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Controlling low point and dynamic loft - AKA the hunt for active wrists


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By way of introduction - I’m a golf obsessive and have the last couple of seasons become more and more determined to figure out how to get my full swing mechanics in order to give me control over my low point and dynamic loft.

 

Having picked up the game as an adult, I have progressed from hard over the top slices to right tilting/hanging back hooks. 
 

I have sought and received lots of quality instruction remotely over the past years but feel like it would be an interesting experience to start a thread here to discuss my thoughts and work on my mechanics and my chase for decent ball striking.

 

I’m attaching a DTL and front view swing with an 8 iron from today. Main focuses today was keeping the wrists passive on the takeaway (to fend off picking the hands up as well as going radial), loading the trail hip on the backswing and lowering the arms and clubs with a closed torso in transition.

 

Long term, I’m hoping to figure out proper lower body mechanics to allow for a correct weight and pressure shift.

 

 

Edited by mwiklund
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Losing some hip depth in the downswing (my line maybe not 100% correct). Standing up. First hip move in the downswing for a pro is keeping right hip still but pushing left hip back and then turn. 

Also think your grip is pretty weak, at least your right hand but maybe there is a valid reason for that.

also noticed a little handsy release through impact.

but lots of good stuff in there as well.

IMG_6833.jpeg

IMG_6834.jpeg

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Lack of wrist hinge is doing you no favors and causes excess lead arm bend (a little is fine, of course). If you're worried about going radial, bend your trail wrist back. Free up your hip turn a little so you can get to your trail heel and give yourself more time and a longer backswing, more arm depth. Lack of hip depth is also probably putting your weight over your trail foot's balls or toes, which is going to make it tough to stay in balance without moving the trail hip towards the ball on the downswing. 

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13 hours ago, mizunotpz said:

Losing some hip depth in the downswing (my line maybe not 100% correct). Standing up. First hip move in the downswing for a pro is keeping right hip still but pushing left hip back and then turn. 

 

Also think your grip is pretty weak, at least your right hand but maybe there is a valid reason for that.

also noticed a little handsy release through impact.

but lots of good stuff in there as well.

 

 

 

Many thanks for chiming in! I'm well aware that my lower body action deviates from the pro move spectrum. What I am struggling to figure out is the why I deviate and how I shift the movement around to achieve the correct structure/kinematic and moves/kinetics. That being said, I clearly see a benefit in improving my movement pattern in this regards as it would likely set me up for better impact dynamics over time. 

 

As for the right hand positioning, it currently "is what it is" and see no reason to tinker if there is no apparent reason to do it.

 

12 hours ago, Scottbox said:

Lack of wrist hinge is doing you no favors and causes excess lead arm bend (a little is fine, of course). If you're worried about going radial, bend your trail wrist back. Free up your hip turn a little so you can get to your trail heel and give yourself more time and a longer backswing, more arm depth. Lack of hip depth is also probably putting your weight over your trail foot's balls or toes, which is going to make it tough to stay in balance without moving the trail hip towards the ball on the downswing. 

 

Wrist hinge and in particular trail wrist dorsiflexion is a concept that I have been exploring on an on and off again basis over the past year. I did a series of lessons with Scott Cowx last fall starting off with me asking questions about wrist angles and loading. I also did a lot of work with my Hackmotion a while ago but have shifted over to looking closer at the overall body movement. I do however see that more wrist set could be beneficial and will experiment with loading from P2-P3 (early wrist loading is a no-no for me as it really messes with how I move the club).

 

As for freeing up the hip turn, that has also been an issue for me previously as I had an exaggerated slide right and a flat overturned trail hip and all weight in the heel (the toes actually came off the ground) which did create a lot more hand depth but to a fault as I got very stuck in transition. 

 

This more restricted move is my way of moving closer to a functional range (and is one of the pieces I'm adressing during my current remote lessons). There is probably a sweet spot between the restricted move and the overturn, but I struggle to find it.

 

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25 minutes ago, mizunotpz said:

Try rising up your head a little. Its hindering your turn in the backswing. No not saying head needs to stay still but its like you hold your head in a position where you "watch" the backswing and I know Monte have talked about that leading to issues.

 

OK so the "what" would be rising my head like extending my neck?

 

I appreciate you taking the time to comment but please be mindful that I have at least a hundred pet peeves with my swing and that I need to identify the pieces which actually make a difference. That means having a reason to change and a clear upside to spend time and attention to it. A general observation that it may cause issues is not enough to warrant spending time on it. In what way do you expect that "rising up my head" would improve my overall movement or shift the impact conditions? 

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42 minutes ago, mwiklund said:

OK so the "what" would be rising my head like extending my neck?

 

I appreciate you taking the time to comment but please be mindful that I have at least a hundred pet peeves with my swing and that I need to identify the pieces which actually make a difference. That means having a reason to change and a clear upside to spend time and attention to it. A general observation that it may cause issues is not enough to warrant spending time on it. In what way do you expect that "rising up my head" would improve my overall movement or shift the impact conditions? 

You dont have a hundred things to fix. What Im not seeing is fluidness. It looks like you move the club from position to position instead of just trying to be more athletic in your swing. Its not a bad move but if you watch your hands through impact it looks more like steering the club than swinging it. I would deffo get that chin up.

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So, questions about "low-point" and "dynamic loft" huh? 

 

Join the club - and please recognize that I'm a random idiot on the internet. 

 

But, if that is your topic, it leads me to believe you are struggling with ball striking? Hitting thin or fat shots on the course? Mixture of both? 

 

Do you find thin shots are typically heeled, ineffectual, and going right? Fat shots ending up toed and frustratingly left?

 

It's always so hard to tell from indoor mat swings... but:

 

Overall, it seems like you are in the ballpark here. Your swing and positions aren't looking completely off. Well within the "Cone of Competency."

 

But, I'd say you are tying to hit the ball off of your back hip too much. Contact comes earlier than that.

 

A focus on posture maintenance and upper body impact position should help get your hands into a better place. You may need to work on hip movements a bit to make this change possible.  

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With all due respect, I'm not sure that you're asking for our help so much as our participation in a debate, so that you can reaffirm what you consider to be your masterful knowledge of the golf swing. It's disingenuous on yiour part, and a waste of our time. If you want help, ask for our help. If you want to engage in some keyboard-jockey argument, then at least be up front about it. 

Edited by Scottbox
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10 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

With all due respect, I'm not sure that you're asking for our help so much as our participation in a debate, so that you can reaffirm what you consider to be your masterful knowledge of the golf swing. It's disingenuous on yiour part, and a waste of our time. If you want help, ask for our help. If you want to engage in some keyboard-jockey argument, then at least be up front about it. 

 

Sorry if I came off as abrasive - I really appreciate all of you taking time to watch my swings and writing comments. I am in no way looking to reaffirm anything but am simply asking for more than general swing tips and at first glance observations.

 

I am clearly open to suggestions and discussion - otherwise I would have not posted here. I have not dismissed any suggestions outright and am simply asking for more context and have described my own personal experiences when trying general cues as the ones suggested so far. 

 

Put it this way - which moves am I making that makes it difficult for me to (1) keep the low point well after the ball and (2) lowering dynamic loft to better compress the ball? 

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58 minutes ago, mwiklund said:

Also, as a show of good faith I will make a sincere attempt at trying the cues that makes sense to me (pressure under trail heel and more wrist set) and see what shakes out.

I think this is part of your problem. You think you know so much about the golfswing that you become skeptic against all the advice that isnt what you wanted to hear. The best thing for you would be to find a coach you really trust and look up to and let him fix you without you second guessing him. Like working for him under a whole season. Sorry for being blunt but it sounds like you need it!

keeping your head up to free up rotation and keeping hip depth isnt general advice. Its an issue for you.

Edited by mizunotpz
Er
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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, mizunotpz said:

I think this is part of your problem. You think you know so much about the golfswing that you become skeptic against all the advice that isnt what you wanted to hear. The best thing for you would be to find a coach you really trust and look up to and let him fix you without you second guessing him. Like working for him under a whole season. Sorry for being blunt but it sounds like you need it!

keeping your head up to free up rotation and keeping hip depth isnt general advice. Its an issue for you.

 

I appreciate the advice about finding a coach I really trust and see where it comes from. Generally, I really try to stay with coaches for extended periods and have only switched around due to availability issues - i.e. coaches getting fully booked. 

 

Keeping hip depth and doing so properly is and has been very high on my agenda for the past year or so and is very much so with my present coach. The reason for debating the suggestion above is due to my frustration in creating it. I.e. the more specific "how". If it were simply a matter of doing it, I would already be doing it. It's not a matter of confirmation bias but rather seeking more thorough comments and help in achieving the changes. Pressure under trail heel is (to me) more specific and actionable in relation to creating the suggested and desired change (and also at least not contradictory to what my coach is recommending that I work towards). 

 

As for the chin up cue - do you mean that I should set up with a more raised chin? Or do you mean that I should actually raise my chin on the back swing? When reviewing the DTL swing, I cannot see that there is any large flexion of the neck (but I might be missing something that you are picking up on). 

 

I have noted that my head/chin is blocking my lead shoulder and have had periods where I have swiveled the eyes off the ball as a result. My latest reasoning as to addressing it has been that it was more a question of staying in posture better, allowing the lead shoulder to move more down (instead of going the chin up-way). However, happy to play around and see what comes of it.  

Edited by mwiklund
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3 hours ago, mwiklund said:

Put it this way - which moves am I making that makes it difficult for me to (1) keep the low point well after the ball and (2) lowering dynamic loft to better compress the ball? 

 

I hate to be pedantic dude, but you did ask for specifics... in a nutshell, the answer is this:

 

image.png.62c46a7af447578597386fa89737c047.png\\

 

For point of reference, I ask you, how many tour pros look like this at the top of their backswing?

 

Focusing on how you "compress the ball" isn't going to help you a bit. 

 

Once you improve your overall swing - which will be about 3-5 steps after correcting this backswing position, you will effect good impact positions and ball compression as a matter of course. 

 

Trying to "will" these things into existence is a fool's errand. 

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26 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

I hate to be pedantic dude, but you did ask for specifics... in a nutshell, the answer is this:

 

image.png.62c46a7af447578597386fa89737c047.png\\

 

For point of reference, I ask you, how many tour pros look like this at the top of their backswing?

 

Focusing on how you "compress the ball" isn't going to help you a bit. 

 

Once you improve your overall swing - which will be about 3-5 steps after correcting this backswing position, you will effect good impact positions and ball compression as a matter of course. 

 

Trying to "will" these things into existence is a fool's errand. 


What do you suggest correcting in the backswing position?

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30 minutes ago, mwiklund said:


What do you suggest correcting in the backswing position?

 

I would suggest that it look more like this:

 

image.png.a880a801cc1c307cfd4a735ec1977d37.png

 

Notice any differences in head position. Clubhead/shaft position? Upper body position? Hip position? Knee position? Weight distribution? All of these things?

 

I mean the differences are "subtle" (perhaps) in all of those areas, but they add up to two things that look radically different - i.e. your top-of-backswing position and Adam Scott's.

 

I'm not the person to tell you how to make one into the other. That's a journey that will be unique to you. A good, licensed, PGA teaching pro may be able to help you along the way. 

 

If you want to work on your own - the 9 to 3 drill and Jim Waldron's Arm Swing Illusion are always good places to start. 

 

Consistent, quality contact is going to be built from the ground up. Just one moron's opinion. 

Edited by jholz

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1 hour ago, mwiklund said:


What do you suggest correcting in the backswing position?


As was stated; wrist conditions and arm structure:

AdamVWiklund1.gif.2b0ec9b326721d25d6dbdd535741dc4d.gif

This is a good start, but....

AdamVWiklund3.gif.de72da9c93b3fdcec49c681c0717dcf6.gif

This complete passivity in the hands combined with a folding/breakdown of the arms needs to change. You aren't setting your right wrist at all, and you're even loosening your grip and letting your hand slightly come off the club. We see this time and time again when people try to be "quiet" with the hands, a complete shutting down of elements that shouldn't be. In case you've ever heard "take the hands out of the swing" or "quiet the wrists" or anything similar, throw that idea out as it gets people doing what you're doing here. The pipeline of people going from "incorrect wrist set" to "no wrist set" as the solution is clogged with frustration and failure in a very similar way that people go from "over the top and steep" to "dumping the right side and getting stuck inside and steep". Speaking of...

AdamVWiklund2.gif.0a2a06c3d2592fc0bfaed395de976a81.gif

In transition this is what happens when you have poor/no wrist set and therefore poor control over the club. Your hands go the wrong way and deepen in transition, moving further behind you while steepening the shaft slightly. Your slightly shut face in takeaway and further at the top of the swing is managing the fact that poor wrist set and lack of arm structure causes you to deepen and steepen in transition which gets you working excessively flat and from the inside. Regardless of where your club is at the top of the swing, the VERY first move in transition needs to be towards aligning the club with the plane established at address, and here we see that Adam's does and yours goes the opposite way. 

Control over dynamic loft and achieving "compression" are impossible with these issues present because all your effort, conscious and subconscious, is now put towards compensating for the club, your hands, and your arms being out of position. I really like this video from Padraig about getting the wrists working, it's a good intuitive way to approach it and something I do during practice all time time.
 

 

 

Edited by Valtiel

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18 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


As was stated; wrist conditions and arm structure:

AdamVWiklund1.gif.2b0ec9b326721d25d6dbdd535741dc4d.gif

This is a good start, but....

AdamVWiklund3.gif.de72da9c93b3fdcec49c681c0717dcf6.gif

This complete passivity in the hands combined with a folding/breakdown of the arms needs to change. You aren't setting your right wrist at all, and you're even loosening your grip and letting your hand slightly come off the club. We see this time and time again when people try to be "quiet" with the hands, a complete shutting down of elements that shouldn't be. In case you've ever heard "take the hands out of the swing" or "quiet the wrists" or anything similar, throw that idea out as it gets people doing what you're doing here. The pipeline of people going from "incorrect wrist set" to "no wrist set" as the solution is clogged with frustration and failure in a very similar way that people go from "over the top and steep" to "dumping the right side and getting stuck inside and steep". Speaking of...

AdamVWiklund2.gif.0a2a06c3d2592fc0bfaed395de976a81.gif

In transition this is what happens when you have poor/no wrist set and therefore poor control over the club. Your hands go the wrong way and deepen in transition, moving further behind you while steepening the shaft slightly. Your slightly shut face in takeaway and further at the top of the swing is managing the fact that poor wrist set and lack of arm structure causes you to deepen and steepen in transition which gets you working excessively flat and from the inside. Regardless of where your club is at the top of the swing, the VERY first move in transition needs to be towards aligning the club with the plane established at address, and here we say that Adam's does and yours goes the opposite way. 

Control over dynamic loft and achieving "compression" are impossible with these issues present because all your effort, conscious and subconscious, is now put towards compensating for the club, your hands, and your arms being out of position. I really like this video from Padraig about getting the wrists working, it's a good intuitive way to approach it and something I do during practice all time time.
 

 

 


Many thanks for the very thoughtful and meaty write-up! I’m in full agreement with what needs to change - and why.
 

Next up is to figure out how. As mentioned by you, I’m one of the aspiring golfers in the incorrect to no wrist set pipeline. At least the P1-P2 move seems to be in order (which is what I have spent some considerable effort on changing from picking the hands up and twisting the club into a super flat position). 
 

I actually had the chance to audit the suggested changes above, starting with the wrist set. The DTL video was me adding “some” wrist set and the front video was me adding “more” wrist set. 

 

Posting front view in a separate post due to attachment size limitations.

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13 minutes ago, mwiklund said:


Many thanks for the very thoughtful and meaty write-up! I’m in full agreement with what needs to change - and why.
 

Next up is to figure out how. As mentioned by you, I’m one of the aspiring golfers in the incorrect to no wrist set pipeline. At least the P1-P2 move seems to be in order (which is what I have spent some considerable effort on changing from picking the hands up and twisting the club into a super flat position). 
 

I actually had the chance to audit the suggested changes above, starting with the wrist set. The DTL video was me adding “some” wrist set and the front video was me adding “more” wrist set. 

IMG_1086.mov 38.62 MB · 1 download  

Posting front view in a separate post due to attachment size limitations.

 

11 minutes ago, mwiklund said:

 

IMG_1091.mov 36.8 MB · 0 downloads  

Front view

 

Now I’m off to watch Paddy’s tips (which tend to be awesome). 
 


Cheers, and already that is better, you just have to keep pushing further. Take note of your right hand on the face on video specifically, i'd still argue it isn't hinging enough and also that it's still floating off the club and then reconnecting in transition:

WiklundWrist1.gif.c8e221134e548bd8ff79ddc0da3b899e.gif

You want a strong connection here without that gap between your left thumb and the meat of your right hand that we see you leaving open and then clamping down on in transition. That connection + the load in the wrist created in that moment needs to already be there *before* you arrive in transition. 

Combine that with attempts at creating maximum speed with the Padraig drills to get things activated and working.

Edited by Valtiel

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8 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 


Cheers, and already that is better, you just have to keep pushing further. Take note of your right hand on the face on video specifically, i'd still argue it isn't hinging enough and also that it's still floating off the club and then reconnecting in transition:

WiklundWrist1.gif.c8e221134e548bd8ff79ddc0da3b899e.gif

You want a strong connection here without that gap between your left thumb and the meat of your right hand that we see you leaving open and then clamping down on in transition. That connection + the load in the wrist created in that moment needs to already be there *before* you arrive in transition. 

Combine that with attempts at creating maximum speed with the Padraig drills to get things activated and working.

Well that was a super fast turnaround! Thanks again. I would not have picked up on the regripping action and will explore how to remedy it!

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Update - I managed to find some time during the weekend to drill down on some wrist stuff, both trying out the Paddy exercises and capturing some swings on video to see what feels are necessary to change the picture. 
 

I did see some clear changes when focusing on maintaining pressure between the lower part of the right hand and left thumb, which in turn required me to try to extend the right arm from P2 and back. 
 

Using that feel and Paddy’s low left release feel did really put me in a different position at impact.


Front view and DTL attached.

 

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  • 1 month later...

After a month and a half of putting some effort into creating more activity into the wrists I felt like it was time to upload the state of the swing. I’m not at a point where the active set on the backswing clearly helps me on the downswing but see no reason to not keep exploring. Eventually I hope that it will start seeping into my motor pattern to free up some attention space for subsequent pieces.

 

@Valtiel - anything that stands out to you? 

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  • 3 weeks later...

A couple of weeks - a number of range sessions and decent rounds in the bag. The Paddy drills and in particular using the wrists to create draws and fades by the release has been a staple in my warm up. 
 

I put some extra attention on the wrist set during my video work today. Still takes a lot of effort to not only create a decent amount of set by P3 but even more so to maintain it through transition.

 

Attaching wrist swings done feet together to calm down the lower body and lateral stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Another couple of weeks - a bunch of practice sessions and rounds played.

 

While I have been transitioning to skills/performance-related training, I’m still spending a decent amount of time on video work. Still warming up with “wristy” shots, alternating between high pull cuts and low push hooks.

 

However, video work focusing on increasing wrist set as recommended produces very inconsistent results and sub-par ball striking which is discouraging (although expected - I do try to separate movement practice from hitting shots to intended targets). 
 

Attaching DTL and front view swings from today.

 


 

 

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  • mwiklund changed the title to Controlling low point and dynamic loft - AKA the hunt for active wrists
6 hours ago, mwiklund said:

However, video work focusing on increasing wrist set as recommended produces very inconsistent results and sub-par ball striking which is discouraging


This is why:

mikVAdam.gif.e4cd20eb674201c3705819abdb4eac07.gif

Currently you're executing the drill in a way that is adding a ton of incorrect moving parts in a fairly common way. You're achieving "more wrist set" by only increasing wrist extension/flexion in the right/left hands without deviation (hinging upwards). As a result the club immediately gets behind your hands and flat, which you seem to have intuitively started compensating for by pushing your hands out away from you in takeaway. Two wrongs attempting to make a right, but they just make more wrong unfortunately. You then re-route significantly flatter to complete the backswing in a very "baseball" sort of way, basically setting yourself up to hit a ball several feet off the ground, which then forces this reroute:

mikVAdam2.gif.1910441bdb941488b188edb38a4e074c.gif

You have to steepen the shaft significantly to basically turn the club back towards your target on the ground. All these moving parts create inconsistencies, so you'll need to feel far more of a "hands straight back, club straight up" feeling when doing these drills to flip this overall pattern.

Edited by Valtiel
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3 hours ago, Valtiel said:


This is why:

mikVAdam.gif.e4cd20eb674201c3705819abdb4eac07.gif

Currently you're executing the drill in a way that is adding a ton of incorrect moving parts in a fairly common way. You're achieving "more wrist set" by only increasing wrist extension/flexion in the right/left hands without deviation (hinging upwards). As a result the club immediately gets behind your hands and flat, which you seem to have intuitively started compensating for by pushing your hands out away from you in takeaway. Two wrongs attempting to make a right, but they just make more wrong unfortunately. You then re-route significantly flatter to complete the backswing in a very "baseball" sort of way, basically setting yourself up to hit a ball several feet off the ground, which then forces this reroute:

mikVAdam2.gif.1910441bdb941488b188edb38a4e074c.gif

You have to steepen the shaft significantly to basically turn the club back towards your target on the ground. All these moving parts create inconsistencies, so you'll need to feel far more of a "hands straight back, club straight up" feeling when doing these drills to flip this overall pattern.


Many thanks for the feedback!
 

Am I correct in thinking that the late March/April swings above were actually in a better position? The flat shaft has been an old tendency of mine and I feel like increased playing together with the incorrect interpretation of wrist set has brought it right back out.

 

Now on to figure out how to get the wrists working more radially… This stuff is hard and disheartening when things start moving backwards.

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