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Just got back from the annual buddies trip in Texas yesterday with a classic sandbagger controversy. 

 

I'll preface this by saying this isn't a world class group of players, mostly 8 HS/college friends ranging from a 6 HCP up to 36. Just having a good time, with a team bet, side wagers and skins for the weekend normally. A few of us have GHINs and the rest is just an honor system because we all know generally how good we are so it's never been needed

 

This year, our resident 8 tells us he's playing to a 13 because "I've only played 5 rounds this year and that was my number." A few of us give him s*** but he sticks with it. OK fine.

 

He then fires off a gross 75 Saturday and a gross 77 Monday to win every side bet and took home about $225 in skins, while telling us how great he shot all weekend. I know the guy enough to know he didn't try and screw us, but he certainly didn't post the right number and definitely can't read a room (less bragging when you're going net 10-under, bud. If he was a little embarrassed and admitted his number was off, we'd be fine most likely). Now he thinks a few of us are overreacting for telling him we're done with the cash games until he posts a legit HCP. Is that overreacting? I have no problem getting beat when the 18 pulls an 86 out his hat for a 4-under net. But dropping your HCP by about 40% then firing off a pair of mid-70s and trash talking the whole time....Don't know about that.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, tocino said:

You guys are buddies. i would've called him on his bs after saturday and then gave him sh** for the rest of the weekend for being a sandbagger lol

 

 What's the point of going on a guys' trip if you don't endless talk smack to each other for basically the whole time? 

Oh the trash talking is non-stop and part of the weekend for sure. More of a "Bill, we told you you weren't a 13, you kicked our a** and took our money. But read the room a bit." The odds of a double-digit shooting 75 and 77 in a 3-round stretch seem....long.

Again, we agreed to the number so we paid up. But going forward I don't think it's unreasonable to make our HCP rules a little more firm. He was making it seem like we demanded he has an official scorer follow him around for the next 12 months.

 

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There are a couple solutions in my mind.

 

1. Already mentioned play to whatever the HC is.

2.  Have a vote among your group PRIOR to the trip on what's an acceptable HC.

3.  Change up the game(s) played. I know I do a Feb trip with friends from MA and MI. I live in FL so I'm in form they're playing their first round of there year. So, it more foursomes, 2 man scrambles, match play etc

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If an 8 shoots 75 gross, that’s highly unusual, though not unheard of.  For a 13 to shoot 75, though, is a Haley’s Comet situation.

 

And if he’s basing his estimate of a 13 on 5 rounds, the 75 would take the 13 way down before Day 2.  Like WAY down…
 

You might also point out to him that the guys with actual GHIN indexes don’t have the luxury of basing their handicap on only five rounds, even that’s all the golf they’ve played recently.  Their indexes might include scores that go all the way back to last year’s trip if they don’t play much golf.

 

it sort of sounds like this guy suffers from an extreme case of no conscience.  If I told my buddies I was a 13, and then won everything with a gross 75, I wouldn’t accept the money, and I sure wouldn’t claim to be a 13 the next day.

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What's the old saying? Most golf bets are won before you tee off ...

 

A five-stroke swing in scoring average is massive, especially from a guy with a single digit index.  There is absolutely no way I would allow someone (buddy or not) to assign themselves a handicap adjustment like that without a documented injury.

 

He may also have been expected some type of stroke negotiation and was throwing out a crazy number to give himself some bargaining position if you all pushed back hard enough. We have guys at my club that try that all the time, which gets infuriating. My opinion is that if you have a handicap and want to gamble, it should be either straight up or use your current index.

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4 hours ago, Captain Hook11 said:

Just got back from the annual buddies trip in Texas yesterday with a classic sandbagger controversy. 

 

I'll preface this by saying this isn't a world class group of players, mostly 8 HS/college friends ranging from a 6 HCP up to 36. Just having a good time, with a team bet, side wagers and skins for the weekend normally. A few of us have GHINs and the rest is just an honor system because we all know generally how good we are so it's never been needed

 

This year, our resident 8 tells us he's playing to a 13 because "I've only played 5 rounds this year and that was my number." A few of us give him s*** but he sticks with it. OK fine.

 

He then fires off a gross 75 Saturday and a gross 77 Monday to win every side bet and took home about $225 in skins, while telling us how great he shot all weekend. I know the guy enough to know he didn't try and screw us, but he certainly didn't post the right number and definitely can't read a room (less bragging when you're going net 10-under, bud. If he was a little embarrassed and admitted his number was off, we'd be fine most likely). Now he thinks a few of us are overreacting for telling him we're done with the cash games until he posts a legit HCP. Is that overreacting? I have no problem getting beat when the 18 pulls an 86 out his hat for a 4-under net. But dropping your HCP by about 40% then firing off a pair of mid-70s and trash talking the whole time....Don't know about that.

 

 

Guessing one's handicap based on the number of rounds, will never pass muster with any of the people I play with.  Each person either has a legit HCP or, as a group we assign what, we think, is appropriate. 

 

Trash talking comes with competition.  If I understand correctly, you said that you knew each other's games.  Okay, except that makes after-the-fact grumbling about someone's taking all the money using their chosen HCP, a bit flimsy.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Captain Hook11 said:

Just got back from the annual buddies trip in Texas yesterday with a classic sandbagger controversy. 

 

I'll preface this by saying this isn't a world class group of players, mostly 8 HS/college friends ranging from a 6 HCP up to 36. Just having a good time, with a team bet, side wagers and skins for the weekend normally. A few of us have GHINs and the rest is just an honor system because we all know generally how good we are so it's never been needed

 

This year, our resident 8 tells us he's playing to a 13 because "I've only played 5 rounds this year and that was my number." A few of us give him s*** but he sticks with it. OK fine.

 

He then fires off a gross 75 Saturday and a gross 77 Monday to win every side bet and took home about $225 in skins, while telling us how great he shot all weekend. I know the guy enough to know he didn't try and screw us, but he certainly didn't post the right number and definitely can't read a room (less bragging when you're going net 10-under, bud. If he was a little embarrassed and admitted his number was off, we'd be fine most likely). Now he thinks a few of us are overreacting for telling him we're done with the cash games until he posts a legit HCP. Is that overreacting? I have no problem getting beat when the 18 pulls an 86 out his hat for a 4-under net. But dropping your HCP by about 40% then firing off a pair of mid-70s and trash talking the whole time....Don't know about that.

 

 

I don't guess y'all went to Albany, did you? 

 

Edit: Just realized the "buddy trip" part. Reading is good

 

 

Sounds like he was just "on" this weekend. Not playing doesn't equate to your handicap changing. I have an older guy I play with (64 y/o) that goes months to a year at a time without swinging a club....He always comes right out and shoots under par like he never took a break.  Then there's people like me, who can go from a plus HC to shooting high 70s if I don't play at least 3 times a week. Everyone's different. I'd be on your buddy to get a legit HC established before your next trip. 

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6 hours ago, Captain Hook11 said:

Just got back from the annual buddies trip in Texas yesterday with a classic sandbagger controversy. 

 

I'll preface this by saying this isn't a world class group of players, mostly 8 HS/college friends ranging from a 6 HCP up to 36. Just having a good time, with a team bet, side wagers and skins for the weekend normally. A few of us have GHINs and the rest is just an honor system because we all know generally how good we are so it's never been needed

 

This year, our resident 8 tells us he's playing to a 13 because "I've only played 5 rounds this year and that was my number." A few of us give him s*** but he sticks with it. OK fine.

 

He then fires off a gross 75 Saturday and a gross 77 Monday to win every side bet and took home about $225 in skins, while telling us how great he shot all weekend. I know the guy enough to know he didn't try and screw us, but he certainly didn't post the right number and definitely can't read a room (less bragging when you're going net 10-under, bud. If he was a little embarrassed and admitted his number was off, we'd be fine most likely). Now he thinks a few of us are overreacting for telling him we're done with the cash games until he posts a legit HCP. Is that overreacting? I have no problem getting beat when the 18 pulls an 86 out his hat for a 4-under net. But dropping your HCP by about 40% then firing off a pair of mid-70s and trash talking the whole time....Don't know about that.

 

 

... After the first round, I would have said "What a great idea! We are all adding 5 strokes to our index for the rest of our trip."  😇

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That’s why you play off your 12 month low… I swear, nothing ruins a good relationship quicker than assuming people are on the same page. Next time you go on a buddies trip, be the enforcer 2 months before the trip. Get the rules out of the way, let them know if they play better than their “approximate handicap” then it comes down the next day. 

 

I’ve seen how people handle their money. Be it millions or a dozen bucks, nobody likes to feel like they’ve been played. Heck, about 40% of people will have a moan even if they’ve lost dough fair and square. Even if a dime is at stake, set the rules up early so that if someone is left sour at the end, it’s cause they missed a putt, not cause they were bagged. 

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11 hours ago, Captain Hook11 said:

This year, our resident 8 tells us he's playing to a 13 because "I've only played 5 rounds this year and that was my number." A few of us give him s*** but he sticks with it. OK fine.

 

As another poster indicated, OK, since we're all buddies, 13 is fine,,,,,,,,, for Saturday.

 

After the 75 on Saturday, GTFOOH, you're back to an 8.  :classic_rolleyes: :classic_biggrin:

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If he has an actual handicap that's 8 and he's played to an 8 when you previously played him but then you guys go ahead and give him 13 strokes anyway, that's on the group for basically gifting him $225. I guess you all must really like this guy, or at least you did before the trip.

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1 hour ago, North Butte said:

If he has an actual handicap that's 8 and he's played to an 8 when you previously played him but then you guys go ahead and give him 13 strokes anyway, that's on the group for basically gifting him $225. I guess you all must really like this guy, or at least you did before the trip.

 

 

thought the same thing....  You can not trend down fast enough to get to a 13 unless his oldest 5 scores were 80 and fell off.. still highly unlikely 

 

maybe his group doesnt like money so needed to give some away

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17 hours ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Are you bothered more by the trash talk or the sandbagging?

The combination. Feel a little embarrassed about the score and it's a day of getting s*** from the guys and over with. Brag about it for an evening then follow it up with a 77 and more trash talking while acting offended when a few of us call you a sandbagger, that's something else. I'm just venting here at this point ha.

 

But yes, he was told there will be no money games until legit caps are posted.

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On 5/22/2024 at 9:11 AM, Captain Hook11 said:

Oh the trash talking is non-stop and part of the weekend for sure. More of a "Bill, we told you you weren't a 13, you kicked our a** and took our money. But read the room a bit." The odds of a double-digit shooting 75 and 77 in a 3-round stretch seem....long...

https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

 

Seems relevant.  Assuming Par 72, his scores at an 8 HDCP are right on the edge of believability. (1 in 250-ish) 

 

A 13, lol.  It's in the 1 in 7500 or so range.

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1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

https://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

 

Seems relevant.  Assuming Par 72, his scores at an 8 HDCP are right on the edge of believability. (1 in 250-ish) 

 

A 13, lol.  It's in the 1 in 7500 or so range.

 

 

I ask people how many rounds do you play a year? 50? okay... is your score a once in a 150 year round? now you understand what 1:7500 is 

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On 5/23/2024 at 10:30 AM, monty09 said:

 

 

I ask people how many rounds do you play a year? 50? okay... is your score a once in a 150 year round? now you understand what 1:7500 is 

Not at all.  That is not how often an individual will do it….its how often thousands of 13 handicaps would. In other words it’s done many times a day by someone.

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On 5/22/2024 at 7:45 PM, Augster said:

Your cap is your cap. In this day and age, where everyone owns and knows how to operate a cell phone, it is simply laziness why a person wouldn’t have a legit cap, or a free cap computed on The Grint etc. 

 

BTW, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for an 8 index to go to a 13 by only playing 5 rounds. He’s simply looking at his average score over par over the last 5 rounds which is ALWAYS going to be a MILE over one’s legit index. 
 

You folks were fools to let this happen, but it’s your money, spend it how you want. He’s also a moron for having no clue how the handicap system works,

yet is begging for shots. If you have to beg people for shots, you better know the handicap system inside and out to make your case. 
 

In the future, make sure he keeps a cap. Anyone can keep a “good enough for gambling” handicap on The Grint. 
 

https://www.thegrint.com

 

Anyone who doesn’t, that is expecting shots, is too lazy to gamble any real money with. 

What @Augster said - in the future, just require everyone to have an "official" hcp if its that big of deal.  Live and your learn I guess...

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On 5/23/2024 at 8:23 AM, st1800e said:

He’s now got some scores to start a cap on grint or ghin.  And he’s got some $$ now to pay for it.  
Tell him he has to do this and keep it up, or he’s out.  
It’s called “Peer Review”.  

We did this to a couple guys a few years ago. Get handicap. Post scores. Anything other than that, we love that you can come play and your company and you get to keep your $$ to boot. Your score won't be factored into any winnings. They were reluctant the last round they both weren't in the pool, because they would have won enough to pay for the trip. Then they joined up and got a GHIN. One guy didn't post rounds we knew he played (2 leagues) and we had to let him know he failed peer-review and still wasn't in the bets the next trip. He got the message. 

 

We're not out to "get you", we have to have a level playing field. 

 

That said, I am in absolute love with @Mookieb10's rule of playing off your 12 month low. It's readily available on GHIN. 

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