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The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion


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1. I’ve always had a problem determining my dominant eye. When I focus on a door jamb with my finger up, I see two distinct images of my finger on either side of the door jamb, with neither image being distinct from the other. I can’t decide what eye is dominant because it depends on which image I choose to put over the door jamb. Since I can’t literally look through someone else’s eyes I can’t tell if this is normal or not LOL!

I'm exactly the same, and I believe I have no or very little eye dominance. I'm left handed, but play golf right handed, shoot a basket ball left handed, throw left, hit right, but can hit a tennis ball forehand with either hand equally well.

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Great stuff Dariusz, superb!! There's a lot more to the big rubber band than just two Xs. I like to think of the core as one big torsion bar, stretched/stressed on the backswing and released on the downswing.

 

Have you seen these?

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XDiwpfQ6OvQ

 

 

 

FC, thanks. The concept of considering the core as one torsion bar is in perfect accordance with the biokinetic theory. It is the best notion when someone needs to summarize the main body action.

 

Yep, I've seen the Hogan animation vids. Although they are not perfectly right with the original (e.g. the shoulders are not open enugh at impact in DTL and top views), they are very good as regards the mechanics of the human body. Please note that the animation contains 4 parts (not 3, as in my presentation) that is anatomically correct. What I called as the waist is presented here as adbomenal sphere that contains some very important muscles that join the torso to the pelvis. I treated this section as a thin stripe because, as I said in my initial post, I do not want to go that far to the muscle/flexor

level.

The best of the three is the FO view where one can easily see what is the essence of the main body work during the golf swing. Look especially what happens from 0:04 to 0:05 (transition) - how the distance between lead hip and the rear shoulder increases till its limits and how different and clearer is this concept in comparison to the shoulders/hips plane difference.

 

Cheers

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Dariusz,

 

So what do you think of McLean's, and I believe Kostis is dead set on this as well, but holding the shoulders/upper body back while unwinding with the lower body, increasing the "X Factor" on the downswing? In your opinion, does this warrant any attention? Recommended? Create any addtional speed? Or optimum angle of attack? Biomechanically speaking as well as technically.

 

I suppose what I am getting at is the problem I've seen some get into because of their inability to separate the shoulders and their lower body. The shoulders just move along with them much too fast, much too early, really destroying any chance of delivering the club from a solid position. Understand?

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Magnum, the main difference between me and McLean is that I am building my biokinetical theory on natural limitations, not on digits or angle numbers. There is no particular need to think about holding the shoulders or any other swing thought of this style. The optimum velocity * of the clubhead in a full swing (for a given person) is being achieved automatically. This is the beauty of simplicity of the theory.

 

* of course, arms can influence the optimum velocity by their independent motion (over a motion that is subduead to the pivot) and often increase it; that is why (maybe except Mike Dobbyn to a degree) all ReMAX LD champs are body+arms swingers; however, the idea is to build the automatic repeatable swing, not a swing that lets us hit the ball the furthest. :man_in_love:

 

First, please note that if the rear shoulder and lead hip are in most distant possible places STATICALLY at the end of the backswing there is no possibility of screwing the whole motion because there is no room left to do it. Since the transition is the most dynamic motion that the main body encounters in a golf swing (lower part goes rapidly in another direction that the upper part), from a DYNAMIC point of view the coiling even increases because human muscles and flexors always have some reserves.

Now, the optimum position at the top (that is defined by small X-Factors) requires a proper weight distribution that is another great thing when talking about introducing automatism in the whole motion. Keep the weight too much on the lead leg - you will find it hard to stop the lead hip; keep the weight too much on the rear leg - you will feel that the rear shoulder cannot find its limit. Both are wrong things.

 

The shoulders can be moving too fast or too slow in the downswing in reference to the hips since they did not find the biokinetical limit anywhere and our brain treat their movement as a DELIBERATE action of the shoulders and of the hips SEPARATELY, which won't happen when our brain can treat the motion as a whole and let it happen automatically. One needs only to understand and accept that the waist section solves this issue excellently by itself because there are no bones or joints - only the stable core (spine) and very strong muscles around it. Too many golf theories are dealing with details while our body can solve it much better by itself.

 

Just to add, the problems in separating lower part of the main body from the upper one, IMHO, are strongly linked to the fact that both small X-Factors have not seen their limits. That's why I consider McLean's X-factor theory (both hips angle level to both shoulders angle level) as not complete from the biomechanical point of view. However, the main concept of linking the "effortless" power of the swing to the ability of separation is great and true, especially in pivot-guided swings.

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Wow. Great stuff, Dariusz. That floored me.

 

So, in other words, the reason for the lack of separation is due to the lack of the stretch, the lack of tightness, the lack of turning your upper body as far as it will go while resisting with the lower body. This, from what I understand, will inevitably make it AUTOMATIC. Body does it own its own. And the separation wil be there and in the correct sequence. If that is it, then I say brilliant. So, the LIMIT must be found. Correct?

 

And from all this, and only by this, the old adage of starting the swing from the ground up which will "slot the club for you" is better explained right?

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Dariusz. So you are saying I need to drop 80lbs to get back to my svelte skirt chasing weight????????????

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Wow. Great stuff, Dariusz. That floored me.

 

So, in other words, the reason for the lack of separation is due to the lack of the stretch, the lack of tightness, the lack of turning your upper body as far as it will go while resisting with the lower body. This, from what I understand, will inevitably make it AUTOMATIC. Body does it own its own. And the separation wil be there and in the correct sequence. If that is it, then I say brilliant. So, the LIMIT must be found. Correct?

 

And from all this, and only by this, the old adage of starting the swing from the ground up which will "slot the club for you" is better explained right?

 

Yes and yes. The only two things missing for now here is a proper action of legs which is crucial as crucial the action of a human body base can be, as well as subduing the arms action to the pivot in a proper way.

And, it is a big exaggeration to say that it all is enough to make the swing be pure automatic. The theory concentrates only on removing the obstacles so that it can happen at least to a noticeable degree - which is not entirely possible when our brain can "see" certain actions of body segments separately. Moreover, I am very sure that if one can imagine an armless golfer with biokinetically great legs action, his body effort at "hitting" the ball would represent a perfect main body motion.

 

Look at this:

 

 

 

 

Dariusz. So you are saying I need to drop 80lbs to get back to my svelte skirt chasing weight????????????

 

Absolutely not :man_in_love: Even if you are another 80lbs heavier your main body has its limits in motion. Most probably the sum of your body small X-Factors will be much lower (but not in all cases, since there are some fat and very flexible persons), however, it does not jeopardize the idea of an optimal clubhead velocity JUST FOR YOUR PARTICULAR SWING MOTION. :partytime2:

 

 

Cheers

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Dariusz. Now all you do is load your torsion bar X->X->X (no screwing or other BS needed), attatch the arms to the axle, make the arms one solid unit (anchor the right elbow/left armpit "wishbone suspension" [ie Hogan's keep the elbows together/wrapped feeling]), turn left/release the torsion and transfer all that energy to the ball. Anchoring that right elbow and getting the right forearm/shaft on plane early @ a 90* to the axle is very efficient/wastes no energy. Hogan did that the best.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. I'll keep the weight on so I may hit the ball more "solidly."

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FC, when we come to The Arms section in this thread we shall be talking exactly about treating both arms as a single unit - specifically, it would treat about finding limitations in joints motion which is in a perfect accordance with what Hogan did (also in perfect accordance with what Norman did, but he found the limitation completely different way).

BTW, the concept of achieving 90* angle of the forearm (Hogan) or arm (Norman) to the spine as early as possible after transition is one of the few goldest rules of biokinetics and, as you said, it allows to save energy as well as eliminates many timing issues out of the motion. Yes, Hogan did it the best, while Norman did it the easiest way. :man_in_love:

 

 

Cheers

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FC, when we come to The Arms section in this thread we shall be talking exactly about treating both arms as a single unit - specifically, it would treat about finding limitations in joints motion which is in a perfect accordance with what Hogan did (also in perfect accordance with what Norman did, but he found the limitation completely different way).

BTW, the concept of achieving 90* angle of the forearm (Hogan) or arm (Norman) to the spine as early as possible after transition is one of the few goldest rules of biokinetics and, as you said, it allows to save energy as well as eliminates many timing issues out of the motion. Yes, Hogan did it the best, while Norman did it the easiest way. :man_in_love:

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Looking forward to the next installment. Thank you.

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4. The Legs

 

Although a few sentences have already been written about arms, describing the legs action from the biokinetical point of view appears to be more logical as a consequence of the previous chapter about the main body. It is also much simpler to do since the legs are the base of the whole human body and the only link between us and the ground.

The evolution of species proves that the gravity is not such a huge obstacle to force to engage all distal parts with an aim to keep the main body safe, stable and balanced. A pair of "well-designed" legs is enough to enable us to make a huge variety of motions. If we look what is the main difference between us and animals (except Primates) we can see that our feet can be entirely used for a contact with the ground. This fact have pros and cons - the main advantage is that we do not usually need our arms to help us to move or maintain balance, the main minus is that we are not very flexible in a 3-D movement comparing to almost all mammals.

The impact of this fact is crucial when talking about a golf swing motion where the most important goal of the legs is to maintain balance (and not e.g. to jump or change the orientation of motion fastly). Our feet are a very solid base for the rest of the body, and, what is equally important, they are very sensitive for changes in the motion. They can be like this since the anatomy of a human foot enables to react immediately to the brain's signals with a very rich variety of actions (dorsiflexion, plantarflexion, abduction, eversion, inversion, supination, pronation, etc.) because the lower joint (malleolus=ankle) let the feet move practically in all possible directions. The good thing is that there sould be no special attention paid to the ankle joint and its limitation since the gravity and necessity of maintaining balance does it for us. It is more important to look at what feet are supposed to do (or, better said, how they should be placed) and what impact it may have on segments that are located further from the ground.

The other legs joint of huge importance is the knee joint which is, BTW, the biggest joint in the human body and is homologeus to the elbow joint in the arms, however, they both are acting differently as regards planes of motion. Simplyfying the topic, the knee joint can act in two independent planes - it can flex/extend as well as rotate. What is interesting, a two-axial joint always have the primary and secondary motion, i.e. one of the motions are much frequently used from biomechanical point of view.

In case of the knee joint, flexing and extending are the motion of the primary importance - but only in one direction - knees cannot be bent backwards. That is why the ankle joint is not located in the middle of the feet.

The lateral rotation is very limited (up to 30 degrees only) - and this fact is crucial for our golf swing motion since the knee rotation happens exactly in the same horizontal plane. Another fact worth mentioning is that flexing/extending action of the knee is strictly related to the foot motion, that means it can be subdued to a proper feetwork. I want to underline the word "feetwork", not "footwork" - the greatest ballstrikers never let put the work on only one foot practically until approaching impact (well, the truth is that if the stick is long enough and the stance very wide the rear foot is too far away from the CoG at impact and it is not entirely flat on the ground at impact).

Lastly, the hip joints, that are the true links between the main body and the legs. The fact that there are two of them plays a crucial role in all CoG shifts of the human body in action, as well as determines which of the two hip joints is the protagonist. When a main body equipped with two lower distal parts is turning and wants to do it effectively, it must act as if we have only one leg. Independent two joints are the obstacle in a turning motion and a bliss for a sway. This is why the primary thought of a golf beginner is to sway with the hips in order to gain power and not to put the vast majority of the weight of dynamically turning mass on one leg. Why ? because our brains see the ball flight as a linear motion (from the point where we are to the target). When the same beginner begins to believe in gaining power from rotation of the body, he instinctivelly places the CoG on one of the hip joints. Moreover, it is much easier to understand why it should be the lead hip joint, and not the rear one - the orientation of the linear movement is just this way. Combine the linear movement concept with conviction that rotation gives the true power and the effect will be a great CoG shift in a hip area. It is that easy, IMHO, and in a perfect accordance with the optimal hip area movement described in the previous section.

 

OK, now ad rem. The golf swing motion relies generally on turning the whole body back and forth. Thus, we need to find limitations in joints to ensure automatism in the whole motion. Since we already know that the main body should encounter the sum of small X-Factors it becomes obvious that it needs a stable base. Neither feet, nor knees should enable the rear hip slide back and lose the coil.

Therefore, the most important limitation that is to be found is to make impossible for the knee and ankle joint to move separately from the rest of the upper body. Unfortunately, the dominant motion of the knee joint happens in a perpendicular plane in relation to the orientation of the golf swing motion, and nothing can be done about it. That's why there are a lot of golfers (even the greatest ones) who squat down or up in certain moments of swing. It's inevitable in such a dynamic motion. Luckily, our brains are able to control it when focusing on the primary goal which is hitting the ball and not the ground. That is why casters (early release golfers) stand up before impact and that is why great golfers squat after transition in order to maximize the optimal velocity of the clubhead. Please also note that the small feet CoG shift reflects in the knee joint movement - the more is the weight set to the heel, the more the knee extends in a rotary motion, and viceversa.

 

Nevertheless, a lot can be done in another plane, i.e. in finding the limitation of the rotation in both knee as well as in ankle joints. Proper feet stance is crucial because there is a significant amount of friction between the sole and the ground. The more the feet is directed towards the target of the motion the more limit will be found in both joints. That's why Hogan moved his heel of the rear foot back, setting it at least perpendicularily to the target line - which move is well documented in a lot of films as well as in his books. It makes finding the limits of knee and ankle rotation very easy. When there is limit, there is no room left for screwing the motion. IMHO, it's enough, and although I follow the Sevam's thread carefully as a big Hogan fan, introducing another thought as e.g. screwing the foot into the ground is not necessary since it puts the focus on timing. The rear foot is "screwing" into the ground automatically when the knee rotation finds its limits because the foot cannot turn back due to the resistance. Therefore, in my opinion, presetting the torque does its job perfectly without necessity of thinking about it. Funny thing is that the knee joint rotates only when it is bent what would suggest that one should hit balls with straight legs...but such a swing would be deprived of power, thus, it is not a subject of the studies.

The left foot, as we know from "The 5 Lessons" should be flared and this concept is also biomechanically very sound. It allows to find the limit of rotation of the lead knee even faster than the rear one. The knee that cannot rotate further bends inwards what almost automatically makes the weight shift on a lead hip joint when the linear CoG shift happens. If the lead foot is put inward, instead flared, all tension in the knee and hip is lost. Moreover, the sum of small X-factors is being achieved properly when the lead hip "stays" early in the backswing allowing the rear shoulder find its limit without making the backswing too long and loose.

Lastly, it is to be pointed out that setting the weight in various patterns influences the limits. If a swing pattern requires setting more weight on a front foot, the rear foot needs to find its limit later in the motion because of the upper body position (mainly a necessary spine angle lateral bent when swinging back); thus, in such a situation, keeping the rear foot perpendicular or even slightly turned inwards is not a great thing. The same is true when, hypothetically, one needs to keep the majority of the weight on the rear part, but, as explained earlier, should not be discussed there because of the linear orientation of the swing motion.

 

 

 

Cheers

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Great s*** D.

 

One more important aspect of the knees. The more they are flexed, the more dynamic they become....activated if you will (knock-kneed=stiff). Very important in releasing the torque.

 

Also the more they are flexed, the easier is is to use your arse to counterbalance the head (and thus get a more [vertically] centered CoG).

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Could you elaborate upon certain "swing patterns" and the necessary weight adjustments and positions of the feet individually. A few examples would be great. Thanks

 

Magnum, the general rule of thumb would be - the less CoG shift is necessary during transition (i.e. when the weight of the body is being preset on the lead leg, thus, close to the lead hip joint that is the real axis of body rotation in the downswing), the less the right foot should be set inwardwise, i.e. the more flared out it should be. Compare e.g. Hogan and Snead (both greatest rotary style golfers) - while Hogan took his spine and head back during downswing, Snead rather kept it more centered (that required straightening of the rear leg more). When the rear leg straightens the limitation of rotation of the knee shrinks - in case of a totally straight knee there is no possibility of making any independent rotation in the joint.

Keeping the rear foot perpendicular in this scenario (or slightly turned inwards) would limit the backswing too much and the coiling would be too weak. I believe that is why e.g. S&T instructors are proponents of both feet flared out. One more remark - IMHO, it is more dificult to find and feel the limit in the rear foot joint with a flared left foot even if the knee straightens considerably; that is why I regard the S&T style as not so perfect in the sense of trying to gain automatism as Hogan's or Moe Norman's pattern.

Lastly, when talking about patterns that are based more on a linear weight shift (hips sliding more than turning), attempts in finding limitations in knee joints are practically useless; in such a pattern I would think rather of finding the limitation in the hip joint which would be extremely difficult a task due to the movability area of a hip joint. That is why, I think, all greatest ballstrikers based their motions on a rotary principles.

 

 

One more important aspect of the knees. The more they are flexed, the more dynamic they become....activated if you will (knock-kneed=stiff). Very important in releasing the torque.

Also the more they are flexed, the easier is is to use your arse to counterbalance the head (and thus get a more [vertically] centered CoG).

 

Yep, thanks FC, for this complementary important info to the thread. It is 100% correct what you have said. These are other reasons why the hypothetically "perfect" scenario of playing golf with straight legs when talking about knee joints is completely out of question.

 

Cheers

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No thank you Dariusz. Your mentioning the knees gave me a brainfart last night.....20+ years ago in my first golf life one of my address "moves" was to actually squat down, stick the arse out and get into the athletic stance just before I put the club behind the ball. That's been missing since I started back up again (two wives, three kids and a couple mistresses in between) :) Tightened up my swing quite a bit today doing just that.

 

Looking forward to the arms. Frank

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  • 2 weeks later...

5. The Arms

 

This is the most complicated area of the golf swing to describe and to find automatism from biokinetical point of view. There are, at least, four main reasons that are responsible for this:

- humans are equipped with two arms that are "programmed" to act independently while their task is to act freely in the space;

- arms are equipped with a lot of muscles and several joints (especially wrist and fingers ones) that enable them to move almost in all possible directions and execute a huge variety of tasks;

- the only one link between the arm and the main body is the shoulder joint; moreover, both shoulder joints are distant from each other a significant way;

- elbow joints are built the way that makes it impossible to tie the forearms to each other during an action.

 

First, I want to stress that I have concluded that there is no real possibility (and, what is very important, there is no real need, in fact) to find limitations of the fingers, hands and the wrists that could be useful for our purposes. The only one very important role of the fingers and the hands is to hold the club the proper way and the rest is pure physics. It is time now to present the concept of nunchakoo and the role of angular momentum conservation rule (please bare with me, since I am not a physician and want to present it in a most friendly way).

Imagine that your forearm is one stick of a nunchakoo, while the club WITH HANDS ON IT is the second one. The wrists play the role of a chain linking both sticks. Now, according to the physical rule of angular momentum conservation, during a rotational movement of the main body, the momentum is constant in a closed system. Shortly, it means that if the velocity of the rotation is constant nothing changes in a perfect model. In the golf swing, after transition, the rotational velocity initially increases, then decreases before impact letting the club catch the hands, because the main goal is not to maintain the delay (lag) but to hit the ball. The whole trick is to find the proper moment of levelling the clubhead with the grip, or, other words, to find a proper moment for a bottom of the arc to happen. It is not the role of the wrists or hands to find it (although e.g. TGM school insist on "educating hands concept") because the timing would be a protagonist here. This is the role of the proper work of the legs, main body rotation and upper arms to prepare the position that would automatically find the correct moment in a due time without even thinking about it.

Please, understand correctly what I try to say. I am not trying to say that the concept of training wrists/hands is wrong - au contre, it is a great concept how to hit the ball properly. The human brain sees the action of ballstriking the way that we need to bring the ball airborne - this is a real katharsis for all flippers and bad shots. And it is not easy to fight any subconscious rules, but not that difficult. When one of my friends, an avid physician, explained me the momentum conservation rule, I have started to hit shots with very deep divots well after the ball so my clubhead even stopped in the ground for a milisecond. Thus, one either have to convince their brains to trust in the loft of the clubhead or to educate their hands. The only one minus is that wrists and hands cannot be trained enough well - and this is true, unfortunately, because we are not robots. It is much easier to leave it to the physics of our 3-D reality.

But, back to the merits - the angular momentum conservation rule is responsible for creating and maintaining lag when only one of our arms parts can play the role of the nunchakoo chain. The wrists are biomechanically born for this goal. CoG shift that enables to turn on the lead leg (i.e. CoG shift forward) makes the arms be in a correct position at impact - in front of the ball, if needed - if only the arms are subdued to the body turn. The upper stick of the nunchakoo (i.e. the forearms) follows the body turn and CoG shift letting the lower stick to catch it late enough.

 

The biggest problem is that we have two forearms that cannot be tied to each other, yet it would be the best if both arms worked as an unit. Unfortunately, it is not possible because of the distance between shoulders joints and the elbow joints build. The latter consist of three independent joints closed in one big joint - they are responsible for all the motions the elbow joint is able to make. For the simplicity, we concentrate on two planes of the elbow joints motion - bending/unbending and rotation.

 

In The Legs chapter i have said that the elbow joint is homologeous to the knee joint, yet there are some crucial differences between them. The first one is that the elbow joint (opposite to the knee joint) can rotate only when the arm is straight . The second one is that the elbow joints (also opposite to the knee joints) may and usually do work in different planes.

 

Let's deal first with the rotational aspect - a bent arm in elbow can rotate roughly 180 degrees with a fixed point of the elbow due to the forearm rotation; a straight arm in elbow can rotate almost 300 degrees (thus, the elbow joint can add more than 90 degrees), which is a huge difference, especially, when we think that the clubhead can be rotated the same huge amount. It says us that there is practically no possibility of find a biokinetical limitation that would make the arm movement automatic. But there is a chance - we have two arms and two elbow joints that work in different planes. It's a bliss, since one of them can limit the other one relatively easily. The right arm is bent in elbow at impact, therefore, it cannot rotate as much (or better said, it finds its limits in the motion earlier) as the straight left arm at impact. Moreover, there is a limit of the forearm turn in relation to the elbow joint depending on the grip - look at post-secret Hogan's setup position - his inside part of the right elbow is very well visible from the FO, while his right hand is on top of the grip in weak position. IMHO, he found the rotational limit of the forearm-elbow system just at setup and maintained it until the very impact. It would excellently explain how his right elbow drops down at transition - because it cannot do anything else if the main goal of the downswing is to keep the elbow-forearm system position fixed - at impact his elbow inside part is visible. Moreover, Hogan had both arms slightly bent at address what seemed to help him not to start the backswing with an overrotation of the elbow-forearm system in both arms.

 

The bending aspect is more tricky. It is much easier to obey the rule of keeping the distal parts perpendicular to the spine when both arms are straight. It also gives a much better feeling of both arms working in unisono. Lastly, although straight arms in elbows enable bigger rotation, sort of "blocking" both elbow joints takes them practically out of play - like a human was equipped with arms without elbow joints. This is what can be observed in Moe Norman's action to a degree - arms perpendicular to the spine "urging" to be straight as soon as possible at the downswing.

IMO, the weak point of this scenario is that the only one link of both distal parts to the main body are the shoulders joints that are too weak taking into account the length and the weight of the arms (+ the club). This may be the most evident proof why Norman was not a long hitter, although his brain made his pivot and arms work great together in synch. Lastly, it is worth stressing that Moe had a very strong grip of the right hand and not so strong of the left one (opposite to Hogan) that promotes having both inside elbow parts to work more parallelly to each other.

 

So, now we come to the second golden rule of biokinetics (first was treating about perpendicularity of the arms to the spine during the rotational motion), i.e. to link the upper part of the arms to the main body during the motion. It's dynamically possible only when the main body is in a open position at impact - since this is the only one position that can ensure the left upper part be pinned to the open chest while the right upper arm is, say, at the shirt seam. A square or a closer main body at impact would inevitably lead to the necessity of having both upper part of arms in the front of the body, which is equal to increased possibility of timing issues to happen - arms less subdued to the pivot.

It can be done both ways - to want to subdue the left arm first or the right one first, or both. It is much easier to let the lead arm be pinned to the chest via the turning main body (this is what the majority of rotary swingers do, me included until now); however, it would leave the right hand in a very weak position with the inside part of the elbow more facing the target (especially with the strong right hand grip). The right arm action solo brings a danger of thrusting both elbow joints (and, consequently, both arms) in the front of the body which is bad thing from a biokinetical point of view.

The golden means is to try to subdue both arms simultaneously - right elbow must go down and close to the hip (which is easy thing to do taking into acount the CoG shift onto the lead leg during transition) while letting the lead upper arm be pinned to the chest at impact. Hogan's right arm action (I call it the right elbow is searching the left one in order to be as close as possible to it) makes his left upper arm be away from the body at first but before impact it is already pinned to his turning and opening to the target chest. It appears to be easy while maintaining the afore-mentioned limit between forearm and elbow rotation - even me, with my body flaws, can do it now decenty to a degree.

Lastly, when Hogan described the famous concept of tieing both arms with having both elbows close to each other during the motion, he forgot to uncover the elbow joints on the picture. It is obvious that both elbows cannot be turned to each other with their inside parts but rather be perpendicular to each other.

 

Well, it's 3 a.m. now :rolleyes: I better stop writing the post (although I have surely omitted something), but I do hope the discussion will help to tun the thread on...

 

Cheers

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Dariuz, the whole topic of eye dominance really has me thinking.......I am def. right eye dominate and have problems with flipping/standing up through the shot raising my head etc. I also wear glasses.

1. is this the reason Duval and Sorenstam rotate thier head toward the target on the downswing?

2. Will getting the dominate eye focused on the ball during the downswing help me stop casting and rotate left more naturally?

3. Should I work on the Duval/Sorenstam move to help with this problem?

4. Should I focus on the ball with my right eye throughout the backswing?

5. Any other advice would be appriciated

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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Dariuz, the whole topic of eye dominance really has me thinking.......I am def. right eye dominate and have problems with flipping/standing up through the shot raising my head etc. I also wear glasses.

1. is this the reason Duval and Sorenstam rotate thier head toward the target on the downswing?

2. Will getting the dominate eye focused on the ball during the downswing help me stop casting and rotate left more naturally?

3. Should I work on the Duval/Sorenstam move to help with this problem?

4. Should I focus on the ball with my right eye throughout the backswing?

5. Any other advice would be appriciated

 

DL,

 

1. I believe yes, they both learned that the idea of keeping the whole head behind the ball at impact is a myth and found that they can play better golf when they let their heads move according to their natural limitations.

 

2. Well, your question brings another one - does that mean that you are not keeping your dominant eye sight on the ball during the whole motion ?

 

3. Yes, you should try it; however, I would not call it "work on" deliberately, since it would create a new timing problem and a new not necessary swing thought. I'd recommend you just to try to forget about the imperative of keeping the whole head behind the ball at impact and just let it turn freely. I can assure you that your rear dominant eye will not pass the ball, since it would be against your subconsciousness (that wants to make you hit the ball UP not thrash it into the ground).

 

4. Well, this is a great question. I'd risk to say, yes, it's better even to limit your backswing because of keeping the ball in the sight of the rear dominant eye, than to lose the ball from the sight of it. The left eye dominant RH golfers are in better situation than you or me since they can make the backswing as full as they want without a danger of out-of-sych head movement. If I am to answer this dilemma, though - I'll repeat - I'd prefer to limit my backswing than to cast during the downswing, provided my theory is correct in this point.

 

Cheers

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Dariuz, the whole topic of eye dominance really has me thinking.......I am def. right eye dominate and have problems with flipping/standing up through the shot raising my head etc. I also wear glasses.

1. is this the reason Duval and Sorenstam rotate thier head toward the target on the downswing?

2. Will getting the dominate eye focused on the ball during the downswing help me stop casting and rotate left more naturally?

3. Should I work on the Duval/Sorenstam move to help with this problem?

4. Should I focus on the ball with my right eye throughout the backswing?

5. Any other advice would be appriciated

 

DL,

 

1. I believe yes, they both learned that the idea of keeping the whole head behind the ball at impact is a myth and found that they can play better golf when they let their heads move according to their natural limitations.

 

2. Well, your question brings another one - does that mean that you are not keeping your dominant eye sight on the ball during the whole motion ?

 

3. Yes, you should try it; however, I would not call it "work on" deliberately, since it would create a new timing problem and a new not necessary swing thought. I'd recommend you just to try to forget about the imperative of keeping the whole head behind the ball at impact and just let it turn freely. I can assure you that your rear dominant eye will not pass the ball, since it would be against your subconsciousness (that wants to make you hit the ball UP not thrash it into the ground).

 

4. Well, this is a great question. I'd risk to say, yes, it's better even to limit your backswing because of keeping the ball in the sight of the rear dominant eye, than to lose the ball from the sight of it. The left eye dominant RH golfers are in better situation than you or me since they can make the backswing as full as they want without a danger of out-of-sych head movement. If I am to answer this dilemma, though - I'll repeat - I'd prefer to limit my backswing than to cast during the downswing, provided my theory is correct in this point.

 

Cheers

Dariuz, thanks for your response, very interesting thread

1. That is what I suspected, any other pros that are good examples of this?

2. I am not sure, never really thought about it before, but it seemed to be an aha moment for me over coffee this morning, will see maybe later tonight if I can make it to the range without making the wife mad.

3. I have always been told to keep the head still (Nicklaus, Bobby Jones Snead etc. but they all looked at it with the left eye) I will experiment.

4. It seems to me that if this increased lag then it should either not cost too much distance or increase it even though the shoulder turn may be limited.

 

My suspician is that this may be the reason the game seems easier for some than others, most of the all time greats I am guessing were left eye dominate, Hogan, Snead, Jack, Jones, I am pretty sure Tiger is............I would bet that Watson was but I don't know. I wonder if Byron Nelson was right eyed, he seemed to have a restricted shoulder turn...Hmmmmmm

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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Well, if you step back e.g. to Mike PolePosition's posts with attached photos you will find another three great examples, especially Jim Furyk, a very good and accurate ballstriker.

 

All those greats you have mentioned were or were supposed to be RH golfers with left eye dominance. Who knows, maybe this is why they were so great, not only because they were very gifted. I fully agree to your suspicions. Then, the instructors wanted people to copy Jones's, Nicklaus's, Hogan's or Snead's head position at impact (because they were the best golfers) not being aware that it may bring more harm than good to an average golfer who is rear eye dominant person.

Byron Nelson seemed to be a right eye dominant person who also understood the same thing Annika and Duval did many years after him. Look at this sequence and pay special attention to his head movement in both backswing and downswing:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf1OLhVxFQQ

 

Cheers

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Hit some balls last night working on keeping my right eye focused on the ball, yes my swing seem a little shorter in terms of shoulder turn but I really seemed to hit it solid. Too early to tell if this is a long term part of my swing pattern but I like what I see, no pun intended, so far. Will be playing in the morning will see how it works then.

 

BTW this is a great thread, can't beleive it isn't getting more views and responses.

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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The golden means is to try to subdue both arms simultaneously - right elbow must go down and close to the hip (which is easy thing to do taking into acount the CoG shift onto the lead leg during transition) while letting the lead upper arm be pinned to the chest at impact. Hogan's right arm action (I call it the right elbow is searching the left one in order to be as close as possible to it) makes his left upper arm be away from the body at first but before impact it is already pinned to his turning and opening to the target chest. It appears to be easy while maintaining the afore-mentioned limit between forearm and elbow rotation - even me, with my body flaws, can do it now decenty to a degree.

Lastly, when Hogan described the famous concept of tieing both arms with having both elbows close to each other during the motion, he forgot to uncover the elbow joints on the picture. It is obvious that both elbows cannot be turned to each other with their inside parts but rather be perpendicular to each other.

 

Very important in Hogan's swing. Hogan's leg action was simply to do one thing: get on his left pivot point as soon as possible. Then all he had to do was rotate. Although at address his arms were far apart, relaxed if you will, his first move back started to get the arms working together. Then it is at transition where he glues them together as one unit. As the right arm/lever lowers to hip level the left then arm attatches to the chest: major leverage-power (all the big muscles of the body transfer their energy through the arms). Then with his left arm glued to his chest, his right arm at his hip, just like a wishbone suspension as his core rotates left, the ball gets in the way. His arms just went along for the ride---> left.

 

Two years ago my local pro once gave me a tip: hit the ball with your chest, not your arms. Didn't get it then as I was a staller/slinger. Look at Hogan's swing as he goes through impact and releases left. His left arm is up against his chest and it looks as if he hits the ball with his chest (core actually).

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I am glad you like the thread, DL, moreover, that the biokinetical theory concepts may serve to turn your swing for a better and easier one. :russian_roulette:

 

 

 

Frank, great post. Wishbone suspension is a great description of what Hogan did in his swing. He just understood that in order to let his arms work as a unit, each of both elbow joints must work differently and be properly set at address. Add a proper grip to it (that corresponds to elbow joints positions) and you have a very sound fundamental for subduing both distal parts action to the pivot.

BTW, if a human chest is built more like birds it would be much easier to make both arms work as a unit with both elbows much closer to each other. Unfortunately, we are not birds and it is not possible to avoid the separation between elbow joints. But there are very sound biomechanical methods to allow for ths, as we can see on Hogan's example.

 

 

Cheers

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Dariusz.

 

Hogan once said "You can't stand too close to the ball." Of course that only applies to a rotary swing as in a DTL release you need room to throw the hands DTL.

 

I do think one of the reasons Hogan hovered his clubhead over the ball as he waggled and had his elbows bent outwards at address was due to the fact that he did stand so close. If he ground his club it would feel awkward.

 

When he swung, the proximity to the ball was not an issue as the hands had already passed the ball on their journey left and the clubhead lagged behind.

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makes his left upper arm be away from the body at first but before impact it is already pinned to his turning and opening to the target chest.

 

Then it is at transition where he glues them together as one unit. As the right arm/lever lowers to hip level the left then arm attatches to the chest: major leverage-power (all the big muscles of the body transfer their energy through the arms). Then with his left arm glued to his chest, his right arm at his hip, just like a wishbone suspension as his core rotates left, the ball gets in the way

 

Look at Hogan's swing as he goes through impact and releases left. His left arm is up against his chest and it looks as if he hits the ball with his chest (core actually).

 

Hogan unglued??????? dts

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makes his left upper arm be away from the body at first but before impact it is already pinned to his turning and opening to the target chest.

 

Then it is at transition where he glues them together as one unit. As the right arm/lever lowers to hip level the left then arm attatches to the chest: major leverage-power (all the big muscles of the body transfer their energy through the arms). Then with his left arm glued to his chest, his right arm at his hip, just like a wishbone suspension as his core rotates left, the ball gets in the way

 

Look at Hogan's swing as he goes through impact and releases left. His left arm is up against his chest and it looks as if he hits the ball with his chest (core actually).

 

Hogan unglued??????? dts

 

 

no glue there

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