Launching way too high

[Luckydutch]

I find I have to feel the club release a lot/early with driver specifically, in order to square the face. When I don't I hit a horrible push-slice straight out of bounds. However, a product of this is that I'm adding a load of dynamic loft at impact and typically have a launch angle between 17-20 degrees and my driver is set to 8! It's costing me a lot of distance for one thing but also, the miss when I don't release it enough is very bad. It's either straight down the fairway or out of bounds, there's no middle-ground.

 

I've tried not releasing it as much but then adding more rotation/getting open earlier but it has always been a disaster (last 2 videos for examples).

 

Any tips would be very much appreciated!

 

I am deliberately aiming right with the one below. The intent was to draw it round the corner but didn't close the face enough so it was more of a straight shot by accident.

 

These two below are attempts at squaring it more through rotation than release:

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10 by Luckydutch

[golf-RN]

What launch monitor are you using in videos 1,3, and 4? Big difference in the spin numbers from the Foresight in video #2 to whatever the other is. What does your ball flight look like outside? A face on video would be helpful

Edited August 20 by golf-RN

[Luckydutch]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:30 AM, golf-RN said:

What launch monitor are you using in videos 1,3, and 4? Big difference in the spin numbers from the Foresight in video #2 to whatever the other is. What does your ball flight look like outside? A face on video would be helpful

 

I think that was a flightscope although they've just replaced it with something newer this week. Ball flight outside is very consistent with what I see in the studio - very high. Rare good shots will be draws. Common miss is a massive push-slice (never a slight pull-slice, literally 100+ yards offline). Slightly less common but equally destructive miss is a dive-bomb hook.

 

Hard to get front-on views in the studio as the lighting isn't great and when the camera is really close the club head just ends up a complete blur, even at 240 frames.

 

I've got one here from the garden. It's without a ball so it doesn't show any compensations that I would be making with a normal swing but in a way that's helpful to see also.

 

I have a long-standing theory that my issue with driver, specifically, is that my low-point is around the middle of my lead-foot and so I tend to hit the ball with a descending blow with an open face UNLESS I do a flippy/early release which is where the mega high-launches and hooks can come from. 

 

I have a load of flaws that I can work on to improve my swing but one constant has been that I cannot consistently hit driver, ever. My 5 wood could be on-fire and finding fairways at 250 yards but then next hole I take driver and am 5 off the tee with 2 penalties. There's a very specific issue with driver which isn't just explained by it being the longest club in the bag.

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

I didn’t notice it at first, but watch your head in transition in all the videos. In the two straight shots you keep your eye on the ball more or less, but on the other two you turn your head noticeably off the ball towards the screen/target. These are two completely different moves. 

[Luckydutch]

On 8/24/2023 at 12:29 PM, Valtiel said:

I didn’t notice it at first, but watch your head in transition in all the videos. In the two straight shots you keep your eye on the ball more or less, but on the other two you turn your head noticeably off the ball towards the screen/target. These are two completely different moves. 

 

That's a great observation. I sometimes turn my spine towards the target too early rather than turning the body around the spine. Keeping my head more stable really helps with shallowing.

 

Even when I do that I'm still having the same issue of either releasing too late and hitting it mega-high with a push-fade or over-correcting and hooking it. These two sequences below are perfect examples. One left and then immediately one right.

 

https://imgur.com/a/HD3Cpa3

 

https://imgur.com/a/EJm1SaC

 

I actually have more success finding my target by literally aiming right, strengthening my grip and trying to draw it.

 

https://imgur.com/WvEova7

 

I try to feel like my logo on my glove rotates to face to target to square the face but I guess I either do it too early or too late?

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

 

That's a great observation. I sometimes turn my spine towards the target too early rather than turning the body around the spine. Keeping my head more stable really helps with shallowing.

 

Even when I do that I'm still having the same issue of either releasing too late and hitting it mega-high with a push-fade or over-correcting and hooking it. These two sequences below are perfect examples. One left and then immediately one right.

 

https://imgur.com/a/HD3Cpa3

 

https://imgur.com/a/EJm1SaC

 

I actually have more success finding my target by literally aiming right, strengthening my grip and trying to draw it.

 

https://imgur.com/WvEova7

 

I try to feel like my logo on my glove rotates to face to target to square the face but I guess I either do it too early or too late?

You're both rehearsing for and subsequently managing a very inside -> out path here, that is where the two way miss is coming from as you're having to time extra face closure to keep the ball from going right. Closing your stance and strengthening your grip is just giving you more bandaid potential for said management. I strongly dislike that rehearsal that you're going because it is encouraging these issues. The purpose of a rehearsal is to either reinforce something objectively neutral, or an exaggeration *away* from a strong tendency, also with the goal of hitting a neutral middle ground. You're too flat and inside creating the path issue, and your rehearsal is only encouraging more of that. In earlier videos you were far more neutral in this regard, but drifting away from neutral/balanced seems to be one of your tendencies that you need to keep an eye on. Ideally at this point you should be able to identify this, because it's very clear that you're very flat and inside + struggling with a two way miss which should be setting off alarm bells to reign that back in. 



This position in particular from the "draw driver" video is concerning because how many things are outside the realm of neutral. It looks like you're losing all your right wrist extension (fold back) which is sending the club way across the line. You also have a slight cup in your left wrist despite the fact that the driver face is completely shut, which says your left hand grip has gotten overly strong, which could be contributing to the inside/flat takeaway. 

On a couple positive notes though, your misses seems to be less extreme. All of them in the videos above where on the planet, and your overall tempo is much smoother and more measured e.g. you're not flailing at it nearly as much, which I would attribute the less severe misses to as well.  

[Luckydutch]

44 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

You're both rehearsing for and subsequently managing a very inside -> out path here, that is where the two way miss is coming from as you're having to time extra face closure to keep the ball from going right. Closing your stance and strengthening your grip is just giving you more bandaid potential for said management. I strongly dislike that rehearsal that you're going because it is encouraging these issues. The purpose of a rehearsal is to either reinforce something objectively neutral, or an exaggeration *away* from a strong tendency, also with the goal of hitting a neutral middle ground. You're too flat and inside creating the path issue, and your rehearsal is only encouraging more of that. In earlier videos you were far more neutral in this regard, but drifting away from neutral/balanced seems to be one of your tendencies that you need to keep an eye on. Ideally at this point you should be able to identify this, because it's very clear that you're very flat and inside + struggling with a two way miss which should be setting off alarm bells to reign that back in. 



This position in particular from the "draw driver" video is concerning because how many things are outside the realm of neutral. It looks like you're losing all your right wrist extension (fold back) which is sending the club way across the line. You also have a slight cup in your left wrist despite the fact that the driver face is completely shut, which says your left hand grip has gotten overly strong, which could be contributing to the inside/flat takeaway. 

On a couple positive notes though, your misses seems to be less extreme. All of them in the videos above where on the planet, and your overall tempo is much smoother and more measured e.g. you're not flailing at it nearly as much, which I would attribute the less severe misses to as well.  

 

Thank you, this is very helpful feedback.

 

I can see that I’m coming too flat and from the inside. I guess because I used to be OTT, I’ve now gone too far the other way.

 

My downswing feels (note: feel, not real)  are keeping my back to target and then feeling like my knuckles of my lead hand work down away from the ball sort of behind my right shoulder. This shallows it but I guess too much.

 

Should the knuckles/hands by moving horizontally a bit more out towards the ball then? I fear that would cause the logo of my glove to point up at the sky and me to have an open face.

 

I need a good feel for shallowing a bit but not too much without opening the face.

[Valtiel]

24 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

Thank you, this is very helpful feedback.

 

I can see that I’m coming too flat and from the inside. I guess because I used to be OTT, I’ve now gone too far the other way.

 

My downswing feels (note: feel, not real)  are keeping my back to target and then feeling like my knuckles of my lead hand work down away from the ball sort of behind my right shoulder. This shallows it but I guess too much.

 

Should the knuckles/hands by moving horizontally a bit more out towards the ball then? I fear that would cause the logo of my glove to point up at the sky and me to have an open face.

 

I need a good feel for shallowing a bit but not too much without opening the face.

Two main things to address these comments:

1) Sucking the club back inside as a reaction to being OTT is almost always a mistake, and you shouldn't ever consider the backswing as a direct predictor of your transition/downswing. There is a link, but there are half a dozen other more important links to focus on. You should strive for relative neutrality and/or balance in your takeaway, not some "I need to do this more extreme move to prevent the other extreme move" which you're doing now. This connects directly to...

2) Inside/outside and shallow/steep are NOT interchangeable which is a common trap you seem to keep falling in when describing what you think "shallow" is.



Not only is this not "shallowing too much", it's technically a bit steep combined with being very inside and somewhat "stuck". You've *never* gotten into too shallow of position in any video you've posted, you HAVE gotten very stuck in terms of hand position like above (slightly exaggerated by the camera position).



Shallow and steep are functions of where the shaft is pointed, *thats it*. Where your hands are is far less relevant, but "drop the hands behind you" often gets misused used as a shallowing move because people think "OTT = hands coming out towards the ball, therefore I need to drop them backwards" when in reality your hands coming out towards the ball is *fine* as long as the shaft plane doesn't steepen at the same time. Meronk above is one of the few people that has a touch of "over shallowing" as you can see, and he battles a two way miss sometimes (the shot above he flared to the right and short-sided himself).

The point of all this is to emphasize both why your rehearsal is problematic and what it's encouraging, which is hands inside and stuck behind you for a majority of the swing. You don't necessarily want to mimic the above moves or positions, just understand where you are in relation to their fundamentals which is noticeably stuck and slightly steep.

If you want a drill/feel, use the preset/Faldo style drill we've talked about before and HOLD those wrist angles as you swing up over your right shoulder (not behind it). Force yourself to align neutrally to your target and hit shots using those two. Do NOT start shifting your alignment to compensate for a miss, that miss is telling you what is wrong and changing your alignment is just accepting that you're going to play the miss instead of fixing it.

Also a small request for future posts....Imgur's video player sucks and makes screen grabbing/analyzing more difficult because it has no fine scrubbing or playback speed features. If you can, slow motion video embeds or Youtube links only.

[Luckydutch]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Two main things to address these comments:

1) Sucking the club back inside as a reaction to being OTT is almost always a mistake, and you shouldn't ever consider the backswing as a direct predictor of your transition/downswing. There is a link, but there are half a dozen other more important links to focus on. You should strive for relative neutrality and/or balance in your takeaway, not some "I need to do this more extreme move to prevent the other extreme move" which you're doing now. This connects directly to...

2) Inside/outside and shallow/steep are NOT interchangeable which is a common trap you seem to keep falling in when describing what you think "shallow" is.



Not only is this not "shallowing too much", it's technically a bit steep combined with being very inside and somewhat "stuck". You've *never* gotten into too shallow of position in any video you've posted, you HAVE gotten very stuck in terms of hand position like above (slightly exaggerated by the camera position).



Shallow and steep are functions of where the shaft is pointed, *thats it*. Where your hands are is far less relevant, but "drop the hands behind you" often gets misused used as a shallowing move because people think "OTT = hands coming out towards the ball, therefore I need to drop them backwards" when in reality your hands coming out towards the ball is *fine* as long as the shaft plane doesn't steepen at the same time. Meronk above is one of the few people that has a touch of "over shallowing" as you can see, and he battles a two way miss sometimes (the shot above he flared to the right and short-sided himself).

The point of all this is to emphasize both why your rehearsal is problematic and what it's encouraging, which is hands inside and stuck behind you for a majority of the swing. You don't necessarily want to mimic the above moves or positions, just understand where you are in relation to their fundamentals which is noticeably stuck and slightly steep.

If you want a drill/feel, use the preset/Faldo style drill we've talked about before and HOLD those wrist angles as you swing up over your right shoulder (not behind it). Force yourself to align neutrally to your target and hit shots using those two. Do NOT start shifting your alignment to compensate for a miss, that miss is telling you what is wrong and changing your alignment is just accepting that you're going to play the miss instead of fixing it.

Also a small request for future posts....Imgur's video player sucks and makes screen grabbing/analyzing more difficult because it has no fine scrubbing or playback speed features. If you can, slow motion video embeds or Youtube links only.

 

Thanks. That all makes sense and I’ll give it a go.

 

I’ve just uploaded the videos directly in the past but for some reason now the max upload size is 935 kB so I can’t upload a video.

 

EDIT: I really like that drill. Setting the wrist like that creates a kind of tension in my trail arm which feels weird at first but it stops my right arm from bending too much in the backswing - a bad habit I often fall into.

Edited September 9 by Luckydutch

[TheDeanAbides]

You’re in great hands with @Valtiel. As is so often the case, a better understanding of the why helps us to better understand and apply the how. 
 

Nearly all faults happen because we have a skewed comprehension of what we need to do to make a swing work, which leads us down a path of compensation on top of compensation. That’s how we get some of the incredibly funky moves golfers struggle with. 
 

When we get an understanding of how simple the basic moves are in a golf swing AHA! moments happen and it begins to make sense. 
 

You have some great stuff going on, and if you apply what @Valtiel has offered you’re going to neutralise your swing and be able to release it freely. 

[Luckydutch]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:22 AM, Valtiel said:

Two main things to address these comments:

1) Sucking the club back inside as a reaction to being OTT is almost always a mistake, and you shouldn't ever consider the backswing as a direct predictor of your transition/downswing. There is a link, but there are half a dozen other more important links to focus on. You should strive for relative neutrality and/or balance in your takeaway, not some "I need to do this more extreme move to prevent the other extreme move" which you're doing now. This connects directly to...

2) Inside/outside and shallow/steep are NOT interchangeable which is a common trap you seem to keep falling in when describing what you think "shallow" is.



Not only is this not "shallowing too much", it's technically a bit steep combined with being very inside and somewhat "stuck". You've *never* gotten into too shallow of position in any video you've posted, you HAVE gotten very stuck in terms of hand position like above (slightly exaggerated by the camera position).



Shallow and steep are functions of where the shaft is pointed, *thats it*. Where your hands are is far less relevant, but "drop the hands behind you" often gets misused used as a shallowing move because people think "OTT = hands coming out towards the ball, therefore I need to drop them backwards" when in reality your hands coming out towards the ball is *fine* as long as the shaft plane doesn't steepen at the same time. Meronk above is one of the few people that has a touch of "over shallowing" as you can see, and he battles a two way miss sometimes (the shot above he flared to the right and short-sided himself).

The point of all this is to emphasize both why your rehearsal is problematic and what it's encouraging, which is hands inside and stuck behind you for a majority of the swing. You don't necessarily want to mimic the above moves or positions, just understand where you are in relation to their fundamentals which is noticeably stuck and slightly steep.

If you want a drill/feel, use the preset/Faldo style drill we've talked about before and HOLD those wrist angles as you swing up over your right shoulder (not behind it). Force yourself to align neutrally to your target and hit shots using those two. Do NOT start shifting your alignment to compensate for a miss, that miss is telling you what is wrong and changing your alignment is just accepting that you're going to play the miss instead of fixing it.

Also a small request for future posts....Imgur's video player sucks and makes screen grabbing/analyzing more difficult because it has no fine scrubbing or playback speed features. If you can, slow motion video embeds or Youtube links only.

 

 

Tested this drill properly at the studio today and I really like it but did have a few issues.

 

I really like how it feels like it takes the wrists out of the equation. I don't feel like I have to time a release to square it, it was just more or less square automatically. Good shots were mostly nice little draws. Very happy with that.

 

Took me a few attempts with the driver to get used to it but then I found it quite reliable. I was getting very little side spin on the ball in either direction which is great!

 

With irons and wedges, I did feel like I was maybe a little steep on it at times (but not always) so hit a few straight-draws as well as push-draws but the consistency of face control gave me much tighter dispersion than I am used to. The main issue was that I randomly started shanking it. I shanked the same par 3 tee shot 3 times in a row. Ended-up just moving a little bit further away from the ball to counteract it.

 

Driver: 

 

 

 

Shanked PW: 

 

 

 

Draw PW when setting-up slightly further away: 
 

 

Edited September 11 by Luckydutch

[slytown]

In all of these threads/posts you've made, you've tried a lot of different things that haven't really helped. I think you need to get away from fixes, positions, and set ups and just focus on what a golf swing is. You need a concept instead of a bunch of instruction.

 

I think these two videos are helpful. I would want you to think of the golf swing as a throw. Now, don't think about moving certain body parts, or checking where you are at P-whatever. Just throw the club behind you over your right shoulder, as far as you can, and then throw the club underhand. This concept will get you to feel the arms working around your body and feel the weight of the club as it sets in the backswing and release in the downswing.

 

Again, don't try AT ALL to hit a position. All you are doing is swing around your body with a throwing action.

 

 

For the downswing, again, your are throwing the club, like you would an underhand ball throw or a forehand in tennis. Don't stop your motion at P6 or any other position. Just throw it at a reasonable speed. You could start with a ball and move to a club.

 

 

I don't mean to overtake this thread. You've gotten many good tips, but I think you are the kind of player who may respond to concepts instead of technical drills or positions. THROW IT!

[D0ch0l1d4y]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:57 AM, Luckydutch said:

 

I think that was a flightscope although they've just replaced it with something newer this week. Ball flight outside is very consistent with what I see in the studio - very high. Rare good shots will be draws. Common miss is a massive push-slice (never a slight pull-slice, literally 100+ yards offline). Slightly less common but equally destructive miss is a dive-bomb hook.

 

Hard to get front-on views in the studio as the lighting isn't great and when the camera is really close the club head just ends up a complete blur, even at 240 frames.

 

I've got one here from the garden. It's without a ball so it doesn't show any compensations that I would be making with a normal swing but in a way that's helpful to see also.

 

I have a long-standing theory that my issue with driver, specifically, is that my low-point is around the middle of my lead-foot and so I tend to hit the ball with a descending blow with an open face UNLESS I do a flippy/early release which is where the mega high-launches and hooks can come from. 

 

I have a load of flaws that I can work on to improve my swing but one constant has been that I cannot consistently hit driver, ever. My 5 wood could be on-fire and finding fairways at 250 yards but then next hole I take driver and am 5 off the tee with 2 penalties. There's a very specific issue with driver which isn't just explained by it being the longest club in the bag.

 

 

 

 

I'm no @Valtiel, but I recognize a couple things that I was fighting in my own swing - with similar results as yours.

You look extremely wide here. And you have a very strong left hand and a neutral/weak right hand.

 

 

...and a lot of lateral movement.

 

Ball position too far back might be an issue with irons (another issue I had) - just difficult to tell from DTL view:

 

 

Some of the recommendation in my thread may be applicable to you, but as always with internet comments - take with a boulder of salt 😄 

[Luckydutch]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:06 PM, slytown said:

In all of these threads/posts you've made, you've tried a lot of different things that haven't really helped. I think you need to get away from fixes, positions, and set ups and just focus on what a golf swing is. You need a concept instead of a bunch of instruction.

 

I think these two videos are helpful. I would want you to think of the golf swing as a throw. Now, don't think about moving certain body parts, or checking where you are at P-whatever. Just throw the club behind you over your right shoulder, as far as you can, and then throw the club underhand. This concept will get you to feel the arms working around your body and feel the weight of the club as it sets in the backswing and release in the downswing.

 

Again, don't try AT ALL to hit a position. All you are doing is swing around your body with a throwing action.

 

 

For the downswing, again, your are throwing the club, like you would an underhand ball throw or a forehand in tennis. Don't stop your motion at P6 or any other position. Just throw it at a reasonable speed. You could start with a ball and move to a club.

 

 

I don't mean to overtake this thread. You've gotten many good tips, but I think you are the kind of player who may respond to concepts instead of technical drills or positions. THROW IT!

 

 

I like that drill, thank you.

 

I feel my OTT comes more from the hips and body pulling the club out in front of me, rather than the right shoulder staying high or going over the top. I can see in videos my right shoulder dropping a lot but still the club pitches over the plane line. Good example of this in the next comment.

[Luckydutch]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:22 AM, Valtiel said:

Shallow and steep are functions of where the shaft is pointed, *thats it*. Where your hands are is far less relevant, but "drop the hands behind you" often gets misused used as a shallowing move because people think "OTT = hands coming out towards the ball, therefore I need to drop them backwards" when in reality your hands coming out towards the ball is *fine* as long as the shaft plane doesn't steepen at the same time. Meronk above is one of the few people that has a touch of "over shallowing" as you can see, and he battles a two way miss sometimes (the shot above he flared to the right and short-sided himself).

 

 

Having a really torrid time trying to make sense of/execute the advice in this section of your comment.

 

I've tried to make swings where the backswing is a bit steeper and more over my shoulder than around it but the result is I just go massively OTT. I presume that getting deep and stuck was my bandaid to avoid going OTT so when you remove that, that's what happens.

 

Here's an example from the course today. 8 iron. Big slice. Landed a good 40 yards right of target.

 

 

 

I spent some time in the nets afterwards trying to work on this and find a feel that would allow me to swing on-plane whilst still having that steeper backswing and not getting stuck.

 

A few ideas that I tried in order of effectiveness:

• Think about throwing the club right of the target line - produced the most on-plane swing but I often find this swing produces push-fades that start right but drift further right
• Trying to focus on the club head rather than the handle and feel the club head drop down behind me rather than coming out towards the ball
• Try to pull the club down by the shaft rather than by the butt of the club so it lies down flatter
• Exaggerated steep backswing
• Tiger woods left hip back range drill - complete disaster

Here are the videos in that same order:

 

 

 

As I said in response to another commenter, I don't feel like I'm getting OTT with the shoulders, I feel like my rotation to the left is just pulling me OTT and it takes a herculean effort to drop the club quickly enough to stay on plane before it's dragged out over the ball.

 

Do you see anything that can be helpful? I was playing much better with the stuck swing but I want to commit to the change and stick with it. I just probably need to make some other changes now to compliment it.

[TheDeanAbides]

22 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

Having a really torrid time trying to make sense of/execute the advice in this section of your comment.

 

I've tried to make swings where the backswing is a bit steeper and more over my shoulder than around it but the result is I just go massively OTT. I presume that getting deep and stuck was my bandaid to avoid going OTT so when you remove that, that's what happens.

 

Here's an example from the course today. 8 iron. Big slice. Landed a good 40 yards right of target.

 

 

 

I spent some time in the nets afterwards trying to work on this and find a feel that would allow me to swing on-plane whilst still having that steeper backswing and not getting stuck.

 

A few ideas that I tried in order of effectiveness:

• Think about throwing the club right of the target line - produced the most on-plane swing but I often find this swing produces push-fades that start right but drift further right
• Trying to focus on the club head rather than the handle and feel the club head drop down behind me rather than coming out towards the ball
• Try to pull the club down by the shaft rather than by the butt of the club so it lies down flatter
• Exaggerated steep backswing
• Tiger woods left hip back range drill - complete disaster

Here are the videos in that same order:

 

 

 

As I said in response to another commenter, I don't feel like I'm getting OTT with the shoulders, I feel like my rotation to the left is just pulling me OTT and it takes a herculean effort to drop the club quickly enough to stay on plane before it's dragged out over the ball.

 

Do you see anything that can be helpful? I was playing much better with the stuck swing but I want to commit to the change and stick with it. I just probably need to make some other changes now to compliment it.

I’m not going to comment on what Valtiel is working on with you because I agree completely with him. I will, however, say that any real change is almost guaranteed to lead to bad shots until it’s integrated - especially on the course. When making a change the only thing that matters is that you make the actual change - where the ball goes is completely irrelevant. I don’t think you can chase the ball and fix an issue. 

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I’m not going to comment on what Valtiel is working on with you because I agree completely with him. I will, however, say that any real change is almost guaranteed to lead to bad shots until it’s integrated - especially on the course. When making a change the only thing that matters is that you make the actual change - where the ball goes is completely irrelevant. I don’t think you can chase the ball and fix an issue. 

Agreed. That’s why I stuck with it even though it wasn’t working particularly well on the course. I just clearly need to change something else as well to compliment the change.

 

I feel like something is off with the way I turn. I see countless people on Reddit throwing it OTT with their shoulders but I never see people like me where they’re dropping the right side but still throwing the club over plane. It’s almost like I’m spinning on too much of a horizontal axis but when I’ve tried to add more tilts in the past, it has always been a disaster.

[Valtiel]

35 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

Agreed. That’s why I stuck with it even though it wasn’t working particularly well on the course. I just clearly need to change something else as well to compliment the change.

 

I feel like something is off with the way I turn. I see countless people on Reddit throwing it OTT with their shoulders but I never see people like me where they’re dropping the right side but still throwing the club over plane. It’s almost like I’m spinning on too much of a horizontal axis but when I’ve tried to add more tilts in the past, it has always been a disaster.

Feel free to disregard this if i'm misunderstanding something here, but you keep harping on OTT when it is not been relevant in ANY of your swings.



Nothing about this is "over the top" of anything, the clubface is just open at P6 and your rotation stalled because you have, like ALL the other swings you also posted earlier as well, woefully late weight shift into your front side. You're stuck on your back foot in all of them which is why you're hitting the ball so high and flaring it out to the right. This one being the worst offender (and subsequent result):



Your legs are in two different time zones here for the same reason, you aren't shifting into your front side *nearly* early enough and you're trying to open your left side without weight on it which shows a fundamental misunderstanding of something I *tried* to harp on last year when I said "you need to go off and practice short swing drills with emphasis on proper weight shift and getting your lead side working". This will never work no matter what upper body feel or approach you try to take. All of these swings are sharp regressions in terms of lower body sequencing compared to this thread from earlier this year.

 

There are two elements that you consistently regress on whenever you start mucking around with other things; the aforementioned proper shift/pivot and where you set the club at the top of the swing:



In the order presented in the video these are your backswing positions, ALL different. 1 and 2 are similar versions of an overrunning, beyond parallel overswing, both bad. #3 is actually my favorite and looks like the best contact as well. You might not need to be that laid off, but I still like it. #4 is a less severe version of 1 and 2, still too long of a swing. #5 never got fully set and you made that really bad lower body move noted above, but the actual position is still ok, I just prefer #3.

If you stick to the type of backswing you made in #3 and arrive at a similar position at the top (slightly less laid off would be good to) AND commit to a properly sequenced weight shift, you will improve incrementally. If you keep messing with superficial downswing feels you will keep ping ponging around. All of those feels that you listed above btw are NOT what you should be focused on and if I was your in-person instructor I would hit you with a rolled up newspaper if you came to me saying ANY of those with your current absence of lower body fundamentals. Your erratic results are a reflection of your continual erratic approach where you completely lose core fundamentals and start focusing on pointless aesthetic things like "laying the club down", which if you *actually* achieved would result in the worst shanks you've ever experienced because not a single "shallowing" move will EVER work if you're stuck on your back leg snd not shifting properly like you are now.  Shallowing in any form is a fairly natural product of getting these elements right, never something you manufacture.

[Luckydutch]

10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Feel free to disregard this if i'm misunderstanding something here, but you keep harping on OTT when it is not been relevant in ANY of your swings.



Nothing about this is "over the top" of anything, the clubface is just open at P6 and your rotation stalled because you have, like ALL the other swings you also posted earlier as well, woefully late weight shift into your front side. You're stuck on your back foot in all of them which is why you're hitting the ball so high and flaring it out to the right. This one being the worst offender (and subsequent result):



Your legs are in two different time zones here for the same reason, you aren't shifting into your front side *nearly* early enough and you're trying to open your left side without weight on it which shows a fundamental misunderstanding of something I *tried* to harp on last year when I said "you need to go off and practice short swing drills with emphasis on proper weight shift and getting your lead side working". This will never work no matter what upper body feel or approach you try to take. All of these swings are sharp regressions in terms of lower body sequencing compared to this thread from earlier this year.

 

There are two elements that you consistently regress on whenever you start mucking around with other things; the aforementioned proper shift/pivot and where you set the club at the top of the swing:



In the order presented in the video these are your backswing positions, ALL different. 1 and 2 are similar versions of an overrunning, beyond parallel overswing, both bad. #3 is actually my favorite and looks like the best contact as well. You might not need to be that laid off, but I still like it. #4 is a less severe version of 1 and 2, still too long of a swing. #5 never got fully set and you made that really bad lower body move noted above, but the actual position is still ok, I just prefer #3.

If you stick to the type of backswing you made in #3 and arrive at a similar position at the top (slightly less laid off would be good to) AND commit to a properly sequenced weight shift, you will improve incrementally. If you keep messing with superficial downswing feels you will keep ping ponging around. All of those feels that you listed above btw are NOT what you should be focused on and if I was your in-person instructor I would hit you with a rolled up newspaper if you came to me saying ANY of those with your current absence of lower body fundamentals. Your erratic results are a reflection of your continual erratic approach where you completely lose core fundamentals and start focusing on pointless aesthetic things like "laying the club down", which if you *actually* achieved would result in the worst shanks you've ever experienced because not a single "shallowing" move will EVER work if you're stuck on your back leg snd not shifting properly like you are now.  Shallowing in any form is a fairly natural product of getting these elements right, never something you manufacture.

 

Drat, you are right that I've taken my eye off the ball with the weight shift. I drilled that for so many months but I guess it didn't stick. It never felt natural to shift forwards because you don't want to shift off the ball in the backswing. It's like the backswing is a very static, controlled movement and then suddenly 2/3rds through the backswing you're supposed to start a dynamic movement the other way. I'll try to consciously work it back into the swing now. It shouldn't be too hard as I must have done about 10,000 reps of it earlier in the year.

 

On the matter of fundamentals, though. It strikes me that THE fundamental should be the correct concept/feel to get the hands (which control the face) to work down in such a way that the club head is delivered to the ball on a neutral-ish path with a square face. It's like with boxing, there are a lot of power and efficiency gains to be made from learning how to use your weight properly but ultimately, if you don't extend your arm, you're not going to punch the bag - you're going to chest bump it. 

 

I've never been able to get the right feel going for getting the hands and club down without a) getting steep or b) opening the face or c) the hands lagging behind the body and having to do a bit flip to rescue it. If I pull on the handle I'm steep. If I don't pull on the handle and try to make shallowing moves, the hands get left behind at p6. Pretty much no matter what I do, the face is wide-open.

 

I hear you about the importance of these other pieces but I don't think I can actually improve sustainably until I have the correct concept/task for my hands and arms to actually deliver the cub.

 

I know you don't like commenting on swings without a ball but just to illustrate my point, see how in this example I do a a pressure shift, I do that thing where you turn the heart down towards the left foot and then rotate back and out the way to sling the club. It ticks a few boxes in terms of pressure shift and the arms staying connected and not getting left behind but the face is like 30 degrees open through the impact zone because the face-squaring that I would normally get from straightening my right arm isn't there.

 

I'm stuck in this loop of trying to work on advanced concepts when I don't have the right basic concept of how to get club head to ball.

 

 

Do you have a feel or task that has worked for other students for what the correct movement with the hands or arms are?

 

Bonus question if I may? What is the difference between backswing 1 and 3 above such that you said you preferred 3? My intent was to do an absolutely identical backswing between the two. The only difference being in the transition I started to lay the club down a bit in swing 3, hence the slightly more layed-off look at the very start of the downswing. I do agree that all of the above are slight overswings and that is noted. Just curious to understand what I did better in 3 than 1 as they were supposed to be the same.

Edited September 15 by Luckydutch

[TheDeanAbides]

I really want to intervene, but this is one of the few threads that’s on track with someone knowledgeable helping you, dude, so I’m gonna keep out of it. 
 

What I will say is that I feel your pain, and the thing that’s going to help you the most is to RELAX. These are all pieces of a fun puzzle for a game we play. You have great foundations, and you’re not far away from a very good swing. Try not to take it too seriously. 

[Luckydutch]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I really want to intervene, but this is one of the few threads that’s on track with someone knowledgeable helping you, dude, so I’m gonna keep out of it. 
 

What I will say is that I feel your pain, and the thing that’s going to help you the most is to RELAX. These are all pieces of a fun puzzle for a game we play. You have great foundations, and you’re not far away from a very good swing. Try not to take it too seriously. 

 

What makes it so frustrating is how destructive my misses are. My friends put-in half the effort I do into improving but they are all lower handicaps because their miss is just to duff it 100 yards down the fairway or hit a bit of a slice that ends-up in the side rough. My miss sends it into a different postcode! All the effort is paying-off in short-game and I'm easily the best in my ground inside of 100 yards but I'm still taking 5+ penalties per round. 

 

I'm convinced there's a critical piece of the puzzle missing. 

 

I can't square the face because the club doesn't get low enough, early enough so that I'm able to turn onto the ball through impact and square it, I have to dump the club head down (and open) to try to hit the ball.

 

I can't drop the club faster because I have always found the act of lowering the hands and the club to be a steepener.

 

I'm being told by people way more experienced than me that I need to get the hands higher and less deep so that I don't get stuck but this gives me even less time to drop the club and gets me even steeper.

 

When I play a flatter, deeper backswing, I feel more comfortable squaring the face because the hands start lower to the ground so I don't have to yank them down so aggressively.

 

The hands are low and deep so it's easy for me to drop them down to my side

 

 

And then that position gives me license to turn onto the ball with my hips, body but also to now tip the club out with my arms which closes the face

 

 

The problem is, I get told that I'm too deep and behind my shoulder and that makes me stuck but I cannot get into those second two positions if I start the downswing from a higher, less deep position. I'll get steep and then I'll either open the face when trying to force an inside path or I'll allow the club to work massively out-to-in.

 

Clearly, I am am missing something because other people can shallow the club from a high top of backswing position. I don't think I'll ever improve properly until I learn what that is.

[GoGoErky]

49 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

What makes it so frustrating is how destructive my misses are. My friends put-in half the effort I do into improving but they are all lower handicaps because their miss is just to duff it 100 yards down the fairway or hit a bit of a slice that ends-up in the side rough. My miss sends it into a different postcode! All the effort is paying-off in short-game and I'm easily the best in my ground inside of 100 yards but I'm still taking 5+ penalties per round. 

 

I'm convinced there's a critical piece of the puzzle missing. 

 

I can't square the face because the club doesn't get low enough, early enough so that I'm able to turn onto the ball through impact and square it, I have to dump the club head down (and open) to try to hit the ball.

 

I can't drop the club faster because I have always found the act of lowering the hands and the club to be a steepener.

 

I'm being told by people way more experienced than me that I need to get the hands higher and less deep so that I don't get stuck but this gives me even less time to drop the club and gets me even steeper.

 

When I play a flatter, deeper backswing, I feel more comfortable squaring the face because the hands start lower to the ground so I don't have to yank them down so aggressively.

 

The hands are low and deep so it's easy for me to drop them down to my side

 

 

And then that position gives me license to turn onto the ball with my hips, body but also to now tip the club out with my arms which closes the face

 

 

The problem is, I get told that I'm too deep and behind my shoulder and that makes me stuck but I cannot get into those second two positions if I start the downswing from a higher, less deep position. I'll get steep and then I'll either open the face when trying to force an inside path or I'll allow the club to work massively out-to-in.

 

Clearly, I am am missing something because other people can shallow the club from a high top of backswing position. I don't think I'll ever improve properly until I learn what that is.

Until you get the proper pressure shifts down you are going to face these issues. This is what @Valtielhas been pointing out.

 

it might be beneficial to go see an instructor in person at this point somce

trying it on your own and with solid advice from a few members here isn’t working 

[TheDeanAbides]

54 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

What makes it so frustrating is how destructive my misses are. My friends put-in half the effort I do into improving but they are all lower handicaps because their miss is just to duff it 100 yards down the fairway or hit a bit of a slice that ends-up in the side rough. My miss sends it into a different postcode! All the effort is paying-off in short-game and I'm easily the best in my ground inside of 100 yards but I'm still taking 5+ penalties per round. 

 

I'm convinced there's a critical piece of the puzzle missing. 

 

I can't square the face because the club doesn't get low enough, early enough so that I'm able to turn onto the ball through impact and square it, I have to dump the club head down (and open) to try to hit the ball.

 

I can't drop the club faster because I have always found the act of lowering the hands and the club to be a steepener.

 

I'm being told by people way more experienced than me that I need to get the hands higher and less deep so that I don't get stuck but this gives me even less time to drop the club and gets me even steeper.

 

When I play a flatter, deeper backswing, I feel more comfortable squaring the face because the hands start lower to the ground so I don't have to yank them down so aggressively.

 

The hands are low and deep so it's easy for me to drop them down to my side

 

 

And then that position gives me license to turn onto the ball with my hips, body but also to now tip the club out with my arms which closes the face

 

 

The problem is, I get told that I'm too deep and behind my shoulder and that makes me stuck but I cannot get into those second two positions if I start the downswing from a higher, less deep position. I'll get steep and then I'll either open the face when trying to force an inside path or I'll allow the club to work massively out-to-in.

 

Clearly, I am am missing something because other people can shallow the club from a high top of backswing position. I don't think I'll ever improve properly until I learn what that is.

This might be boring, but the thing that gives you time to shallow correctly is proper sequencing, which is essentially what @Valtiel is helping you to achieve. 
 

The difference between most players and good players is the transition and understanding of it. A really good player feels like the transition takes forever even though they’re generating loads of speed. 
 

You want to bypass the uncomfortable feeling of getting your arms active, but until you understand that they need to actively get off your chest in transition to create room you’ll struggle and go back to your old pattern. 
 

It’s been measured that tour player’s start to straighten their right arm in transition much quicker that average players. Think about that.

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

This might be boring, but the thing that gives you time to shallow correctly is proper sequencing, which is essentially what @Valtiel is helping you to achieve. 
 

The difference between most players and good players is the transition and understanding of it. A really good player feels like the transition takes forever even though they’re generating loads of speed. 
 

You want to bypass the uncomfortable feeling of getting your arms active, but until you understand that they need to actively get off your chest in transition to create room you’ll struggle and go back to your old pattern. 
 

It’s been measured that tour player’s start to straighten their right arm in transition much quicker that average players. Think about that.

 

I 100% get the importance on that and have spent a lot of time working on sequencing in the past. Whilst it improved my swing and made me feel like I had better tempo, I still had the exact same problems with push-slicing or pulling every shot.

 

I think I’m getting great advice here and that’s why I come back but there has to be something else missing.
 

Either in how I rotate or in how I drop the arms or both. The hands have to come down because you pick them up (and I’m being asked to pick them up MORE to avoid getting stuck) and they’re not going to go from all the way above my head to impact position just with a well-timed pressure shift. I need to understand what the right concept is to get that to happen quickly enough such that they’re in a low position at p6 with the club head still behind them so I can then turn confidently onto the ball the square it up.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, straightening how exactly? Sometimes when I straighten the right arm it pushes the hands away from the body and gives me a wide, casting-like arc to the swing which usually means stalled rotation and lots of wrist unhinging to catch them up to the ball.

By contrast, when I look at pros, they look quite narrow on the downswing with the right side tucking into the ribs somewhat. Narrow for me would mean pulling the handle and a steep shaft, however.

[GoGoErky]

12 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

Either in how I rotate or in how I drop the arms or both. The hands have to come down because you pick them up (and I’m being asked to pick them up MORE to avoid getting stuck) and they’re not going to go from all the way above my head to impact position just with a well-timed pressure shift. I need to understand what the right concept is to get that to happen quickly enough such that they’re in a low position at p6 with the club head still behind them so I can then turn confidently onto the ball the square it up.

It’s tied into getting proper pressure shift to the trail side in the takeaway where it’s finished by p2 and then to the lead side between p3 and p4. This will allow for better/proper rotation and give the arms a chance to come off the chest and drop.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CufGXx0L598/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgC4DBYjxTV/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[TheDeanAbides]

27 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

I 100% get the importance on that and have spent a lot of time working on sequencing in the past. Whilst it improved my swing and made me feel like I had better tempo, I still had the exact same problems with push-slicing or pulling every shot.

 

I think I’m getting great advice here and that’s why I come back but there has to be something else missing.
 

Either in how I rotate or in how I drop the arms or both. The hands have to come down because you pick them up (and I’m being asked to pick them up MORE to avoid getting stuck) and they’re not going to go from all the way above my head to impact position just with a well-timed pressure shift. I need to understand what the right concept is to get that to happen quickly enough such that they’re in a low position at p6 with the club head still behind them so I can then turn confidently onto the ball the square it up.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, straightening how exactly? Sometimes when I straighten the right arm it pushes the hands away from the body and gives me a wide, casting-like arc to the swing which usually means stalled rotation and lots of wrist unhinging to catch them up to the ball.

By contrast, when I look at pros, they look quite narrow on the downswing with the right side tucking into the ribs somewhat. Narrow for me would mean pulling the handle and a steep shaft, however.

This dispels the myth that the swing is wide to narrow. 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

Also this, which illustrates that point in Monte’s simple way.

 

 

[Luckydutch]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Also this, which illustrates that point in Monte’s simple way.

 

 

 

 

I quite like this explanation but I think it's the "dump" bit that I struggle to do properly.

 

The "dump" for me always ends up being a handle pull that massively steepens the shaft. I really struggle to lower the club in a direction that is perpendicular to the shaft angle as he does here. 

 

Take this example below. I did the steep backswing and made sure the trail elbow stays in front of my chest so I won't get stuck. Then I really exaggerate the shift and slow transition so I'm way into my downswing before I even start to fire the arms. Still steep I don't have enough depth by half way through the downswing to create time to square it and the face is open through the impact zone. Absolute classic for me. I see this 100 times a week in my practice sessions.

 

 

Edited September 15 by Luckydutch

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

I quite like this explanation but I think it's the "dump" bit that I struggle to do properly.

 

The "dump" for me always ends up being a handle pull that massively steepens the shaft. I really struggle to lower the club in a direction that is perpendicular to the shaft angle as he does here. 

 

Take this example below. I did the steep backswing and made sure the trail elbow stays in front of my chest so I won't get stuck. Then I really exaggerate the shift and slow transition so I'm way into my downswing before I even start to fire the arms. Still steep I don't have enough depth by half way through the downswing to create time to square it and the face is open through the impact zone. Absolute classic for me. I see this 100 times a week in my practice sessions.

 

 

 

You need the NTC video series to understand the “dump” part. Wrist conditions will be the “aha!” moment.

[Luckydutch]

39 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You need the NTC video series to understand the “dump” part. Wrist conditions will be the “aha!” moment.

The no-turn bit makes a lot of sense, especially as a chronic over-swinger.

 

The cast bit is harder to get my head around. I’ll try it, though.

 

Can you point me to anything that shows what the correct unleashing of the wrists movement is?

 

What feels natural is a lot of deviation, releasing the right hand over the left one. Much like casting a fishing rod. I find this throws the club out ahead of the hands too early in the downswing, though.

 

With my short game, I actually try to feel that the right hand releases under the left hand as this presents the bounce and adds loft. In this way I chip higher and softer with my PW than my mates do with their LWs! It also opens the face, though and the presenting of the bounce is effectively the inverse of shaft lean, right? Can’t imagine that’s good for long-game.