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How do you choose your wedge bounces and grinds?


danthegolfer

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29 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If your low point was 3 or 4 inches in front of the ball as you stated you would skull the shot because the leading would hit above the equator of the ball.  This technique also generates much less spin than the proper technique.

Not true I dont skull the ball. If you have control of your low point you should just brush the grass and clip the ball like any other chip. Also you can generate plenty of spin. 

 

You can see from my trackman of doing this is creates plenty of spin with low smash negative AoA and low point way ahead of the ball 

image.png.ac267b5a73530e1e7fdcd8613ba8e339.png

 

29 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You even said yourself that you try to pick the ball off the turf when it should be more like a bunker shot. 

I never said I tried to pick the ball WHEN it should be more like a bunker shot. Please do not put false words to argue your sakes. You're being one sided saying only your way is right. YOU YOU YOU. 

I have been saying there is more than one way to do things successfully. 

 

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58 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You are supposed to engage/"thump" the turf prior to striking the ball and most of the golfing public are simply not aware of this.

I know this is a very mainstream opinion right now, but is this true in ALL cases?  I can (and do) do this effectively on a lot of different lies, but if I get into some soft, soggy, muddy dormant bermuda if I don't catch ball it's going nowhere.

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14 hours ago, danthegolfer said:

 

I share the same sentiment (shot making vs optimizing).  Perhaps more academic than anything else, I am just curious how to even approach trying to optimize something like this when there are so many different loft/lie/bounce/grind combinations.  

 

I think the guys on tour seem to have "optimized" at a practical level. There's outliers, but more than half of the tour WITB's I see have a F/S grind sand wedge, T/M/D in lob wedge. full sole combined with a crescent grind seems to give players the tools they need in order to be a shot maker. A full set of crescent grind wedges is impractical because they all do the same thing. A set of full sole wedges through the LW is equally impractical because at some point, every decent player will have to open the face and hit a lob shot. It's just required to shoot low scores on tough golf courses.

 

So on one hand fitting is important to find a diverse toolset that allows a golfer to play any shot they may need on the course. But on the other hand, it's a tad overrated because everyone kind of needs the same thing - a diverse toolset of wedges...jack of all trades, master of none.

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14 hours ago, Glock917 said:

 

That is just one way to chip and pitch. You either use the bounce or the leading edge. But to say bounce is the only way is pretty narrow minded. There are countless pros who had hall of fame careers using the leading edge. If one style fits you that is great but don't discount another technique because you do not jive with it.  

No...that is THE way to chip and pitch and the correct technique was provided by the very designer of the club who hopefully knows the purpose of the clubs they designed. There are plenty of ways to chip and pitch the ball, but there is only one most efficient way and for you to note that pros use a less efficient way as proof that you just want to be right instead of admitting that you simply choose to use a less efficient method. 

 

We as amateurs don't have the luxury of using less efficient methods because we are not as talented as touring pros.  That is also why I don't advocate hitting down on driver, even though many male pros hit down on driver and get away with it. It isn't wrong, but it isn't the most efficient method.  

 

14 hours ago, danthegolfer said:

 

 

I think this illustrates an example of where my experience doesn't align with what the convention is. I see that its very mainstream right now to "use the bounce" and all that. For me, when I'm dealing with "normal" or firm turf that's fine. But I have also had plenty of pitches/chips around soft, wet, grainy, spongy, Bermudagrass where if you don't hit ball first your club is diving into the mud even if the bounce is fully engaged. So that's why I feel the need to "pick" the ball (e.g. hit ball before any turf).

 

If your hypothesis is true (i.e. "You are supposed to open the face and expose the bounce and engage the turf prior to the ball")  then why would anyone purchase low bounce wedges? 

1. That is incorrect because if it were true then we would have no chance of executing a proper bunker shot.  Hitting a shot off of soggy conditions is no different in any way than hitting a bunker shot.  If the club digs you simply didn't have enough bounce engaged....period.  

 

2. Low bounce wedges have no advantage over higher bounce ones and are pretty useless.  The thought that low bounce wedges are better in firm conditions is wrong because if a low bounce wedge will always be lower than the angle of attack then that means that the leading edge will be presented to the turf and there is no scenario where it advantageous for the wedge to dig into the turf...not one.  It also shouldn't be called bounce....it should be called skid because that is the effect that actually happens when bounce is properly engaged.  Bounce / sole width / camber etc. is an insurance policy on your irons, hybrids, and woods where you are supposed to strike ball the turf, but it is meant to be used on all partial wedge shots to give increased forgiveness and predictability to your partial wedge shots.  

 

There is a big difference between a divot and bruising the turf as you could go pick up a divot whereas using the bounce leaves nothing to go pick up.  For example take a look at the turf after I hit this shot off of tight links turf with the bounce exposed...it just explodes into pieces. This exact same technique of engaging the turf prior to the ball ( to ensure the leading edge gets below the equator of the golf ball) with the bounce exposed is the same technique to be used in wet and soggy conditions and if your wedge digs in those conditions or you feel the need to pick the ball off the turf then you don't have enough bounce or you have a flaw in your technique: 

 

 

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14 hours ago, danthegolfer said:

I know this is a very mainstream opinion right now, but is this true in ALL cases?  I can (and do) do this effectively on a lot of different lies, but if I get into some soft, soggy, muddy dormant bermuda if I don't catch ball it's going nowhere.

It isn't mainstream opinion, it is how the wedge was designed to be used that was being ignored by the previous generation of golfers. When you talk about soft, muddy, etc. conditions those will require a varying amount of speed to hit the ball a given distance so that is more of knowing how the lie is going to effect the shot than the bounce, even though you should still have the bounce engaged on all of those shots. 

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No...that is THE way to chip and pitch and the correct technique was provided by the very designer of the club who hopefully knows the purpose of the clubs they designed. 

Quote

We as amateurs don't have the luxury of using less efficient methods because we are not as talented as touring pros. 

Is this some sort of cult that I'm unaware of? There is more than 1 way to hit a wedge shot...period. We know this because not all players chip/pitch with the same technique. Not all players use the same technique all the time.

 

Quote

It isn't mainstream opinion, it is how the wedge was designed to be used that was being ignored by the previous generation of golfers. When you talk about soft, muddy, etc. conditions those will require a varying amount of speed to hit the ball a given distance so that is more of knowing how the lie is going to effect the shot than the bounce, even though you should still have the bounce engaged on all of those shots. 

 

This is just absolutely false. From an early age, I was instructed to learn to open the face to keep the club from digging. It's "using the bounce" but nobody calls it that. I was also shown how to put the ball of my back foot and hit a bump and run. Both methods are "right" depending on what the player is trying to accomplish.

 

Please stop telling people that they don't know how a wedge is designed, but you do. "The bounce" is the entire sole of the club. There is a front, middle, back. There is a heel, middle, toe. If a player contacts the turf ANYWHERE on the bottom of the club, they have engaged the bounce.

 

You can stand the club up and use the bounce, you can lower the hands and use the bounce. You can have the shaft vertical and use the bounce. You can lean the shaft, open the face and use the bounce. You can lean the shaft backwards, keep the face square, and use the bounce. You can lean the shaft back, open the face, and use the bounce. It's not a cult - everyone hits short game shots and uses the bottom of the club to interact with the turf. 

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16 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

3. Grind options make golfers think they need more wedges than they actually do when altering how much bounce is used on a max bounce wedge would work just fine. Most don't even use wedges as they are prescribed to be used in the first place so the bounce is pointless unless there is a ton of leading edge bounce or camber which most wedges do not have because they are not designed to be struck ball then turf like all other shots being hit off the ground are. You are supposed to engage/"thump" the turf prior to striking the ball and most of the golfing public are simply not aware of this.  

Which is why I've carried three 58s with 6, 8, and 12 degrees of bounce to experiment with tough lies.  When the weather gets really bad I have the course to myself.

Bounce works great when I have turf under the ball.  Golf is easy if you can hit fairways and greens.

Thumping mud doesn't work for me.

 

I've had bunker lies where thinning the ball will shoot the ball out of the bunker, as there is no sand to slow down the ball!  Bouncing the ball off the wall of the bunker into the air.

Much better than hitting the ball fat and leaving the ball in the bunker.

 

Mentally, I think of engaging the bounce as deliberately touching the turf before the ball.

There are times when I prefer to take my chances hitting the ball first.  Not engaging the bounce.  It's my club and my decision how to use it!

 

Thumping may work for some.  Sweeping the ball works better for me.  But, my perception and what actually happens may be different.

In the end, what counts is my ball sitting on the green with just one stroke from a bad lie.

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15 hours ago, Glock917 said:

Not true I dont skull the ball. If you have control of your low point you should just brush the grass and clip the ball like any other chip. Also you can generate plenty of spin. 

 

You can see from my trackman of doing this is creates plenty of spin with low smash negative AoA and low point way ahead of the ball 

image.png.ac267b5a73530e1e7fdcd8613ba8e339.png

 

I never said I tried to pick the ball WHEN it should be more like a bunker shot. Please do not put false words to argue your sakes. You're being one sided saying only your way is right. YOU YOU YOU. 

I have been saying there is more than one way to do things successfully. 

 

You would create upwards of 10k spin with the proper technique and also you will struggle to stop the ball with your land angle being so shallow and the fact that the ball only got 13 feet off the ground though you did a great job of slowing the ball speed to help the ball stop as soon as possible. So yes you are playing the shot, but you are not playing it MOST efficiently and that is all I'm saying.  

 

Here is a video of my Son as a rank beginner hitting the ball as high as you are from half the distance using the proper technique:  HIs shots land on the green dead just like you want and he can easily take less loft and keep his technique the same and hit the exact same shot that your numbers reflect:  

 

 

There is no argument as to the most efficient way to use a wedge regardless of how many pros do it a different way and that was the biggest thing that I learned when I switched from playing "Righty to Lefty" when I said that I am not going to waste my time and was going to figure out the most efficient way to play the game and then work from there. I never said that leading edge chipping and pitching has no merit, I stated that it isn't the most efficient way to hit the shots and that we as amateurs should start from the most efficient way to play the shot an only six months to do it lefty because I focused on the most efficient methods when I switched to lefty and stuck with it until it became normalized. The fact that I can teach the method to my Son who is a rank beginner in 5 hours is a testament to that fact that the proper method isn't even that hard and I wish I had taken some video of the day we were out there hitting the very same shots in the rain because the results were the exact same as what he was demonstrating in the video and this is validation because he knows no better than to do exactly what he was already doing because he knows no other way to play the shot.

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1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

There are plenty of ways to chip and pitch the ball, but there is only one most efficient way and for you to note that pros use a less efficient way as proof that you just want to be right instead of admitting that you simply choose to use a less efficient method. 

 

We as amateurs don't have the luxury of using less efficient methods because we are not as talented as touring pros.  That is also why I don't advocate hitting down on driver, even though many male pros hit down on driver and get away with it. It isn't wrong, but it isn't the most efficient method.  

 

That is your view with your skill level. Stop being so narrow minded thinking your word is absolute. 

 

Chipping and pitching comes down to low point control. You choose your method based on how you control is given your lie and situation. I have never advocated one way or another cause for any given shot I can use both or even something else. You are just being a narcissist saying its only your way or the highway.

 

Saying that pros use the least efficient method is just comical honestly considering what separates pros is the ability to consistently have the position of the club to deliver it to the ball the most efficient way. 

 

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The thought that low bounce wedges are better in firm conditions is wrong because if a low bounce wedge will always be lower than the angle of attack then that means that the leading edge will be presented to the turf and there is no scenario where it advantageous for the wedge to dig into the turf...not one. 

 

Again such a narrow minded view. There are many. One is off a hard pan lie. If you use a higher bounce wedge the leading edge can never get under it cause if you try to use the sole first it will just bounce off and you will hit a skull helmet shot.

 

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5 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You would create upwards of 10k spin with the proper technique and also you will struggle to stop the ball with your land angle being so shallow and the fact that the ball only got 13 feet off the ground though you did a great job of slowing the ball speed to help the ball stop as soon as possible. So yes you are playing the shot, but you are not playing it MOST efficiently and that is all I'm saying.

 

That was a random shot I chose. Its a low spinner chip I like playing. If i wanted to get it higher i can but actually like playing it lower. 

 

So you think you can generate 10k spin on a 25 yard normal stock chip? Id really like to see that without trying to manipulate the shot. Think you overstepped your boundaries on that one. 

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59 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

Is this some sort of cult that I'm unaware of? There is more than 1 way to hit a wedge shot...period. We know this because not all players chip/pitch with the same technique. Not all players use the same technique all the time.

 

 

This is just absolutely false. From an early age, I was instructed to learn to open the face to keep the club from digging. It's "using the bounce" but nobody calls it that. I was also shown how to put the ball of my back foot and hit a bump and run. Both methods are "right" depending on what the player is trying to accomplish.

 

Please stop telling people that they don't know how a wedge is designed, but you do. "The bounce" is the entire sole of the club. There is a front, middle, back. There is a heel, middle, toe. If a player contacts the turf ANYWHERE on the bottom of the club, they have engaged the bounce.

 

You can stand the club up and use the bounce, you can lower the hands and use the bounce. You can have the shaft vertical and use the bounce. You can lean the shaft, open the face and use the bounce. You can lean the shaft backwards, keep the face square, and use the bounce. You can lean the shaft back, open the face, and use the bounce. It's not a cult - everyone hits short game shots and uses the bottom of the club to interact with the turf. 

Once again I didn't say anyone was WRONG....I stated that it isn't the most EFFICIENT way to play a partial wedge shot.  That didn't come from me...that came from the very designer of the club himself but you seem to want to call him wrong also.  Your descriptions are also incorrect as the bounce is not necessarily used in any of those situations and the only way the bounce is engaged and used (not accounting for leading edge bounce which most wedges don't have much of) is if the TRAILING edge of the club engages the turf which keeps the LEADING edge from being exposed to the turf and enables the club to skid along the surface of the turf....period.  

 

What would be the most effective thing for you to do would be to go and test it and come back with your findings.  You should also video yourself going through the process as that is why I have so many videos on call and that is because I went out and tested things and came back with my findings.  If you don't use the bounce on partial wedge shots, you should in 99.9% of your wedge shots and I assure you that your game will improve in comparison to leading edge chipping and pitching.  I met a skeptical +3 handicap a few months ago and that was the first thing he mentioned was about using the bounce.  A few mins later I had him hitting pitch shots up his left nostril and he has never looked back.  Stop me when I'm lying @cav5

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7 minutes ago, Glock917 said:

 

That was a random shot I chose. Its a low spinner chip I like playing. If i wanted to get it higher i can but actually like playing it lower. 

 

So you think you can generate 10k spin on a 25 yard normal stock chip? Id really like to see that without trying to manipulate the shot. Think you overstepped your boundaries on that one. 

Correction I was getting 10k spin from 90 yards and 8500 rpm 50 yards but I am using a 65 degree wedge so you are correct on that one but I get hit stick stop with my 65* from 25 yards easily and I am not sure what you mean by not trying to manipulate the shot as every partial wedge shot has some type of manipulation to the shot because none of them are full shots.  So sure to get hit, stick, stop I open the face, set the shaft vertical, and have little to no grip pressure so that I can inject much more speed into the shot thus it comes out flat with a ton of spin.  That is not manipulation in my opinion, that is called playing the shot. 

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13 minutes ago, Glock917 said:

You are just being a narcissist saying its only your way or the highway.

Quote

is if the TRAILING edge of the club engages the turf which keeps the LEADING edge from being exposed to the turf and enables the club to skid along the surface of the turf....period. 

Quote

I met a skeptical +3 handicap a few months ago and that was the first thing he mentioned was about using the bounce.  A few mins later I had him hitting pitch shots up his left nostril and he has never looked back.  Stop me when I'm lying

Nobody is arguing that what you are saying is incorrect. What people are trying to (respectfully) point out is that you are not the gatekeeper of knowledge, and that there is only one true way to play a wedge shot. If you are on this forum long enough, you will see trends come and go. They are all great, but what tends to happen is that a method becomes so popular that it becomes a cult. "Using the bounce" has become that, not because it's not a great way...is that people start making it the ONLY way.

 

The golf swing trends are extremely guilty of this. When Stack and Tilt hit the forums in 2008/2009, holy crap was that a dumpster fire. S&T is a great method, but the cult members used strawman arguments to tear apart the "conventional" golf swing. What killed the S&T methods is that when you don't properly give credibility to alternative methods, your arguments lack any type of legitimacy. Ironically, S&T had close ties to the Golfing Machine, which states there is no "the way" but "many ways" to swing a golf club.

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28 minutes ago, Glock917 said:

 

 

That is your view with your skill level. Stop being so narrow minded thinking your word is absolute. 

 

Chipping and pitching comes down to low point control. You choose your method based on how you control is given your lie and situation. I have never advocated one way or another cause for any given shot I can use both or even something else. You are just being a narcissist saying its only your way or the highway.

 

Saying that pros use the least efficient method is just comical honestly considering what separates pros is the ability to consistently have the position of the club to deliver it to the ball the most efficient way. 

 

 

Again such a narrow minded view. There are many. One is off a hard pan lie. If you use a higher bounce wedge the leading edge can never get under it cause if you try to use the sole first it will just bounce off and you will hit a skull helmet shot.

 

Sure you can get the leading edge under the ball. I will play my C3i wedge off a cart path easily as all you have to do is hit the path behind the ball and the club will skid along the path and clip the ball off it.  Sure you can't fully open the face up and hit a true flop shot off a cart path but the shot will come off with a flat flight and a ton of spin.  

 

Narrow minded...so most male pros hit down on driver...so is that the most efficient way to hit driver because the pros do it...absolutely not as LPGA golfers are much more efficient hitting up on driver?  You will NEVER see a long driver hit down on driver...why is that...because it is not the most efficient way to hit the driver.  Just because the pros do it doesn't mean that it is the best method.  

 

Matter of fact I just made this video a minute ago hitting a ball off of a tile floor with an open club face to prove you will not skull the shot, you just need to know how to play the shot: 

 

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In the video I posted that demonstrates hitting a ball off a tight lie while still using the bounce thus demonstrating that so long as you get the leading edge below the equator of the ball the shot will come off just fine even while using the bounce so the previous assertions that using bounce will result in skulled shots off of tight lies is false.  

 

58 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

Nobody is arguing that what you are saying is incorrect. What people are trying to (respectfully) point out is that you are not the gatekeeper of knowledge, and that there is only one true way to play a wedge shot. If you are on this forum long enough, you will see trends come and go. They are all great, but what tends to happen is that a method becomes so popular that it becomes a cult. "Using the bounce" has become that, not because it's not a great way...is that people start making it the ONLY way.

 

The golf swing trends are extremely guilty of this. When Stack and Tilt hit the forums in 2008/2009, holy crap was that a dumpster fire. S&T is a great method, but the cult members used strawman arguments to tear apart the "conventional" golf swing. What killed the S&T methods is that when you don't properly give credibility to alternative methods, your arguments lack any type of legitimacy. Ironically, S&T had close ties to the Golfing Machine, which states there is no "the way" but "many ways" to swing a golf club.

Using the club as it was designed is not a trend...it was being ignored previously and that is why I put the video of Mr. Vokey explaining how to properly use the equipment that he designed but you seem to gloss over that information.  It was mentioned that many don't have enough bounce and that you are supposed to thump the turf with the trailing edge just like you would on a bunker shot and how it was a revelation to the guy in the video because how much more spin and efficiency was created by using the proper method but sure...lets promote to amateurs to use leading edge chipping and pitching first when it is a less efficient method. That makes no sense at all just like telling a golfer to hit down on driver when we know there is a more efficient way and amateur golfers simply cannot afford to give up efficiency in any case.  

Edited by Righty to Lefty
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3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That is incorrect because if it were true then we would have no chance of executing a proper bunker shot.  Hitting a shot off of soggy conditions is no different in any way than hitting a bunker shot.  If the club digs you simply didn't have enough bounce engaged....period.  

 

So if I'm understanding correctly, are you suggesting that I play a soft/muddy lie the same way I play a bunker shot? (almost like an explosion shot where I am hitting ground like an inch behind the ball?) 

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10 minutes ago, danthegolfer said:

 

So if I'm understanding correctly, are you suggesting that I play a soft/muddy lie the same way I play a bunker shot? (almost like an explosion shot where I am hitting ground like an inch behind the ball?) 

Yes you 100% should be. In fact the shot is NO different than a standard fairway shot. This why more people should just listen to RL. Most people can't handle different shots throughout the course because their main one is just an efficient competency that doesn't translate

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3 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

 

I think the guys on tour seem to have "optimized" at a practical level. There's outliers, but more than half of the tour WITB's I see have a F/S grind sand wedge, T/M/D in lob wedge. full sole combined with a crescent grind seems to give players the tools they need in order to be a shot maker. A full set of crescent grind wedges is impractical because they all do the same thing. A set of full sole wedges through the LW is equally impractical because at some point, every decent player will have to open the face and hit a lob shot. It's just required to shoot low scores on tough golf courses.

 

So on one hand fitting is important to find a diverse toolset that allows a golfer to play any shot they may need on the course. But on the other hand, it's a tad overrated because everyone kind of needs the same thing - a diverse toolset of wedges...jack of all trades, master of none.

 

This is how I feel as well, and it's what I am trying to replicate for my own bag & skillset.  One area I struggle, quite honestly, is to even understand how the different grinds actually work and what their intended uses are.  I have, of course, read descriptions on manufacturer websites and etc. but haven't really found anything that's clicked with me.  Could you share some examples of a crescent grind vs full sole (and the intended uses)?  Is it more likely that high bounce wedges will have full sole, or are bounce & grind options generally independent?  

Here are my current wedges that I own... I have of course tinkered with all of these, but would absolutely love to get some thoughts on the similarities, differences of these and what are (and what are NOT) the intended uses:

  • Cleveland RTX6 Zipcore - 52/10/mid
  • Mizuno T22 - 54/12/S
  • Callaway JAWS MD5 - 56/12/W
  • Vokey SM9 - 56/14/F
  • Callaway MD4 - 60/10/S

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1 minute ago, danthegolfer said:

 

This is how I feel as well, and it's what I am trying to replicate for my own bag & skillset.  One area I struggle, quite honestly, is to even understand how the different grinds actually work and what their intended uses are.  I have, of course, read descriptions on manufacturer websites and etc. but haven't really found anything that's clicked with me.  Could you share some examples of a crescent grind vs full sole (and the intended uses)?  Is it more likely that high bounce wedges will have full sole, or are bounce & grind options generally independent?  

Here are my current wedges that I own... I have of course tinkered with all of these, but would absolutely love to get some thoughts on the similarities, differences of these and what are (and what are NOT) the intended uses:

  • Cleveland RTX6 Zipcore - 52/10/mid
  • Mizuno T22 - 54/12/S
  • Callaway JAWS MD5 - 56/12/W
  • Vokey SM9 - 56/14/F
  • Callaway MD4 - 60/10/S

Most of this grind nonsense is just tour players who like to have the face set a certain way and then ground to a leading edge height preference they like and sold to us. If you like vokey get SW in F and LW in D or K.

 

I have seen @Righty to Lefty hit 10 yard shots 15 feet in the air with the bounce pointed at the middle of the ball.

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41 minutes ago, danthegolfer said:

 

So if I'm understanding correctly, are you suggesting that I play a soft/muddy lie the same way I play a bunker shot? (almost like an explosion shot where I am hitting ground like an inch behind the ball?) 

Yes...please go try it and come back with your findings.  If you need more guidance I will make a video on the spot demonstrating and explaining the technique.  You might need to engage the turf more than an inch behind the ball but if you film yourself I from a face on and down the line view I will be able to help you figure out how far behind the ball you need to engage the turf.

 

Your eyes will be wide open the second that you execute the shot as it should be I assure you and I will never forget the look on my Son...and @cav5 face when they executed the shot correctly for the first time and were off any running.  I am not making this up.  I have lived it both right and left handed with very different results in regards to how fast I improved.  I welcome your questions and will answer every single one of them I assure you as I encourage you to go out and test what I post.  If I were in front of you I would have you hitting the shot within a few mins because impact is the same for everyone.  

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@danthegolfer notice how far my Son has the club set behind the ball from a face on view.  He is also addressing the ball off the hosel and I can explain why later if you don't exactly know why that need to happen but all of these set up cues allow him to use his natural swing motion to execute the shot without thought: 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, danthegolfer said:

 

This is how I feel as well, and it's what I am trying to replicate for my own bag & skillset.  One area I struggle, quite honestly, is to even understand how the different grinds actually work and what their intended uses are.  I have, of course, read descriptions on manufacturer websites and etc. but haven't really found anything that's clicked with me.  Could you share some examples of a crescent grind vs full sole (and the intended uses)?  Is it more likely that high bounce wedges will have full sole, or are bounce & grind options generally independent?  

Here are my current wedges that I own... I have of course tinkered with all of these, but would absolutely love to get some thoughts on the similarities, differences of these and what are (and what are NOT) the intended uses:

  • Cleveland RTX6 Zipcore - 52/10/mid - This is an "S" Grind, which is trailing edge relief. It's slightly narrower than a full sole wedge, and will go slightly higher on square faced pitches/chips.
  • Mizuno T22 - 54/12/S - Also an "S" Grind
  • Callaway JAWS MD5 - 56/12/W Full sole, high bounce, wide sole, very forgiving. Great for bunkers.
  • Vokey SM9 - 56/14/F - Full sole, standard width. Great when face is square/slightly open. More versatile than the 12W above, but similar.
  • Callaway MD4 - 60/10/S - Also an "S" Grind

See above, these are all similar wedges and are all meant to be played square/slightly open. These are all versatile wedges. 

 

Could you share some examples of a crescent grind vs full sole (and the intended uses)? 

Vokey M or D grind, Callaway C grind, Cleveland Low bounce grind. These have heel/toe relief. When the face gets very open to play lofted shots, the grind allows the leading edge to stay lower. This will result in a higher flight as compared to an S/F grind with a similar technique. That's why crescent grinds are very popular in lob wedges, and S/F grinds are more popular in sand wedges. Crescent grinds can be of help when hitting lob shots. The D grind is a great grind because it maintains a higher/more forgiving bounce rating, but also has heel/toe relief for shot making around the green. This is my suggestion if you are looking to demo a crescent grind type of wedge. 

LTDx LS 11.5* - Tensei White 65X

G430 Max 15* - Ping Chrome 75S

King Tec Hybrid 19* - MMT 80S

T150 4-PW - PX 6.5

SM8 50F, 54S, 60M

White Hot OG 7CH

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I struggled for a long time trying to play low bounce wedges because thats what Tiger used. Once I decided to try high bounce options it changed my game alot. I've never done a wedge fitting, I prefer to try them on courses I play not some place I never play or even worse, off mats. I wouldn't be opposed to doing one but I just don't think it could be the be-all-end-all to find the perfect wedge.
You'll know pretty quickly if a wedge is working for you when you take it to places you are familiar with.
 

Edited by ballzo
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Titleist TSr3 8* Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 6
Titleist TSr3 15* Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 7
Sonartec MD 19* Fujikura Banzai
MacGregor Pro-M 4-P S300
MacGregor MT-Pro 52.6*, 56.12*, 58.10 bent to 59*
Scotty Cameron California Series Del Mar
 

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2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Sure you can get the leading edge under the ball. I will play my C3i wedge off a cart path easily as all you have to do is hit the path behind the ball and the club will skid along the path and clip the ball off it.  Sure you can't fully open the face up and hit a true flop shot off a cart path but the shot will come off with a flat flight and a ton of spin.  

 

Yeah I can hit low spinny lasers off the cart path with my gap wedge too haha. But you cant hit a flop off it. Why? Cause the back sole gets in the way and the only way to make contact is to lean the shaft to get that leading edge under the ball which obviously delofts it coming out low. 

Btw you hitting off a cart path or tile floor is using the leading edge to hit. You might want to feel like you're hitting behind it but you're not cause if you truly hit the sole first before the ball it will kick up and you will middle helmet that shot. Those shots are leading edge chips where you cant rely on the ground to give you any space for the bounce to work the way its supposed to. 

You didnt thump the turf like you've been preaching as the holy grail. Why? Cause it will bounce off the ground and blade it so you have to essentially clip it. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

so is that the most efficient way to hit driver because the pros do it...absolutely not as LPGA golfers are much more efficient hitting up on driver?  You will NEVER see a long driver hit down on driver...why is that...because it is not the most efficient way to hit the driver.  Just because the pros do it doesn't mean that it is the best method. 

 

When the goal is to hit a tight firm fast fairway there are times hitting a teed low squeezer is the most efficient for that goal. Its called hitting a golf shot. Is it the best and efficient way to optimize distance? Oh god no that the worst thing you can do but that is not the goal of the shot. 

Comparing LPGA and PGA swing dynamics is a futile point really. When there is >30mph ball speed difference the difference in misses of the same degree are magnified greatly. Pretty poor comp imo

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19 hours ago, Glock917 said:

 

Yeah I can hit low spinny lasers off the cart path with my gap wedge too haha. But you cant hit a flop off it. Why? Cause the back sole gets in the way and the only way to make contact is to lean the shaft to get that leading edge under the ball which obviously delofts it coming out low. 

Btw you hitting off a cart path or tile floor is using the leading edge to hit. You might want to feel like you're hitting behind it but you're not cause if you truly hit the sole first before the ball it will kick up and you will middle helmet that shot. Those shots are leading edge chips where you cant rely on the ground to give you any space for the bounce to work the way its supposed to. 

You didnt thump the turf like you've been preaching as the holy grail. Why? Cause it will bounce off the ground and blade it so you have to essentially clip it. 

 

 

 

When the goal is to hit a tight firm fast fairway there are times hitting a teed low squeezer is the most efficient for that goal. Its called hitting a golf shot. Is it the best and efficient way to optimize distance? Oh god no that the worst thing you can do but that is not the goal of the shot. 

Comparing LPGA and PGA swing dynamics is a futile point really. When there is >30mph ball speed difference the difference in misses of the same degree are magnified greatly. Pretty poor comp imo

No wedge is designed to hit a flop shot off a tight lie because to hit a flop shot requires that you hit the ball higher up on the face which a tight lie will not allow to happen and no matter what kind of wedge you use the contact will still be too low on the face to execute a flop shot and that why shots hit off a cart path will spin a lot and also come out lower. The trailing edge doesn't get in the way as you suggested, the sole is not allowed to slide underneath the ball which is required to hit a flop shot. 

 

You are also incorrect in that I was using the leading edge to hit the shot because the moment that I opened the face the bounce was engaged. I clearly set the club square to target line, and then opened the face to demonstrate that I was using the trailing edge. The click you hear is not the leading edge striking the ground, it is the trailing edge, and I have very little forward shaft lean as it is set vertical. I would be glad to take a video from a face on view to show you that all your assertions are incorrect. 

 

I am also using a C3i wedge that has way more bounce than any other "high" bounce wedge on the market and I assure you that if you use the proper technique that the club will not "bounce" into the ball so long as your "thump" the turf prior to striking the ball and keep your body turning through the shot as Vokey mentioned in his video as that will ensure that the leading edge gets below the ball, and so long as that happens a skulled shot CANNOT occur.  I hate that it is even called bounce in the first place because that is not what happens, the club is made to skid along the surface of the turf instead of dig into it. I make no attempt to "pick" any shot off the turf and hit down on a spot behind the ball with the same intent as a bunker shot no matter lie because that is the correct technique even though the softer lie will require more speed than the tighter one thus the same analysis of the lie will need to be taken into account just like the decision made when entering a bunker.  

 

Finally your attempt to gloss over the fact that LPGA females hitting up on driver are more efficient than their male counterparts hitting down on driver is another attempt to just try to make yourself be right instead of admitting that there is a more efficient route and a less efficient one.  It doesn't matter that the males swing faster, that wasn't the point, the point is that the females are more efficient with the speed that they produce than the men are across the board because they hit up on driver and are using the most efficient method. If the females where swinging at the same speed as the men, they would hit it further because they are more efficient...period...and there is no debate to be had on that subject as it is stating fact.   

 

 

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On 11/28/2023 at 11:11 AM, cgasucks said:

Me personally as my wedge game got better it doesn't matter as I come to the ball much more shallower with forward shaft lean.  I actually practice with a stock PW for all of my short game shots (pitch, chip, bunker, and even flop) in all types of lies, especially bare hardpan lies where I'm tested the most).  But if someone stuck a gun to my head and choose between a high bounce wedge and a low bounce wedge, I'd choose the high bounce (just in case my short game isn't optimal).

Do you mean shallower with less forward shaft lean? You want the shaft to come into the shot more vertical than a typical shot so that the ball speed is reduced and the shots come off more soft and floaty, yet allow you to use more swing speed giving you extra spin. 

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52 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Do you mean shallower with less forward shaft lean? You want the shaft to come into the shot more vertical than a typical shot so that the ball speed is reduced and the shots come off more soft and floaty, yet allow you to use more swing speed giving you extra spin. 

 

Well definitely more shallower.  If you open the face of any wedge you'll see that your hands are more closer to the leading edge of the clubface so in a way, it has less forward shaft lean at impact but not by choice, but by design.  I always release the clubhead as fast as I can at my downswing regardless.

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10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft (Stiff flex)
Titleist 990 (3-PW) with stock Dynamic Gold in S300
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts (Regular Flex)
2011 Adams Tom Watson signature wedges in 52 and 56 degrees with stock steel shafts (Player's Grind)
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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4 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

 

Well definitely more shallower.  If you open the face of any wedge you'll see that your hands are more closer to the leading edge of the clubface so in a way, it has less forward shaft lean at impact but not by choice, but by design.  I always release the clubhead as fast as I can at my downswing regardless.

Just wanted to clarify...that makes sense. 

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1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

No wedge is designed to hit a flop shot off a tight lie because to hit a flop shot requires that you hit the ball higher up on the face which a tight lie will not allow to happen and no matter what kind of wedge you use

 

Just because you cannot pull it off don't discount that it cannot happen based on design.

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

It doesn't matter that the males swing faster

It does matter. Higher speeds cause more deviations in equipment forces on impact and dispersion in misses.

 

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If the females where swinging at the same speed as the men

But they don't. That is circumstantial..... PERIOD. (that's taken from how you like to discuss topics)

 

You talk like you some kind of messiah of Bobby Jones coming out of the garbage alley of Amen corner holding some holy scripture saying it must be done this way or else and no other ways methods and equipment shall not be used or be forever stricken.

 

I dont know your handicap nor do I care. There are plenty of people here who are better but you prob place yourself as a superior being or all things short game and the second coming Seve or the like. 

 

This is a community of bilateral opinion jargon and feedback not some @ss just parodying his stricken beliefs as concrete and it's my way and my way only. 

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