The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion

[Falang_Golfer]

Dariusz,

 

Sorry if this is maybe obvious but what do you recommend as far as elbows at address? You seem to say they should be perpendicular which to me would imply one pointing at your hip and the other at the target (or behind you I guess for right arm). Can you describe the elbows at address from looking down point of view? I've played around with this for a while and nothing seems to be right, or really that bad, but I would like to get something consistent, or find a "limit" as you say.

[eightiron]

Dunno. Earlier swing?

mexico 1956

Here's some glue:

 

 

 

mid downswing there is no glue

coming into impact the left arm slows and reattaches with the upper body rotation while the right side delivers the blow

[Dariusz J.]

FG, I think it is useless to analyze the optimal elbows position at setup without referring it to the wrists positions. In order to find a limit at the end of the backswing one of the crucial thing from biokinetical point of view is the amount of forearm rotation available, if I may say this way.

If you e.g. combine a weak LH grip with elbow pointing out you will find it may lead easily to overrotation (moreover, can lead also to a too inside takeaway); if you combine it with elbow pointing back (to the pocket), your left forearm has already established a certain amount of preset rotation. The same rule applies to a strong LH grip - one should not combine this kind of grip with elbow pointing back since it may appear that the rotation will end too soon before backswing is completed.

Therefore, the whole trick is to find an optimal combination of the whole elbow-wrist system at setup.

 

RH elbow joint should always point back since the rear arm job is mainly to fold and not to rotate. This fact creates a double security limitation. Moreover, IMHO, the best scenario is if the RH grip is weak (as in case of Hogan) while having elbow pointing in (already presetted a clockwise forearm rotation) since it also prevents from a too inside takeaway via the right wrist hinge, as well as it eliminates the possibility of overrotation of the right forearm during the downswing.

Having analyzed a lot of post-secret Hogan's footages I noticed that his right hand grip was always in a weak position, while his LH grip was "moving" between weak and neutral ones. Together with this slight grip changes his left elbow position at setup also varied - from pointing back (especially with short clubs) to pointing more out (especially with a driver). I am sure he found a method of establishing an optimal amount of his left forearm preset rotation that enabled him to finish his backswing in a due time without even thinking about it.

Since we all are different individuals, I think it is the best to experiment with various combinations of elbow-wrist system positions at setup, especially as regards the lead arm. The right arm's role is not to disturb at the backswing and deliver a pivot guided power at the downswing.

 

 

Cheers

[Swoosh-Thud]

mid downswing there is no glue

coming into impact the left arm slows and reattaches with the upper body rotation while the right side delivers the blow

 

I agree. I think it's been discussed that the left arm to the chest occurs at nut cuttin time (b/w the hips). No disagreement about early downswing at all. Prolly b/c RT forearm keeps LT arm away from chest until the hands drop down, LT arm connects. And yes the right side then delivers the blow......or is used to deliver the blow.

 

What's that little toy, usually a clown, a small rod with "arms" made of string that go out from it, the one you twist/rotate in your fingers and the arms fly outward (and upward)? If you make those arms rigid and the joints "loose/sloppy" you get the same effect of the left arm loose during the downswing, slack is taken up & it connects (purely an analogy).

 

I love that Mexico footage, haven't looked at it in a while.

[TEConnor]

FG, I think it is useless to analyze the optimal elbows position at setup without referring it to the wrists positions. In order to find a limit at the end of the backswing one of the crucial thing from biokinetical point of view is the amount of forearm rotation available, if I may say this way.

If you e.g. combine a weak LH grip with elbow pointing out you will find it may lead easily to overrotation (moreover, can lead also to a too inside takeaway); if you combine it with elbow pointing back (to the pocket), your left forearm has already established a certain amount of preset rotation. The same rule applies to a strong LH grip - one should not combine this kind of grip with elbow pointing back since it may appear that the rotation will end too soon before backswing is completed.

Therefore, the whole trick is to find an optimal combination of the whole elbow-wrist system at setup.

 

RH elbow joint should always point back since the rear arm job is mainly to fold and not to rotate. This fact creates a double security limitation. Moreover, IMHO, the best scenario is if the RH grip is weak (as in case of Hogan) while having elbow pointing in (already presetted a counterclockwise forearm rotation) since it also prevents from a too inside takeaway via the right wrist hinge, as well as it eliminates the possibility of overrotation of the right forearm during the downswing.

Having analyzed a lot of post-secret Hogan's footages I noticed that his right hand grip was always in a weak position, while his LH grip was "moving" between weak and neutral ones. Together with this slight grip changes his left elbow position at setup also varied - from pointing back (especially with short clubs) to pointing more out (especially with a driver). I am sure he found a method of establishing an optimal amount of his left forearm preset rotation that enabled him to finish his backswing in a due time without even thinking about it.

Since we all are different individuals, I think it is the best to experiment with various combinations of elbow-wrist system positions at setup, especially as regards the lead arm. The right arm's role is not to disturb at the backswing and deliver a pivot guided power at the downswing.

 

 

Cheers

 

The second bolded statement is clever. Is that your own insight Dariusz? I've been feeling and seeing that right-hand/elbow/wrist position in action for sometime and your point about it restricting a "too inside takeaway" is exactly correct.

 

Tim

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='TEConnor' date='Aug 4 2008, 08:07 AM' post=The second bolded statement is clever. Is that your own insight Dariusz? I've been feeling and seeing that right-hand/elbow/wrist position in action for sometime and your point about it restricting a "too inside takeaway" is exactly correct.

 

Tim

 

Tim, all what I wrote in this thread is mine insight based on info I could gather from doctors and physicians and I am the only person responsible for those words.

I did not want to concentrate on wrist motion at all in this thread since it is not possible, IMHO, to control those joints totally successfully; that is why I created the concept of nunchakoo sticks and wrists as a chain. If you look from this perspective, a strong RH grip will force to a too-inside takeaway because the right wrist will hinge more to the inside due to the momentum (because the primary importance motion of the wrist is hinging/unhinging); with a weak RH grip it will hinge as well but not entirely to the inside but more up enabling the club to be automatically on plane.

The best part, however, is what happens in the downswing in such a scenario, where is really dificult to overrotate the right forearm back. :russian_roulette:

 

Cheers

[TEConnor]

Tim, all what I wrote in this thread is mine insight based on info I could gather from doctors and physicians and I am the only person responsible for those words.

I did not want to concentrate on wrist motion at all in this thread since it is not possible, IMHO, to control those joints totally successfully; that is why I created the concept of nunchakoo sticks and wrists as a chain. If you look from this perspective, a strong RH grip will force to a too-inside takeaway because the right wrist will hinge more to the inside due to the momentum (because the primary importance motion of the wrist is hinging/unhinging); with a weak LH grip it will hinge as well but not entirely to the inside but more up enabling the club to be automatically on plane.

The best part, however, is what happens in the downswing in such a scenario, where is really dificult to overrotate the right forearm back. :russian_roulette:

 

Cheers

 

Dariusz,

 

Did you mean to write, "with a weak RH grip it will hinge..." ?

 

Tim

[Dariusz J.]

Already corrected my mistake...thanks for pointing it out, Tim. Of course, I meant RH :russian_roulette:

 

Cheers

[TEConnor]

Already corrected my mistake...thanks for pointing it out, Tim. Of course, I meant RH :russian_roulette:

 

Cheers

 

You're Welcome! :) What else is the interweb for besides finding picayune faults in otherwise insightful and helpful posts?

 

Tim

[Falang_Golfer]

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting. I just tried the strong and weak right grip. Never thought it affected your takeaway but now I see what you mean about the wrists hinging.

[Swoosh-Thud]

RH elbow joint should always point back since the rear arm job is mainly to fold and not to rotate. This fact creates a double security limitation. Moreover, IMHO, the best scenario is if the RH grip is weak (as in case of Hogan) while having elbow pointing in (already presetted a counterclockwise forearm rotation) since it also prevents from a too inside takeaway via the right wrist hinge, as well as it eliminates the possibility of overrotation of the right forearm during the downswing.

 

Sic.

"Rule #3. The right arm starts to fold with the arms set inward, creating the giant lever of your swing....."

 

"Setting the arms inward and maintaining them there through the swing with the elbows pointed to their respective hips allows for maximum on-plane extension and maximum loading up. You should feel as if you were holding a balloon full of air between the elbows;

 

Let your right arm fold, as if you were carrying a waiter's tray.

 

Setting the arms inward maintains your natural plane. On the back turn, this plane is slightly above 90-degrees to the backbone.

 

One day I asked Hogan, "Tell me about pronation and supination." He looked at me and said bluntly "Forget about that. When you set your arms inward and let your shoulder move them, everything else is pure reaction. On the back turn, the right palm points at the sky and the left palm points to the ground. Keeping those arms inward on the target turn causes the hands and wrists to react and square the clubface as the left elbow folds and the right arm is extended. Through the hitting area, the right palm works down at the ground." (Maximum Golf p. 65)

 

You are dead on my friend. Good deductions.

[magnum184]

RH elbow joint should always point back since the rear arm job is mainly to fold and not to rotate. This fact creates a double security limitation. Moreover, IMHO, the best scenario is if the RH grip is weak (as in case of Hogan) while having elbow pointing in (already presetted a counterclockwise forearm rotation) since it also prevents from a too inside takeaway via the right wrist hinge, as well as it eliminates the possibility of overrotation of the right forearm during the downswing.

 

Sic.

"Rule #3. The right arm starts to fold with the arms set inward, creating the giant lever of your swing....."

 

"Setting the arms inward and maintaining them there through the swing with the elbows pointed to their respective hips allows for maximum on-plane extension and maximum loading up. You should feel as if you were holding a balloon full of air between the elbows;

 

Let your right arm fold, as if you were carrying a waiter's tray.

 

Setting the arms inward maintains your natural plane. On the back turn, this plane is slightly above 90-degrees to the backbone.

 

One day I asked Hogan, "Tell me about pronation and supination." He looked at me and said bluntly "Forget about that. When you set your arms inward and let your shoulder move them, everything else is pure reaction. On the back turn, the right palm points at the sky and the left palm points to the ground. Keeping those arms inward on the target turn causes the hands and wrists to react and square the clubface as the left elbow folds and the right arm is extended. Through the hitting area, the right palm works down at the ground." (Maximum Golf p. 65)

 

You are dead on my friend. Good deductions.

 

But in order for that to work, a FULL and MAXIMUM wrist set must accompany it, right? The short arm swing/full wrist set of Hogan. Otherwise, the clubhead is out of position. Anything to that, in your opinion?

[Swoosh-Thud]

But in order for that to work, a FULL and MAXIMUM wrist set must accompany it, right? The short arm swing/full wrist set of Hogan. Otherwise, the clubhead is out of position. Anything to that, in your opinion?

 

 

Absolutely. Hogan didn't have to worry about that, he had lag to spare. Slice puts quite a bit of emphasis on the wrist wrist set in the 9-3 drill.

 

And:

 

Sic. "The cup in the back of the right wrist is the leverage point of your completed grip...............The cup in the back of the right wrist allows your hands and arms to pull a trailing club head through impact with the right palm working at the ground.......... (p. 36)

 

Don't forget he didn't need a long swing, the arms did not supply any power to his swing, they were just levers that transferred the power of the larger (core) muscles. The more lag you have, the more the right wrist remains cupped, or should I say the more the right wrist remains cupped, the more lag you can maintain, the more left you can go...........

 

But you are absolutely DEAD ON Magnum!! Schlee talks quite a bit about presetting the wrists and:

 

Sic "Johnny Miller finds a wrist ****.....At the US Open in Medinah, Johnny Miller asked me, "What was Ben's secret?" "I showed him the wrinkles (talking about the skin on the back of the wrists) and the cup. He stared at my hands and said 'That's one heck of a wrist ****.'..................."Hogan told me to **** my wrists as soon as possible. This places the club on plane sooner than a one piece takeaway." (p. 64)

 

Somewhere/how I lost my wrist set. When I swing now I can feel when my right palm leads my right index finger into the ball (read butt of the club) and I can feel the heel leading the toe through the ball, great f****** feeling. And when I get handsy (I feel the clubhead not the butt)....clunk. Still hit it 90%, but it ain't pure.

[Dariusz J.]

One day I asked Hogan, "Tell me about pronation and supination." He looked at me and said bluntly "Forget about that. When you set your arms inward and let your shoulder move them, everything else is pure reaction. On the back turn, the right palm points at the sky and the left palm points to the ground. Keeping those arms inward on the target turn causes the hands and wrists to react and square the clubface as the left elbow folds and the right arm is extended. Through the hitting area, the right palm works down at the ground." (Maximum Golf p. 65)

 

Frank, it only shows that Hogan's knowledge of biokinetics was huge, even if it was a result of a pure luck in his researches. If one starts to think about such things as pronation, supination, wrists motion, knee motion, etc. he unwillingly but efficiently subdues his swing to timing issues. That is why I think the concept of finding limitations of various sections of our bodies is golden because it frees your mind excellently. Now I know why I always did not like the "twist & throw" part in a OP downswing and why I always struggled with takeaway and backswing.

 

Being somehow deep in the biokinetics now I cannot believe how many swing theories are made without a solid basic knowledge of it. No wonder that so many golfers struggle to find their way to perform a repeatable motion and jump from one theory to another.

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

But in order for that to work, a FULL and MAXIMUM wrist set must accompany it, right? The short arm swing/full wrist set of Hogan. Otherwise, the clubhead is out of position. Anything to that, in your opinion?

 

 

Absolutely. Hogan didn't have to worry about that, he had lag to spare. Slice puts quite a bit of emphasis on the wrist wrist set in the 9-3 drill.

 

And:

 

Sic. "The cup in the back of the right wrist is the leverage point of your completed grip...............The cup in the back of the right wrist allows your hands and arms to pull a trailing club head through impact with the right palm working at the ground.......... (p. 36)

 

Don't forget he didn't need a long swing, the arms did not supply any power to his swing, they were just levers that transferred the power of the larger (core) muscles. The more lag you have, the more the right wrist remains cupped, or should I say the more the right wrist remains cupped, the more lag you can maintain, the more left you can go...........

 

But you are absolutely DEAD ON Magnum!! Schlee talks quite a bit about presetting the wrists and:

 

Sic "Johnny Miller finds a wrist ****.....At the US Open in Medinah, Johnny Miller asked me, "What was Ben's secret?" "I showed him the wrinkles (talking about the skin on the back of the wrists) and the cup. He stared at my hands and said 'That's one heck of a wrist ****.'..................."Hogan told me to **** my wrists as soon as possible. This places the club on plane sooner than a one piece takeaway." (p. 64)

 

Somewhere/how I lost my wrist set. When I swing now I can feel when my right palm leads my right index finger into the ball (read butt of the club) and I can feel the heel leading the toe through the ball, great f****** feeling. And when I get handsy (I feel the clubhead not the butt)....clunk. Still hit it 90%, but it ain't pure.

 

FC or Dariusz,

 

Tell me more about the FULL wrist set, acute angle between shaft and arm, with the short arm swing.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Magnum. I'm klnow you know the classic Hogan weak grip. Schlee emphasizes (as does Bertrand) the importance of the weak hands: as you can imagine with the hands leading the club face going left, a strong grip will result in a club face pointing left.

 

Regardless, Schlee emphasizes the wrinkles on the skin: Sic

"Those wrists were cocked by: (1) Extending the little finger of the left hand down, and, (2) Pulling up with the two middle fingers of the right hand."

 

"Notice the wrinkles on the thumb side of the cocked left wrist. Please note, too, there is only the very slightest cup in the back of the left wrist. At the top of the back turn, the left thumb is between the shaft of your club and your back bone. This assists you in getting on plane." (Maximum Golf p.61-62)

 

With respect to the right wrist, he just shows the right wrist with a weak hand, cupped wrist and wrinkles uniformly accross the back of the wrist.

 

My old computer went teets up and I haven't quite figured out Vista and migrated programs. If I can figure it out I may try to scan in the pics.

 

FWIW when I was up in Texarkana. I remember taking a backswing and held it, Geoff then really pulled the shaft back to set my wrists. I think my problem is the overuse of my pincers (index fingers). MY GD uncooperative body doesn't want to do it with a club outside, but if I swing a heavy club in front of a mirror everything looks great................

[Dariusz J.]

FC or Dariusz,

 

Tell me more about the FULL wrist set, acute angle between shaft and arm, with the short arm swing.

 

 

Magnum, in order to answer this question for you we need to go to a smaller picture, to which I did not want to go as I explained before, i.e. to the level of wrist biomechanics. Nevertheless, maybe it was my mistake just for this reason you have just touched.

The primary importance motion of a wrist is hinging-unhinging (dorsi and palmar flexions), while cocking-uncocking (ulnar and radial deviations) is, say, of secondary importance. You can easily see how much easier is to hinge than to **** the wrist as well as how much far away you can hinge (up to ca. 90*) than to **** (up to ca. 45*). This fact determines that if both hands are tied in a golf grip, and the directions of the motions of both wrists are just close to each other (left wrist cocks while right one hinges; although usually there is no straight 90* relation between them, it is close to it in a proper grip), the direction of the total movement will be rather determined by hinging, not by cocking.

A strong RH grip will cause the right wrist to hinge too much to the inside during takeaway and backswing then. A weak RH grip will cause the wrist to hinge more up on the correct backswing plane automatically, leading the direction of the LH wrist cocking also on the correct plane without the necessity of toying with forearm rotation.

Too bad I did not know it before - I would spare a lot of hours in search of an optimal takeaway and backswing.

 

Now, if the plane is correct, nothing prevents both wrist from finding their anatomical limitation at the top and achieving a great angle between forearm and shaft. Just as Frank said in his post before - "a hell of a wrist ****". Please also note that in such a situation, the club reaches the straight angle towards the forearm rather soon - that's why Hogan's shaft was perpendicular to the ground just when his forearms were parallel to the ground. Thus, he might easily shorten his backswing because it feels like you are already set much before the time when the shaft is parallel at the top. Moreover, post-secret Hogan could swing the club with a short LH thumb, what emphasizes it even more (it's anatomically easier to achieve a big wrist **** with a long thumb). He had much better control and he did not lose anything from his lag. Simple, huh ? :rolleyes:

 

Lastly, in a ideal model, the grip of the LH should be perpendicular to the RH one, i.e. one should combine a strongish LH with a weakish RH, but it's difficult to do because of the fact that the RH grip is somehow determined by the position of the LH thumb on the shaft. But, as I said, if it is close to it it's enough, IMHO.

 

Cheers

[Swoosh-Thud]

Moreover, post-secret Hogan could swing the club with a short LH thumb, what emphasizes it even more (it's anatomically easier to achieve a big wrist **** with a long thumb). He had much better control and he did not lose anything from his lag. Simple, huh ? :rolleyes:

 

 

Dariusz. The beauty of the Slicefixer grip is that it rests on the club like a short thumb, but acts like a long thumb.

 

Corrected. Freudian slip.....

[sevam1]

Dariusz J.

 

You were mentioning that Hogan must have had an advanced understanding of biokinetics. I am curious about something. During the war Hogan was a fitness instructor in the US Army Air Corps. I wonder what he might have learned from the miltary training manuals of that day.

 

Sevam1

[hoganfan924]

Dariusz J.

 

You were mentioning that Hogan must have had an advanced understanding of biokinetics. I am curious about something. During the war Hogan was a fitness instructor in the US Army Air Corps. I wonder what he might have learned from the miltary training manuals of that day.

 

Sevam1

 

If you read 5 lessons very carefully, it is clear that Hogan understood exactly what terms like pronation and supination meant, even though he kind of mucked up that section of the book by simultaneously introducing the "bowed left wrist" through impact, which confused thousands of golfers for decades (and still does). It was unheard of in the golf books that era (and even to this day) to use the proper medical terms for these movements. I think Hogan had a brilliant mind, was extremely inquisitive and constantly tinkered with trying things out to see how they would affect his motion. I had the wonderful opportunity to have lunch with a fellow that had caddied for Hogan many times. When I asked him what was the biggest thing that set Hogan apart, he said "His mind. He thought differently than everybody else." It wouldn't surprise me if the Military training manuals had some influence on Hogan.

 

Slicefixer and Mac O'grady teach the same basic grip. Most would classify it as "strong left, weak right." I'd just call in neutral as that is the way both arms tend to naturally hang. One big advantage of that combination is that it allows you to put the right wrist into full dorsi-flexion without bowing (palmer flexing) the left wrist at the top of the backswing. In other words, you can fully **** the left wrist and fully set the right wrist while still having a slight cup in the back of the left wrist and achieving that extreme acute angle between the left arm and clubshaft at the top of the backswing - Hogan's famous maximum lag position.

 

Dariusz, I'm happy for you that you've come to the conclusion that the Hardy OPS was not Hogan's swing and that twist & throw was not Hogan's way and is inferior to what Hogan actually did. Hogan had it right all along. Finally some modern day instructors are coming around to that conclusion (even if they don't understand what he really did).

 

I think Hogan also believed in a "theory of limitations" in regards to the golf swing. Remember his words in 5 lessons, something like "a muscle operating at full output will operate more repeatably than one operating at something less." And his Nick Seitz interview "Training myself, I rolled the face open as fast and as far as I could."

[magnum184]

Well, all I know is that I find it extremely rare that I ever get out of sync with a set like that. Short, short arm swing/ full wrist set. And that is something I have to constantly monitor and a fault I often struggle with.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Believe that quote belongs to Byron Nelson not Hogan. dts

 

Sorry, thought I addressed this. Yup, I remember reading it in Venturi's book.......automatically thought it was Hogan, my bad.

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz J.

 

You were mentioning that Hogan must have had an advanced understanding of biokinetics. I am curious about something. During the war Hogan was a fitness instructor in the US Army Air Corps. I wonder what he might have learned from the miltary training manuals of that day.

 

Sevam1

 

Sevam, I think this fact helped Hogan tremendously in understanding of basic biokinetics, at least. I do not know if he was choosen among soldiers during that time for this function because he was a famous athlete or he had been previously specially prepared to such a function. I think that his knowledge of medical terms (as HoganFan said in his post quoted below) is a solid proof that he knew this stuff to a considerable degree.

 

 

 

If you read 5 lessons very carefully, it is clear that Hogan understood exactly what terms like pronation and supination meant, even though he kind of mucked up that section of the book by simultaneously introducing the "bowed left wrist" through impact, which confused thousands of golfers for decades (and still does). It was unheard of in the golf books that era (and even to this day) to use the proper medical terms for these movements. I think Hogan had a brilliant mind, was extremely inquisitive and constantly tinkered with trying things out to see how they would affect his motion. I had the wonderful opportunity to have lunch with a fellow that had caddied for Hogan many times. When I asked him what was the biggest thing that set Hogan apart, he said "His mind. He thought differently than everybody else." It wouldn't surprise me if the Military training manuals had some influence on Hogan.

 

Slicefixer and Mac O'grady teach the same basic grip. Most would classify it as "strong left, weak right." I'd just call in neutral as that is the way both arms tend to naturally hang. One big advantage of that combination is that it allows you to put the right wrist into full dorsi-flexion without bowing (palmer flexing) the left wrist at the top of the backswing. In other words, you can fully **** the left wrist and fully set the right wrist while still having a slight cup in the back of the left wrist and achieving that extreme acute angle between the left arm and clubshaft at the top of the backswing - Hogan's famous maximum lag position.

 

Dariusz, I'm happy for you that you've come to the conclusion that the Hardy OPS was not Hogan's swing and that twist & throw was not Hogan's way and is inferior to what Hogan actually did. Hogan had it right all along. Finally some modern day instructors are coming around to that conclusion (even if they don't understand what he really did).

 

I think Hogan also believed in a "theory of limitations" in regards to the golf swing. Remember his words in 5 lessons, something like "a muscle operating at full output will operate more repeatably than one operating at something less." And his Nick Seitz interview "Training myself, I rolled the face open as fast and as far as I could."

 

HF, just a few remarks after reading your post.

 

First, I do agree 100% with what you said about Hogan and his biokinetics know-how.

 

Secondly, I never have heard that Geoff or O'Grady teach such a grip that I have described according to my studies of wrist mechanics. Where I could find the material for this ? I am very curious to see it. Thanks in advance for leading me there.

 

Thirdly, I need to underline for another time - I have not come into conclusion that Hardy's OPS is not exactly the same what was present in Hogan's swing NOW. I said MANY TIMES BEFORE that such concepts as e.g. twist & throw or lawnmower never really existed in Hogan's swing. And I do not treat those concepts as inferior in the category of teaching beginners how to perform a rotary swing - it is just another valid method to do it that can help a lot of golfers to be a better ballstriker. What I do not like in twist & throw is that it helps to get rid of timing issues bringing another timing issues. What I like in this is that the timing issues of twist & throw are much less significant and easier to control than e.g. clubface closing at the very moment of impact. But, in a ideal biokinetical motion there are no place for it for sure.

 

Lastly, thanks for quoting Hogan as regards limitations. Those are very valid and clear quotes of a knowledgeable person whose main goal is to throw out the timing issues out of the swing.

As I said before, I am really surprised now (when I look through the "Big Picture") how many of swing theories are poor and inadequate and no wonder golfers struggle in this game so much, and that I have never met any shades of implying a theory of bikinetical limitations in any of golf books (except 5 Lessons, as I can see now) or any web pages of famous golf instructors. Really, hard to believe.

 

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz. The beauty of the Slicefinger grip is that it rests on the club like a short thumb, but acts like a long thumb.

 

Frank, what is the SLICEFINGER GRIP ? Did you want to say - SLICEFIXER GRIP ?

And where I can see a description of it ?

 

Cheers

[dlygrisse]

Dariusz. The beauty of the Slicefinger grip is that it rests on the club like a short thumb, but acts like a long thumb.

 

Frank, what is the SLICEFINGER GRIP ? Did you want to say - SLICEFIXER GRIP ?

And where I can see a description of it ?

 

Cheers

I think this is the grip Sean Connery used in the James Bond movie to beat Goldfinger in their famous match. :rolleyes:

[xiaoxiong]

Dariusz. The beauty of the Slicefinger grip is that it rests on the club like a short thumb, but acts like a long thumb.

 

Frank, what is the SLICEFINGER GRIP ? Did you want to say - SLICEFIXER GRIP ?

And where I can see a description of it ?

 

Cheers

 

Hi Dariusz,

 

Slice describe the grip he prefer many times here in golfwrx. You may see some pictures from HF's golfwrx profile.

 

and here is from TEConner's compilation.

 

 

enjoy,

Jay

 

========================================================================

The Grip

 

There are two basic types of golf grips: FINGER AND PALM. PALM is ok IF you are a Natural Golf/Moe Norman follower. Otherwise I believe that it is a waste of time and energy and a finger grip is the way to go for most golfers.

There are three versions of FINGER grips:

• Ten Finger or Baseball Grip. This is a great grip for beginners and people with really weak hands, etc. The main drawback is it does not place the hands in a position to work together very well. They are separated on the club. If you manipulate the club with your hands (especially the right hand) to square the face this is a productive grip.

• Interlock Grip. For right handers, the little finger of the right hand is locked or intertwined with the index finger of the left hand. This is a great grip for people with smaller or weaker hands. That being said, Tiger uses it due to Nicklaus’ influence (Nicklaus has tiny hands). The primary negative of the interlock is that it tends to place the pressure points in the lock, which is not where they should be.

• Overlap or Vardon Grip. This is the best overall grip for most people, if done properly. It tends to meld the two hands together into a cohesive unit the best of the three versions. It places the pressure points where they should be: in the last three fingers of the left hand and the middle two fingers of the right hand.

 

How do you place your hands on the club properly?

 

First, get a clean white golf glove for your top hand (left handed glove if you swing right handed).

Draw two parallel lines on the glove. The first one runs from the inside of the crease of the last joint of your left index finger (furthest from the palm) diagonally across your fingers to the outside of the crease of the FIRST joint or beginning of the pinky finger (which actually touches the palm). The second line should run from the inside of the crease of the first joint of the pinky finger diagonally across the fingers to the outside of the crease of the last joint of the index finger. Now you should have two parallel lines running diagonally across the fingers of your glove from the pinky finger/lower palm above the little finger to the last joint of the left index finger.

Now, picture the butt of the grip of the club as a clock. The top of the grip would be twelve o'clock, parallel to the clubface. Directly opposite of this would be the bottom of the grip or six o'clock. Take the club and hold it just below the grip in your right hand. Aim the club at your left hip socket so that is out in front of your chest but pointing at an angle towards your left hip. Your arms should be extended and waist high…relaxed.

Take your left hand and fold it out and extend the fingers and place them together. You should now see the two parallel lines on glove. Place the bottom, six o'clock position of the grip between the two parallel lines. Carefully fold the upper portion of the left hand over the grip until the left thumb and heel pad are on the center-right portion of the grip. The left thumb will now be in a position to support the shaft at the top of the backswing and to support the blow at impact. This is very important so make sure you get it right. If it is done correctly the webbing between the left thumb and index finger will be disguised to form a "V" which now points somewhere towards your right cheek to your right shoulder. The left hand will also feel very secure on the club, like you could easily hit balls with just your left arm only.

Now for the right hand…keeping your new and fundamentally sound left hand grip on the club, now point the shaft just a tad to the left of your navel and keep it at waist high. Fold your right hand out until you can see all the fingers, like you were going to slap someone. Take the middle two fingers of the right hand and curl them upwards to form a "C". Place the bottom of the grip into this "C" with the six o'clock portion of the grip directly across the creases of the first joint of the middle two fingers that is not adjacent to the palm. Fold the fingers around the grip while laying the little finger of the right hand in the gap between the index finger and second finger of the left hand for an overlap.

Carefully fold the “slot” formed by the meaty thumb pad (muscle at the base of the thumb that is in the palm) and the "lifeline" of the palm. The left thumb should fit perfectly into this "slot,” so well that on most people it is almost like a jigsaw puzzle. DO NOT fold the right hand OVER the left thumb. Just place the left thumb in the "slot" until you cannot see it. The "webbing" between the right thumb and index finger will disappear and also form a "V." This "V" should also be pointing somewhere between your right cheek and your right shoulder.

Ideally with most people, the "V" of the LEFT hand should be pointing a little bit more towards the right shoulder than the "V" of the right hand. They should be parallel to one another or with the "V" of the right hand pointing slightly "weaker" than the left.

One other thing that is IMPORTANT is to make sure there is a slight "gap" between the right index finger and the other fingers of the right hand. It will form a sort of a "question mark", "trigger", or upside down "J.” Make sure the nine o'clock portion of the shaft is against the "crook" of the right index/trigger finger, with the thumb lightly compressing against the 3 o'clock position of the grip. The two fingers lightly "pinch" together. If you stick the shaft up in the air, your index finger will feel exactly like you are going to pull the trigger on a pistol. The "trigger finger" ensures that the club does not slip down in between the thumb/index finger at the top of the swing and the trigger also supports the blow at impact.

Without a sound grip you will be building a golf swing designed to overcome a poor grip rather than a golf swing that is greatly aided by a sound grip. As the Great Harvey Penick stated, "show me a person that won't bother to learn to place their hands on a golf club correctly, and I'll show you a person that does NOT want to be a good player!"

Nobody can tell you what the correct strength (weak or strong top hand) of grip is for you. That is best determined through trial and error. I tell all of my students, "I don't care if you see 2, 3, or 4 knuckles in your ‘top’ hand.” I like to see how the student’s arms naturally hang and work from there. By default, most starting points are with two-and-one-half to three knuckles showing on the top hand. The most important point is that both hands complement each other so they can work together in a fundamentally sound fashion. If you place your hands on the golf club properly the two hands and wrists can, without thought, allow a proper release. Grip it improperly and they cannot and the player is left to create some compensating move or moves to attempt to make up for the incorrect set of the golf club resulting from a poor grip. Compensation is an "error for an error," and sooner or later the compensations break down.

As a general rule, in my experience, the more rotational body speed a player has, the stronger they need to grip the golf club in order for the clubface to square up naturally (passive hands) through impact. If not, then they will have to manipulate the face through impact or they will block or slice the golf ball if they are turning through the ball well…or they will be forced to "turn the toe down" to square the face (resulting in some quick hook). The slower the player’s core/trunk/torso rotation then the weaker they should grip so as to ensure the toe does not turn down through impact and create hooks and pulls.

A player that has a tendency to get stuck can sometimes benefit greatly from strengthening their grip. The fact that the SHAFT is attacking from too far behind the player (too shallow) is compensated for by the face being in a bit stronger position in the downswing. One compensates for the other and the clubface still squares up without manipulation.

You can tell very little in regards to a player's strength of grip from a face on view. This is because you cannot see the amount of hang of the arms from face on. The hang can greatly distort the grip strength. If you have low hands like Zoeller or Hubert Green and your grip will appear stronger than it is in reality. If you have high hands like David Graham or Hogan and it will appear weaker than in reality. The same can be said for how far back or forward your hands are at address. With hands forward the grip appears weaker; with hands back it appears stronger. You must have the down-the-line view to truly determine how strong a person's grip is in reality.

Try it for yourself. Set up in front of a full length mirror and check out your grip; then lower your hands and imitate the hang of Zoeller/Green and watch that left wrist cup and appear stronger; then stand up taller and allow your hands to work up into more of a Moe Norman single line set up and watch that left wrist flatten. Now ask yourself this question, "did I change my grip?" Obvious answer is no, you changed how your arms hang from your body (and more than likely your spine tilt too). As an aside, most experts will tell you that Hogan had a "very weak grip," which was not really all that weak. It simply appeared weak because he stood so erect and his arms did not hang nearly as much as modern players. He had a simple (barely) two-knuckle left hand with "high hands" and a very erect spine/body tilt (the two usually go together).

Most great ball strikers will grip the club in a manner that both hands are complementing each other and can "work together as a team.”

[Dariusz J.]

Thanks, Jay.

 

I consider this description of the grip as nearly perfect.

 

The only issue with it I can have now, from the biokinetical view, is that the ideal model of a grip that I tried to describe in one of my above posts in the thread as both hands working perpendicularily to each other would be:

 

- instead: the "V" of the LEFT hand should be pointing a little bit more towards the right shoulder than the "V" of the right hand. They should be parallel to one another or with the "V" of the right hand pointing slightly "weaker" than the left - is: the "V" of the LEFT hand should be pointing a lot more towards the right shoulder while the "V" of the RIGHT hand should point to the chin. They should NOT be parallel to one another because the "V" of the right hand is pointing a lot "weaker" than the left.

 

and, additionally, it should be pointed out that:

 

- in a Vardon (overlapping) grip the right hand pinky finger should not be hooked very deep over the left index finger (much shallower than in 5 Lessons; in fact only its phallanx distalis should be overlapped crossly over the phallanx media of the left hand index finger. The question is if it is not too weak connection - if it appears too weak it would suggest that it is not possible to be very close to the ideal model of the grip.

 

Please do not read the above as an atttemplt to correct Hogan, Geoff or anybody else - I just wanted to present what, IMHO, is the most efficient grip should look like from the biokinetical point of view.

 

 

Cheers

[Taylormadematt]

Dariusz, i'm sure i read in here somewhere that you can never be stood to close the golf ball, IMOP i think alot of golfer's would benefit from standing closer to the ball as it always seems to me that they are reaching for it and the downswing, which also may seem as there coming OTT or flipping of the wrist's.

 

Whats your take on standing closer from a biokinetics point of view?

 

(Makes great reading what your writing)

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, i'm sure i read in here somewhere that you can never be stood to close the golf ball, IMOP i think alot of golfer's would benefit from standing closer to the ball as it always seems to me that they are reaching for it and the downswing, which also may seem as there coming OTT or flipping of the wrist's.

 

Whats your take on standing closer from a biokinetics point of view?

 

(Makes great reading what your writing)

 

 

Matt, let's look first what happens with the upper part of the body if someone stands closer to the ball than usually (forgetting about necessary, in some cases, adjustment of lie angle in clubs that should happen):

a. either you need to decrease your spine angle and to stand more erect;

b. or you need to bend your arms in elbows more and stick them out more.

 

ad.a. The spine angle value cannot be decreased too much since your arms either will be out of plane (too flat) while remaining them not higher than shoulder line or they would need to be raised above it. As we know, if the arms plane is too upright, it's much harder to subdue them to the body turn;

 

ad.b. If the arms (especially, right arm) are too bent in elbows, its much harder to achieve the optimal position (especially, again, for right arm), i.e. with the elbow pointing back.

 

Thus, I would not recommend having the ball so close to the body that the afore mentioned scenarios happen.

 

On the other hand, however, a close ball position for a rotary swinger forces the golfer automatically to tie the arms movement with the main body movement which is crucial for eliminating timing issues out.

If we start to place the ball further from the body, although it would be easier to create a good and stable plane of the swing around the body with arms perpendicular to the spine in the motion, it would be also progressively harder to tie the upper parts of the arms entirely to the main body and find a decent amount of connection and the leverage.

 

Therefore, IMHO, the most correct answer to your question would be best illustrated by the following primitive scheme (I am sorry, I couldn't do it better since I can't upload a .bmt file here)

 

______________|-----------------------

 

 

where:

 

section 1. (____) describes the dead zone of a too close to the body ball position;

peak 2. (|) describes the closest possible ball position that allows for having a big enough spine angle and RH elbow pointing back;

section 3. (------)describes progressively worsening scenarios of having the ball located too far away from the body.

 

Reasumming, you are right in your suspicions that one should look for the closest possible ball position, however, one should never overdo it and pass into the dead zone.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

P.S. The above post is strictly referring to biomechanic studies; I do not want to go into answering in detail what swing flaws are being caused by a too close or too far away ball position since there are much better experts than myself here on the Forum, who can explain it much better.

[Taylormadematt]

Dariusz, i'm sure i read in here somewhere that you can never be stood to close the golf ball, IMOP i think alot of golfer's would benefit from standing closer to the ball as it always seems to me that they are reaching for it and the downswing, which also may seem as there coming OTT or flipping of the wrist's.

 

Whats your take on standing closer from a biokinetics point of view?

 

(Makes great reading what your writing)

 

 

Matt, let's look first what happens with the upper part of the body if someone stands closer to the ball than usually (forgetting about necessary, in some cases, adjustment of lie angle in clubs that should happen):

a. either you need to decrease your spine angle and to stand more erect;

b. or you need to bend your arms in elbows more and stick them out more.

 

ad.a. The spine angle value cannot be decreased too much since your arms either will be out of plane (too flat) while remaining them not higher than shoulder line or they would need to be raised above it. As we know, if the arms plane is too upright, it's much harder to subdue them to the body turn;

 

ad.b. If the arms (especially, right arm) are too bent in elbows, its much harder to achieve the optimal position (especially, again, for right arm), i.e. with the elbow pointing back.

 

Thus, I would not recommend having the ball so close to the body that the afore mentioned scenarios happen.

 

On the other hand, however, a close ball position for a rotary swinger forces the golfer automatically to tie the arms movement with the main body movement which is crucial for eliminating timing issues out.

If we start to place the ball further from the body, although it would be easier to create a good and stable plane of the swing around the body with arms perpendicular to the spine in the motion, it would be also progressively harder to tie the upper parts of the arms entirely to the main body and find a decent amount of connection and the leverage.

 

Therefore, IMHO, the most correct answer to your question would be best illustrated by the following primitive scheme (I am sorry, I couldn't do it better since I can't upload a .bmt file here)

 

______________|-----------------------

 

 

where:

 

section 1. (____) describes the dead zone of a too close to the body ball position;

peak 2. (|) describes the closest possible ball position that allows for having a big enough spine angle and RH elbow pointing back;

section 3. (------)describes progressively worsening scenarios of having the ball located too far away from the body.

 

Reasumming, you are right in your suspicions that one should look for the closest possible ball position, however, one should never overdo it and pass into the dead zone.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

P.S. The above post is strictly referring to biomechanic studies; I do not want to go into answering in detail what swing flaws are being caused by a too close or too far away ball position since there are much better experts than myself here on the Forum, who can explain it much better.

 

 

Thanks for that, i agree with what you said that maybe inbetween is a good idea, i've played with a few Pro's and also seen Tour pro's play and it always seems to me that they stand closer to the ball than your average weekend golfer in IMOP, always seems to me that there is not enough of room to fit a fist inbetween the groin and the butt end of a club.