoid only getting one major in this hot ball-striking phase.

 

Edited June 10 by Dave230

[OBbogey5]

FALSE

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, OBbogey5 said:

FALSE

Ok, so who in your opinion is?  The OP is not is Scheffler the equal to Tiger….putting or not.   The question asked WOULD Scheffler be the nearest thing to Tiger in the last 25 years if he was a better putter.

 

Since you say no who in the last 25 years is the nearest thing to Tiger but missing something? In this case the question asked missing the putting skill of Tiger.

[jimecherry]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Ok, so who in your opinion is?  The OP is not is Scheffler the equal to Tiger….putting or not.   The question asked WOULD Scheffler be the nearest thing to Tiger in the last 25 years if he was a better putter.

 

Since you say no who in the last 25 years is the nearest thing to Tiger but missing something? In this case the question asked missing the putting skill of Tiger.

nearest thing to tiger imho was yjs for that short 2 year stretch. and if scottie could putt he would still be mediocre from the bunker ;} i think the real issue with the question is the assumption that scottie would win automagically if he made 4-8 more putts per tournament.

Edited June 11 by jimecherry

[Shilgy]

43 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

nearest thing to tiger imho was yjs for that short 2 year stretch. and if scottie could putt he would still be mediocre from the bunker ;} i think the real issue with the question is the assumption that scottie would win automagically if he made 4-8 more putts per tournament.

Hmm 4-8 putts per event?

 

These are his close calls this year…on top of his two wins at Phoenix and the Players

 

event                               Strokes lost by

World wide technology. 5

Sentry toc 6

American Express 5

Arnold Palmer inv 2

Masters 8

Heritage 5

att Byron Nelson 3

PGA 2

Charles Schwab 1

Memorial 1

 

Thats five events lost by 3 strokes or less…one per round would cover it.

And five more that fit in your 4-8 window.

Edited June 11 by Shilgy

[redfirebird08]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Ok, so who in your opinion is?  The OP is not is Scheffler the equal to Tiger….putting or not.   The question asked WOULD Scheffler be the nearest thing to Tiger in the last 25 years if he was a better putter.

 

Since you say no who in the last 25 years is the nearest thing to Tiger but missing something? In this case the question asked missing the putting skill of Tiger.

Koepka is the closest thing to prime Tiger that we’ve seen lately. Only thing missing with Brooks is that he doesn’t seem to care as much about regular events as Tiger did. 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, redfirebird08 said:

Koepka is the closest thing to prime Tiger that we’ve seen lately. Only thing missing with Brooks is that he doesn’t seem to care as much about regular events as Tiger did. 

Could be….but that puts him further behind imo.

 

I always wondered the chicken or the egg question with Koepka.  He conveniently didn’t care about regular wins when he was on an inexplicable run in majors…..then softened a bit when that stopped but he won a few regular events.

[jimecherry]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Hmm 4-8 putts per event?

 

These are his close calls this year…on top of his two wins at Phoenix and the Players

 

event                               Strokes lost by

World wide technology. 5

Sentry toc 6

American Express 5

Arnold Palmer inv 2

Masters 8

Heritage 5

att Byron Nelson 3

PGA 2

Charles Schwab 1

Memorial 1

 

Thats five events lost by 3 strokes or less…one per round would cover it.

And five more that fit in your 4-8 window.

your proving   my point if he made 4-8 more putts per tournament he would win unless the other golfers played better which in all likely hood they would

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

your proving   my point if he made 4-8 more putts per tournament he would win unless the other golfers played better which in all likely hood they would

Another way to look at it is that he would extend his current lead in the OWGR.  

But yeah, if he putted better the other guys would play better and beat him anyways.😏

[aenemated]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Since you say no who in the last 25 years is the nearest thing to Tiger but missing something?

 

No one. Ever. In professional golf. No one ever. Yeah, I said it. Tiger made some big time putts. Jack made some big time putts. But neither were pouring it in everywhere all the time. 

 

It's not simply about making putts, it's overall performance. I know the theory behind SG is supposed to normalize all that but - it's just numbers to sell people. "76% of stats are made up." I used to make a lot of money selling made up stats to people. (Man, I shoulda stayed in the sports betting gig 20 years ago) 

 

You simply can't normalize something as overall random as golf. The greatest thing about golf is that you can screw up absolutely horribly ... and make it all up with one great and totally random moment. Or play spectacularly and ruin it all with one bad one. 

 

All the stats would say Brooks was gonna walk away from Augusta in a green jacket. Like easily. He didn't. Hell, Tiger didn't charge out and win 2019 with stellar play; he played within himself and let everyone else fall apart around him.

 

You can't quantify these things. There's too much random in golf.

[Dave230]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Ok, so who in your opinion is?  The OP is not is Scheffler the equal to Tiger….putting or not.   The question asked WOULD Scheffler be the nearest thing to Tiger in the last 25 years if he was a better putter.

 

Since you say no who in the last 25 years is the nearest thing to Tiger but missing something? In this case the question asked missing the putting skill of Tiger.

The closest all-round game to Tiger was probably Jason Day for about 18 months. The closest peak performance to Tiger was probably Rory when he could win by 8 on a good day. The closest putter was Spieth for a few years. The closest in majors is Koepka since 2017. The closest in consistent excellence on Tour is Rahm since he turned professional. Then we have DJ, Thomas and others.

 

Basically if you took parts of everyone then you’d get Tiger. Scheffler has been very impressive recently but so have other players over 18 month to 2 year periods, let’s see him do it over 5 years and win a few majors with it.

[So_Cal]

In order for the best ball strikers to separate themselves again there needs to be an equipment rollback.  Modern equipment helps the very good player stay with the great ball strikers. 

[Fairways_and_Greens]

3 hours ago, So_Cal said:

In order for the best ball strikers to separate themselves again there needs to be an equipment rollback.  Modern equipment helps the very good player stay with the great ball strikers. 

Scottie had 20.74 strokes gained: tee-to-green at the Memorial last week... He finished 1 stroke off he lead. If he putted like an average pro he would have won by 8. He just needs to putt.

[So_Cal]

1 hour ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

Scottie had 20.74 strokes gained: tee-to-green at the Memorial last week... He finished 1 stroke off he lead. If he putted like an average pro he would have won by 8. He just needs to putt.

We will never see another Tiger like player until equipment isn’t so easy to hit.  Jmo 

[Fairways_and_Greens]

15 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

We will never see another Tiger like player until equipment isn’t so easy to hit.  Jmo 

I have an alternative view. In the 80s/90s when Tiger grew up, there were some special ball strikers. Now with TrackMan, Gears, etc, everyone with access has the ability to optimize every club in the bag. More than the ball/metal woods, scientific equipment has caused the bunching we see today. Barely less than a decade ago instructors still taught that the ball started in path and curved with face. 
 

Losing strokes with wedges? Get a Trackman, learn D-plane, and grind line DJ. Losing strokes with putts? Learn AimPoint. Short off the tee? Do speed training like Fitzy. Bad decision making? Hire a stats guy. 
 

The body of knowledge is growing and it can’t be put back into the bottle. 
 

One thing is for sure, any rollback that may happen, everything will be reoptimized in about 2 weeks. 

[So_Cal]

1 minute ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

I have an alternative view. In the 80s/90s when Tiger grew up, there were some special ball strikers. Now with TrackMan, Gears, etc, everyone with access has the ability to optimize every club in the bag. More than the ball/metal woods, scientific equipment has caused the bunching we see today. Barely less than a decade ago instructors still taught that the ball started in path and curved with face. 
 

Losing strokes with wedges? Get a Trackman, learn D-plane, and grind line DJ. Losing strokes with putts? Learn AimPoint. Short off the tee? Do speed training like Fitzy. Bad decision making? Hire a stats guy. 
 

The body of knowledge is growing and it can’t be put back into the bottle. 
 

One thing is for sure, any rollback that may happen, everything will be reoptimized in about 2 weeks. 

Very good post and I agree.  I would like to see a larger rollback for pros, not just balls.  Hitting a persimmon/steel driver would separate the men from the boys regardless of trackman because the skill required is so much higher, especially under pressure.  Probably never going to happen though.  So we will continue to see parity. 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, So_Cal said:

Very good post and I agree.  I would like to see a larger rollback for pros, not just balls.  Hitting a persimmon/steel driver would separate the men from the boys regardless of trackman because the skill required is so much higher, especially under pressure.  Probably never going to happen though.  So we will continue to see parity. 

I think you’d be surprised how many “men” there would be.

 

Edited to elaborate a bit…..in my opinion there were just fewer elites in Jacks day.  Not an equipment separation.  Today there are many.

 

 

But there will still be someone that has the complete game to dominate.

Edited June 11 by Shilgy

[So_Cal]

36 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I think you’d be surprised how many “men” there would be.

 

Edited to elaborate a bit…..in my opinion there were just fewer elites in Jacks day.  Not an equipment separation.  Today there are many.

 

 

But there will still be someone that has the complete game to dominate.

I don’t disagree with you.  I’d just like to see guys have to hit more difficult shots down the stretch in big tournaments.  Modern tech makes it so much easier.  Setups wouldn’t have to be so tricked up either.  Roll it back and widen the fairways.  Bring back more strategy 

[Dave230]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

I think you’d be surprised how many “men” there would be.

 

Edited to elaborate a bit…..in my opinion there were just fewer elites in Jacks day.  Not an equipment separation.  Today there are many.

 

 

But there will still be someone that has the complete game to dominate.

Billy Horschel made a point of that on a podcast that he looks at his spots on the driver and compares it to other players who are missing the sweetspot by miles but getting away with it and it really frustrates him. So why then not try to blast the driver as hard as you possibly can, because there will be enough forgiveness to make up for it. For most of golf history, players would swing 80-90% in competitions because the risk of a mishit wasn't worth it. Now it is worth it, the current equipment does not reward those who focus on the sweetspot, instead those with the fastest swing speed.

[redfirebird08]

8 hours ago, So_Cal said:

In order for the best ball strikers to separate themselves again there needs to be an equipment rollback.  Modern equipment helps the very good player stay with the great ball strikers. 

The modern equipment was very much helping the guys in 2005 to 2009 and yet Tiger found a way to win a huge percentage of his starts. The key is putting, short game, and strategy. If you can be really sharp in those areas, you can still separate yourself from the other guys. 

[Fairways_and_Greens]

51 minutes ago, Dave230 said:

Billy Horschel made a point of that on a podcast that he looks at his spots on the driver and compares it to other players who are missing the sweetspot by miles but getting away with it and it really frustrates him. So why then not try to blast the driver as hard as you possibly can, because there will be enough forgiveness to make up for it. For most of golf history, players would swing 80-90% in competitions because the risk of a mishit wasn't worth it. Now it is worth it, the current equipment does not reward those who focus on the sweetspot, instead those with the fastest swing speed.

Billy’s driveway doesn’t go all the way out to the road. 

[So_Cal]

5 hours ago, redfirebird08 said:

The modern equipment was very much helping the guys in 2005 to 2009 and yet Tiger found a way to win a huge percentage of his starts. The key is putting, short game, and strategy. If you can be really sharp in those areas, you can still separate yourself from the other guys. 

I don’t think we’ll ever see another Tiger with 15+ majors unless there is a major rollback.  I could be wrong however 

[Shilgy]

43 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

I don’t think we’ll ever see another Tiger with 15+ majors unless there is a major rollback.  I could be wrong however 

Considering there have only been two 15+ major winners in 150 or so years of professional golf you may be right.  But wouldn’t, imo, be because of equipment in any way.

 

That said, I do expect another dominant force in the game that wins a dozen or more majors and 60+ total wins.  I hope to still be alive to see it happen.

[Justsomeguy]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:33 PM, Dave230 said:

If Vijay Singh could putt, he'd have beaten Tiger half the time. Scheffler closer to Vijay Singh the way he's playing at the moment, Singh was a brilliant and consistent ball-striker.

 

2004: Vijay Singh had +2.3 tee to green, 0.4 better than Tiger. Best on tour.

2005: Singh had +2 tee to green, 0.3 better than Tiger. Best on tour. Singh was top 10 in all the majors, Tiger won 2 majors.

 

Then Tiger went to another level in 2006-07, and Singh was back top on tour in 2008 (Woods stats didn't count because of injury but way well have been top. 2003 they don't have strokes gained stats but I'd say Singh would have topped that too.

 

In that time period 2003-08, Singh won 1 major, Woods won 6. Ultimately Tiger was a better putter when it mattered. It's up to Scheffler to improve his putting to avoid only getting one major in this hot ball-striking phase.

 

I think this is a close comparison w Scheffler and Rahm. Rahm is an uncanny putter.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

Nobody is tiger. Not even tiger is tiger. The next thing to tiger might be charlie. The closest may be brooks imo actually and it still aint close. Brooks has the instinct when healthy. Tiger was a robot and charlie has that blood so he may be close. Scotty and rahm are the best though right now. Brooks maybe 2nd or 3rd maybe 1 if he wins this us open. DJ is done lol cam Smith still can be great but hes kinda just relaxing. J day still good but maybe too late. Rory will win again but not this year. Everyone one else seems kinda give or take can win at any moment but not dominate or win 2 majors in a year. Rahm scotty brooks top 3.

Edited June 13 by iNeedMoreGolf
..

[TexasTurf]

I would argue that he is still a great putter, they just haven't been falling the last few weeks. Happens to everyone. You don't get to where he is in pro golf without that skill.