Cheating

[jigsaw1011]

My son occasionally plays our local pga section tournaments when he has a break between other higher level tournaments.  He likes to do them because he is friends with a lot of the other players and enjoys the courses where they are held.  Those are the positives of playing the events.  The negatives are the cheating that takes place.  The cheating varies in severity but it is almost always present. The TD is a nice guy but pretty ineffective in most areas of running a tournament.  We have spoken to him directly on a number of occasions about incidents. The advice given is to report it to a rules official. 

 

This past tournament a player was taking phone calls as he was walking down the fairway as well as texting during any down time.  The tournament has a no phone policy. My son told the rules official and the player was given a warning.  Two holes later he is talking on the phone again.  My son tells the rules official who calls the TD and was told to give the kid a final warning.  The player is still on the phone for the rest of the round. 

 

Same player "fixes" the hole twice before putting.  The player doesn't communicate to the others in the group what he is doing or ask if they are in agreement about the issue with the hole  My son said  the cup was not damaged but had normal wear and tear.  My son brings the issue to the TD at the table (which he has been instructed do whenever we have spoken to the TD) and the kid says the cup was damaged.  He is told to next time have a rules official come over to fix it instead of being assessed a penalty. 

 

Same tournament in another group two of the players realize a third player shaved 5 shots off his score.  The third player admits he did indeed shave the shots and instead of a DQ the TD makes it a MC (tournament had no cut). These are just a few examples.  My son is completely fustrated (and so am I) at this point.  Quite a few of these events are qualifiers for larger tournaments so it makes it difficult to just not participate.  We are not the only family who has expressed their concerns to the TD over the years with having no resolution.  Any thoughts?

Edited August 4 by jigsaw1011
typos

[caniac6]

Is there someone that you can contact about the TD? The administrators of these events need to know that the TD is not running these events properly.

[Tannerbug33]

i would be contacting the tournaments that use this tour as a qualifier. Let them know you will not be trying to qualify for there tournaments due to credability issues. tell them you are not sure its a refection of them are not but you are afraid it could. 

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

My son who just a few years was playing in tournaments was a TD this past year for a regional tour.

 

He told me what I had been telling him for years.  Some of the worse cheats are the parents.

 

At one tournament a parent would not leave the green or constantly talking to the child.  The other parents brought it to his attention.  The parent was warned several times.  He would leave the green when him or an intern would come back.  He was finally got at a distance  Son called the league and DQ'ed the child.

 

Its bad for the children but you ever want a bad apple ruining it for other players. 

 

I have seen or heard about cheating at each level with my son.  From HS and  Junior to College.

 

 

Edited August 8 by TripleBogeysrbetter

[golfortennis]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:29 AM, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

My son who just a few years was playing in tournaments was a TD this past year for a regional tour.

 

He told me what I had been telling him for years.  Some of the worse cheats are the parents.

 

At one tournament a parent would not leave the green or constantly talking to the child.  The other parents brought it to his attention.  The parent was warned several times.  He would leave the green when him or an intern would come back.  He was finally got at a distance  Son called the league and DQ'ed the child.

 

Its bad for the children but you ever want a bad apple ruining it for other players. 

 

I have seen or heard about cheating at each level with my son.  From HS and  Junior to College.

 

 

 

College.... I get the other levels, but I have to think come college it's a lot tougher to pull off?

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

15 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

College.... I get the other levels, but I have to think come college it's a lot tougher to pull off?

You would be surprise.  I am not talking the ones with spotters all over the place.  But a stroke here or there.  Some kids they were in HS.

 

I heard about it more in qualifying.  One kid is with his roommate and they both shoot something to qualify and then lay a turd during a tournament.

[golfortennis]

5 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

You would be surprise.  I am not talking the ones with spotters all over the place.  But a stroke here or there.  Some kids they were in HS.

 

I heard about it more in qualifying.  One kid is with his roommate and they both shoot something to qualify and then lay a turd during a tournament.

 

OK, yeah that makes sense.  I was thinking in the tournaments.

[ATXGolferGuy]

18 hours ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

You would be surprise.  I am not talking the ones with spotters all over the place.  But a stroke here or there.  Some kids they were in HS.

 

I heard about it more in qualifying.  One kid is with his roommate and they both shoot something to qualify and then lay a turd during a tournament.

That is just poor coaching with an extreme lack of team control.  The others on the team should be speaking up as well.  A good coach isn't going to let the players just randomly decide who plays with who in qualifiers.

 

Sounds like the OP is talking about older junior golfers....would seem to me that kids should be able to count and know what the players in their group are scoring on most holes and if the player says I made 5 when it was clearly 6+ call them out right then and there...(can you walk me through the 5 shots...I thought it was 6,7,whatever).  At least the kid in the third example was effectively kicked out of the tournament.  MC,DQ,WD,NS,NC it's all the same thing....no score posted.  

 

I get that having a kid talk on a cell phone would be annoying but it shouldn't effect your play....unless he's talking during your swing.  Same thing with a kid "fixing" a hole.  It's not effecting your shot, so why let it bother you?  Same thing with parents talking to kids...it's annoying sure, but it shouldn't effect your play

 

I'd tell your son, "Yes I know these situations can be frustrating, but stay focused on your game.  If you play the best you can, you'll play yourself right past all that nonsense."   "Just focus on the things you can control which is your own game and how you prepare/practice for your tournaments." 

 

The higher you go the less this happens....and when it does it makes national news. PGA Tour Canada pro admits to cheating, apologizes | Golf Channel

[tatertot]

7 minutes ago, ATXGolferGuy said:

That is just poor coaching with an extreme lack of team control.  The others on the team should be speaking up as well.  A good coach isn't going to let the players just randomly decide who plays with who in qualifiers.

 

Sounds like the OP is talking about older junior golfers....would seem to me that kids should be able to count and know what the players in their group are scoring on most holes and if the player says I made 5 when it was clearly 6+ call them out right then and there...(can you walk me through the 5 shots...I thought it was 6,7,whatever).  At least the kid in the third example was effectively kicked out of the tournament.  MC,DQ,WD,NS,NC it's all the same thing....no score posted.  

 

I get that having a kid talk on a cell phone would be annoying but it shouldn't effect your play....unless he's talking during your swing.  Same thing with a kid "fixing" a hole.  It's not effecting your shot, so why let it bother you?  Same thing with parents talking to kids...it's annoying sure, but it shouldn't effect your play

 

I'd tell your son, "Yes I know these situations can be frustrating, but stay focused on your game.  If you play the best you can, you'll play yourself right past all that nonsense."   "Just focus on the things you can control which is your own game and how you prepare/practice for your tournaments." 

 

The higher you go the less this happens....and when it does it makes national news. PGA Tour Canada pro admits to cheating, apologizes | Golf Channel

It's not about what is bothering you as a player ... it's about protecting the field. The rules say no phones. If the kid is on the phone, he's breaking the rules. If you, as a player, know he's breaking the rules, and you ignore it, you are now breaking the rules as well.

[ATXGolferGuy]

4 minutes ago, tatertot said:

It's not about what is bothering you as a player ... it's about protecting the field. The rules say no phones. If the kid is on the phone, he's breaking the rules. If you, as a player, know he's breaking the rules, and you ignore it, you are now breaking the rules as well.

The OP's kid did what he should have done....told a rules official...after that, let it go and focus on your game.  It's not the kids job to "protect the field", that's the TD and rules official.  If you're spending your time worrying about your playing competitor on his phone you're not focused on the task at hand which is your golf game.

 

It's the equivalent of a football official not calling offsides when the defensive end lines up in the neutral zone over the ball pre-snap all game.  If you're focusing on the missed call by the official, you're missing something more important that could probably help you win. As long as the rules are consistent then the field is "protected".

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

26 minutes ago, ATXGolferGuy said:

  Same thing with parents talking to kids...it's annoying sure, but it shouldn't effect your play

 

 

It might not effect play.  If the player is receiving advice from a parent.  That's cheating.

 

 Or talking to player near the green.  Might be innocent or the player getting a read from the parent.

 

There is no need for the parent to talk to an older kid.  If they plan to watch the tournament they can plan out if the parent is going to buy food at the turn or pick up drinks in advance.

 

Also, agree with "That is just poor coaching with an extreme lack of team control"

We had a situation that was just a train wreck.  Son was one and done with the team.

[TroyB123]

2 hours ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

It might not effect play.  If the player is receiving advice from a parent.  That's cheating.

 

 Or talking to player near the green.  Might be innocent or the player getting a read from the parent.

 

There is no need for the parent to talk to an older kid.  If they plan to watch the tournament they can plan out if the parent is going to buy food at the turn or pick up drinks in advance.

 

Also, agree with "That is just poor coaching with an extreme lack of team control"

We had a situation that was just a train wreck.  Son was one and done with the team.

I agree with you in principal, but 99% of what I hear parents try to tell their kids in a tournament is doing the opposite of being helpful!

[Bizzle80]

2 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

I agree with you in principal, but 99% of what I hear parents try to tell their kids in a tournament is doing the opposite of being helpful!

 

So true! So many non-golfer moms/dads in SoCal trying to coach their kids. Please...'help' your kids during competition...funny to watch them cost their kids strokes.

[sui generis]

Assuming this is stroke play, if anyone is interested, here's what the Rules of Golf have to say:

 

Rule 20.1c(2) Players Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. To protect the interests of all other players:

If a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee.

 

This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns their scorecard unless it is not possible to do so.

 

If the player fails to do so, the Committee may disqualify the player under Rule 1.2a if it decides that this was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

[tatertot]

6 hours ago, ATXGolferGuy said:

The OP's kid did what he should have done....told a rules official...after that, let it go and focus on your game.  It's not the kids job to "protect the field", that's the TD and rules official.  If you're spending your time worrying about your playing competitor on his phone you're not focused on the task at hand which is your golf game.

 

It's the equivalent of a football official not calling offsides when the defensive end lines up in the neutral zone over the ball pre-snap all game.  If you're focusing on the missed call by the official, you're missing something more important that could probably help you win. As long as the rules are consistent then the field is "protected".

That's not how the rules of golf work. We don't have a team of officials watching every "play". It IS the responsibility of every player to protect the field. Has nothing to do with "consistency", the rules are the rules.

[hangontight]

53 minutes ago, tatertot said:

That's not how the rules of golf work. We don't have a team of officials watching every "play". It IS the responsibility of every player to protect the field. Has nothing to do with "consistency", the rules are the rules.

Bingo.  No grey area. Like/agree with a rule or not, it is a rule.....intent of the rules is take discretion out of play. 

 

Last weekend a kid in my sons group didn't mark his ball on the green.....other kid putts and barely hits the unmarked ball.   My son speaks up that he believes that is a two stroke penalty.  Parent (caddying) asks my son WHY?  He didnt know WHY, respectfully said I dont know why, but its the rule.. ....It doesnt matter WHY,  its a rule.  

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, hangontight said:

Bingo.  No grey area. Like/agree with a rule or not, it is a rule.....intent of the rules is take discretion out of play. 

 

Last weekend a kid in my sons group didn't mark his ball on the green.....other kid putts and barely hits the unmarked ball.   My son speaks up that he believes that is a two stroke penalty.  Parent (caddying) asks my son WHY?  He didnt know WHY, respectfully said I dont know why, but its the rule.. ....It doesnt matter WHY,  its a rule.  

Ha, speaking of that rule.  My son was playing a high school tournament this week.  10 schools with the top few schools having 3-5 guys shooting 60-70s, and bottom few with maybe 1 with a chance of breaking 80.   My son was playing with a kid in one of the latter schools and 2 other kids.   My son was setting up to putt and a kid left his ball on the green, not exactly in his line, but a realistic chance of hitting it if he went off line.   He asked him to mark it and he scoffed and said no.   He said no, you need to mark it.   The kid went down and put a mark down and didn't pick up his ball.   My son told him he needed to pick it up and he started getting angry at him and asked why he cared.  My son said he tried to explain that he'd have to take a penalty if he hit it and the other kid just scoffed, and finally picked up his ball.

 

My son knows the rules pretty well, but wasn't really prepared in knowing what to do if a guy refuses to mark it when asked!  

[mrshinsa]

4 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

Ha, speaking of that rule.  My son was playing a high school tournament this week.  10 schools with the top few schools having 3-5 guys shooting 60-70s, and bottom few with maybe 1 with a chance of breaking 80.   My son was playing with a kid in one of the latter schools and 2 other kids.   My son was setting up to putt and a kid left his ball on the green, not exactly in his line, but a realistic chance of hitting it if he went off line.   He asked him to mark it and he scoffed and said no.   He said no, you need to mark it.   The kid went down and put a mark down and didn't pick up his ball.   My son told him he needed to pick it up and he started getting angry at him and asked why he cared.  My son said he tried to explain that he'd have to take a penalty if he hit it and the other kid just scoffed, and finally picked up his ball.

 

My son knows the rules pretty well, but wasn't really prepared in knowing what to do if a guy refuses to mark it when asked!  

Rule 15.3b – Ball Anywhere on Course Interfering With Play 

b. Ball Anywhere on Course Interfering with Play

If another player reasonably believes your ball might interfere with his or her play:

• The other player may require you to mark the spot and lift your ball, which must not be cleaned (except when you lifted it from the putting green).

• If you do not mark the spot before lifting your ball, or you clean the lifted ball when not allowed, you get one penalty stroke.

• In stroke play only, if you are required to lift your ball under this Rule, you may play first instead.

You are not allowed to lift your ball under this Rule based only on your belief that your ball might interfere with another player’s play.

If you lift your ball when not required to do so by another player (except when lifting the ball on the putting green), you get one penalty stroke.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/rule-15.html

 

 

 

 

 

This kid just sounds like someone you'd never want to be paired up with in the future.  

 

[mrshinsa]

5 hours ago, hangontight said:

Bingo.  No grey area. Like/agree with a rule or not, it is a rule.....intent of the rules is take discretion out of play. 

 

Last weekend a kid in my sons group didn't mark his ball on the green.....other kid putts and barely hits the unmarked ball.   My son speaks up that he believes that is a two stroke penalty.  Parent (caddying) asks my son WHY?  He didnt know WHY, respectfully said I dont know why, but its the rule.. ....It doesnt matter WHY,  its a rule.  

 

 

There are no rules stating that a player MUST mark his ball, except under rule 15.3

a. Ball on Putting Green Helping Play

b. Ball Anywhere on Course Interfering with Play

c. Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/rule-15.html

 

If the opponent did not think his unmarked+unlifted ball was doing either of the above, and/or your son did not ask his opponent to do so prior to his stroke, then no penalty.

 

Edited August 17 by mrshinsa

[TroyB123]

7 hours ago, mrshinsa said:

 

 

There are no rules stating that a player MUST mark his ball, except under rule 15.3

a. Ball on Putting Green Helping Play

b. Ball Anywhere on Course Interfering with Play

c. Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/rule-15.html

 

If the opponent did not think his unmarked+unlifted ball was doing either of the above, and/or your son did not ask his opponent to do so prior to his stroke, then no penalty.

 

This is not correct.  It is a 2 stroke penalty charged to the player putting the ball assuming both balls are on the green.   

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/rule-11.html

[hangontight]

1 hour ago, TroyB123 said:

This is not correct.  It is a 2 stroke penalty charged to the player putting the ball assuming both balls are on the green.   

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/rule-11.html

Correct ( I believe)   Honestly I had no clue about this rule.  He is 12 , not sure where he learned it, but he has been taking my money on the course for a few years now so not suprised.    Also it wasn't my son putting.  This was between the two other players....which is my point - It didnt directly effect my son / this was all within 4 or so feet of the hole - balls barely bumped so score outcome likely not effected.....BUT, regardless it is a rule so he did the right thing to address it.

 

 

 

Edited August 17 by hangontight

[TroyB123]

3 minutes ago, hangontight said:

Correct ( I believe)   Honestly I had no clue about this rule.  He is 12 , not sure where he learned it, but he has been taking my money on the course for a few years now so not suprised.    Also it wasn't my son putting.  This was between the two other players....which is my point - It didnt directly effect my son / this was all within 4 or so feet of the hole - balls barely bumped so score outcome likely not effected.....BUT, regardless it is a rule so he did the right thing to address it.

 

 

 

It's an important rule to know.   Lots of juniors often won't mark a ball in someone's through line unless they are asked, and it is the putter's responsibilty to make sure they do if there is any chance of hitting it.   It would be a harsh learning experience to take a 2 stroke penalty on a good tournament round.

[ATXGolferGuy]

16 hours ago, tatertot said:

That's not how the rules of golf work. We don't have a team of officials watching every "play". It IS the responsibility of every player to protect the field. Has nothing to do with "consistency", the rules are the rules.

The kid did what he was supposed to do....tell a rules official, after that it's up to the official and the TD.  Your game will be much better off focusing on your own game than what your opponent is doing walking down the fairway.

 

The marking ball situation is different and not subjective....just like red vs. yellow hazards.  The no phones rule, parent talking/giving advice to kid are subjective so tell a rules official and move on.  If the rules official and TD aren't going to enforce their own local rule about no phones there isn't anything the player can do.

 

The ball hitting another ball on the green happened to me in a tournament two weeks ago.  Par 3 I miss green just short, other two guys hit the green, one close, one about 50 feet away in the back of the green.  I chip up a few feet past the hole and before I can even move to my ball to mark it, the player in the back putts and of course doinks it off my ball.  I tell the guy close to the hole "i think mine was about 6 inches back and to the right", he agrees and I replace mine.  Guy in the back misses his par putt and says bogey....well no you have to add two shots for hitting my ball, he disagrees a ton and I simply tell him okay we'll ask when we finish (knowing darn well what the outcome was going to be).

 

Point being you can't let this stuff bother you, bring it up to a rules official and then move on.  Now if some kid is flat out refusing to mark his ball in your line or behind the hole....I don't know what you do... maybe mark it for him, though that might make it worse.

 

I know one thing, the better you play the less you have to worry about this stuff.👍

[_chris]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:29 AM, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

My son who just a few years was playing in tournaments was a TD this past year for a regional tour.

 

He told me what I had been telling him for years.  Some of the worse cheats are the parents.

 

At one tournament a parent would not leave the green or constantly talking to the child.  The other parents brought it to his attention.  The parent was warned several times.  He would leave the green when him or an intern would come back.  He was finally got at a distance  Son called the league and DQ'ed the child.

 

Its bad for the children but you ever want a bad apple ruining it for other players. 

 

I have seen or heard about cheating at each level with my son.  From HS and  Junior to College.

 

 

At state finals last year as a Jr high coach, I had to ask a parent to please stay off the course proper and refrain from coaching during the round. He said "Yeah bud, I've played on the PGA for 17 years, I think I know the rules" He was actually telling the truth, which really wasn't relevant to the moment. At that time he was acting like just another entitled parent. 

[leezer99]

Welp it happened today… saw a dad helping his son on the tee box prior to hitting a shot on a tour that absolutely does not allow parent involvement. (I’ve been told to stay 40 yards away from the kids while merely walking down the cart path) Dad had a pin sheet in his hand and was talking to his son while pointing at it. Worst part is that I really like the family. 
 

So question for the crowd: do you say something to the dad, the tournament director or just drop it?

[kiwigolf72]

definitely say something, maybe tournament director, that way you still maintain a cordial relationship with the other guy.

[leezer99]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:02 PM, leezer99 said:

Welp it happened today… saw a dad helping his son on the tee box prior to hitting a shot on a tour that absolutely does not allow parent involvement. (I’ve been told to stay 40 yards away from the kids while merely walking down the cart path) Dad had a pin sheet in his hand and was talking to his son while pointing at it. Worst part is that I really like the family. 
 

So question for the crowd: do you say something to the dad, the tournament director or just drop it?

 

Update: spoke to the tournament director about coaching your kid during the event and just asked what was usually done in cases like this. He simply said he would speak to the parent about it. I tried to get by without outing this person but the TD pressed me and was VERY surprised to hear who it was.

 

We all make mistakes from time to time and I'm not judging them but it's just really disappointing. In my heart of hearts I know what I saw taking place.  I honestly feel sorry for them getting wrapped up in the external pressures of junior golf.  Nobody can convince me at this point that this was an isolated incident. 

[ApostateDrive]

Reading through threads like these as a person with no kids is absolutely wild. It's all the drama of little league sports + the inherent haughtiness of golf.