Jump to content

Red penalty area - rules question


Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

Yesterday I drove my ball into a bushy/muddy area over a little creek directly in front of the tee box, the whole area including the bushes is a red penalty area.

 

We didn't see my ball pop out of the area and we all agreed it was likely lost in the bushes inside the red penalty area.

 

I played a second ball, assuming my first ball was lost, as a 3 off the tee. 

 

When we crossed the bridge over the water and to the other side where the bushes were, we found my ball in a playable spot inside the red penalty area.

 

One of my playing partners said I couldn't play it because I'd already hit the other ball. Something about "known or virtually certain".

 

I didn't understand the rule, but was already having a bad score day so I didn't care to challenge it, but I'm curious if anyone can clarify if my playing partner was correct, or if I could play that ball?

 

I've checked the rules of golf, but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for. 
 

Thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, mc2 said:

 

1) We didn't see my ball pop out of the area and we all agreed it was likely lost in the bushes inside the red penalty area.

 

I played a second ball, assuming my first ball was lost, as a 3 off the tee. 

 

1) See the definition of "Known or Virtually Certain"

 

2) Did you indicate that the second ball was intended to be a 'Provisional ball'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Newby said:

1) See the definition of "Known or Virtually Certain"

 

2) Did you indicate that the second ball was intended to be a 'Provisional ball'


Can you clarify how the known or virtually certain definition relates to my

situation? Speak to me like I'm a 5 year old haha. I just read the definition but I don't get it. 
 

Even though we all saw the ball go into the bushes and disappear, and we all assumed it would be lost, I always intended on looking for it when I got over the bridge.

 

I usually indicate that I'm hitting a provisional, however in the heat of the moment I said something along the lines of "that one's gone I'll hit another".

 

I asked the playing partner (the one who declared I couldn't play the ball) if I could have played the ball if I announced my second ball as provisional, and he said no it didn't matter either way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Check out Rule 17.1 (c)

 

I did read that (rule pasted in below), however it doesn't solve it for

me.

 

I guess my ball was not actually "known" or "virtually certain" it was in the penalty area. We all assumed the worst because we didn't see it pop out, but at the same time I was always going to look for it on the other side in case it did pop out. I accidentally didn't announce my second ball as provisional, but my playing partner said it didn't matter. 

17.1c

Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area

If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:
  • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.
  • Once the player puts another ball in playto take relief in this way:
    • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
    • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, mc2 said:


Can you clarify how the known or virtually certain definition relates to my

situation? Speak to me like I'm a 5 year old haha. I just read the definition but I don't get it. 
 

Even though we all saw the ball go into the bushes and disappear, and we all assumed it would be lost, I always intended on looking for it when I got over the bridge.

 

I usually indicate that I'm hitting a provisional, however in the heat of the moment I said something along the lines of "that one's gone I'll hit another".

 

I asked the playing partner (the one who declared I couldn't play the ball) if I could have played the ball if I announced my second ball as provisional, and he said no it didn't matter either way. 

I (or someone else will get back to you re the first two paragraphs.

 

However, if you play a provisional and then find your original within 3 minutes you must play the original and the provisional is 'dead'

 

Edit

 

It seems you have sorted it out.

1) Known or Virtually Certain (KVC) was one key

2) Provisional ball was the other

 

Edited by Newby
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, mc2 said:

Hi,

 

Yesterday I drove my ball into a bushy/muddy area over a little creek directly in front of the tee box, the whole area including the bushes is a red penalty area.

 

We didn't see my ball pop out of the area and we all agreed it was likely lost in the bushes inside the red penalty area.

 

I played a second ball, assuming my first ball was lost, as a 3 off the tee. 

 

When we crossed the bridge over the water and to the other side where the bushes were, we found my ball in a playable spot inside the red penalty area.

 

One of my playing partners said I couldn't play it because I'd already hit the other ball. Something about "known or virtually certain".

 

I didn't understand the rule, but was already having a bad score day so I didn't care to challenge it, but I'm curious if anyone can clarify if my playing partner was correct, or if I could play that ball?

 

I've checked the rules of golf, but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for. 
 

Thank you

 

You're playing partner was correct.  Without a Local Rule you would have had to go around the PA first to see if it actually came out.

 

In this case, you'd have seen it and would have played it.

 

So, since the incident would've almost surely have been considered KVC (Known (100% certainty) or Virtually Certain(95% certainty)) that the ball was IN the PA you were taking stroke and distance relief for your ball in the PA.

 

A provisional is only allowed if your ball MAY be OB or lost OUTSIDE of a PA - but you still need to make sure you let the others know you are playing that ball provisionally.

 

Since your ball, in this case, (sounds like) could NOT have been lost had it gotten out of the PA, you cannot hit a provisional.

 

Edited by nsxguy
  • Like 2

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Ping G20 5-PW DGS300 Yellow Dot

Ping Glide Pro 48*

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 35*, RED, Black Accra

Callaway Tour TruTrack Yellow

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, mc2 said:

 

I did read that (rule pasted in below), however it doesn't solve it for

me.

 

I guess my ball was not actually "known" or "virtually certain" it was in the penalty area. We all assumed the worst because we didn't see it pop out, but at the same time I was always going to look for it on the other side in case it did pop out. I accidentally didn't announce my second ball as provisional, but my playing partner said it didn't matter. 

17.1c

Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area

If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:
  • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.
  • Once the player puts another ball in playto take relief in this way:
    • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
    • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

The words I've bolded in your second para provides your answer. You have indicated that, at the time the second ball was played, you did not have 'knowledge' and you were not 'virtually certain', that your ball was in the penalty area. So when you played the second ball, the ruling has to be that it was played under stroke and distance. Which means that second ball is ball in play and the original ball was a wrong ball and could no longer be played (pick it up or donate it to the penalty area Gods and play on).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You're playing partner was correct.  Without a Local Rule you would have had to go around the PA first to see if it actually came out.

 

In this case, you'd have seen it and would have played it.

 

So, since the incident would've almost surely have been considered KVC (Known (100% certainty) or Virtually Certain(95% certainty)) that the ball was IN the PA you were taking stroke and distance relief for your ball in the PA.

 

A provisional is only allowed if your ball MAY be OB or lost OUTSIDE of a PA - but you still need to make sure you let the others know you are playing that ball provisionally.

 

Since your ball, in this case, (sounds like) could NOT have been lost had it gotten out of the PA, you cannot hit a provisional.

 

 
Thanks for clarifying, good to know for the future.

 

I see now the only option in this scenario is to look for the ball first, which in this scenario would have been possible since it was fairly close to the tee box.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, antip said:

The words I've bolded in your second para provides your answer. You have indicated that, at the time the second ball was played, you did not have 'knowledge' and you were not 'virtually certain', that your ball was in the penalty area. So when you played the second ball, the ruling has to be that it was played under stroke and distance. Which means that second ball is ball in play and the original ball was a wrong ball and could no longer be played (pick it up or donate it to the penalty area Gods and play on).

 

Even if he had had KVC the second ball was played under S&D as it was played from the same spot.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are KVC it’s in the PA, you aren’t allowed a provisional ball. When you strike your 3rd from the tee, that’s it. It’s your ball in play. 
 

If you aren’t KVC your ball is in the PA, you can announce, “I’ll hit a provisional ball”. Then someone in your group will say “you can’t hit a provisional ball if you think your ball is in a water hazard”. (See what I did there?)

 

THEN you have to reply, “I don’t believe I have KVC my ball is in the PA, so it is my right to hit a provisional ball.” At which point the same player will say, “You can’t hit a provisional ball when your ball’s in a water hazard.” Then you tee your ball and say, “This is a provisional ball”. And hit. 
 

Then go forward to look. 
 

In your case, if you felt you didn’t have KVC, and you announced and hit your provisional ball, when you got up to the spot and saw your ball in the PA, your provisional is no longer a valid option. You have the options for a PA at that point, as now you DO have KVC, including going back to the tee to hit your 3rd if you’d like. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Even if he had had KVC the second ball was played under S&D as it was played from the same spot.

 

Indeed.  The OP stated I played a second ball, assuming my first ball was lost, as a 3 off the tee.  All the discussion about known or virtually certain is irrelevant.  The second ball is his ball in play and it doesn't matter where his first ball is or might be.

 

 

Edited by Colin L
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 

Indeed.  The OP stated I played a second ball, assuming my first ball was lost, as a 3 off the tee.  All the discussion about known or virtually certain is irrelevant.  The second ball is his ball in play and it doesn't matter where his first ball is or might be.

 

 

Agree. But Newby launched that ship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Augster said:

If you are KVC it’s in the PA, you aren’t allowed a provisional ball. When you strike your 3rd from the tee, that’s it. It’s your ball in play. 
 

If you aren’t KVC your ball is in the PA, you can announce, “I’ll hit a provisional ball”. Then someone in your group will say “you can’t hit a provisional ball if you think your ball is in a water hazard”. (See what I did there?)

 

THEN you have to reply, “I don’t believe I have KVC my ball is in the PA, so it is my right to hit a provisional ball.” At which point the same player will say, “You can’t hit a provisional ball when your ball’s in a water hazard.” Then you tee your ball and say, “This is a provisional ball”. And hit. 
 

Then go forward to look. 
 

In your case, if you felt you didn’t have KVC, and you announced and hit your provisional ball, when you got up to the spot and saw your ball in the PA, your provisional is no longer a valid option. You have the options for a PA at that point, as now you DO have KVC, including going back to the tee to hit your 3rd if you’d like. 


Thank you, good explanation. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, denkea said:

Why would you be permitted to hit a provisional ball if you thought your original was in a penalty area???

If it is not “known or virtually certain” that your ball is in the penalty area then it may be lost outside the penalty area. If you never find and identify your ball it is assumed as lost, not in the penalty area. If you find your ball the provisional is abandoned.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You're playing partner was correct.  Without a Local Rule you would have had to go around the PA first to see if it actually came out.


And the specific local rule , if enacted, would be, B-3 Provisional Ball for Ball in a Penalty Area

  • Like 1

Ping 430Max 10k / Callaway UW 17 & 21 / Srixon ZX5 Irons (5-AW) / Vokey SM8 56* & 60*, Callaway, 64*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Monday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #2
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Keith Mitchell - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Rafa Campos - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      R Squared - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Martin Laird - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Paul Haley - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Tyler Duncan - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Min Woo Lee - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Austin Smotherman - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Eric Cole's newest custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      New Super Stroke Marvel comic themed grips - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Ben Taylor's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Tyler Duncan's Axis 1 putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cameron putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Chris Kirk's new Callaway Opus wedges - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      ProTC irons - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Dragon Skin 360 grips - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cobra prototype putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
      SeeMore putters - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 0 replies
    • 2024 PGA Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put  any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 PGA Championship - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Michael Block - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Patrick Reed - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cam Smith - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Brooks Koepka - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Josh Speight - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Takumi Kanaya - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Kyle Mendoza - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Adrian Meronk - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jordan Smith - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jeremy Wells - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jared Jones - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      John Somers - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Larkin Gross - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Tracy Phillips - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Jon Rahm - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Keita Nakajima - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Kazuma Kobori - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      David Puig - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
      Ryan Van Velzen - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Bettinardi covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cameron putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Max Homa - Titleist 2 wood - 2024 PGA Championship
      Scotty Cameron experimental putter shaft by UST - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 13 replies
    • 2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Monday #1
      2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Tuesday #1
      2024 Wells Fargo Championship - Tuesday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Akshay Bhatia - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Matthieu Pavon - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Keegan Bradley - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Webb Simpson - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Emiliano Grillo - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Taylor Pendrith - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Kevin Tway - WITB - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      New Cobra equipment truck - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Eric Cole's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Custom Cameron putter - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Matt Kuchar's custom Bettinardi - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Justin Thomas - driver change - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Rickie Fowler - putter change - 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Rickie Fowler's new custom Odyssey Jailbird 380 putter – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Tommy Fleetwood testing a TaylorMade Spider Tour X (with custom neck) – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
      Cobra Darkspeed Volition driver – 2024 Wells Fargo Championship
       
       
       
       
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Monday #1
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Monday #2
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #1
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #2
      2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Pierceson Coody - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Kris Kim - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      David Nyfjall - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Adrien Dumont de Chassart - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Jarred Jetter - North Texas PGA Section Champ - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Richy Werenski - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Wesley Bryan - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Parker Coody - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Peter Kuest - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Blaine Hale, Jr. - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Kelly Kraft - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Rico Hoey - WITB - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Adam Scott's 2 new custom L.A.B. Golf putters - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Haha
        • Like
      • 11 replies
    • 2024 Zurich Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Zurich Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Zurich Classic - Monday #2
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Alex Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Austin Cook - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Davis Riley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      MJ Daffue - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      MJ Daffue's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Cameron putters - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Swag covers ( a few custom for Nick Hardy) - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Custom Bettinardi covers for Matt and Alex Fitzpatrick - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
      • 1 reply

×
×
  • Create New...