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Moe Norman vs. Ben Hogan The Ultimate Showdown


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The Chateau Course was 90% poana & bumpy but The Woodlands Course was perfect bent & in great shape....Moe might of missed a fairway on that course...tight & hilly!!! Highly rec the Woodlands at Chateau Elan for the quality & price....we didn't play their premier 18 The Legends....but the sup over there must be watching over The Woodlands and not the Chateau...totally different.

 

Augusta was perfect of course but they let too many folks in (most I've ever seen) and there wasn't enough restrooms for the men(10-15 minute lines)...no line for the ladies :good:....didn't get to enjoy any frosty brew due to the restroom dilema....prob won't go back on a Monday either as several players were not present.

 

I got some great footage on 11 & 16...didn't see any bird's eye on 16...tried to go up top on 15 bleachers to shoot down but security had the top row closed.

 

Sorry about the damage...we'll try it again next time around :D

 

Lake

 

 

Just part of life.......can't control the weather.......Great to hear you guy's had a fantastic time...... :blink:

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So the general agreement is that they were equal in accuracy? What do you think about this slicefixer?

 

 

Probably pretty darn close, but, I'd have to give the edge to Moe as he was quite a bit shorter.......the further the ball gets from the player the more the same "error" is multiplied.......but, they both had virtually 100% "control" over their golf ball when swinging well and in their prime........heck, till the day they hung em' up........

 

 

Hogan was the best by far as he had control over curving and trajectory that Moe couldn't handle. I give Moe a slight edge over Trevino for the 2 spot. Hogan could, among a bag of incredible choices, hit long irons that climbed like Lear jets on takeoff and curve them in either direction and control the amount of curve, and do it with a tournament on the line. Moe was like Trevino, pretty much a low to mid trajectory player.

 

When I say this I leave Slice and the gang out of it as they already know...but for the rest, maybe you should take note that when a player like Trevor plays well, as he has through three rounds of the 2008 Masters, he is compared to HOGAN, not Moe or any other player.

 

Fats

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So the general agreement is that they were equal in accuracy? What do you think about this slicefixer?

 

 

Probably pretty darn close, but, I'd have to give the edge to Moe as he was quite a bit shorter.......the further the ball gets from the player the more the same "error" is multiplied.......but, they both had virtually 100% "control" over their golf ball when swinging well and in their prime........heck, till the day they hung em' up........

 

 

Hogan was the best by far as he had control over curving and trajectory that Moe couldn't handle. I give Moe a slight edge over Trevino for the 2 spot. Hogan could, among a bag of incredible choices, hit long irons that climbed like Lear jets on takeoff and curve them in either direction and control the amount of curve, and do it with a tournament on the line. Moe was like Trevino, pretty much a low to mid trajectory player.

 

When I say this I leave Slice and the gang out of it as they already know...but for the rest, maybe you should take note that when a player like Trevor plays well, as he has through three rounds of the 2008 Masters, he is compared to HOGAN, not Moe or any other player.

 

Fats

 

 

Yep, said the same thing many, many times here........ :good:

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Thanks for the response fats. It seems as if Moe was obssessed with being able to constantly hit a mid-trajectory, straight shot that didn't curve very much in either direction. He was very short and had little control over his trajectory and curvature of the shot. Hogan could do both. He was well known for being able to shape the ball in all directions and hit the ball high and low on command. Hogan was also very long, which is especially amazing due to his short stature. However, Hogan could also be as repetitive as Moe. Butch Harmon said regarding Hogan: "If you hung a hollahoop in the air at a certain altitude, every shot would have gone through it, because he controlled the trajectory so much." That quote is from The Ben Hogan Collection. But anyway, the reason I posted this thread was to disprove all these rumors about Moe so many people have come up with. I am tired of reading articles and seeing videos in which people state that Moe had the greatest swing of all time. In reality, it would seem Hogan was the greatest ball striker who ever lived. I'm not even sure if Moe would be second, because it cannot be denied that distance is important, especially today.

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Would it be fair to say then that Ben was the greatest ball striker, and Moe the most consistent?

 

In response to Fats, I can assure you that my Moe Norman story is 100% accurate and certainly not BS, as you so eloquently described it. I watched the man one-hop 20 balls into a shag bag held by our assistant pro some 160-180 yards out.

 

I also saw him, in the same demonstration, hit two balls -- one right after the other, a draw and a fade -- that collided in mid-air. Saw Chi-Chi do the same thing in Cape Cod one year, so not that uncommon, but hopefully that'll dispell the myth that the man couldn't shape the ball.

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Thanks for the response fats. It seems as if Moe was obssessed with being able to constantly hit a mid-trajectory, straight shot that didn't curve very much in either direction. He was very short and had little control over his trajectory and curvature of the shot. Hogan could do both. He was well known for being able to shape the ball in all directions and hit the ball high and low on command. Hogan was also very long, which is especially amazing due to his short stature. However, Hogan could also be as repetitive as Moe. Butch Harmon said regarding Hogan: "If you hung a hollahoop in the air at a certain altitude, every shot would have gone through it, because he controlled the trajectory so much." That quote is from The Ben Hogan Collection. But anyway, the reason I posted this thread was to disprove all these rumors about Moe so many people have come up with. I am tired of reading articles and seeing videos in which people state that Moe had the greatest swing of all time. In reality, it would seem Hogan was the greatest ball striker who ever lived. I'm not even sure if Moe would be second, because it cannot be denied that distance is important, especially today.

 

 

Excellent post Macfan...You'd pretty much have to have a cutoff line for the period when technology really gained a foot hold in golf. The 60* wedge was the most major until the metal woods and balls became to incredibly long and accurate. Hogan used balls and equipment that would be looked at these days as sub-standard...we could only wonder what he would have done off these smooth tightly cut fairways, smooth fast greens, extra springy drivers, square grooved irons and balls that offer different spin and flight choices.

 

I remember Greg Norman bitching about the 60* wedge and how it allowed everyday players the ability to hit shots around the greens that were mostly reserved for those with great talent when using stronger lofted SW's was the only choice.

 

Everything has changed. I used to play a very bold and aggressive game...but I played for less than tip money compared to what they play for now...Would I be affected by this huge prize money? Play less agressively? In all honesty I believe I would.

 

Gary Player is a huge Hogan fan...for him to say Trevor is playing more like Hogan that anyone else since Hogan is THE ultimate tribute...Gary always tried to find Hogan's secret...we talked about that often...He was convinced he found it and that was his main drive to attempt to win in each decade...He's getting old now...I hope for him this was his last Masters. The game is just too damned difficult when you reach age 70 and over.

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Would it be fair to say then that Ben was the greatest ball striker, and Moe the most consistent?

 

In response to Fats, I can assure you that my Moe Norman story is 100% accurate and certainly not BS, as you so eloquently described it. I watched the man one-hop 20 balls into a shag bag held by our assistant pro some 160-180 yards out.

 

I also saw him, in the same demonstration, hit two balls -- one right after the other, a draw and a fade -- that collided in mid-air. Saw Chi-Chi do the same thing in Cape Cod one year, so not that uncommon, but hopefully that'll dispell the myth that the man couldn't shape the ball.

 

Moe could curve the ball...hell, a lot of people can curve the ball, but nobody ever had the control Hogan did.

One hopping the ball to a caddy holding a shag bag isn't exactly a great feat, you know that....but Moe couldn't even come close to the variety of shots Hogan could execute. Trevino was a super ball striker...We liked Moe...we practiced together quite a few times when Lee had a golf course under construction in Central Fl. It was fun talking to Moe...I'm a fan of his...but these stories get better and better as the years go by...ROFL

 

I'm well aware Chi Chi did the balls collide trick...I saw it myself...However, I also saw him miss that maybe 200 times after that over the years...I'm sure in the yeas ahead it will be said he could do it anytime he wanted to. Hogans shot making is recorded deeply in PGA Tour and Major victories.

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I wish there was some sort of scientific way to prove Hogan or Norman or whomever was the best ball striker ever.

 

 

There is not so basically all we have is opinions.

 

 

I wonder in reality just how many of the people who are convinced Hogan is the best ball striker ever or Norman or whomever is ever actually saw them hit a ball in person

 

I find it interesting that on this site Hogan could work the ball both ways and hit it high or low.

 

Yet everything else I ever heard or read he despised a ball that went right to left and basically hit everything with a low cut.

 

Again I am not stating this is fact I do not know the only time I ever saw the man play was on TV in I believe what was his last Masters thinking 1966.

 

Its just a very interesting debate with no hope of a conclusion

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Obviously Moe could shape the ball. He was a touring pro, renowned for his ball striking ability. But Hogan's control over the ball was eerie. I'd like to agree with fats in that hitting the ball in the shag bag is not very impressive. I've seen others (Mac O'Grady) perform similar feats of accuracy, and Hogan was known for hitting it in the bag as well. The point is Hogan's ability to control the exact curvature, the exact distance, and the exact altitude was as close to perfection as humanly possible. Jack Nicklaus described Hogan's ability as disturbing. He said Hogan could hit hundreds of balls and not mis-hit a single one. Moe was great, but Ben was better. It's quite simple.

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As a newbie on this post, I thought I'd add my two cents worth!

 

I never had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Hogan strike a golf ball in person but I did watch and play a lot with Moe Norman! Moe truly was a great ball striker and while most of the stories have been embellished over the years, I did witness him shoot a 65 in a pro-pro event with another senior professional who added one birdie to the card. In that round, Moe hit the flagstick three times.

 

Also interesting to note that what Moe thought he did in the golfswing was different than what the camera picked up. His "one plane" swing had a bit of a re-route and he held the clubhead off through impact. But, he did it again and again and again!

 

It was a pleasure and an honor to have met and played golf with him!

 

KDRealpro

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this is a great post, but doesn't need debate. moe norman was a superior ball striker to hogan. i might even go as far as to say far superior. hogan cupped his left wrist with his strong grip and fade the ball. hogan was an incredible ball striker, simply amazing. but, moe norman could hit the ball straight as an arrow. he really could make a golf ball do anything he wanted. left, right, high low and of course, straight as an arrow. the real thing was, without cupping his wrist, hogan hit a hook. with the cup, a fade. could he hit it dead straight? we may never know. moe norman was a superior ball striker. case and point. i once heard a story about moes caddie saying driver-nine iron to the green. moe hit his nine iron off the tee, and then his driver into the green. but, overall, both were extremely talented ball strikers who just led very different lives.

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SammyGray that was a joke post right??? That was too good lol. Hogan in his prime could hit it ANY which way..You won't win every Major venue not being able to strike the ball like he did. That was a good laugh though I'm sorry.

 

 

Has to be....... :good: They were both great at controlling their golf ball, but, Hogan was FAR superior in that he could hit it quite a bit further......could vary the trajectory/curvature dramatically on demand and UNDER EXTREME PRESSURE......etc....etc.....etc.

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this is a great post, but doesn't need debate. moe norman was a superior ball striker to hogan. i might even go as far as to say far superior. hogan cupped his left wrist with his strong grip and fade the ball. hogan was an incredible ball striker, simply amazing. but, moe norman could hit the ball straight as an arrow. he really could make a golf ball do anything he wanted. left, right, high low and of course, straight as an arrow. the real thing was, without cupping his wrist, hogan hit a hook. with the cup, a fade. could he hit it dead straight? we may never know. moe norman was a superior ball striker. case and point. i once heard a story about moes caddie saying driver-nine iron to the green. moe hit his nine iron off the tee, and then his driver into the green. but, overall, both were extremely talented ball strikers who just led very different lives.

 

 

Sir, I can confidently say you are seriously lacking in knowledage about golf. So WHAT if Hogan cupped his wrist? He could do it all. Draw, Fade, Straight, that was his practice routine. Just watch the SWWoG match. Even well past his prime Hogan hit the ball both ways. He could change the trajectory at will, and left the most amazing golfers and instructors (Nicklaus, Player, Harmon and many others) flabbergasted by his ability. Moe tried twice to contend in the Masters. Played horribly both times and withdrew after two rounds each time. Hogan won 9 majors and 64 tournaments overall. Hogan hit the ball a LONG way, Moe was short, and as such, he would not survive on today's courses. Moe paused his core during his swing to allow his hands to catch up with his body. The fact that his body and hands were out of sync is a swing flaw that never allowed him to hit the ball with much power. Hogan's body and hands were perfectly syncronized, so he could hit the ball with powerful lower body action, and a fast, perfectly timed arm swing. His incredicle lag allowed him to apply maximum force to the golf ball. As stated by Butch Harmon, Hogan could hit the ball precisely the same trajectory over and over and over again. He truly mastered the golf swing and could hit FIRs and GIRs in majors like there was no tomorrow. In the 1960 US Open, Hogan hit 70, that's right, 70 GIRs. Before he made his swing change, there was a stretch of time when Hogan played 12 rounds of golf and missed only two, yes two, GIR. Hogan hit pins all the time before he made his swing change and became angry with himself for doing so. As a result, he consistently hit the ball around the pin maybe 8 feet short or so. Moe has NOTHING on Hogan. Great, maybe he could hit the ball straight. Who cares? Shot shaping can be significantly more beneficial than hitting the ball dead straight. Hogan had WAY more power, WAY more control over the ball in terms of curvature and trajectory, and was probably just as, if not MORE accurate than Moe. Your arguments for Moe's accuracy have no real backing and are woefully feeble. I know a few people who have seen Moe, and not been exceptionally impressed with his abilities. One particular person witnessed many great ball strikers, including Moe Norman on MANY occasions, not just one time like you, as well as George Knudson and Mac O'Grady on many occasions. He said both Knudson and Mac were MUCH more powerful and about as accurate as Moe, and had MUCH more control over the ball. I have heard similar comments from others. Remember, it's easier to be accurate when you hit the ball shorter! Also, Knudson watched Hogan, and I am pretty sure he saw Moe too. Knudson stated Ben was the best ball striker he had ever seen, and he modeled his own swing after Ben. In short, Moe Norman has NOTHING on Ben Hogan in terms of ball striking, not on the range, and ESPECIALLY not on the course. P.S. Hogan used a weak grip after his swing change and a neutral grip (according to Jim McLean) prior to his swing change. Just goes to show how little you know.

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I'm not going to put anymore effort into this with you, if you go back and analyze your initial post in this thread it is plagued with inaccuracy and ill wording. People who have seen both of these men hit have already weighed in on this, and hogan could hit it ANY which way he wanted...Having a cupped wrist Obviously has no ill-effect towards ones ability to strike the ball. 9 majors vs 0 majors is a testament to Hogans swing...and under pressure...with less than average putting skills.

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that's cool dude. i didn't mean to get angry. sorry. ok, youtube. side by side comparison. here's the link!!! once again sorry for gettin angry.

 

 

 

copy and past this into you tube.

 

Oh man, getting RickRolled is worse than I thought!!! :good: :D :blink:

I could be wrong
I've been wrong before
I'll be wrong again
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I'm not going to put anymore effort into this with you, if you go back and analyze your initial post in this thread it is plagued with inaccuracy and ill wording. People who have seen both of these men hit have already weighed in on this, and hogan could hit it ANY which way he wanted...Having a cupped wrist Obviously has no ill-effect towards ones ability to strike the ball. 9 majors vs 0 majors is a testament to Hogans swing...and under pressure...with less than average putting skills.

 

 

Shag who said they saw both men hit and was it in there prime. Cause most of these people including me have never seen either of them hit it period in person

 

Which makes this thread hilarious.

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As a junior I had the privilege of watching Moe Norman hit at a number of demonstrations. At one such demonstration he sent our assistant pro out into the fairway some 160-180 yards away with a shag bag and proceeded to hit some 20 balls right at him. After two or three shots our assistant began catching them in his shag bag on one hop, he never had to move the entire demonstration, never had to bend down to pick up a single ball. It was insane!! I've never seen anything like it and I doubt I ever will again.

 

 

that's funny.. I never saw someone with a shag bag standing on the greens at any of the majors.. THAT must have been the problem...

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Here is some footage of Moe

http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do;js...omcat1?id=14256

And here is Hogan hitting balls in Mexico

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhENZhX7FZw

I cannot believe the wrist hinge on Hogan. I have never been able to get that angle while still having the club in my hands-- I physically am unable to do it.

d

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You know its funny to me.

 

I look at videos of Moe Norman swinging the club and I look at videos of Ben Hogan swinging the club and I am not sure which swing I dislike the most.

 

I know they were both very good ball strikers , but I still cringe when I hear people are using these two players as models for their swing.

 

Ken

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I'm not going to put anymore effort into this with you, if you go back and analyze your initial post in this thread it is plagued with inaccuracy and ill wording. People who have seen both of these men hit have already weighed in on this, and hogan could hit it ANY which way he wanted...Having a cupped wrist Obviously has no ill-effect towards ones ability to strike the ball. 9 majors vs 0 majors is a testament to Hogans swing...and under pressure...with less than average putting skills.

 

 

Shag who said they saw both men hit and was it in there prime. Cause most of these people including me have never seen either of them hit it period in person

 

Which makes this thread hilarious.

 

 

I saw em' both hit it......and so has fats.......and you can't probably can't get Nicklaus, Player, Burke, Crenshaw, etc. etc. etc. to agree on much of anything.....but, they all, to a man, say Mr. Hogan was by far the best they ever saw........that's good enough for me.........

 

Ken, I can certainly understand why you think the way you do and I very much respect your opinion......your more of a Nicklaus swing type and that's perfectly ok.........I think the swings of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were FAR superior as a group to the Nicklaus era.......and the kid's today, for the most part, swing the club FAR superior to the Nicklaus era, again IMOP.......it's like women, some like blondes.....some brunettes.....some red heads, etc. etc.....eye of the beholder...... :good:

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whoa!!!!!! excuse me for having a differing opinion. i just liked moe's style better. if its that important to you three, then you have some serious problems. cant a guy state a differing opinion? get a f****** life guys. ben hogan probably would make fun of you for being such worthless pisants anyway.

 

 

:good:

 

 

The reason why you were "bashed" is because you have no idea what you're talking about. You said because Hogan cupped his wrist, he couldn't play a draw, which is wrong. I don't care if you think Moe is the best ever. That's fine, he was a great ball striker. I think it is annoying to hear ignorant, arrogant people such as yourself state opinions as if they are facts, and then say things that are completely wrong. There's also no reason to swear. Calm down. Maybe you shouldn't put BS in all your posts?

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