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What does this bowlers drill help with?


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Dennis Sales posted a Bowlers drill on X. On his X post with this drill he wrote:

 

“Lately I’ve seen much on ground reaction forces being a NECESSITY to create vast club head speed. That golfers should go to the gym and work on their legs. I have not been to gym regularly in like 20 years. In last 12 years, I’ve gone maybe 10 times. In both posted videos, I’m not using ground reaction forces like any of them talk about, I did not extend my leg to jump but I still hit my stock normal speed 7 iron. Not only was that my normal 7 iron speed it was my normal carry distance. ”

 

Have any of you ever used this drill? What does it help with?

 

source: https://x.com/dennissalesgolf/status/1800528639659778435

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1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

Have any of you ever used this drill? What does it help with?

 

source: https://x.com/dennissalesgolf/status/1800528639659778435

 

I think he's demonstrating that you can still swing fast without nearly as much GRF.

 

See also…

 

 

I've been on the "GRF is over-rated" (it's more nuanced than that but… that's the nickel title) bandwagon for… almost a decade? Less so lately, but when force plates, etc. first came out, you couldn't have a golf conversation without it going there. Dennis is picking up the torch a bit and running with it (I haven't talked to Dennis about any of this, I'm not claiming anything like that). We went to Penn State when Mike Duffy was still there and made a bunch of swings where we literally jumped in the air, etc.

 

So… again, I think it's more demonstration than drill/exercise?

 

I'll reach out to Dennis. It's been awhile.

 

P.S. Edit to add: "It is the combination of both [exercise/drill and demonstration]. The concept works really well for those who extend too fast and for those who don’t get forward shaft lean."

 

Edited by iacas
Added P.S.
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13 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I think he's demonstrating that you can still swing fast without nearly as much GRF.

 

See also…

 

 

I've been on the "GRF is over-rated" (it's more nuanced than that but… that's the nickel title) bandwagon for… almost a decade? Less so lately, but when force plates, etc. first came out, you couldn't have a golf conversation without it going there. Dennis is picking up the torch a bit and running with it (I haven't talked to Dennis about any of this, I'm not claiming anything like that). We went to Penn State when Mike Duffy was still there and made a bunch of swings where we literally jumped in the air, etc.

 

So… again, I think it's more demonstration than drill/exercise?

 

I'll reach out to Dennis. It's been awhile.

 

P.S. Edit to add: "It is the combination of both [exercise/drill and demonstration]. The concept works really well for those who extend too fast and for those who don’t get forward shaft lean."

 

My understanding is that currently there are 3 ground force peaks measured; horizontal, torque and vertical.  Is it possible the bowler drill is using a lot of torque GF?  Does the system that you have measure torque?  I remember Scott Lynn saying something to the effect that adding torque GF never hurts anyone's swing or always helps something like that. 

 

At any rate it seems to me that more speed has to show up somewhere in GF measurement?  

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I had a lesson recently with Dennis and he had me doing this drill. My issue was that I had an arms backswing and too much body in my downswing, leaving my right arm stuck behind me. This drill helped quiet my lower body on the downswing so I could get my arms down in front of my body. I am hitting the ball much better for now (at least on the driving range). 

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I briefly tried this drill and had to really slow down just to hit the ball. I was pressed for time so didn't really get to work with the drill. After just trying it four times, I can't believe how much speed Dennis was able to get with it. I can imagine learning to move your arms fast with this drill would likely translate to more speed in the regular swing.

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The drill is trail foot back, trail foot should just feel dead. So this really takes all the lower body (GRF) out of the equation. If you're like me and used to spinning hips or shoulders out then it takes a minute to get used to.

 

In my case (ymmv) if my trail leg did anything but just get dragged along for the ride I was doing it wrong. From the down the line view I didn't want to see a gap between my knees in the follow through. The gap indicated I was engaging my trail leg too much for this drill. As a trail knee lunger this is easier said than done. Less Morikawa and more like the rest of these guys:

 

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As you and I mentioned over in the thread iacas linked, based on Dennis posts last week, it seems like he favors speed coming from his wrists. Cast B maybe?

 

After getting used to the drill I'd say I don't loose much distance at all.

 

Edited by KD1
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Seems like an exaggerated version of the flamingo drill. Forces you to use left foot more and not throw the right hip at the ball. Don't do it often, but I find the feels useful

 

It's like pre-setting the force that is right foot going away from the target line ala hockey slapshot / bowling 

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As someone who has always spun open too quickly and struggled to stop my trail side from crashing, this drill is very helpful. I'm working my way back up after a long break and I think I may use this as a big part of my practice, as it seems to kill three birds with one stone: 1) back to target longer; 2) keeps right hip back and forces left hip to move more properly; and 3) limits slide. 

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59 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

@dvq9654, I’ve only had time to try it a couple times. I’ve got to go very slow to hit the ball. Anything from a moderate swing speed to close to normal speed and I miss the ball completely. 


keep in mind that if you are doing this right, you should be hitting it off the toe and probably missing it to the right. If you are hitting in the heel and or to the left, I would venture to say you are not accomplishing what you are seeking. 

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51 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:


keep in mind that if you are doing this right, you should be hitting it off the toe and probably missing it to the right. If you are hitting in the heel and or to the left, I would venture to say you are not accomplishing what you are seeking. 


Yeah, I have no idea how I’m supposed to perform this drill which could result in building a bad habit if I use it. 

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Never thought for a moment of using a bowling drill, but bowled in a league during HS.  Bowling teaches weight transition timing and release.

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4 hours ago, Golf_Goof said:

 

 

I'd think Dennis's version is version 2 of this one. I think it builds on what the tall guy talks about but emphasizes activating the arms and feeling shaft lean. Tall guy talks about firing the shoulders which would be death move for me.

 

maybe it wasn't in the twitter post that OP linked but in another post somewhere Dennis asked 'how low can you go?' The point there was get the trail leg really far back, squat down in the lead leg, force your self to figure out how to get a ton of shaft lean. The lower you squat into the lead leg the further forward you have to force your hands at address and impact... if you're doing it right.

Edited by KD1
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I agree with Dennis that vertical is hard to time. I’ve had several conversations with Steve Furlonger about it and he always said he’s never seen someone with vertical forces too early. Vertical forces are generally the braking force because as soon as the butt of the club gets pulled upwards the club starts to “release”. 
 

All Dennis is doing is primarily braking by the end range of motion of his hips instead of vertical force. In his videos his hips are still moving aggressively and generating some “x factor stretch” in transition. 
 

Moe Norman probably had the most bent lead knee in the history of people of played great golf and he was known for being the straightest. So for those people who don’t have great athleticism or have mobility issues finding a way to just manage with 2 of the 3 GRFs may be the optimal solution for better golf.
 

Not sure if it’s true anymore but it was once said that you only need one GRF above pga tour average to have potential for tour like speed and only professional long drive guys had all 3 GRF above tour average. 

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No, not according to him because that is what i thought as well. Most people get to their lead side late or never and the lead leg is the primary vertical force producer. 
 

So if someone slides too long, their vertical forces will surely be late as the lead leg will still be bent too far into the downswing. That’s why most people who slide too long have EE or very little hip rotation. Scottie Scheffler exhibits a tiny bit of butt coming off the wall in the downswing on some swings and the GRF guys would say that is because his verticals were late and he couldn’t push early enough with he lead leg to get hip lead hip more away from the ball. Obviously nobody is changing his swing because of this. 

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