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what was the standard wedge setup for guys on the tour back in the day?


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Im wanting to model a newer bag with something the likes of jack and arnie and maybe even early tiger would have used, but was curious where the loft ended when it comes to wedges. were lob wedges really common? was 56 pretty much the highest it went? honestly any other information on their bags like the amount of persimmons would be helpful too. thanks all!

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Wasn't Karsten Solhiem the first to call a 60* wedge, a "lob" wedge? Prior to that, makers used various names "Exploder", "Dynamiter", "Compacter" & such....perhaps in that 56*-58* sand wedge category. I do have a couple of Beckley-Ralston "Trapshooter" wedge that have a 60* loft, I'm guessing there were others....I wonder what loft the Giant Cochrane niblick was/is?

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32 minutes ago, bcstones said:

Wasn't Karsten Solhiem the first to call a 60* wedge, a "lob" wedge? Prior to that, makers used various names "Exploder", "Dynamiter", "Compacter" & such....perhaps in that 56*-58* sand wedge category. I do have a couple of Beckley-Ralston "Trapshooter" wedge that have a 60* loft, I'm guessing there were others....I wonder what loft the Giant Cochrane niblick was/is?


I have a couple Beckley-Ralston Trapshooters as well and they are 60* although I don’t believe they were in common use, certainly not like today. 
 

Up until the 70’s, PW was around 50* and SW 55 or 56*.

Edited by Hickory4ever
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I believe the Wilson Tom Kite 60° wedge came out in 1984 or 85, but according to this article, Tom Kite himself says he started using a 60° in 1980. It has a surprising amount of offset. 

 

When did Ping release their L-wedge? If my memory serves me correctly, the EYE 2 L-wedge has 61° of loft, but was that offered when the EYE 2s came out in 1982? 

 

I have no idea if the Ping Eye irons included an L wedge.

 

TK Grind:

WilsonTK60*wedgeback.jpg.4563a7d911785909fcd5e7f824741cba.jpgWilsonTK60*wedgeaddress.jpg.7c150060c389e6aa8600d0c3c6816e0e.jpgWilsonTK60*wedgesole.jpg.ec3eb882749eb8a138f51b4e710eb382.jpg

Edited by No_Catchy_Nickname
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I remember this Tom Kite article. I think he was the first player on tour to add a 60 to his bag. He had a really good short game and it didn't take long for the other players to follow. I started playing in the '60's and a 56 was the most lofted wedge you could get. I never saw any wedge over 56 until the early 1980's. Kite was looking for that 70 yard in between shot. Faldo also looked for a 70 yard shot with a 60 degree. But the shot Faldo went looking for on a par 4 or long par 5 was a 105 yard shot. That was what he called his attacking shot and probably played it with a 53 degree. He carried a 49,53 and 60. Adding the 58 or 60 degree made all those in between shots so much easier. I had to learn to play all those shots with my pitching wedge and 56 sand wedge. Now I have a 48, 52 bent to 53 and a 58. I hardly ever hit the 53.

 

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In the 40s and 50s, pitching wedges were commonly 52* or 53* loft.  As we moved forward, they slowly migrated to 51-52, and then to 50 or 51.  In the 80s, the 49* PW started showing up.

 

Many set sand wedges were 56* or even 55* across this period, depending on the PW loft. 

 

However!....

 

Per a long time golf forumite dating back to the GEA days, sand irons were also commonly 58* and even 60* in Ye Olde Days.  He collected old wedges, and had entire bags full of SW's in those lofts, that dated across the 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.

 

It's also worth noting, when Nicklaus had his resurgence in 1980, he credited Phil Rodgers with improving his wedge play.  One of the changes made was switching to 58* for his sand wedge loft.

 

Kite was famous for introducing the "lob wedge," but he was merely returning to a loft that had existed for decades.  What he was *really* doing was introducing the three wedge configuration.

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Arias D-23, Modus3 120 S; Mizuno MP-20 HMB, NS Pro 950 R

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S; testing: Arias D-23 5i w/Modus 120 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" -or- Maxfli TM-2, 35"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3), Wilson Triad

Grip preference: various GripMaster leather options or Star Grip Sidewinders of assorted colors

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Interesting topic.  I am sure I read that even though Tom Watson's name is on various 60 degree wedges (Ram tour grind?), he never got on with them himself and usually carried a 56 as his most lofted club.

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  • PING G400 Max 9* Tensei Orange 60 S
  • PING Anser 17 / 20* hybrids Graphite Design 85S
  • Miura PP-9003 Straight Neck 4-PW Nippon NS Pro 750 GH wrap tech
  • Miura 52, 56 K forged wedges / PING Eye 2 LW beryllium copper
  • Nordberg Halvdan custom / PING Cushin Scottsdale zip / PING Jim Wells Zing 5KS SN / PING Vault 2.0 Ketsch 380g, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, ColinKelvin said:

Interesting topic.  I am sure I read that even though Tom Watson's name is on various 60 degree wedges (Ram tour grind?), he never got on with them himself and usually carried a 56 as his most lofted club.

 

I've also seen it mentioned that he carried a 58* as his SW.  <shrug> 
(makes sense that it could have been both, not at the same time 😉, over the term of his career)

 

Interestingly, Ram produced both 56* and 58* models for the 1982 Commemorative wedge.  How about that.  🙂

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Arias D-23, Modus3 120 S; Mizuno MP-20 HMB, NS Pro 950 R

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S; testing: Arias D-23 5i w/Modus 120 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" -or- Maxfli TM-2, 35"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3), Wilson Triad

Grip preference: various GripMaster leather options or Star Grip Sidewinders of assorted colors

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3 hours ago, Shallowface said:

In the original ads for the club, Ping said the L stood for "lots of loft."  The original Eye2 sand wedge had 57.5 degrees so 61 really wasn't much of a gap between the two.

 

The L wedge wasn't in the original offerings of the Eye2.  It didn't come along until the square groove version and not even with the first of those.      

 

Golf World used to have a monthly WITB feature and one month the player was Joe Inman.  He had an Eye2 L wedge before they were available to the public.  I contacted Ping after seeing that article and they denied even having such a thing!

 

In 1977 or 78 Golf Digest had a WITB on Al Geiberger where they emptied his golf bag down to the legendary peanut butter sandwich.  Al carried three wedges, but best I could tell one of them was one of those Con-Sole models, if anyone remembers those, dedicated to sand play.  To make room Al only carried one fairway wood, a "3 1/2."  Al was a Spalding guy and they were famous for those "half woods."  Shortly after that Spalding offered a set called the "Elite Plus" which came with a 3 1/2 wood and three wedges of 49/54/58.  The 58 was the sand wedge, and the 54 was a weak pitching wedge with no real bounce.  I still have the 54 I made my first ace with in 1982.  That was the only Elite Plus club I ever had.  The rest at the time were 1978 Top Flites.

 

The first commercially available 60 degree I remember was Ralph Maltby's component "Third Wedge," although I am sure there were others long before that.  Of course I had one.  Ralph had been writing about the idea of a 60 degree wedge in Golf Magazine since 1979 or so, but I doubt the idea originated with him   Or Dave Pelz for that matter.

 

Kite wanted his 60 degree to go 70 yards.  It's the 100 yard club on Tour today.   

Kite6001.jpg

Kite6002.jpg

Kite6003.jpg

 Kinda wild thinking this was such forward thought. Maybe it was just a kept secret bye successful players lol. 

 

 He was Bryson long before Bryson

Edited by ezgoer
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3 hours ago, Shallowface said:

In 1977 or 78 Golf Digest had a WITB on Al Geiberger where they emptied his golf bag down to the legendary peanut butter sandwich.  Al carried three wedges, but best I could tell one of them was one of those Con-Sole models, if anyone remembers those, dedicated to sand play.  To make room Al only carried one fairway wood, a "3 1/2."  Al was a Spalding guy and they were famous for those "half woods."  Shortly after that Spalding offered a set called the "Elite Plus" which came with a 3 1/2 wood and three wedges of 49/54/58.  The 58 was the sand wedge, and the 54 was a weak pitching wedge with no real bounce.  I still have the 54 I made my first ace with in 1982.  That was the only Elite Plus club I ever had.  The rest at the time were 1978 Top Flites.

 

I should have fully read this before my reply.  🙂

 

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Arias D-23, Modus3 120 S; Mizuno MP-20 HMB, NS Pro 950 R

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S; testing: Arias D-23 5i w/Modus 120 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" -or- Maxfli TM-2, 35"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3), Wilson Triad

Grip preference: various GripMaster leather options or Star Grip Sidewinders of assorted colors

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13 hours ago, Stephen8802 said:

The first 60 I ever saw was the Phil Rodgers Rusty in the early 80s

I think I have 2 of the Trusty Rusty's & one has the 60 on it...or maybe I'm getting mixed up w/the steel Phil rodgers Cobra wedges.

 

 

4 hours ago, Shallowface said:

The first commercially available 60 degree I remember was Ralph Maltby's component "Third Wedge,"

hmm....I just double checked a BeCu wedge club head stash - I do have a Custom Built Custom Fit 3rd Wedge either in BeCu or MgCu (it's a very dark patina)

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5 hours ago, bcstones said:

I think I have 2 of the Trusty Rusty's & one has the 60 on it...or maybe I'm getting mixed up w/the steel Phil rodgers Cobra wedges.

 

 

hmm....I just double checked a BeCu wedge club head stash - I do have a Custom Built Custom Fit 3rd Wedge either in BeCu or MgCu (it's a very dark patina)

Do you mean Manganese Bronze?  Never heard of Manganese Copper

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14 minutes ago, bcstones said:

oops...probably...don't know how to differentiate when it's so dark

Ping has made manganese bronze, stainless steel, beryllium copper and beryllium nickel putters.   They’ve never made a manganese bronze wedge.  Ping did make becu retail wedges and there are some ping beryllium nickel wedges out there that were not released for the retail market.

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In the early 80's my dad bought me my first set of matched golf clubs.  A used set of Hogan apex irons. I think the 1973 model. The sw was 56* and the Equalizer or pw was 51 or 52*. The rest of the irons were 4* apart from each other.

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Callaway mavrik max 10.5

Callaway mavrik max 3 & 5 wood
Ping g30  26* & 30* hybrids
Ping i200 6 - UW

Ping glide 54* & 60* wedges
Odyssey #7 putter

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2 hours ago, golfunderpar18 said:

Ping has made manganese bronze, stainless steel, beryllium copper and beryllium nickel putters.   They’ve never made a manganese bronze wedge.  Ping did make becu retail wedges and there are some ping beryllium nickel wedges out there that were not released for the retail market.

however, I was talking about a Matlby's wedge not Ping

 

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10 hours ago, bcstones said:

however, I was talking about a Matlby's wedge not Ping

 

The Maltby Third Wedge was available in stainless and becu.  I have fond memories of that club in becu as it was my first club "build" back in the late '80s.  Golfworks sold it in kit form with precut Dynamic shaft, ferrule, grip, tape, and "custom built custom fit" plastic medallion.  I think there was even a strip of emery cloth and a small shaft clamp too.  It was a decent wedge with a very compact head.  It definitely planted a seed- been club building ever since...

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Nickent 4DX Evolver 10.5*  UST Proforce V2 HL 60R

Innovex RLS 17* 4W    Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 Tipped R

Orlimar Black Ti 22* 4H   Litespeed R

Adams A7 5-GW   UST Proforce 85R

Golfsmith/Spalding Cash-In 55/12 SW    Cleveland Action Lite S     

Cleveland TA 900 gunmetal 60*  Nicklaus Driveshaft R+

Slotline Raider Copper Cobalt 35"

or Ray Cook M1-A Austin  35"

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Good thread, I don't find any need for 60 degree wedge. i'd rather open up something that's 54-57 the rare times I need it to flop or such. 

 

Also I live for half or 3/4 wedge shots, honestly the most fun shots to hit in my book. 

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Woods: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Spoon, TaylorMade RBZ 5 Wood

Long Irons: Ping Zings 2 Iron, 3 Iron 

Hybrid: Nike Slingshot 5 (26 degrees)

Iron Sets Cleveland Blacks 2012 5 To 9 or Wilson Staff Goosenecks 1988 4 to PW Or Hogan Redline's 1988 4 to E (no 7)

Wedges: Almost always  Mizuno T22 (45/05) ,1969 Fluid Feel PW (52 degrees)  , 80s Wilson BeCu (54 degrees),  60s Wilson Sandy Andy

Sometimes: 60s Ben Hogan Sure Out , 69 Wilson Staff Fluid Feel 8 Iron at PW length , 1958 Reissue Wilson Staff SW (55) , Ping Eye 2 Green Dot W (50)

Putter: Odyssey White Hot XG Marxman Blade or various older Ping blades. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Maine Golfer said:

Good thread, I don't find any need for 60 degree wedge. i'd rather open up something that's 54-57 the rare times I need it to flop or such. 

 

Also I live for half or 3/4 wedge shots, honestly the most fun shots to hit in my book. 

No matter how many wedges one chooses to carry, at some point you're going to have to hit a partial shot.

 

As a practical matter playing out of a cart, I've found it's best to have one I can trust to play a number of shots.  I can't tell from the cart path if I need the 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62, 64 or the 73 from the company called "Feel," the same one that offered the reverse taper grips. 

 

I don't think it's an unfair observation that through the years a number of advocates for carrying more wedges happened to be wedge salesmen.  

Edited by Shallowface
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"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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When did green speeds/agronomy start picking up? I imagine a balata ball on the fuzzier greens of yesteryear would hold pretty well with a 56 (or lower), heck Id imagine a 7 iron chip would check a little. On the polished surfaces of modern Augusta with a ProV, I'd imagine that extra loft is important. So I'd theorize the higher lofted clubs are a response to those developments more than anything, which I suppose started around the 80's

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3 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

When did green speeds/agronomy start picking up? I imagine a balata ball on the fuzzier greens of yesteryear would hold pretty well with a 56 (or lower), heck Id imagine a 7 iron chip would check a little. On the polished surfaces of modern Augusta with a ProV, I'd imagine that extra loft is important. So I'd theorize the higher lofted clubs are a response to those developments more than anything, which I suppose started around the 80's

When the 7 Iron chip was more common 7 Irons had 38-40 degrees of loft.

 

So I can't help but be amused when I see a current instructor advocate using a 7 iron for a chip when it has 10 degrees less loft than it had in the past. 

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"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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43 minutes ago, Shallowface said:

When the 7 Iron chip was more common 7 Irons had 38-40 degrees of loft.

 

So I can't help but be amused when I see a current instructor advocate using a 7 iron for a chip when it has 10 degrees less loft than it had in the past. 

I have a reputation around my club as a bump and run player. When I used the Mac blades I did the bump and run with the 5 iron. When others asked and I showed them what I did. With modern clubs though I did start them with a 7 iron.

When I switched to the more modern TM CBs I also adapted to the 7 iron. Now that club in all honesty is about 4* stronger than a blade Macgregor 7 iron. On the "blade" scale it will be a weak 5 iron or strong 6 iron. 

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Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

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