Could a Men's Club Champion Beat Charley Hull?

[JohnnyCashForever]

Catalyst for topic:  

 

Charley Hull challenges man behind ‘sexist’ DM to round of golf, trash talk begins early | This is the Loop | GolfDigest.com

 

In the spirit of silly season topics, the subject line is the question.

 

Conditions:

 

1. The men's club champion must be an amateur from a US Open quality course (eg, Oakmont, Shinnecock, etc.).

2. Per Ms. Hull's tweet, she gets to play the white tees, and the CC plays from the red tees.

3. Course must be at least 6,000 yards long from the white tees. 

 

At the risk of being chauvinistic, I don't think it would be close.  The CC would win going away.  I know I'm probably wrong, but I think the different tees would be a deciding factor.

 

Anyway, some promoter should get this match on TV.  It could be the BJK vs Bobby Riggs event for the 21st century.

[Denny100]

Put it this way, if the Oakmont club champion DIDNT win, course ratings and handicapping are shown to be bogus without any shadow of doubt.

 

The only reason he wouldnt win in this scenario is if he was uncomfortable in front of a pro and cameras.

[ApostateDrive]

I believe I heard someone say that it should be a series called "Pro vs Bro"

[iutodd]

You guys are crazy.  Charley Hull would kick every Club Champions a** from here to Sunday.

 

Charley Hull hits 68% of her fairways, 68% of her greens, and averages 29 putts a round.  Her scoring average is 70.44.

 

Scratch golfers/Club Champions average score is like 73-75?  And that's on a course they play a lot with zero pressure.  Add in pressure and add in an unfamiliar course....it wouldn't be close.  Charley Hull shot 66 on Sunday at the US Women's Open at Pebble Beach.  A scratch golfer can't shoot 66 on a Wednesday at their home course with easy pins.

 

The original statement was from a THREE HANDICAP who hits it 290 that thought they would finish top 20 in every LPGA event.  Which is absolutely absurd.  That player would shoot 90 in an LPGA Tournament setting.

 

LPGA Pros are incredibly good.  Just ridiculously ludicrously good.  I would maybe wager that the top top top Mens' Ams - like if Stew Hagestad and Charley Hull played a match it would be fairly interesting.  Anyone else and it wouldn't be close.

[coreyhr]

Yay, this topic yet again. 

[ApostateDrive]

23 minutes ago, iutodd said:

You guys are crazy.  Charley Hull would kick every Club Champions a** from here to Sunday.

 

Charley Hull hits 68% of her fairways, 68% of her greens, and averages 29 putts a round.  Her scoring average is 70.44.

 

Scratch golfers/Club Champions average score is like 73-75?  And that's on a course they play a lot with zero pressure.  Add in pressure and add in an unfamiliar course....it wouldn't be close.  Charley Hull shot 66 on Sunday at the US Women's Open at Pebble Beach.  A scratch golfer can't shoot 66 on a Wednesday at their home course with easy pins.

 

The original statement was from a THREE HANDICAP who hits it 290 that thought they would finish top 20 in every LPGA event.  Which is absolutely absurd.  That player would shoot 90 in an LPGA Tournament setting.

 

LPGA Pros are incredibly good.  Just ridiculously ludicrously good.  I would maybe wager that the top top top Mens' Ams - like if Stew Hagestad and Charley Hull played a match it would be fairly interesting.  Anyone else and it wouldn't be close.

 

I tend to agree with this sentiment. I'd be very surprised if Club Champions were even competitive.

[Cellis]

Charley Hull would be charged with assault with what she would do to Club Champions.

[Denny100]

27 minutes ago, iutodd said:

You guys are crazy.  Charley Hull would kick every Club Champions a** from here to Sunday.

 

Charley Hull hits 68% of her fairways, 68% of her greens, and averages 29 putts a round.  Her scoring average is 70.44.

 

Scratch golfers/Club Champions average score is like 73-75?  And that's on a course they play a lot with zero pressure.  Add in pressure and add in an unfamiliar course....it wouldn't be close.  Charley Hull shot 66 on Sunday at the US Women's Open at Pebble Beach.  A scratch golfer can't shoot 66 on a Wednesday at their home course with easy pins.

 

The original statement was from a THREE HANDICAP who hits it 290 that thought they would finish top 20 in every LPGA event.  Which is absolutely absurd.  That player would shoot 90 in an LPGA Tournament setting.

 

LPGA Pros are incredibly good.  Just ridiculously ludicrously good.  I would maybe wager that the top top top Mens' Ams - like if Stew Hagestad and Charley Hull played a match it would be fairly interesting.  Anyone else and it wouldn't be close.

 

Are club champions of lower standard in the US?

 

Numerous clubs here have two round winning scores in club championships of -5 or -6, ive seen a double digit club champions score one year at one course.

 

I dont know what length pebble beach was playing but it wouldnt have been 6,900 yards because i dont think its 6900 yards even for male pros of the back tees? and the pins wouldnt be nearly as tucked or rough nearly as deep as if it were the male equivalent event.

 

Plus, the club champion theoretically would be playing a course 600-700 yards shorter than the one played by the LPGA tour player, who he is already a lot longer than.

 

"LPGA" pros as a blanket statement is a bit over the top. SOME LPGA pros are incredibly good, some arent.

 

If handicapping truly works, id expect a theoretical close match because id expect a club like Oakmont doesnt have players as bad as scratch handicappers that win their club champonship. Im thinking Oakmont must have +4s and +5s there, which should be able to beat Charley Hull off a forward tee.

 

[Soloman1]

22 minutes ago, iutodd said:

The original statement was from a THREE HANDICAP who hits it 290 that thought they would finish top 20 in every LPGA event.  Which is absolutely absurd.  That player would shoot 90 in an LPGA Tournament setting.

 

Not going to shoot 90, but would certainly be embarrassed.

 

Average length of an LPGA tour course is about 6,400 yards and she’s used to that length. She just took the driver out of his hands on many holes.

 

The throw line in darts is 7’-9.25”. Put a dart player at 6 feet and they can’t hit a thing.

[double_d]

Neal Shipley, who just finished runner-up in the US Amateur could, he's a +6.4 or something and was club champion a year or two ago? At the club he belongs to his hometown of PGH.

 

Your typical club champion though, probably not. I'd bet on her most of the time.

[double_d]

43 minutes ago, iutodd said:

You guys are crazy.  Charley Hull would kick every Club Champions a** from here to Sunday.

 

 Pretty sure Neal Shipley runner up to US Am this year, +6.2 or 6.4 or something was club champ at his parents/ his CC here in PGH a year or two ago.

 

You don't think he could beat her?

 

I'm thinking 95% of club champs couldn't though.

 

Edited September 22 by double_d

[Denny100]

Just now, double_d said:

 Pretty sure Neal Shipley runner up to US Am, +6.2 0r 6.4 or something was club champ at his parents/ his CC here in PGH a year or two ago.

 

This would be the kind of example I mean.

 

A scratch would be beaten heavily.

 

Someone who is +6.2, and then moved up a few tees, all things being equal i think he would win.

[double_d]

2 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

 

This would be the kind of example I mean.

 

A scratch would be beaten heavily.

 

Someone who is +6.2, and then moved up a few tees, all things being equal i think he would win.

I would think the biggest factor besides a difference in ability would be the CC champ folding in front of the crowd and cameras. Someone like Shipley wouldn't have that problem obviously.

 

 

[Soloman1]

I think I just found the guy.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12547603/Full-hulk-topless-golfer-arrested-TWICE-summer-menacing-behavior-outside-home-including-one-incident-threatened-neighbor-wearing-underwear.html

 

 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

7 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Average length of an LPGA tour course is about 6,400 yards and she’s used to that length. She just took the driver out of his hands on many holes.

It would depend on the course, naturally, but wouldn't that mean a lot of holes would now become drivable?  Or if not drivable, short enough to where the approach is a chip or short pitch?

 

Charley would annihilate the original Stagner poster---LPGA pros' accuracy and wedge game are otherworldly---but I'd think the Oakmont Gross Club Champ wins that proposition.

 

It seems difficult on social media to discuss this subject rationally.  It wasn't long ago we were trying to discuss here, the phenomenal accuracy of some LPGA players, and that started to get out of hand.  For every blowhard like the Stagner OP, there's a guy saying the top Korn Ferry players would also get crushed, which is ludicrous.  

[sunbeltgolfer]

3 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I think I just found the guy.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12547603/Full-hulk-topless-golfer-arrested-TWICE-summer-menacing-behavior-outside-home-including-one-incident-threatened-neighbor-wearing-underwear.html

 

 

I wonder what his user name is here. 

[third-times-a-charm]

lol the hubris of low cap men who think they stack up to seasoned LPGA players is astonishing

[Soloman1]

Average score of a 3 is about 78.

 

Her scoring average is 70.4.

 

[PJE]

LPGA Tour pros are not good in comparison to PGA Tour pros.  The PGA Tour plays much longer and tougher courses with harder set ups and faster greens. 
LPGA Tour pros might be even with elite male amateurs, e.g, US Amateur champions and some of the collegiate crowd.

Who is not not good, but thinks they are, are club champions from "elite" courses.  Such a person might give an LPGA Tour pro a run for the money in an 18 hole match but overall an LPGA Tour pro is better. 

[tatertot]

18 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

 

This would be the kind of example I mean.

 

A scratch would be beaten heavily.

 

Someone who is +6.2, and then moved up a few tees, all things being equal i think he would win.

Yeah, I don't think Neal Shipley is a good example of a "club champion".

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

21 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

I dont know what length pebble beach was playing but it wouldnt have been 6,900 yards because i dont think its 6900 yards even for male pros of the back tees? and the pins wouldnt be nearly as tucked or rough nearly as deep as if it were the male equivalent event.

I just went through the USGA's walkthrough of the Women's Open holes at Pebble, and it added up to 6509, Par 72.

 

I'd have to check, but doesn't Pebble play at around 6900 for the Pros at the Pro-Am, and Par 71?  (2 goes from a 509 par 5 for the women to a ~510-ish 4 for the men.  It's a par 5 for resort play)

 

Now, the infamous USGA Open course setup likely makes that course play a whole lot tougher.  Maybe even tougher than the Pro-Am's setup for the male Pros, when everything is considered?

[iutodd]

41 minutes ago, double_d said:

 Pretty sure Neal Shipley runner up to US Am this year, +6.2 or 6.4 or something was club champ at his parents/ his CC here in PGH a year or two ago.

 

You don't think he could beat her?

 

I'm thinking 95% of club champs couldn't though.

 

 

I mention Stew Hagestad in my post as being an example of an Amateur Male Golfer that could probably compete on the same level as Charley Hull (or the LPGA in general).

 

But you're changing the question. There are two basic questions at hand here and both of them have the same answer.

 

Could a 3 handicap compete on the LPGA Tour?  That answer is unequivocally NO.  NO CHANCE.

 

Could a "Club Champion" beat Charley Hull?  That answer is also NO.

 

If you want to change the question to say: Could the Mens US Am Runner Up compete with Charley Hull?  Then that answer is maybe.  At least it would be interesting to see it happen.

[double_d]

2 minutes ago, iutodd said:

 

I mention Stew Hagestad in my post as being an example of an Amateur Male Golfer that could probably compete on the same level as Charley Hull (or the LPGA in general).

 

But you're changing the question. There are two basic questions at hand here and both of them have the same answer.

 

Could a 3 handicap compete on the LPGA Tour?  That answer is unequivocally NO.  NO CHANCE.

 

Could a "Club Champion" beat Charley Hull?  That answer is also NO.

 

If you want to change the question to say: Could the Mens US Am Runner Up compete with Charley Hull?  Then that answer is maybe.  At least it would be interesting to see it happen.

Could a "Club Champion" beat Charley Hull?  That answer is also NO.

 

I'm not changing the question. Shipley was club champion at a PGH CC like a year ago. 

[mshills]

12 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Yeah, I don't think Neal Shipley is a good example of a "club champion".

 

This thread delivers!!!!

 

Look, there are plenty of clubs with an amateur member at such a level, meaning a national and global tournament-winning guy.  These guys typically give zero flips about winning the local club championship...but I reckon it's a bigger thing at Oakmont or Seminole than it is at Bushwood LOL.

 

So, is it theoretically possible, sure, for players you could probably count on one hand.

 

On the example given here in this thread, I am fairly sure the player in question is from the club 2 blocks from where I live.  It is a nice club but not in the same stratosphere of difficulty as Oakmont.  Shipley is a hell of a player, good collegiate player and got hot at the right time for the US Am.

[Denny100]

42 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

I just went through the USGA's walkthrough of the Women's Open holes at Pebble, and it added up to 6509, Par 72.

 

I'd have to check, but doesn't Pebble play at around 6900 for the Pros at the Pro-Am, and Par 71?  (2 goes from a 509 par 5 for the women to a ~510-ish 4 for the men.  It's a par 5 for resort play)

 

Now, the infamous USGA Open course setup likely makes that course play a whole lot tougher.  Maybe even tougher than the Pro-Am's setup for the male Pros, when everything is considered?

 

Id still say the pro am course would be ranked harder than the course for the womens us open. Might not be a huge difference but id say the mens course would be tougher.

 

 

[Denny100]

44 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Yeah, I don't think Neal Shipley is a good example of a "club champion".

 

He might not be but the standard of club champions where i live is high.

 

Plenty of +5's.

 

Standards of club champions probably varies quite a bit.

[double_d]

7 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

So, is it theoretically possible, sure, for players you could probably count on one hand.

 

Right, that's all I'm saying is there are no absolutes. You can probably count the guys on one hand who could do it.

 

I was just pointing out there are 2 or 3 guys out there who are recent amateur club champions, carry a +6.2 or even better, AND have played in front of a crowd/on TV.

 

Like you said, you can probably count them on one hand.

[double_d]

3 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

 

He might not be but the standard of club champions where i live is high.

 

Plenty of +5's.

 

Standards of club champions probably varies quite a bit.

I think they are saying he's too good to be considered your "typical club champion" and he probably is.

Edited September 22 by double_d

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

Catalyst for topic:  

 

Charley Hull challenges man behind ‘sexist’ DM to round of golf, trash talk begins early | This is the Loop | GolfDigest.com

 

In the spirit of silly season topics, the subject line is the question.

 

Conditions:

 

1. The men's club champion must be an amateur from a US Open quality course (eg, Oakmont, Shinnecock, etc.).

2. Per Ms. Hull's tweet, she gets to play the white tees, and the CC plays from the red tees.

3. Course must be at least 6,000 yards long from the white tees. 

 

At the risk of being chauvinistic, I don't think it would be close.  The CC would win going away.  I know I'm probably wrong, but I think the different tees would be a deciding factor.

 

Anyway, some promoter should get this match on TV.  It could be the BJK vs Bobby Riggs event for the 21st century.

 

One of these days someone is going to frame this question the "right" way.

 

COULD he beat CH ? Of course he could. How many times (out of say 10) ? Who knows ?

 

But "by the numbers",,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

You said red tees for the CC, who's likely at least a +3, and likely from close to 7K yards.

 

Men's ratings and women's are about 5 shots different. That brings CH's +6(?) comparable to about a men's +1

 

Now, red tees. Red tees are typically the shortest tees on the course. Since you "Open quality course", I happened to look up Shinnecock. Their red tees appear to be the TIPS.

 

So I took a look at Oakmont - red tees are up front.

 

At Oakmont, a +3's 'cap rounds average 73. CR from the reds would be about 69, 8 shots lower than from the tips 73-8 = 65.

 

Assuming you mean red=shortest tees, that would have the CC playing about 500 yards shorter than CH. I'll give the CC about 280 off the tee.

 

He's hitting every par 5 in 2, some with <PW. CH can hit a couple of them - with longer clubs. He's chipping to a few greens, she's hitting wedges. He's hitting LWs to some greens, she's hitting 7 irons.

 

Since he's from an Open-type course he shouldn't have a problem putting lightning-fast greens (otherwise this could be a major factor).

 

All other things being equal, based purely on the numbers, and assuming he doesn't fold under the pressure (where Hull DOES have an advantage) of the TV cameras, there's no doubt he could win. How often ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Soloman1]

This is what happens when it’s off season for tour golf. 😉