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Should have been .370 across the board


rbpwrx

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1 hour ago, rsballer10 said:

For sure. I consider myself fortunate that component clubs were readily available circa 2008 when I started building clubs. I will say for a fact that starting out on 0.370 parallel tip shafts was a great way to learn how shafts work. TBH the whole "spinner shaft" and soft/hard stepping confusion gets demystified if you learn how to tip/butt trim a set of iron shafts to flex. 

 

Couldn't agree more. I love custom building sets using parallel tip shafts. So much more flexibility on flex-stepping etc when the tip section is infinitely variable.

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22 hours ago, HeadCovered said:

100% agree with you. 
350 should’ve been the standard. 
I think 370 would’ve been too thick, probably would have robbed a little bit of “feel” there. And I think that’s the thing. It’s the feel and a bit more whip at the bottom that a lot of people need. 
For sure fast swingers always break it. 
 

It’s such a weird world we live in, huh. So many “standards” in the world from electric plugs and voltages and, we still have to deal with the fight between English and Metric. 😝 

 

Totally agree many players need the 'whip.' But a hybrid or iron shaft can be pretty damn whippy, no? We're only talking about a 0.035" difference in diameter. Just like with .335, adjusting the quantity, strength, and orientation of fibers in the lower-mid and tip section determines how much it'll bend and flex (whip). Just a little less bulk needed.

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On 11/20/2023 at 4:05 PM, FirstFlight said:

Interesting...this dialogue leads one to envision an aftermarket adapter. An adapter that fits normal OEM driver/wood adjustable hosel heads with a .370. Maybe it is already available or has been tried? I haven't looked yet.

 

Aftermarket wood adapters designed to take a .370 diameter would seriously be awesome.  

 

One of my club tinkering sub specialties is figuring out how to jury rig clubs to create solutions like this.  I’m willing to try just about anything, even if the end result could only be comedy.

 

A modern Callaway fairway wood with an adapter will accept the latest Callaway hybrid adapter and it works great.  

 

A modern Callaway driver will accept the previous version of the Callaway hybrid adapter (the current version won’t fit).  However, I tested it with a Modus 120X and something felt weird on contact.  To ensure this isn’t being caused by faulty assembly on my part, I plan to reassemble with a different shaft and see if I feel the same issue.  

 

There is no way (that I’m aware of) to rig Titleist, Taylormade, or Ping in a similar

manner.  I haven’t tried any of the other manufacturers yet.  

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On 11/20/2023 at 4:05 PM, FirstFlight said:

Interesting...this dialogue leads one to envision an aftermarket adapter. An adapter that fits normal OEM driver/wood adjustable hosel heads with a .370. Maybe it is already available or has been tried? I haven't looked yet.

 

Aftermarket wood adapters designed to take a .370 diameter would seriously be awesome.  

 

One of my club tinkering sub specialties is figuring out how to jury rig clubs to create solutions like this.  I’m willing to try just about anything, even if the end result could only be comedy.

 

A modern Callaway fairway wood with an adapter will accept the latest Callaway hybrid adapter and it works great.  

 

A modern Callaway driver will accept the previous version of the Callaway hybrid adapter (the current version won’t fit).  However, I tested it with a Modus 120X and something felt weird on contact.  To ensure this isn’t being caused by faulty assembly on my part, I plan to reassemble with a different shaft and see if I feel the same issue.  

 

There is no way (that I’m aware of) to rig Titleist, Taylormade, or Ping in a similar

manner.  I haven’t tried any of the other manufacturers yet.  

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3 minutes ago, bg3putts said:

The big difference was feel, the 350 and 370 feel boardy in drivers and with modern shafts the tip contol is easy to handle so no need to switch.


Well, of course there are many .370 ladies shafts and senior shafts in irons and hybrids. So the tip diameter does not limit you to a boardy, stiff, or low-torque profile. But it DOES make achieving those things much easier.

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Also Titleist FW and Hybrid adapters are the same fit, except one accepts a .335 shaft and the other .370 shaft.

 

I bought a couple cheap uncut Evenflow White T1100 driver & hybrid shafts on eBay and next weeks project is to use the EFW 75G driver shaft in my 20* TSR1 hybrid head, playing a little longer than stock, for a bit of a Franken'Wood experiment.  I also have a TSR1 23* 9W head in transit to me and will experiment with that one too.

Edited by ARL67
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26 minutes ago, ARL67 said:

Also Titleist FW and Hybrid adapters are the same fit, except one accepts a .335 shaft and the other .370 shaft.

 

I bought a couple cheap uncut Evenflow White T1100 driver & hybrid shafts on eBay and next weeks project is to use the EFW 75G driver shaft in my 20* TSR1 hybrid head, playing a little longer than stock, for a bit of a Franken'Wood experiment.  I also have a TSR1 23* 9W head in transit to me and will experiment with that one too.


Can you go the other direction and put a hybrid shaft in a fairway or driver head?

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EDIT: see post 2 below from Valtiel to correct some of my mis-information

 

^^^ Titleist FW & Hybrid are "near the same" ( EDIT) adapter, different shaft diameter, so you can interchange either way.  Driver is a different adapter ( longer ) and will not fit into a FW or Hybrid head.

Edited by ARL67
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3 minutes ago, ARL67 said:

^^^ Titleist FW & Hybrid is the same adapter, different shaft diameter, so you can interchange either way.  Driver is a different adapter ( longer ) and will not fit into a FW or Hybrid head.

 

Very cool. So a hybrid adapter will fit in a fairway head? How did I not notice this??

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57 minutes ago, ARL67 said:

^^^ Titleist FW & Hybrid is the same adapter, different shaft diameter, so you can interchange either way.  Driver is a different adapter ( longer ) and will not fit into a FW or Hybrid head.

 

53 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

 

Very cool. So a hybrid adapter will fit in a fairway head? How did I not notice this??


Because you actually have to modify the hybrid adaptor slightly to fit as they aren't actually the same, it's just that the smaller .335 fairway wood adaptor *can* fit into a Titleist hybrid and have the cogs/teeth lineup, but it isn't a 1:1 fit. It works, but you can see that the fairway adaptor doesn't fit completely flush. Steve Stricker's WITB (and the great photos with it) show this pretty well, here is his 3w:

ScreenShot2023-11-27at3_05_26PM.png.9364eca29a520c245bb2fca91f040d4b.png

And here is his hybrid with a fairway wood adaptor installed:

ScreenShot2023-11-27at3_05_37PM.png.a91e2088dd26f1908cd9341c91437e49.png

That size difference is what initially borks the attempts to reverse this; the fairway wood adaptor fits in the larger hybrid adaptor hosel with slightly mismatched cog teeth but the hybrid adaptor does not physically fit into the smaller fairway wood hosel. The tip of the hybrid adaptor has a silver ring around it that prevents this, *however* it will fit if you remove said silver ring. I've tried it just now and it does seem to seat securely in a fairway wood head, so i'd imagine you now have your winter experiment lined up. 😅

Edited by Valtiel
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^^^ Thanks for the correction.  I just checked with digital calipers too.  The OD on Hybrid ABCD cog is about 0.583 while the FW ABCD cog is 0.554  ( 14.78mm vs 14.05mm ).  

 

I've only just used ( yesterday ) a FW shaft/adapter in a Hybrid head and all fit OK.  Testing just now with a Hybrid shaft/adapter in a FW head, Yes one would need to remove the retainer ring that prevents ABCD cog from falling off.  It will fit, but there is a wee bit of overhang on the cog due to the diameter differences.

Edited by ARL67
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An adapter is the best place to start. That would allow shaft OEMs an avenue to begin experimenting to see how the new diameter might be accepted. And THAT is the main hurdle. If the masses don't accept a new .370 standard, then the OEMs won't do it. There might be boutique dealers who may offer something to those who are wanting it, but the pricing would, of course, be high. I would give them a try since I like tight feeling shafts. I would also think the LD participants would also be interested. 

 

BT

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3 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

An adapter is the best place to start. That would allow shaft OEMs an avenue to begin experimenting to see how the new diameter might be accepted. And THAT is the main hurdle. If the masses don't accept a new .370 standard, then the OEMs won't do it. There might be boutique dealers who may offer something to those who are wanting it, but the pricing would, of course, be high. I would give them a try since I like tight feeling shafts. I would also think the LD participants would also be interested. 

 

BT


Yep. But seems like we wouldn't even need major acceptance to give this a shot. Just somebody to make a custom adapter, and someone to make hybrid shafts a little longer. Then, if it's a hit, like on the LD circuit as you said, the masses would follow.

 

Meanwhile, per above, I think I have an extra Titey hybrid adapter, and a full-length hy shaft. Going to stick one in a fairway head and see what happens!

 

Edited by rbpwrx
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55 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:


Yep. But seems like we wouldn't even need major acceptance to give this a shot. Just somebody to make a custom adapter, and someone to make hybrid shafts a little longer. Then, if it's a hit, like on the LD circuit as you said, the masses would follow.

 

Meanwhile, per above, I think I have an extra Titey hybrid adapter, and a full-length hy shaft. Going to stick one in a fairway head and see what happens!

 

I'm beginning to think this whole theory would be a great test with FWs. The length and weight of the low torque Hyb shafts seem to fall in that range more than drivers. Not many folks comfortable with 80g driver shafts these days and the 60g hybrid shafts have much higher torque.

 

BT

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4 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I'm beginning to think this whole theory would be a great test with FWs. The length and weight of the low torque Hyb shafts seem to fall in that range more than drivers. Not many folks comfortable with 80g driver shafts these days and the 60g hybrid shafts have much higher torque.

 

BT


thinking exactly the same

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14 hours ago, rbpwrx said:


thinking exactly the same

 

Main downside is that the hybrid shafts are designed for much heavier head weights and will have much stiffer longitudinal stiffness profiles.   So the test wouldn't even come close to isolating any potential difference in torsional properties (if there are any).

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Main downside is that the hybrid shafts are designed for much heavier head weights and will have much stiffer longitudinal stiffness profiles.   So the test wouldn't even come close to isolating any potential difference in torsional properties (if there are any).

 

 

If doing it you'd need to start with a blank hybrid shafts, as play lengths won't accommodate the fwy wood play lengths, in essence there will be very little butt trimming, if any, depending on finished fairway wood length.  It won't be a plug and play scenario (taking a 2h finished shaft with adapter and plugging into a 3w head will be - in play length)....maybe a 2h into a 7w would come close but it seems to be a Frankenstein project that will take quite a bit more thought.  Not to say it can't be successful, but why not just find a wood shaft with your desired specs vs. continuing.to go down the rabbit hole🤔....🙃

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4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Main downside is that the hybrid shafts are designed for much heavier head weights and will have much stiffer longitudinal stiffness profiles.   So the test wouldn't even come close to isolating any potential difference in torsional properties (if there are any).

 

The difference between a 19* hybrid head and a 15* FW head is maybe about 20g. So, yes, the head is lighter. Which will make the shaft play stiffer and tighter. But the extra longitudinal and torsional stiffness is the whole point! Some of us consider that a benefit. 🙂 As to playing length, I'm at 42" in my 3W. So that gives me maybe 1" to play with from a raw shaft. Not ideal, perhaps, but likely enough if I choose profile and weight wisely. We'll see how it goes! Looking at head/shaft combos in the shop right now. 👍

 

Edited by rbpwrx
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36 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

In my case the .370 shaft was a near perfect fit for length and swing weight when used for my 42 inch Driver!  I also have a 41 inch wood shaft for the same head.

 

There's a lot to be said for a 42" driver. I have an OG Blue X tipped over 3" (!) in an old 8.5* T-M 300 head playing 42". That thing is an absolute beast, even better on the course than on the range, almost impossible to miss the fairway with a low running cut, and barely any shorter than my 44" driver in total distance. Unless carry is the goal, my stats are better with the shorty, by a significant margin. And confidence is off the charts!

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42 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

In my case the .370 shaft was a near perfect fit for length and swing weight when used for my 42 inch Driver!  I also have a 41 inch wood shaft for the same head.

 

Wait, did you build a driver w/ .370 shaft? Do you have pics??

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7 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

That was my post on November 21st with a picture.  It may have been a 0.370 iron shaft.  In any case it was the right flex, length, and weight!

 

Right, I remember. B/c it didn't show the head, I didn't realize it was a driver. And you filed down the shaft to accept the adapter. Do you think the loss of fibers would weaken the tip enough to be a concern? I would worry about breaking at the top of the adapter...

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1 minute ago, rbpwrx said:

 

Right, I remember. B/c it didn't show the head, I didn't realize it was a driver. And you filed down the shaft to accept the adapter. Do you think the loss of fibers would weaken the tip enough to be a concern? I would worry about breaking at the top of the adapter...

Not going to happen at my swing speed.  

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1 hour ago, rbpwrx said:

 

The difference between a 19* hybrid head and a 15* FW head is maybe about 20g. So, yes, the head is lighter. Which will make the shaft play stiffer and tighter. But the extra longitudinal and torsional stiffness is the whole point! Some of us consider that a benefit. 🙂 As to playing length, I'm at 42" in my 3W. So that gives me maybe 1" to play with from a raw shaft. Not ideal, perhaps, but likely enough if I choose profile and weight wisely. We'll see how it goes! Looking at head/shaft combos in the shop right now. 👍

 

 

Sorry.  I thought the goal was to compare the torsional stiffness in the context of the same longitudinal stiffness.   If you want to play around and crank both up without really trying to prove anything,  go right ahead, nothing wrong with that.

 

Just remember that torque specs provided by the OEM's between wood and hybrid shafts are not necessarily measured over the same lengths - so comparing the values may be misleading.   You might want to come up with your own independent system for getting uniform or consistent measurements for more valid comparisons.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

Sorry.  I thought the goal was to compare the torsional stiffness in the context of the same longitudinal stiffness.   If you want to play around and crank both up without really trying to prove anything,  go right ahead, nothing wrong with that.

 

Just remember that torque specs provided by the OEM's between wood and hybrid shafts are not necessarily measured over the same lengths - so comparing the values may be misleading.   You might want to come up with your own independent system for getting uniform or consistent measurements for more valid comparisons.

 

Yeah, it would be great to do lab-quality testing on this question, but we already know that, as a matter of simple rudimentary physics, that *all else being equal* a larger-diameter shaft is going to have more torsional stiffness than one of smaller diameter.

But it's literally impossible for all else to be equal. Even comparing FW and HY shafts of the same exact make and model, not everything would be equal other than diameter. The layup would be different - maybe only in small ways, but enough to invalidate any comparison.

Therefore, I am taking it as a *given* that torsional stability increases, as a rule, with diameter (compare any FW and HY shafts OF the same make, model, flex, and weight, and there is generally a 1.0* reduction in torque as you step from .335 to .370).

 

So I'm not trying to prove what we already know. Rather, I think it will be a fun experiment to stick a FW head on a HY shaft and see how it FEELS. The biggest difference, of course, as you've mentioned, will be head weight. 20g lighter is a lot. The shaft will flex less and twist less. So if I use a shaft that felt too light, whippy, and twisty with a HY head on it, will it feel a lot stiffer and tighter with the 3W?

Maybe that's obvious too. But the significance is: you can get the same performance from less material. And I think that's important economically (makes shafts cheaper) and maybe even morally (uses less matter). It's also significant that you could get MORE structure from the SAME material. I.e. build a XXX shaft in .370 from the same layup that gives us X in .335. Or something to that effect. We'll see!

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BTW, some manufacturers make hybrid shafts in 60g and 70g weights. Maybe lower. So a driver isn't out of the question. And for someone who plays short driver, like me (44"), I'd only need about a 1" extension in the grip end to make length. Not ideal, but probably good enough to try the experiment. Problem will be the adapter... or maybe find a really big, low-loft fairway metal head?

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Cobra King Forged MB 4i-Pw w/ KBS C-Taper 130X

Cleveland RTX4 Raw 52/58 mid w/ Rifle Spinner 7.0
Bell 2Way Blade w/ Rifle 7.0 HSx5 + Flatcat Tak Svelte

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2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Most hybrid blanks are 42" uncut.   That can easily give you between a max of 43" to 43.5" playing length depending on the specific head.  That's plenty for any fairway.

 

 

Because the whole point @rbpwrx is trying to explore is to see if the .370" tip size makes a difference.    I'm not saying I believe it's going to make a difference (IMO), but it's his time and money, not mine.  But if that's what he wants to explore - all the power to him. 🙂

Understood....and wanting to point out to others who are looking on and may experiment with this that you'd need a raw shaft to start with....and

I've read through the plethora of threads started by @rbpwrx re: torque🙃

 

I've done this experiment but for a different reason.  Wishon hybrid shafts are .335 so I've tried as historically I've used a heavy weight shaft and the red, black and white hybrid shafts offer ability to try that out.  I also use a much heavier head then standard so the expiriment went OK as I matched head weight of fwy head and trimmed to the corresponding hybrid the shaft called for or soft stepped as needed.  As it relates to this thread the Wishon torque ratings are not likely to OP standards😉

Edited by ode
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