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AMG video on : setting the record straight on our golf swing analysis


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1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I mean is it a shocker that two different teachers have two different teaching styles and present the same things in terms of different swing feels? 


They are not though. They are literally presenting opposite things while knowing all of the same data.

 

Whats really annoying is when people defend all of their arguments with “this has been measured” — it’s not just Monte. The interpretation of the data can be very different and it’s ok to have an opinion and that doesn’t make a person “ignorant”

Edited by MPStrat
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8 minutes ago, MPStrat said:


They are not though. They are literally presenting opposite things while knowing all of the same data.

 

Whats really annoying is when people defend all of their arguments with “this has been measured” — it’s not just Monte. The interpretation of the data can be very different and it’s ok to have an opinion. 

 

I guess that's where you and I disagree. I just typed up a whole post with Tyler's videos showing that the data is generally in accordance, which you chose to ignore, which I think says something about your intentions in this thread. 

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2 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I guess that's where you and I disagree. I just typed up a whole post with Tyler's videos showing that the data is generally in accordance, which you chose to ignore, which I think says something about your intentions in this thread. 


You are making assumptions about my intentions in this thread. I’ll wait for Monte’s video on the lower body release and delaying the arms in transition. 

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Just now, Simpsonia said:

 

Hard not to make assumptions given the behavior pattern. You make an appeal to an authority (Tyler), then when presented with evidence that you misrepresented that authority's teachings, you dip out and say "that's not the point!". 


How many videos has Monte made on delaying the arms in transition? That’s the video I used in the post that was a reply the impossible to start the arms too soon talking point 

 

I am attacking an argument and a theory about the golf swing. You are bringing emotions into it and making it a personal thing. We learn by discussing differences of opinion about the golf swing. 

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1 hour ago, MPStrat said:


They are not though. They are literally presenting opposite things while knowing all of the same data.

 

Whats really annoying is when people defend all of their arguments with “this has been measured” — it’s not just Monte. The interpretation of the data can be very different and it’s ok to have an opinion. 

The United States of American federal reserve employs 400 phds and everyone and their momma questions whether they know what they are doing but 2 golf coaches putts out a advertisement in order to drive traffic to their physical and virtual location using measured data on YouTube and if you question some of the findings you are considered a troll🤣

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13 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The United States of American federal reserve employs 400 phds and everyone and their momma questions whether they know what they are doing but 2 golf coaches putts out a advertisement in order to drive traffic to their physical and virtual location using measured data on YouTube and if you question some of the findings you are considered a troll🤣


Don’t forget “keyboard warrior” 

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6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:


Don’t forget “keyboard warrior” 

Let’s not forget it wasn’t that long ago that Rory’s hips were measured stopping mid downswing to let his arms get back in front of him and  then they restarted by the sports science show. That’s since has been proven false..the sensors moved during the swing. I’m not saying that AMG’s sensors moved or anything like that…it’s just an example of it was measured and it turned out wrong. 
 

I believe that all of AMG’s information they presented is correct. I personally have an issue with anyone being told “it’s measured therefore unquestionable”. 
 

 

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I am really surprised that the discussion on external / internal  shoulder rotation has come up , since it is ANATOMY 101.

 

The head of humerus bone ( upper arm bone) connects with glenohumeral   joint of the shoulder, which is the most mobile joint of the body  .The other end (distal end ) of the humerus connects with the bones ( ulnar and radial )  of the lower arm to form the elbow joint . Therefore ANY movement of the head of the humerus ( upper arm bone ) MUST also  be reflected in a similar movement at the elbow .
The chart below 

shows the range of motion of external / internal rotation  of the shoulder joint .

Neutral rotation is when the lower arm is parallel to the ground , while maximum external rotation happens when the lower arm is facing 90  degrees upwards to the ground and maximum internal rotation happens when the lower arm  faces 70 degrees to the ground  Small variations in the maximum amount of external / internal rotation from these numbers are not unusual .

Obviously NO golfer has their trail shoulder in internal rotation at the top . That would involve the lower arm facing down . But golfers such as Bubba , Jack and others come closer to the neutral position and have room for some external shoulder rotation going starting down The more that the lower arm is facing away from the maximum of 90 degrees at the top  , the more likely that some external shoulder rotation will take place .

To argue that your database reflects no external rotation reflects a database in which all golfers have their shoulder close to maximum external rotation like TIGER . 

 

 

IMG_4923.png

IMG_4736.png

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On 10/30/2023 at 6:07 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

>The how to clear the hips video on how ams have greater >movement in the opposite hip as pros is quite honestly the best >technical video ever created to help ams understand bette>r >movement.  

Link ?

 

Is that an AMG video ?

 

If so, search for "hip"  gets  18 hits  here :

https://www.youtube.com/@AthleticMotionGolf/videos

 

I can (and probably will ) watch all of those, but I'm interested in seeing the one you thought was so good.

 

On 10/30/2023 at 6:07 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

 

 

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28 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Let’s not forget it wasn’t that long ago that Rory’s hips were measured stopping mid downswing to let his arms get back in front of him and  then they restarted by the sports science show. That’s since has been proven false..the sensors moved during the swing. I’m not saying that AMG’s sensors moved or anything like that…it’s just an example of it was measured and it turned out wrong. 
 

I believe that all of AMG’s information they presented is correct. I personally have an issue with anyone being told “it’s measured therefore unquestionable”. 

 

The Rory "double hip stall" lol

 

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2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

As a huge Tyler disciple, I think you're mixing up a few things. He's one of the original 3D guys going back to the AMM days and has tons of data on wrist patterns. I think he would generally be in agreement with Monte that most all pros' trail wrists are moving from extension toward flexion at the moment of impact (even in his 2018 WGFS presentation on Arm Movement of Elite Golfers, his model pattern on Steve Elkington shows movement from extension towards flexion at the moment of impact, though it's very closely timed a couple milliseconds before impact; https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/wgfs-2018-arm-movements-elite-golfers/). Your wrists can both be in extension but also moving towards flexion at a particular moment in time, and that's what all the data shows. 

 

How much and when they are moving towards flexion is up to the individual pattern. He also makes a point that the trail wrist needs to lose (or limit) trail wrist extension because it limits the amount of ulnar deviation of the wrists (https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/connecting-trail-wrist-extension-trail-wrist-ulnar-deviation/). Without proper ulnar deviation you'll never have a proper release either. So it's all about balancing the competing interests. The wrists need to unhinge (ulnar) early which requires the loss or limitation of trail wrist extension. Now there are outliers who naturally limit radial deviation a lot (DJ) and so are able to hold on to their trail wrist extension later in the swing, but they still lose it at impact. A proper release is a change in direction that causes the trail wrist to move from extension towards flexion, but requires soft wrists. This release pattern is one of the main generators of club speed through impact. Tyler definitely does not recommend "holding" the wrists through impact (I've had this discussion on his site as a subscriber), though he may subscribe the feeling for certain drills at times for beginners who need to know what it feels like to be in extension at impact. 

 

I think the whole point of Monte's Cast B is that most amateur golfers don't know the proper feel of that release pattern. It's not a feel that works for me personally, but I can see how it can work for others. I do agree that "fire the arms" is a bit too vague in some ways as the arms as a movement pattern means many different things to many different people. For me, "firing the arms" means pulling with the shoulders, which is an OTT death move to the swing, so I have to feel passive arms, but that's just my own personal feel. 

 

Tylers video is kind of interesting, goes back to what I was saying. We have the data which shows the lead wrist going towards extension in the downswing but then it's like what is causing that to happen. Tyler in the video says he prefers not to have a cast pattern from the top but to have a "lag movement in transition or a delay of the arms" which will aid in the jump/vertical component in the swing. Basically feeling the cast or release happen more with the jump component in your swing.

 

 

-adding video I was talking about  https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzGzWJkuvOM/?igshid=YjVjNjZkNmFjNg==

 

Edited by MK7Golf21
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26 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

But golfers such as Bubba, Jack and others come closer to the neutral position…

 

Excuse Me Wow GIF by Mashable

 

How close would you call this to neutral? Looks pretty external to me if neutral would be about 30° below horizontal.

 

bubba.jpg.d27fb7ab112e802dfbe67c2372fdfff7.jpg

 

26 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

the more likely that some external shoulder rotation will take place

 

Cool… but you've got no data of your own to show that it does happen in the golfers they talked about. You're just talking theoretical — that there is some room to add external rotation — you're not talking about something you've measured that actually happens.

 

I can bend my right elbow more than I do in my golf swing currently, but that doesn't mean I do; only that I have more room for it to bend if I wanted to do so or made it do so.

 

(FWIW I think that some ER does happen in a lot of golfers in transition, but they weren't entirely clear on when they put the A and B of "is the golfer in more external at point B than they were at point A".)

 

26 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

To argue that your database reflects no external rotation reflects a database in which all golfers have their shoulder close to maximum external rotation like TIGER.

 

No, that's not an accurate statement at all. (Yours, @golfarb1.) Just because there's a little more room to move in that direction doesn't mean that players actually do move in that direction.

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Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 26. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Tylers video is kind of interesting, goes back to what I was saying. We have the data which shows the lead wrist going towards extension in the downswing but then it's like what is causing that to happen. Tyler in the video says he prefers not to have a cast pattern from the top but to have a "lag movement in transition or a delay of the arms" which will aid in the jump/vertical component in the swing. Basically feeling the cast or release happen more with the jump component in your swing.

 

 

-adding video I was talking about  https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzGzWJkuvOM/?igshid=YjVjNjZkNmFjNg==

 

But the direction of the cast pattern is important, I think? And that's not really covered in any of this. I don't think Monte or anyone who is focused on hand-centric transition feels is advocating to feel the cast toward something like 5 or 4:00 (target at 12) like Tyler is showing in the first video that was posted. That's a "bad" cast.

No one advocates for a "cast," as traditionally described as a swing flaw. But feeling like you "cast" toward 7 or 8:00 can cause good things to happen with hand path, arm movement, upper body pivot, and hip rotation because it gets the club head moving away from the target and the ball at the very beginning of the backswing, which happens in good swings. The way I viewed it, is that it was a motion/feel that could help synchronize the other equally important movements in the downswing, and even help change the way they move if they were wrong.

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1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Tylers video is kind of interesting, goes back to what I was saying. We have the data which shows the lead wrist going towards extension in the downswing but then it's like what is causing that to happen. Tyler in the video says he prefers not to have a cast pattern from the top but to have a "lag movement in transition or a delay of the arms" which will aid in the jump/vertical component in the swing. Basically feeling the cast or release happen more with the jump component in your swing.

 

 

-adding video I was talking about  https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzGzWJkuvOM/?igshid=YjVjNjZkNmFjNg==

 

 

 

I mean if we're talking about trail wrist extension, yes, the trail wrist moves towards (or maintains) extension from the top through most of the downswing. However it does start moving toward flexion in the release phase just prior to impact. That's literally what the release is, releasing trail wrist extension. And yeah, Tyler's feel of utilizing the up component of the swing (p6.5 to p7) is how I feel the release happen as well, as long as I can remember to remove all tension from my wrists. When I hold any amount of wrist tension, I don't get the right release sequencing and end up blocking to the right, and also lose a ton of clubhead speed in the process. That's where I disagree with some how some of the Foley stuff is interpreted. If you try to actively hold that trail wrist extension, you'll have way too much wrist tension and will never be able to release properly. Properly maintaining the trail wrist extension is all passively done, at least for how I feel things. But I can really only speak for the feels that work for me. 

 

Here's the Hackmotion data on the trail wrist showing how it moves towards flexion in the release. 

https://hackmotion.com/trail-wrist-in-golf/

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19 minutes ago, JayMas said:

But the direction of the cast pattern is important, I think? And that's not really covered in any of this. I don't think Monte or anyone who is focused on hand-centric transition feels is advocating to feel the cast toward something like 5 or 4:00 (target at 12) like Tyler is showing in the first video that was posted.

No one advocates for a "cast," as traditionally described as a swing flaw. But feeling like you "cast" toward 7 or 8:00 can cause good things to happen with hand path, arm movement, upper body pivot, and hip rotation because it gets the club head moving away from the target and the ball at the very beginning of the backswing, which happens in good swings. The way I viewed it, is that it was a motion/feel that could help synchronize the other equally important movements in the downswing, and even help change the way they move if they were wrong.

 

I didn't see Tyler showing a cast is bad if it's towards 5 or 4 o clock specifically, he is talking about consciously making the lever longer out of sequence. Keep in mind Tiger is his famous Butch video explaining his 2000 swing was showing a cast towards 4 o clock or whatever, basically the Malaska move casting the club in front of himself.  I view what Tyler is saying as the jump basically aiding in the release and you don't have to do much. 

 

I'm not saying I agree or do what Tyler is teaching but I'm just pointing out different teachings using the same set of data we have from 3d. 

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7 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

 

I mean if we're talking about trail wrist extension, yes, the trail wrist moves towards (or maintains) extension from the top through most of the downswing. However it does start moving toward flexion in the release phase just prior to impact. That's literally what the release is, releasing trail wrist extension. And yeah, Tyler's feel of utilizing the up component of the swing (p6.5 to p7) is how I feel the release happen as well, as long as I can remember to remove all tension from my wrists. When I hold any amount of wrist tension, I don't get the right release sequencing and end up blocking to the right, and also lose a ton of clubhead speed in the process. That's where I disagree with some how some of the Foley stuff is interpreted. If you try to actively hold that trail wrist extension, you'll have way too much wrist tension and will never be able to release properly. Properly maintaining the trail wrist extension is all passively done. 

 

Here's the Hackmotion data on the trail wrist showing how it moves towards flexion in the release. 

https://hackmotion.com/trail-wrist-in-golf/

 

yea I would agree with that is what Tyler is teaching based off those videos.

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6 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

yea I would agree with that is what Tyler is teaching based off those videos.

 

I think what's being lost is that the whole NTC thing is being a little misunderstood. The Cast A (as I understand it) is really just getting rid of radial deviation early (going into ulnar deviation), this is something that Tyler advocates as well (I've had discussions with him on his forums about it). Getting rid of radial deviation early also advocated by Chris Como (the Immelman Axe drill below). Personally I've never been able to work out the feel or timing of it, so I've just moved to a DJ style of almost eliminating how much I radially deviate in the backswing so I don't have to worry about removing it in the downswing. 

 

 

 

  

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14 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

Properly maintaining the trail wrist extension is all passively done. 

 

I'm wondering if the word passive will be allowed in this case for those who like to police the use of that word.

 

We know that there was a recent study measuring the grip pressure in the trail hand at impact and that higher handicaps are more prone to having more pressure in their trail hand at impact than better players. I'm not sure we can make any definitive statements based on that study but I have some opinions.

 

For the record I think most of the trail wrist/trail hand stuff in the change of direction and downswing should be responsive for lack of a better word. But not for everyone. I think there are some rare cases where a good player might need some of cast B and some who might need more prosendr. 

 

Some of it comes down to whether a player is trying to increase or decrease dynamic loft. Some of it comes down to whether a player has an issue with the club kicking outside their hands too much late.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I think what's being lost is that the whole NTC thing is being a little misunderstood. The Cast A (as I understand it) is really just getting rid of radial deviation early (going into ulnar deviation), this is something that Tyler advocates as well (I've had discussions with him on his forums about it). Getting rid of radial deviation early also advocated by Chris Como (the Immelman Axe drill below). Personally I've never been able to work out the feel or timing of it, so I've just moved to a DJ style of almost eliminating how much I radially deviate in the backswing so I don't have to worry about removing it in the downswing. 

 

 

 

  

 

There are definitely many amateur golfers, particularly those who kick the club outside their hands who need some more of cast A. I agree with that.

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4 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I think what's being lost is that the whole NTC thing is being a little misunderstood. The Cast A (as I understand it) is really just getting rid of radial deviation early (going into ulnar deviation), this is something that Tyler advocates as well (I've had discussions with him on his forums about it). Getting rid of radial deviation early also advocated by Chris Como (the Immelman Axe drill below). Personally I've never been able to work out the feel or timing of it, so I've just moved to a DJ style of almost eliminating how much I radially deviate in the backswing so I don't have to worry about removing it in the downswing. 

 

 

 

  

 

yeah I've seen that before, it's a good video. Como is probably one of the least method guys out there. I've seen him teach Immelman for example that move in the video and then others more of a turn into arms move like GG.

 

For example on this lesson, he is teaching him to turn into his left arm and right tilt.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

I didn't see Tyler showing a cast is bad if it's towards 5 or 4 o clock specifically, he is talking about consciously making the lever longer out of sequence. Keep in mind Tiger is his famous Butch video explaining his 2000 swing was showing a cast towards 4 o clock or whatever, basically the Malaska move casting the club in front of himself.  I view what Tyler is saying as the jump basically aiding in the release and you don't have to do much. 

 

I'm not saying I agree or do what Tyler is teaching but I'm just pointing out different teachings using the same set of data we have from 3d. 

Ahhh gotcha, that's very helpful. Thank you!

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Funny, seems to me pretty clear from Foley and Woods prosendr is not used just one way.  They are very clear at P6 the better player goes into their release pattern, the hacks who have no low point control are better served feeling they hold the angle more.  

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuHwc7TgMZy/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

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I agree that measurement and interpretation are separate.

 

Measurements can be wrong. You dig into them and try to verify and validate. You throw out the ones that can be replicated.

 

All data, even from the highest precision ones for movies, have to be cleaned up from raw. Smoothing is sometimes necessary between data points lost for different reasons. The downswing is less than the blink of an eye.

 

Interpretation (What does it mean??!) is a different animal. There is more room to question, as there should be. There is not always a one-to-one action and reaction. There could be two different things and both right or both wrong.

 

When you do this, this other thing or two over here not directly connected to this may change the that over there.

 

It’s easier to play golf than think about it. 🙂

 

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4 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

I'm wondering if the word passive will be allowed in this case for those who like to police the use of that word.

 

We know that there was a recent study measuring the grip pressure in the trail hand at impact and that higher handicaps are more prone to having more pressure in their trail hand at impact than better players. I'm not sure we can make any definitive statements based on that study but I have some opinions.

 

For the record I think most of the trail wrist/trail hand stuff in the change of direction and downswing should be responsive for lack of a better word. But not for everyone. I think there are some rare cases where a good player might need some of cast B and some who might need more prosendr. 

 

Some of it comes down to whether a player is trying to increase or decrease dynamic loft. Some of it comes down to whether a player has an issue with the club kicking outside their hands too much late.

 

 

Sure it will be allowed,especially when paired with aggressive such as: "There are a lot of passive aggressive posts in this thread."

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      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 13 replies

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