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Hitting a ( real) fade


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I am sick of my ball flight. It starts  at or right of my target and cuts. Sometimes it starts right and goes right. Really weak compression and distance. I have been trying to hit draws but I can’t repeat it.  
I know my path is mostly left and face is square to open. My question is this:  what are the conditions needed to hit a shot that starts left of the target and fades back to it?

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Face needs to closed to path to start it left. Not really a fan of this fade because it's too close to being  dead pull or worse, a pull draw. Rather have it start straight or slightly right 

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2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Face needs to closed to path to start it left. Not really a fan of this fade because it's too close to being  dead pull or worse, a pull draw. Rather have it start straight or slightly right 

Agree, not to mention that the pull fade can get very spinny and go nowhere. 

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34 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

No. If face is closed to path it will be a draw. 

 

Face needs to be closed to target to start it left. Face needs to be open to path to make it a fade. If you have both conditions, you have a pull fade. 

This is correct and my post should be removed

Edited by BlueDragonKorea
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5 minutes ago, BlueDragonKorea said:

If you still believe in the pre-2000s ball flight laws, sure...

No, this is based on the "new" ball flight laws. Ball starts [mostly] where the face is pointing. Ball curves based on face to path. If face is closed to target, it starts left. If it's open to path, it curves right. Pull fade. 

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28 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

No. If face is closed to path it will be a draw. 

 

Face needs to be closed to target to start it left. Face needs to be open to path to make it a fade. If you have both conditions, you have a pull fade. 

 

9 minutes ago, BlueDragonKorea said:

If you still believe in the pre-2000s ball flight laws, sure...


No he's correct, that is the updated ball flight laws, not the old ones.

The "old" understanding was that path determined start line and face determined curvature i.e. if you swing left the ball will start left. What launch monitors confirmed was that the ball starts wherever the face is pointing and curves based on the difference between that angle and the club path. A "proper" fade for a righty therefore requires a path that is left of target AND a clubface that is also left of target, but slightly *right* of the path.

What the OP is describing therefore is a face that is too open relative to the path, which when swinging left causes a ball that starts *at* the target and curves away from it, or even starts right of the target and curves further in the worst cases.

Edited by Valtiel
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6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 


No he's correct, that is the updated ball flight laws, not the old ones.

The "old" understanding was that path determined start line and face determined curvature i.e. if you swing left the ball will start left. What launch monitors confirmed was that the ball starts wherever the face is pointing and curves based on the difference between that angle and the club path. A "proper" fade for a righty therefore requires a path that is left of target AND a clubface that is also left of target, but slightly *right* of the path.

What the OP is describing therefore is a face that is too open relative to the path, which when swinging left causes a ball that starts *at* the target and curves away from it, or even starts right of the target and curves further in the worst cases.

Ah... Yes, I read too quickly and assumed wrong. Sorry @betarhoalphadelta

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1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Agree, not to mention that the pull fade can get very spinny and go nowhere. 

Saw a video that the modern "power" fade had a neutral to slightly in to out path and a face slightly open to that. Results in a push fade, which is offset by lining up left of target. Don't remember the video, but what would be the pros/cons of that shape?

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My advice (donning my asbestos underpants) is don’t try to hit a fade.  I hate, hate, hate to hit anything resembling a fade and refuse to do it, even when a hole desires it.  I just take the risky line and hit it straight to a slight draw.  I have my personal reasons for not hitting fades and I know they’re a useful skill, but I hate ‘em and I’ve been able to play some very good golf without ever hitting them.

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20 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is where the myth of the draw goes farther than a fade comes from.

 

But the myth comes from the fact(?) that maybe 1 in 100 can hit it both ways with the same/ideal/best launch conditions.

 

Personally, I've never seen the unicorn who can do that. You've witnessed, taught, and paid attention to far more golfers than I ever will. Have you seen this guy/girl ? And if so, how does one manage it ?

 

 

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4 hours ago, rthrbgolfing said:

I am sick of my ball flight. It starts  at or right of my target and cuts. Sometimes it starts right and goes right. Really weak compression and distance. I have been trying to hit draws but I can’t repeat it.  
I know my path is mostly left and face is square to open. My question is this:  what are the conditions needed to hit a shot that starts left of the target and fades back to it?

 

Have you tried just picking a target line to the left of your desired landing area? Or are you already doing that?

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3 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Have you tried just picking a target line to the left of your desired landing area? Or are you already doing that?

 

Been there. Just can't get those wicked beginner slices out of our heads, can we ? 51683a_42ddb696afc442db8322aaeb315a8842~

 

I take some comfort knowing I'm not the only one. 👍

Edited by nsxguy

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40 minutes ago, Andrews22 said:

Saw a video that the modern "power" fade had a neutral to slightly in to out path and a face slightly open to that. Results in a push fade, which is offset by lining up left of target. Don't remember the video, but what would be the pros/cons of that shape?

That's what I strive for as I'm in to out but it's all about face angle for me.  On days I'm on, my face is square to slightly open.  Ball starts straight to slightly ride and bleeds 5-10 yards.  On bad days it's a nasty duck hook or a 30 yard push.  Pros are that ball speed is still high and it's predictable.  Cons are that controlling face angle in general is tricky and if the face is left too open, that gentle fade turns into a nasty block out to the right. 

Edited by phizzy30

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11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

But the myth comes from the fact(?) that maybe 1 in 100 can hit it both ways with the same/ideal/best launch conditions.

 

Personally, I've never seen the unicorn who can do that. You've witnessed, taught, and paid attention to far more golfers than I ever will. Have you seen this guy/girl ? And if so, how does one manage it ?

 

 

Tiger can work the ball both ways.  He was the master at that during his prime.

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5 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Tiger can work the ball both ways.  He was the master at that during his prime.

 

*I* can work the ball both ways, just not with the same launch conditions. 

 

My fade inevitably flies higher and spins more. My draw flies lower and spins less.

 

I am not able to and can't figure out, how to hit the opposite (low fade or a high draw) with the same ideal (for me of course) launch numbers. 51683a_68e6d7ad7b364e5faba39b4735f0b059~

 

 

Edited by nsxguy

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1 hour ago, Andrews22 said:

Saw a video that the modern "power" fade had a neutral to slightly in to out path and a face slightly open to that. Results in a push fade, which is offset by lining up left of target. Don't remember the video, but what would be the pros/cons of that shape?

Just my opinion but one formed through years of playing and teaching. The golf swing by nature leads to the club “wanting” to stay open. The guys who can hit a very powerful fade the starts slightly right and drops right are they ones that allow it to stay open  and fall right. They don’t force the face to close. The club stays on path or slightly out to in without worrying about closing the face. The result is a very powerful flight that I refer to as a planned block. Aim 5-10 yards left of target and let the ball start right. There are no unnecessary actions and you just swing down your line without flipping it over. Some of the best drivers of all time hit the block/fade. Not the pull fade variety 

Too many people think you have to make the ball fade with some unneeded adjustments and swing variations. Rather than making it fade if you let it fade naturally you can swing on plane and just drill it down your path 

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2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is where the myth of the draw goes farther than a fade comes from.

Hahaha never understood this one either. The longest(and most accurate) drivers of every era hit a fade. 

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Like others, the draw tends to be my shape, probably through years of trying to get a draw, and being told the draw is the shape, last while i have practiced the fade, a year ago couldn't do it on purpose, now i can hit a nice fade, but it comes at a cost of a few yards, yes i know fades can be as long as draws, but for me and my swing, i kind of feel that the fade will always be less as i just change my aim and swing to leave the face open a little, i just live with that because i don't have the time or ability to keep it up to the same levels, and it works for me at my course on the holes i want to hit a fade off the tee, or into a green.

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Its all in set up. If you are properly finding the slot in your normal swing, changing set up will produce the path. I simply drop my lead foot back. If I swing normally, the club wont get deep, my shoulders dont turn as much, and I swing across my body to the left more in the downswing. For a draw, I do the opposite.

 

I was taught when I was young to change grip and use my wrists to shape the ball. That doesnt really produce consistent shapes. Ideally to hit slight shapes, you only change feet set up. Be forewarned: If your normal set up is not ideal or you have a glaring issue in your normal seing, its quite difficult to work on shot shapes.

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17 hours ago, rthrbgolfing said:

I am sick of my ball flight. It starts  at or right of my target and cuts. Sometimes it starts right and goes right. Really weak compression and distance. I have been trying to hit draws but I can’t repeat it.  
I know my path is mostly left and face is square to open. My question is this:  what are the conditions needed to hit a shot that starts left of the target and fades back to it?

 

BTW I know everyone has answered your question, but IMHO it's the wrong question. When the ballflight is paired with the bolded part in your quote, it makes me think that you should be working on your swing in general rather than chasing a specific ballflight. 

 

Most players with a weak compress wipey fade are significantly OTT, and are making a bunch of moves in their swing that make the swing inefficient and full of power-leaking moves. Those are big problems that need to be fixed, not just chasing a shot shape. 

 

Find a competent instructor, or hell, post swings here, and get to fixing the bigger problems. 

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The problem that most don't realize is that a true power fade is one where you actually can swing at the actual target to create it.  Most know that a fade (for a righty) is a club face left of target with a path more left some amount depending on how much curvature is desired.  But what is often neglected is the fact that you are not swing left/ over the top, but that you are still directing the momentum of the swing right of your intended start line and it is not much different than hitting a draw.  

 

Imagine looking down on this diagram for a top down view and also tilted at the same angle of your shoulders (The lower left quadrant is the most important section because it would represent shaft parallel on the down swing to the low point of the swing arc): 

The Ellipse and the Atom — Greg Egan

When you tilt these vectors to match your swing plane then  they will begin to point out to the right and this thus this model represents one of those vectors: 

image.png.9a77e6d27b5ce8901e5b2549b6e02a5f.png

 

The pencil mark on the trash can lid represents the low point and the pencil is the club face at impact so you can see how if you begin to move in a semicircle to the right that the pencil will begin to point at the target line: 

image.png.969565d5a61d5b87357eea95656dd68c.png

But you will want to keep going until the face is pointing the desired amount left of the target line.  Once you have the face where you want it you will hold it in place and keep rotating your plane/ shoulder line more left to create a desired amount of curvature. 

 

In all cases the momentum of your swing will be directed right of your start line to maintain leverage. This particular shot will come off higher but if you want the shot to come off lower you would just close the face prior to taking your grip and then go through the same procedure. It is the exact same process for driver but driver is struck at different location along the swing arc.  

 

Driver location along the swing arc for reference: 

image.png.004544d4256e7db71622b38fff047efe.pngimage.png.51ccaf9da1f68e4dcc3a47200d7e259e.pngimage.png.5c8438027be7abdb9f49f4678f7f3cb3.png

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15 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

But the myth comes from the fact(?) that maybe 1 in 100 can hit it both ways with the same/ideal/best launch conditions.

 

Personally, I've never seen the unicorn who can do that. You've witnessed, taught, and paid attention to far more golfers than I ever will. Have you seen this guy/girl ? And if so, how does one manage it ?

 

 

I like that image you posted.  But I am not sure if I understand the differences between old and new flight laws; never focused on them.   If I want a draw, my face aims to the right of the target line, for a fade, my face aims to the left of my target line.  LOL that's about all I know on the topic.

 

Usually, I contort my body at impact to get the extreme trajectory.

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15 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

But the myth comes from the fact(?) that maybe 1 in 100 can hit it both ways with the same/ideal/best launch conditions.

 

Personally, I've never seen the unicorn who can do that. You've witnessed, taught, and paid attention to far more golfers than I ever will. Have you seen this guy/girl ? And if so, how does one manage it ?

 

 

Assuming you hit either one solid, it's true.  A well hit draw doesn't go any farther than a well hit fade.  Honestly, most of my personal longest drives are fades.  If you are opening the face and swinging left to hit a cut then sure, the cut will go shorter because you are adding loft to the club and then heavily manipulating your path to swing hard left which inherently will slow your swing down. 

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25 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I like that image you posted.  But I am not sure if I understand the differences between old and new flight laws; never focused on them.   If I want a draw, my face aims to the right of the target line, for a fade, my face aims to the left of my target line.  LOL that's about all I know on the topic.

 

Usually, I contort my body at impact to get the extreme trajectory.

 

As Valtiel posted, it's merely the corrected understanding that the face dictates the starting point rather than the path. See below.

 

There's a lot to be said for how the mind and body work together, especially visualization. You seem to be describing a very "natural" swing.

 

Visualization has long been considered pretty important to playing a variety of different sports, but especially so in golf because you actually have the time to do it.

 

A lot of other sports are "read and react".

 

Visualize how you want the ball to travel and your mind will "help" your body do it. 

 

 

16 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The "old" understanding was that path determined start line and face determined curvature i.e. if you swing left the ball will start left. What launch monitors confirmed was that the ball starts wherever the face is pointing and curves based on the difference between that angle and the club path.

 

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1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

I like that image you posted.  But I am not sure if I understand the differences between old and new flight laws; never focused on them.   If I want a draw, my face aims to the right of the target line, for a fade, my face aims to the left of my target line.  LOL that's about all I know on the topic.

 

Usually, I contort my body at impact to get the extreme trajectory.

LOL...The club face is responsible for start direction an d the plane/ shoulder line is responsible for creating curvature (new BFL's, and the old ones were the opposite).  All of those vectors will fly straight, until you create a difference between face and path and this occurs when you hold the face at point where you want to start the shot while continuing to move your plane.  Driver and shots that you intend to hit up on are the exact same with the only difference being they are struck after low point of the swing arc.  The swing motion for all clubs is the exact same but it has to be understood where along the arc the ball is being stuck.  This is why I always say that learning impact should be day one learning for everyone.  A power fade is literally a shot where the ball is struck before the club face squares to the arc and a draw is one where the ball is struck after the face was square to the arc and both of those scenarios tilts the spin axis and creates curvature.   

 

Any shot struck square to the swing arc will fly straight so a ball struck anywhere along this arc will fly straight because the face to path will be zero. 

The Ellipse and the Atom — Greg Egan 

 

The athlete still has to work out what their intended target line  and when a given shot must be struck but the earlier/faster that these principals are ingrained the better because the athlete will never ask why a certain shot happened. It also makes hitting the ball straight pretty easy.    

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      Tanner Gore - WITB - 2024 The Ascendant presented by Blue
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ryan Gerard's custom & 1 off Cameron putters - 2024 The Ascendant presented by Blue
      L.A.B. Golf custom Mezz 1 - 2024 The Ascendant presented by Blue
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 5 replies
    • 2024 ISCO Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 ISCO Championship - Monday #1
      2024 ISCO Championship - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      James Nicholas - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Marcus Kinhult - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Adrien Saddier - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Stephen Stallings, Jr. - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Espen Kofstad - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Daniel Iceman - Kentucky PGA Section Champ - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Cooper Musselman - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Alex Goff - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Angel Hidalgo - WITB - 2024 ISCO Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Kevin Streelman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 ISCO Championship
      Cameron putter - 2024 ISCO Championship
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 3 replies
    • 2024 John Deere Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 John Deere Classic - Monday #1
      2024 John Deere Classic - Monday #2
      2024 John Deere Classic - Tuesday #1
      2024 John Deere Classic - Tuesday #2
      2024 John Deere Classic - Tuesday #3
      2024 John Deere Classic - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Jason Day - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Josh Teater - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Michael Thorbjornsen - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Austin Smotherman - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Joseph Bramlett - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      C.T. Pan - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Anders Albertson - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Seung Yul Noh - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Blake Hathcoat - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Jimmy Stanger - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Cole Sherwood - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Anders Larson - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Bill Haas - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Tommy "2 Gloves" Gainey WITB – 2024 John Deere Classic
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Garrick Higgo - 2 Aretera shafts in the bag - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Jhonattan Vegas' custom Cameron putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      2 new Super Stroke Marvel comics grips - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Swag blade putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Swag Golf - Joe Dirt covers - 2024 John Deere Classic
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 3 replies
    • 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Hayden Springer - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Jackson Koivun - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Callum Tarren - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Luke Clanton - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jason Dufner's custom 3-D printed Cobra putter - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 11 replies
    • Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 US Open
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 US Open
      • 52 replies

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