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Cameron Champ...1st Strokes Gained off the tee...178th Approach to Green


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On 4/3/2024 at 1:17 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

Because you can hit the ball a long way (like Champ) and end up high in SG-OTT, and not have it correlate to FEC points if you can't do anything with that distance and end up #296 OWGR. Whereas if you're shortish, but straight, you can be a Morikawa and make lots cuts, win tournaments and majors, and be top 20 OWGR. 

 

I went back and re-read this thread.  This bit of your post got me to thinking about Every Shot Counts.  In it Broadie has a few scatter plots where he has names on some of the more interesting outliers.  Some well off the line of best fit because they performed much better than expected others the opposite.

 

It might be interesting to plot some points and see where Champ falls in which.  Whether say he is performing better than expected in SG-OTT or well below in SG-Approach in relation to where you would expect him to be based upon other variables.

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16 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I actually find that exceptionally lame. I want to see the best of the best compete across the spectrum. 

 

Could you imagine the Los Angeles Lakers refusing to play the Denver Nuggets because they don't like playing at altitude? The Miami Dolphins refusing to play the Buffalo Bills in December because they're not built for the cold? The Boston Red Sox refusing to play the Texas Rangers because they don't want to deal w/ Texas heat in August? Weak.  

 

I want to see Rory play in Mexico City to see if he can control his high ball flight at 7000 feet. I want to see Bryson navigate a tight course that takes driver out of the bag. I want to see Viktor Hovland on a course that really stresses the short game.  

 

MLB is that way to an extent.  You get on the back end of a five game series, you are on your last guy in your rotation or your bullpen is toast, it is not a divisional game (or worse yet that horrendous interleague mess) and you got to fly out that night.  Your give-a-darn is busted and you just want to get gone.  You just write the game off as a loss, go through the motions, and hope to be in better shape for a game that matters more to you.

 

In professional soccer you have to be mindful of the shape of your squad regarding mid-week matches, cup matches or domestic league matches.  Typically domestic league matches get your A squad.  A cup match what you put out there depends largely upon where you are in the competition and who you are facing.

 

When it comes to golf, most just cannot play every week.  They are going to have to take weeks off here and there.  Makes sense to have those weeks the ones where the tour is at a course that you don't do well on.

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12 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

MLB is that way to an extent.  You get on the back end of a five game series, you are on your last guy in your rotation or your bullpen is toast, it is not a divisional game (or worse yet that horrendous interleague mess) and you got to fly out that night.  Your give-a-darn is busted and you just want to get gone.  You just write the game off as a loss, go through the motions, and hope to be in better shape for a game that matters more to you.

 

In professional soccer you have to be mindful of the shape of your squad regarding mid-week matches, cup matches or domestic league matches.  Typically domestic league matches get your A squad.  A cup match what you put out there depends largely upon where you are in the competition and who you are facing.

 

When it comes to golf, most just cannot play every week.  They are going to have to take weeks off here and there.  Makes sense to have those weeks the ones where the tour is at a course that you don't do well on.

 

Sure. NBA has "load management". In baseball LH hitters w/ often sit against a southpaw. There is tinkering on the margin. 

 

Regardless, I think one of the most impressive things I've seen in golf is Phil winning The Open. Phil sucked at Links golf. If The Open wasn't a major, Phil probably would have just skipped that tournament every year. Instead, because it was a major he was forced to learn how to compete. And he did! That is what sport and competition is about! We need more of that. Not less. 

 

Of course that brings us down another rabbit hole of whether or not the PGAT needs a 45 event calendar. I don't think it does but others vehemently disagree. 

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21 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

MLB is that way to an extent.  You get on the back end of a five game series, you are on your last guy in your rotation or your bullpen is toast, it is not a divisional game (or worse yet that horrendous interleague mess) and you got to fly out that night.  Your give-a-darn is busted and you just want to get gone.  You just write the game off as a loss, go through the motions, and hope to be in better shape for a game that matters more to you.

 

In professional soccer you have to be mindful of the shape of your squad regarding mid-week matches, cup matches or domestic league matches.  Typically domestic league matches get your A squad.  A cup match what you put out there depends largely upon where you are in the competition and who you are facing.

 

When it comes to golf, most just cannot play every week.  They are going to have to take weeks off here and there.  Makes sense to have those weeks the ones where the tour is at a course that you don't do well on.

"When it comes to golf, most just cannot play every week.  They are going to have to take weeks off here and there.  Makes sense to have those weeks the ones where the tour is at a course that you don't do well on."

 

I think that Dutch find that lame.

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5 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Sure. NBA has "load management". In baseball LH hitters w/ often sit against a southpaw. There is tinkering on the margin. 

 

Regardless, I think one of the most impressive things I've seen in golf is Phil winning The Open. Phil sucked at Links golf. If The Open wasn't a major, Phil probably would have just skipped that tournament every year. Instead, because it was a major he was forced to learn how to compete. And he did! That is what sport and competition is about! We need more of that. Not less. 

 

Of course that brings us down another rabbit hole of whether or not the PGAT needs a 45 event calendar. I don't think it does but others vehemently disagree. 

"Of course that brings us down another rabbit hole of whether or not the PGAT needs a 45 event calendar. I don't think it does but others vehemently disagree. "

 

I strongly disagree with this statement......the PGAT is much more than the top players. The backend of the tour needs more opportunities, not less. IMO

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25 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

"Of course that brings us down another rabbit hole of whether or not the PGAT needs a 45 event calendar. I don't think it does but others vehemently disagree. "

 

I strongly disagree with this statement......the PGAT is much more than the top players. The backend of the tour needs more opportunities, not less. IMO

more opportunities doesnt have to equal 40+ weeks of tournaments a 30 week schedule with 14 alt field events would offer plenty of opportunities.

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1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

I went back and re-read this thread.  This bit of your post got me to thinking about Every Shot Counts.  In it Broadie has a few scatter plots where he has names on some of the more interesting outliers.  Some well off the line of best fit because they performed much better than expected others the opposite.

 

It might be interesting to plot some points and see where Champ falls in which.  Whether say he is performing better than expected in SG-OTT or well below in SG-Approach in relation to where you would expect him to be based upon other variables.

I think you’re on to something.  I’ve loosely followed champ the last few years.  What stands out to me is his consistency seems to be lacking. Both in play and equipment.
 

 Per pings witb website he’s always switching out irons, shafts, grip sizes.  Hes obviously searching for something and just can’t quite find it.

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2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

"Of course that brings us down another rabbit hole of whether or not the PGAT needs a 45 event calendar. I don't think it does but others vehemently disagree. "

 

I strongly disagree with this statement......the PGAT is much more than the top players. The backend of the tour needs more opportunities, not less. IMO

Exactly. There are guys chasing that dream and need as many starts as they can get to keep their card and they benefit when the top players aren’t in the field. I know some will poo poo on this thought but the locations that host tournaments benefit economically when the tour is in town plus charities. 

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10 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

I'm not sure they care about an increase in alt field events so much as a reduced schedule 

 

I'm not so sure. I think there is a pretty wide range of what these players want and what they think is sustainable. 

 

Mickelson and Norman want a closed loop, 50 man world tour. 

 

Rory's talked about a more cut throat 100 man tour w/ more turnover. You can't have turnover if those on the outside don't have a place to play. 

 

Regardless of whether you like the PGAT as currently constructed or prefer the 2019 version, things are going to change. 

 

PIF didn't just fracture golf. They also provided leverage to all the top players. It's how we've ended up w/ limited field, no cut, signature events.  

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Strokes gained are gained against the other 150-200best players in the world. Being 150th doesn’t mean you’re bad necessarily, it just means you’re not as good as other PGA tour players. But clearly you’re good at something if you’re on the tour AT ALL! 
 

Pretty sure the weeks he won he wasn’t outside of the top 50 in strokes gained.

 

You only  need a few good weeks to make 1.1 million and keep your card. 
 

Stats often don’t tell the whole picture… 

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3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Exactly. There are guys chasing that dream and need as many starts as they can get to keep their card and they benefit when the top players aren’t in the field. I know some will poo poo on this thought but the locations that host tournaments benefit economically when the tour is in town plus charities. 

Glad to see that somebody gets it......................

               PGAT, more than millionaires making more millions.

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1 minute ago, Titleist99 said:

Glad to see that somebody gets it......................

               PGAT, more than millionaires making more millions.

Yep and regardless of how some feel there’s plenty of good golf to watch each week. These guys are good. They may not all have recognizable names or be superstars but they all can play and hit some amazing shots which is entertaining. Scoring average between #1 and 100 is under 2.3 strokes.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I'm not so sure. I think there is a pretty wide range of what these players want and what they think is sustainable. 

 

Mickelson and Norman want a closed loop, 50 man world tour. 

 

Rory's talked about a more cut throat 100 man tour w/ more turnover. You can't have turnover if those on the outside don't have a place to play. 

 

Regardless of whether you like the PGAT as currently constructed or prefer the 2019 version, things are going to change. 

limited

PIF didn't just fracture golf. They also provided leverage to all the top players. It's how we've ended up w/ limited field, no cut, signature events.  

Dear Sir, there's always been limited field events. LIV didn't invent them, nor did they force the PGAT to expand them. Google limited field events on the internet and it will verify what I'm saying.  WGC, invitationals, etc....

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23 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Yep and regardless of how some feel there’s plenty of good golf to watch each week. These guys are good. They may not all have recognizable names or be superstars but they all can play and hit some amazing shots which is entertaining. Scoring average between #1 and 100 is under 2.3 strokes.

 

 

Agree- The last few weeks have been just great to watch on Sundays.  Multiple players in contention down to the finals holes.  

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19 hours ago, jimecherry said:

I'm not sure they care about an increase in alt field events so much as a reduced schedule 

 

19 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Exactly. There are guys chasing that dream and need as many starts as they can get to keep their card and they benefit when the top players aren’t in the field. I know some will poo poo on this thought but the locations that host tournaments benefit economically when the tour is in town plus charities. 

 

15 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Glad to see that somebody gets it......................

               PGAT, more than millionaires making more millions.

 

 

More events doesn't benefit the top guys, it actually makes their go at fedex cup etc harder.  When you had that wrap around season (it may still be a thing actually) where they were playing those "light field" events in the fall, the top guys weren't playing in those.  Then when the Hawaii swing started and the top guys started around new years, they were already playing from behind when it came to the fed ex points (and playing in stouter fields).

 

An opposite field event does the same.  Would be better for the top guys, the guys who qualified for the major, to have everyone else sitting at home watching and not in an event where they can get some points.

 

All that said, I don't dislike more events provided they are financially sustainable.  I am not sure how I feel about the idea of vacuuming up gate receipts from someplace and funneling them to pgat players and tour brass.  If the product isn't good, then it seems to be like a bad circus coming to town grifting off the townspeople till they have had enough and run them down the road to the next place.

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18 hours ago, isaacbm said:

Strokes gained are gained against the other 150-200best players in the world. Being 150th doesn’t mean you’re bad necessarily, it just means you’re not as good as other PGA tour players. But clearly you’re good at something if you’re on the tour AT ALL! 
 

Pretty sure the weeks he won he wasn’t outside of the top 50 in strokes gained.

 

You only  need a few good weeks to make 1.1 million and keep your card. 
 

Stats often don’t tell the whole picture… 

Correct. Touring Pros make 80% of their earnings in 20% of their tournaments.

 

Just the nature of the game,...

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On 4/3/2024 at 7:44 AM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

My apologies; you are correct. I actually just looked at his stats on the PGAT site and it is, indeed, addition. So yes, if he were tour average everywhere else, it would get him to around the top 30 this year (last season he was only 0.490 SG-OTT, so we'll see if he can keep it up). 

 

The point still stands though... If he's #1 on tour in SG-OTT and #1 on tour in driving distance, and he's missed 6 of 9 cuts this year and the only cuts he's made are non-Signature events, doesn't that suggest that driving, by itself, is overrated? You can be truly elite driving the golf ball, and that gets you to 133rd in FedEx cup points and #296 OWGR...

Why?  It’s the same as saying you are the best putter in the world but the rest of your game sucks so you shoot 80+ every round.  
 

Would that make your great putting a misleading stat?

 

SG is a tool to keep us entertained and for the pros to fully understand where their game falls short of, or is better than, their peers.

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19 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I'm not so sure. I think there is a pretty wide range of what these players want and what they think is sustainable. 

 

Mickelson and Norman want a closed loop, 50 man world tour. 

 

Rory's talked about a more cut throat 100 man tour w/ more turnover. You can't have turnover if those on the outside don't have a place to play. 

 

Regardless of whether you like the PGAT as currently constructed or prefer the 2019 version, things are going to change. 

 

PIF didn't just fracture golf. They also provided leverage to all the top players. It's how we've ended up w/ limited field, no cut, signature events.  

PIF created the WGC events?  I mostly agreed with your post but the last.  


PIF got a few top players for their exhibition tour….Rahm, Smith, DJ and maybe Bryson. And one possible up and coming star in Neimann.  Most of the rest were eager older players looking for one last payday(although DJ has stated he wanted to retire at 40…which is this summer…so he might be in that group as well)

 

So the stars may have more leverage than I the past but all stars have been catered to to an extent for decades.  You don’t think Jack and Arnie had more leverage than #150 on tour in 1968?

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19 hours ago, isaacbm said:

Strokes gained are gained against the other 150-200best players in the world. Being 150th doesn’t mean you’re bad necessarily, it just means you’re not as good as other PGA tour players. But clearly you’re good at something if you’re on the tour AT ALL! 
 

Pretty sure the weeks he won he wasn’t outside of the top 50 in strokes gained.

 

You only  need a few good weeks to make 1.1 million and keep your card. 
 

Stats often don’t tell the whole picture… 

I’m pretty sure the weeks he won he was #1 in SG for the week. 🤔

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1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

 

 

 

More events doesn't benefit the top guys, it actually makes their go at fedex cup etc harder.  When you had that wrap around season (it may still be a thing actually) where they were playing those "light field" events in the fall, the top guys weren't playing in those.  Then when the Hawaii swing started and the top guys started around new years, they were already playing from behind when it came to the fed ex points (and playing in stouter fields).

 

An opposite field event does the same.  Would be better for the top guys, the guys who qualified for the major, to have everyone else sitting at home watching and not in an event where they can get some points.

 

All that said, I don't dislike more events provided they are financially sustainable.  I am not sure how I feel about the idea of vacuuming up gate receipts from someplace and funneling them to pgat players and tour brass.  If the product isn't good, then it seems to be like a bad circus coming to town grifting off the townspeople till they have had enough and run them down the road to the next place.

And yet the top guys still made the FedEx cup playoffs. They fair better in the fields when they are in them and get more points and the non fall events got more points per event so they were able to make up the points with no problem.

 Top gotta that didn’t get into the FedEx cup was because they played bad all year and playing in events in the fall wouldn’t have helped them.

 

there are about 45 events over the course of the year. That’s plenty and no there is no more wrap around season. 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

And yet the top guys still made the FedEx cup playoffs. They fair better in the fields when they are in them and get more points and the non fall events got more points per event so they were able to make up the points with no problem.

 Top gotta that didn’t get into the FedEx cup was because they played bad all year and playing in events in the fall wouldn’t have helped them.

 

there are about 45 events over the course of the year. That’s plenty and no there is no more wrap around season. 
 

 

100%. Just to add, with the elimination of the wraparound season, we are guaranteeing a ridiculous silly season of events.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I like the season starting two weeks after East Lake.

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18 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

100%. Just to add, with the elimination of the wraparound season, we are guaranteeing a ridiculous silly season of events.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I like the season starting two weeks after East Lake.

Agree. It’s going to make for a better overall season.

 

i never had an issue with the wraparound season. It was more golf and you got to see other names. I just like watching good golf shots 

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Golf is certainly odd with its basically year-round schedule. The sponsors like the way it works out for them, and golf is in most cases easy enough on the body & mind for it to work fine that way with enough weeks off as needed. Anything else is too much wear & tear on the bod--or equipment in the case of racing--to mount so many events over almost all 52 weeks of the year.

 

It's possible that cutting events down would see guys playing harder and maybe even get more total eyes on the game. That would also be more conducive to a combined global Tour. Problem is there's no real way to be certain of the outcome and it would be foolish to mess with a winning formula. 

 

No reason not to take advantage of the way that plays out by picking events that suit your game or offer fields that are on average closer to your level. 

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19 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Dear Sir, there's always been limited field events. LIV didn't invent them, nor did they force the PGAT to expand them. Google limited field events on the internet and it will verify what I'm saying.  WGC, invitationals, etc....

 

You're going to argue that 14 elevated events at $20M purses is a legacy PGA tour characteristic? Stop. What the tour has done the last two year are major changes to the access of these events. 

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3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

PIF created the WGC events?  I mostly agreed with your post but the last.  


PIF got a few top players for their exhibition tour….Rahm, Smith, DJ and maybe Bryson. And one possible up and coming star in Neimann.  Most of the rest were eager older players looking for one last payday(although DJ has stated he wanted to retire at 40…which is this summer…so he might be in that group as well)

 

So the stars may have more leverage than I the past but all stars have been catered to to an extent for decades.  You don’t think Jack and Arnie had more leverage than #150 on tour in 1968?

 

Where did I say that?

 

The PIF throwing money around forced the tour to change. Rory and Tiger thought the best way to fight back was create the designated event model. What started as 14 full field events w/ $20M purses and cuts, has been squeezed to limited field events and most w/o cuts!

 

LIV didn't invent a damn thing and there is absolutely nothing in my statement that said they did. The PIF gave the top guys leverage. Cantlay and others can negotiate from that position and if they don't get what they want, they can go to LIV. Have you not heard the lower end tour guys constantly crying foul? Less starts for them, more fedex points for the guys in the signature events, etc etc etc. How do you think that happened? Do you really think these changes are over?  

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43 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Where did I say that?

 

The PIF throwing money around forced the tour to change. Rory and Tiger thought the best way to fight back was create the designated event model. What started as 14 full field events w/ $20M purses and cuts, has been squeezed to limited field events and most w/o cuts!

 

LIV didn't invent a damn thing and there is absolutely nothing in my statement that said they did. The PIF gave the top guys leverage. Cantlay and others can negotiate from that position and if they don't get what they want, they can go to LIV. Have you not heard the lower end tour guys constantly crying foul? Less starts for them, more fedex points for the guys in the signature events, etc etc etc. How do you think that happened? Do you really think these changes are over?  

Depends on how it reads….versus, apparently, your intent.

 

PIF didn't just fracture golf. They also provided leverage toall the top players. It's how we've ended up w/ limited field, no cut, signature events.  

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      Keegan Bradley - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Webb Simpson - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Emiliano Grillo - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Taylor Pendrith - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Kevin Tway - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      New Cobra equipment truck - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Eric Cole's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Custom Cameron putter - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Matt Kuchar's custom Bettinardi - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Justin Thomas - driver change - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Rickie Fowler - putter change - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Rickie Fowler's new custom Odyssey Jailbird 380 putter – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Tommy Fleetwood testing a TaylorMade Spider Tour X (with custom neck) – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Cobra Darkspeed Volition driver – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Monday #1
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Monday #2
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #1
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #2
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Pierceson Coody - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Kris Kim - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      David Nyfjall - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Adrien Dumont de Chassart - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Jarred Jetter - North Texas PGA Section Champ - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Richy Werenski - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Wesley Bryan - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Parker Coody - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Peter Kuest - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Blaine Hale, Jr. - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Kelly Kraft - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Rico Hoey - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Adam Scott's 2 new custom L.A.B. Golf putters - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 11 replies
    • 2024 Zurich Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Zurich Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Zurich Classic - Monday #2
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Alex Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Austin Cook - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Davis Riley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      MJ Daffue - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      MJ Daffue's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Cameron putters - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Swag covers ( a few custom for Nick Hardy) - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Custom Bettinardi covers for Matt and Alex Fitzpatrick - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
      • 1 reply

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