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1 hour ago, McMunch said:

Look at Andrew Rice on Youtube. He's a top 50 instructor (Golf mag/ Gold Digest) in Savannah GA. I did a 3 day golf camp there in 2015 and it changed my life.

I look at his vids for tune ups, etc. 

Thanks a lot I appreciate that any other input from others would be great

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I’d start with reading The Four Foundations of Golf by John Sherman. This will give you a nice understanding of strategy and ways to play better that don’t involve swing instruction.

 

To get more in depth on how to practice, you could then go with The Practice Manual by Adam Young.

 

These will give you a nice foundation before you go down the YouTube rabbit hole of technique instruction. By utilizing some of these practice techniques, you’ll get more skilled which naturally translates to better results without specifically working on technique.

Edited by dsmil
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8 hours ago, Nicknomates said:

"A new way to better golf" by Alex J Morrison.

An interesting read.  Think he taught Jack Grout who taught Jack. The pictures and his descriptions seem a bit strange  on first read but essentially pretty sound - though some would argue against his late wrist set .

Regardless,  an Interesting point he makes is that the essential key to a good powerful swing is pointing your chin at a point just behind the ball and keeping it there until after impact (though he also does later say then move in slightly to the right at the start of the downswing!).

 The look is quite reminiscent of Jack Nicklaus cocking of his head and perhaps the anecdote that Jack Grout held Jacks hair to stop him moving his head was really to keep his chin pointing just behind the ball.

Anyway it does work!!!

 

Edited by Nickc
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Lowest Score Wins and Every Shot Counts are both top-notch books that are special in that they are equally applicable and beneficial to both a complete beginner and somebody who's a plus handicap already.

 

Lowest Score Wins goes into some general golf swing instructional concepts in the first section of the book, but the majority of the book (the second and third sections) are dedicated to teaching you how to practice effectively to make lasting improvements and how to play golf efficiently with whatever swing you currently have. These latter concepts are backed up with statistical analysis on exactly where you can and will gain or lose the most strokes with clear categorization to classify the importance of different types of shots on your final score into 4 categories from most impactful to least impactful. Broadie's book, Every Shot Counts, is largely focused on the same idea of planning your round based on statistics and goes a bit more in-depth on the specific numbers if you're a real stats nerd who likes that type of thing.

 

The Four Foundations mentioned above is more or less the same thing as Lowest Score Wins with different names for the main concepts and published more recently, and popular systems like DECADE are largely based on the strokes gained statistics work by Broadie so the ideas in them have definitely had some lasting appeal beyond just the statistical evidence of why they should work. 

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I think a regular person could learn a functional swing from David Leadbetter’s The Golf Swing, or from Peter Cowen’s videos called the Pyramid of Learning on YouTube.

 

Both pretty much start with how to move the body, Leadbetter teaching in terms of a transition during the pivot and Cowen in terms of a spiral movement of the body.  The video by AMG on hip turn and thrust is also eye opening.


The vast majority of books and videos I see IMO woefully neglect body movement in favor of discussing arm positions and such.

 

Adam Young’s site had some blogs about how the club and the ground should interact which is also much neglected.  One of the many paradoxes of the swing as far as I can tell is at contact the  hands need to be moving up and in while the club head is moving down and out.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen a book or video really deal with it in any detail.  Maybe they think we are too dumb.

 

So here you are, this is what you are trying to do:

 

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/how-to-compress-your-iron-shots-in-golf/

 

 

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1 hour ago, Celeras said:

This thread has a dozen replies and nobody said Ben Hogan's Five Lessons?

 

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Great book. Drives  a lot of lessons to instructors. 🤣

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Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 26. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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1 hour ago, Celeras said:

This thread has a dozen replies and nobody said Ben Hogan's Five Lessons?

 

Season 8 Wtf GIF by The Office


Likely because, while a “classic,” it’s not what Ben actually did and not the best teaching as we’ve learned a lot since it’s publication.

 

Choosing to learn to play golf in the day and age (huge emphasis on that) by reading books is like using hickory shafts and no wedges above 45 degrees while playing Augusta. There are a lot of easier, more efficient ways. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

like using hickory shafts and no wedges above 45 degrees while playing Augusta. 

Augusta was opened for play in 1932, designed by Bobby Jones and Alister Mackenzie, when hickory shafted clubs were the norm for most golfers.

(+ My niblicks are well over 45 degrees in loft)

Edited by Nicknomates
Added bit about the niblick
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15 hours ago, Nickc said:

The pictures and his descriptions seem a bit strange  on first read but essentially pretty sound

Re Alex Morrison book. Agree not a bad book in general BUT the grip that he says is essential to a good swing is a bit unorthodox re the left hand imo - seems very strong plus says the club should be entirely in the palm of the left hand and the left thumb should be wrapped around the shaft and not lay down the side of the shaft.

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4 hours ago, Nicknomates said:

Augusta was opened for play in 1932, designed by Bobby Jones and Alister Mackenzie, when hickory shafted clubs were the norm for most golfers.

(+ My niblicks are well over 45 degrees in loft)


Correct. But notice how none of today’s players are still using these….. it’s because there’s a better way.

 

Just like there are better ways to learn the game of golf (and the golf swing) in this day and age rather than trying to digest Hogan’s 5 fundamentals and teach yourself. 

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2 hours ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Correct. But notice how none of today’s players are still using these….. it’s because there’s a better way.

Or is it because they are not so skilled and need the help of modern technology.

Though the course is longer now the pros playing hickories could still go round in par or under.

Seriously though, leaning to play hickories is quite a good way to develop a good sound swing....though maybe not if you are a hungry power distance guy or gal.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Nicknomates said:

Or is it because they are not so skilled and need the help of modern technology


Clearly the best players in the world don’t have enough skill…… clearly if practicing with hickory shafts offered them even .01% benefit or a leg-up over their competitors they use it. Strangely, I don’t think any are.

 

16 minutes ago, Nicknomates said:

Though the course is longer now the pros playing hickories could still go round in par or under.


You do realize that there are only 14 of the best players in the world, with the most accurately fit technology, under par at Augusta as of this post (and 7 more at even par). That seems to contradict the quoted statement. 
 

By all means, you do you and enjoy the Masters! Seriously. Nothing wrong with the old era of golf, but thinking it still holds a place today is a fallacy (but that doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate it for what it is/was).

 

BTW, I still love the Bird, Jordan era better……. 

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1 hour ago, Nicknomates said:

Though the course is longer now the pros playing hickories could still go round in par or under.

 

This is not remotely true, no.

Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 26. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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1 hour ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Clearly the best players in the world don’t have enough skill…… clearly if practicing with hickory shafts offered them even .01% benefit or a leg-up over their competitors they use it. Strangely, I don’t think any are.

Can you not see the humour/lack of seriousness in what I said..oh dear.

 

Though in a separate sport I personally think tennis is now a lot less interesting than in the days of the old wooden rackets...a lot less finesse most of the time, more reliance on shear power.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is not remotely true, no.

Haven't actually looked up Augusta scores so you may be right

(edit look at link below Bobby Jones scores.

Byron Nelson won in 1937 at 5 under. But then what clubs was he using? .possibly steel or pyratone covered steel shaft ones by then though if anything like my pyratones would have similar heads to hickories.)

 

But below is  Bobby Jones scores for British and American opens which are reasonably impressive for the equipment he used.

Anyway, not being entirely serious about skill levels so let's leave it there.

 

Year Championship Winning score
1927 The Open Championship (68–72–73–72=285)
1929 U.S. Open +6 (69–75–71–79=294)
1930 The Open Championship (70–72–74–75=291)
1930 U.S. Open −1 (71–73–68–75=287


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Masters_Tournament

 

Oh and Horton Smith won in 1934 at 4 under for the tournament.

And look at the scores several players under par for each round!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_Masters_Tournament

Edited by Nicknomates
Added Byron Nelson bit and then Horton Smith
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I think others took what you wrote as "modern tour players on the modern length course could go around in less than par playing hickories."

Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 26. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

This is not remotely true, no.

With a modern softer ball and really well matched hickory clubs yes a tour pro could easily shoot par.  I played with a guy who was in his 60s and shot par at my course playing hickories.  He did loose a bit of distance with his driver but he still hit every shot on target and a reasonable distance.  An average golfer will struggle with hickories but a really talented player will find the center of the clubface every time and have no problem playing really well. 

 

That's imho!

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On 4/11/2024 at 10:28 PM, dsmil said:

I’d start with reading The Four Foundations of Golf by John Sherman. This will give you a nice understanding of strategy and ways to play better that don’t involve swing instruction.

 

To get more in depth on how to practice, you could then go with The Practice Manual by Adam Young.

 

These will give you a nice foundation before you go down the YouTube rabbit hole of technique instruction. By utilizing some of these practice techniques, you’ll get more skilled which naturally translates to better results without specifically working on technique.

Big +1 on those.  Sherman's is more about scoring and playing efficiently than any swing instruction.  Pick better targets, this game is hard, so don't be down on yourself, etc. 

Young's is a book about how we learn, not just how we learn golf.  The theories and methods within it have a lot more application than just our golf games.

Both are happy to engage with you on X.

 

As for instruction, go find a pro and take some lessons.  Then do what they tell you.  Since you're not going to do that---people have told that to me, and I mostly haven't---go look at a few of Monte's videos mentioned upthread and see if his style gels with yours.  Padraig Harrington's "Paddy's Golf Tips", are excellent as well.  If you're of a more technical bent, try Athletic Motion Golf's videos for some novel insights.

 

But really, get some lessons.

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17 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

An average golfer will struggle with hickories but a really talented player will find the center of the clubface every time and have no problem playing really well. 

That is partly why I suggested (albeit a bit tongue on cheek) learning to swing a hickory shafted club  (or even an old pyratone with similar club face) to develop sound swing mechanics.

It is my opinion (and I know most will disagree) but forgiving* GI irons can be detrimental as a starting point to learn to swing.

 

(* Mind you it could be argued that persimmon/wood head woods are more forgiving than modern woods due to better gear effect , though they lose re distance)

Edited by Nicknomates
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20 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

With a modern softer ball and really well matched hickory clubs yes a tour pro could easily shoot par.

 

On a modern golf course? I'm gonna wager no, and I'd win that bet far more often than I'd lose it. I doubt your course is 7500 yards. 😄 But… pretty OT, so… that's all I have on that

Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 26. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

On a modern golf course? I'm gonna wager no, and I'd win that bet far more often than I'd lose it. I doubt your course is 7500 yards. 😄 But… pretty OT, so… that's all I have on that

Sigh, you lose the bet once and your original statement is wrong. 

Original statement: "This is not remotely true, no."

 

Bobby Jones hit 300 yard drives with hickory as did Ted Ray and some number of other other players.  Jones reached some par fives in two that nobody else reached for many years if I remember correctly.  Give a Rory a perfectly setup set of hickories and some serious practice and he could shoot par or better no problem.

Also it is not the hickory shafts but the old time clubheads that make it difficult.  A properly fitted hickory shaft in a modern driver head would work great until it broke.

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