The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion

[Dariusz J.]

Matt, I would not call it "in between"; a better description would be "as close as possible without entering the dead zone". :rolleyes:

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

OK, a little off-topic question to our Forum Hogan Afficionados - does anyone know MORE OR LESS EXACTLY (or know the reliable source) what was Mr.Hogan's injuries due to the car crash ? What I know is that his pelvis bones were broken (but which ones?) as well as one leg (but which one ?); I do not know anything if his arms or spine suffered as well.

 

I suspect that the natural limitations of his body segments changed diametrally that can be seen while comparing videos from 1946-49 and post 1951; I would like to analyze why he played the best golf in the history of golf starting from 1951, i.e. 5 years after discovering The Secret" and after the crash.

 

Thanks in advance, cheers.

[eightiron]

OK, a little off-topic question to our Forum Hogan Afficionados - does anyone know MORE OR LESS EXACTLY (or know the reliable source) what was Mr.Hogan's injuries due to the car crash ? What I know is that his pelvis bones were broken (but which ones?) as well as one leg (but which one ?); I do not know anything if his arms or spine suffered as well.

 

I suspect that the natural limitations of his body segments changed diametrally that can be seen while comparing videos from 1946-49 and post 1951; I would like to analyze why he played the best golf in the history of golf starting from 1951, i.e. 5 years after discovering The Secret" and after the crash.

 

Thanks in advance, cheers.

 

I think doctors were sure if he walked again he most probably would not play golf again. One thing though it has been stated his left eye was damaged so maybe his eye dominance changed post accident and turned him into a stack and tilter. Just kidding

[Dariusz J.]

I think doctors were sure if he walked again he most probably would not play golf again. One thing though it has been stated his left eye was damaged so maybe his eye dominance changed post accident and turned him into a stack and tilter. Just kidding

 

 

Yep, I know it all from The Ben Hogan Collection DVD. However, I have never encountered what exactly was Hogan's injuries. Too bad that prolly noone today can help in this matter...

 

BTW, don't laugh - if you compare the head movement and backswing length before and after crash, you will see that his head does not turn so much as well as his backswing got shorter.

But saying that Hogan was a S&T golfer, even after the accident, is simply ridiculous and I know that you were joking, mate :black eye:

 

 

Chhers

[Dariusz J.]

OK, I would like to finish this thread unofficially and thank all the active participants as well as readers.

If only the info helped at least one golfer or evoked the interest in biomechanics - I regard my task as fulfilled. :russian_roulette:

 

Cheers

 

 

P.S. My studies will continue, of course, and if I have something really important to add (or to correct what has been already written by me) I won't hesitate to do it.

[magnum184]

Thank you, Dariusz.

[dlygrisse]

Thank you, very interesting thread.

[trapsmv15]

Darius, I just need to say that I have immensely underestimated your knowledge of the golf swing and of science, and, as a fellow golfer, I just need to say "thank you" for this thread. You have my utmost respect and appreciation!

 

-ryan

[Dariusz J.]

Thank you all very much for the kind words, I truly appreciate it.

 

Cheers

[caligolfer]

Dariusz J., I'd just like to thank you for all of this great info, and I know the thread is over, but I'd like to quickly add my findings. The part about getting the greatest separation between the rear shoulder and the lead hip really helps me understand what is happening in good player's swings. This helps remove the urge to lunge at the ball with the body and head and maximizes lag in the downswing. I dont try to restrict the hips, but I do feel "quiet knees" on the backswing, which helps me get into that desired position for the rest of the swing. Cheers my man

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz J., I'd just like to thank you for all of this great info, and I know the thread is over, but I'd like to quickly add my findings. The part about getting the greatest separation between the rear shoulder and the lead hip really helps me understand what is happening in good player's swings. This helps remove the urge to lunge at the ball with the body and head and maximizes lag in the downswing. I dont try to restrict the hips, but I do feel "quiet knees" on the backswing, which helps me get into that desired position for the rest of the swing. Cheers my man

 

 

Thank you, glad the thread could help you a bit. It's the sweetest reward for the author :)

 

Cheers

[martinez]

Hi there, first post for me. Been lurking just long enough to read/digest this thread and the first third and last part of the "Secret" thread. I'm a former player, come teacher and hopefully soon to be a player again.

 

I doubt this thread is over unless you want it to be Dariusz. I will be asking you many questions and hopefully offering a fresh perspective on some of these ideas. I'm particularly interested in learning more about the biokinetics/mechanics of the elbows and arms in the swing.

 

I'm very happy to have found this forum with so many keen students of the game. :cheesy:

[Dariusz J.]

Hi there, first post for me. Been lurking just long enough to read/digest this thread and the first third and last part of the "Secret" thread. I'm a former player, come teacher and hopefully soon to be a player again.

 

I doubt this thread is over unless you want it to be Dariusz. I will be asking you many questions and hopefully offering a fresh perspective on some of these ideas. I'm particularly interested in learning more about the biokinetics/mechanics of the elbows and arms in the swing.

 

I'm very happy to have found this forum with so many keen students of the game. :cheesy:

 

Thank you, Martinez. I perfectly know that there is no end on this topic. It would be great if someone could add something or bring fresh ideas that could make the whole thread and the very idea of biokinetic swing better or clearer. I am perfectly aware that the theory is not perfect.

Be my guest, mate !

 

Cheers

[martinez]

Firstly, I want to say that the discussion on eye dominance has helped me enormously to understand and address what I consider the last major flaw in my action. I am right eye dominant and my chin has been rotating ever so slightly to the right as I come off the ball. This has made the ball "wobble" for want of a better description. I also have had a problem recently releasing my head. I can clearly see the result of this of the right side being blocked soon after impact.

 

I hit the ball well for a year or two where I would let my eyes follow the flight of the ball immediately, and will go back to doing that as I believe it is ideal for me. The trouble I had back then was I had large holes in my technique that needed addressing and in doing that it took me away from my "feeling". That feeling as I understand it now, was not just mental, it was fundamentally sound for someone with my eye dominance.

 

As for the discussion on the arms, I liked your description of what you perceive Hogan to have been doing with the right arm (elbow under, forearm over). I completely agree. I want to add that I believe the ideal way to use the arms is to have both arms performing this movement throughout the swing, guided by the shoulder joints rotating in such a way as to keep the elbows working toward each other. This serves two main purposes in the swing. One, to marry the arms to the main body and two, to allow for maximum width with minimum muscular interference as the entire weight of the club moves directly away from the ball. It also means that the arms never need change direction in the swing. They start with this motion and can continue to move in the same direction relative to the body for the entire main body swing. This means that the hands (top part of the bottom nunchaku) are reacting to the forces of of the club.

 

I just realised I don't have time to explain this thought to the extent I want to at this time. Time to go to work. :D

[JackieTreehorn]

BTW, I now wonder if Mike (Pole Position) is not an amidextrous person as well since he was having problems with determining which eye of his is dominant e.g. seeing two fingers instead one while doing the test. It's another question for a specialist.

 

Cheers

 

Great thread. To bring back the eye dominance part:

I am close to ambidexterous (usually favor one side but pretty good from the other) and also have issues with eye dominance tests.

For the vertical line test I also see two images of my finger. Doing my best with it, if I use my right hand, I come up right eye dominant. If I use my left hand I come up left eye dominant.

On most "standard" eye dominance test I come up left eye dominant, but that changes for close objects. I think I am more right eye dominant because I feel a lot more comfortable looking into a microscope with my right eye.

 

BTW I am a good player, working on a 1-plane or S/T swing struggling with early extension (spine angle) and a head that drops down and back...almost like the Luke Donald pics.

[Dariusz J.]

Firstly, I want to say that the discussion on eye dominance has helped me enormously to understand and address what I consider the last major flaw in my action. I am right eye dominant and my chin has been rotating ever so slightly to the right as I come off the ball. This has made the ball "wobble" for want of a better description. I also have had a problem recently releasing my head. I can clearly see the result of this of the right side being blocked soon after impact.

I hit the ball well for a year or two where I would let my eyes follow the flight of the ball immediately, and will go back to doing that as I believe it is ideal for me. The trouble I had back then was I had large holes in my technique that needed addressing and in doing that it took me away from my "feeling". That feeling as I understand it now, was not just mental, it was fundamentally sound for someone with my eye dominance.

 

I am very happy that this thread has helped you to find something useful for your motion, the more you are an accomplished player. It is the best prove that no matter how skillfull is a golfer, studying and applying biomechanic ideas is, at least, desirable.

I was always of the opinion, contrary to many beliefs and popular instructions, that the issue of eye dominance is of big importance. It really can influence the whole motion, CoG shifts, counterbalancing, etc. Such great ballstrikers as Annika, Duval or Furyk (that are presented as weird exceptions) prove that this issue is underrated and that a RH right eye dominant person can play excellent golf when understanding one's body "flaws". I strongly believe that the vast majority of top class golfers that we can see on TV are cross eye dominant persons and this is one of many reasons why it was easier for them to reach this level and, consequently, why popular instructions put all golfers to one sack.

 

 

 

 

As for the discussion on the arms, I liked your description of what you perceive Hogan to have been doing with the right arm (elbow under, forearm over). I completely agree. I want to add that I believe the ideal way to use the arms is to have both arms performing this movement throughout the swing, guided by the shoulder joints rotating in such a way as to keep the elbows working toward each other. This serves two main purposes in the swing. One, to marry the arms to the main body and two, to allow for maximum width with minimum muscular interference as the entire weight of the club moves directly away from the ball. It also means that the arms never need change direction in the swing. They start with this motion and can continue to move in the same direction relative to the body for the entire main body swing. This means that the hands (top part of the bottom nunchaku) are reacting to the forces of of the club.

I just realised I don't have time to explain this thought to the extent I want to at this time. Time to go to work. :D

 

 

It is a great description and entirely correct. Rear elbow joint action is a cousin of rear knee one. We all know how important are Sevam's discoveries as regards lower part of the body. It has dawned on me recently, that what I tried to describe in The Arms section, was not more not less but an equivalent of The Move that refers to the upper distal parts of the body - the difference is that the arms neither can find a shear force nor are free in the motion (they hold the club). Correct presetting of the elbow-hand system is a key for an on plane automatic backswing and downswing - Hogan found it in 1946 and became one of the two the best and most consistent ballstrikers that ever lived.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Great thread. To bring back the eye dominance part:

I am close to ambidexterous (usually favor one side but pretty good from the other) and also have issues with eye dominance tests.

For the vertical line test I also see two images of my finger. Doing my best with it, if I use my right hand, I come up right eye dominant. If I use my left hand I come up left eye dominant.

On most "standard" eye dominance test I come up left eye dominant, but that changes for close objects. I think I am more right eye dominant because I feel a lot more comfortable looking into a microscope with my right eye.

 

BTW I am a good player, working on a 1-plane or S/T swing struggling with early extension (spine angle) and a head that drops down and back...almost like the Luke Donald pics.

 

Well, you are a very lucky man if you are an ambidextrous person. My personal opinion is that S&T swing suits much better a rear eye dominant players. I'd suggest you to hit balls with one eye closed - e.g. S&T with left eye closed and Hogan's swing with your right eye closed in order to determine and maybe "convince" your subconscious mind which is the really dominant eye when you play golf.

I would also risk to say, that an uncorrect head movement may be one of culprits for early extension - imagine a scenario when a right eye dominant golfer keeps his lead eye before the ball (that is equal to keep the rear dominant eye too much behind the ball) - his subconscious mind leads him to urge the hands to "reach for the distant ball" and, consequently, the golfer is forced to activate the hands and lose his angles sooner than necessary. I am last man who would like to claim it as an undisputable fact, but I guess it's worth examining the rightness of this matter.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Firstly, I want to say that the discussion on eye dominance has helped me enormously to understand and address what I consider the last major flaw in my action. I am right eye dominant and my chin has been rotating ever so slightly to the right as I come off the ball. This has made the ball "wobble" for want of a better description. I also have had a problem recently releasing my head. I can clearly see the result of this of the right side being blocked soon after impact.

I hit the ball well for a year or two where I would let my eyes follow the flight of the ball immediately, and will go back to doing that as I believe it is ideal for me. The trouble I had back then was I had large holes in my technique that needed addressing and in doing that it took me away from my "feeling". That feeling as I understand it now, was not just mental, it was fundamentally sound for someone with my eye dominance.

 

I am very happy that this thread has helped you to find something useful for your motion, the more you are an accomplished player. It is the best prove that no matter how skillfull is a golfer, studying and applying biomechanic ideas is, at least, desirable.

I was always of the opinion, contrary to many beliefs and popular instructions, that the issue of eye dominance is of big importance. It really can influence the whole motion, CoG shifts, counterbalancing, etc. Such great ballstrikers as Annika, Duval or Furyk (that are presented as weird exceptions) prove that this issue is underrated and that a RH right eye dominant person can play excellent golf when understanding one's body "flaws". I strongly believe that the vast majority of top class golfers that we can see on TV are cross eye dominant persons and this is one of many reasons why it was easier for them to reach this level and, consequently, why popular instructions put all golfers to one sack.

 

 

 

 

As for the discussion on the arms, I liked your description of what you perceive Hogan to have been doing with the right arm (elbow under, forearm over). I completely agree. I want to add that I believe the ideal way to use the arms is to have both arms performing this movement throughout the swing, guided by the shoulder joints rotating in such a way as to keep the elbows working toward each other. This serves two main purposes in the swing. One, to marry the arms to the main body and two, to allow for maximum width with minimum muscular interference as the entire weight of the club moves directly away from the ball. It also means that the arms never need change direction in the swing. They start with this motion and can continue to move in the same direction relative to the body for the entire main body swing. This means that the hands (top part of the bottom nunchaku) are reacting to the forces of of the club.

I just realised I don't have time to explain this thought to the extent I want to at this time. Time to go to work. :D

 

 

It is a great description and entirely correct. Rear elbow joint action is a cousin of rear knee one. We all know how important are Sevam's discoveries as regards lower part of the body. It has dawned on me recently, that what I tried to describe in The Arms section, was not more not less but an equivalent of The Move that refers to the upper distal parts of the body - the difference is that the arms neither can find a shear force nor are free in the motion (they hold the club). Correct presetting of the elbow-hand system is a key for an on plane automatic backswing and downswing - Hogan found it in 1946 and became one of the two the best and most consistent ballstrikers that ever lived.

 

Cheers

 

 

Martinez, in order not to say just "empty words", I have asked my son to record a swing with what I regard as biomechanically optimal position of grip-elbow system in motion, that brings necessary limitations and almost automatic backswing and downswing action on elbow plane. You can observe it on my new .GIF animated icon and here are the photos:

 

 

 

 

The "biokinetical" grip is somehow difficult to ingrain and the rear elbow is sore at the beginning from presetting moves, however, a few 10-minute repetitions in a few weeks helps a lot. I think I will ingrain it totally during winter time :)

If I myself with my countless body flaws am able to achieve a Hogan-like downswing and impact motion of arms - I am sure that everyone can...

 

 

 

Cheers

[sevam1]

Firstly, I want to say that the discussion on eye dominance has helped me enormously to understand and address what I consider the last major flaw in my action. I am right eye dominant and my chin has been rotating ever so slightly to the right as I come off the ball. This has made the ball "wobble" for want of a better description. I also have had a problem recently releasing my head. I can clearly see the result of this of the right side being blocked soon after impact.

I hit the ball well for a year or two where I would let my eyes follow the flight of the ball immediately, and will go back to doing that as I believe it is ideal for me. The trouble I had back then was I had large holes in my technique that needed addressing and in doing that it took me away from my "feeling". That feeling as I understand it now, was not just mental, it was fundamentally sound for someone with my eye dominance.

 

I am very happy that this thread has helped you to find something useful for your motion, the more you are an accomplished player. It is the best prove that no matter how skillfull is a golfer, studying and applying biomechanic ideas is, at least, desirable.

I was always of the opinion, contrary to many beliefs and popular instructions, that the issue of eye dominance is of big importance. It really can influence the whole motion, CoG shifts, counterbalancing, etc. Such great ballstrikers as Annika, Duval or Furyk (that are presented as weird exceptions) prove that this issue is underrated and that a RH right eye dominant person can play excellent golf when understanding one's body "flaws". I strongly believe that the vast majority of top class golfers that we can see on TV are cross eye dominant persons and this is one of many reasons why it was easier for them to reach this level and, consequently, why popular instructions put all golfers to one sack.

 

 

 

 

As for the discussion on the arms, I liked your description of what you perceive Hogan to have been doing with the right arm (elbow under, forearm over). I completely agree. I want to add that I believe the ideal way to use the arms is to have both arms performing this movement throughout the swing, guided by the shoulder joints rotating in such a way as to keep the elbows working toward each other. This serves two main purposes in the swing. One, to marry the arms to the main body and two, to allow for maximum width with minimum muscular interference as the entire weight of the club moves directly away from the ball. It also means that the arms never need change direction in the swing. They start with this motion and can continue to move in the same direction relative to the body for the entire main body swing. This means that the hands (top part of the bottom nunchaku) are reacting to the forces of of the club.

I just realised I don't have time to explain this thought to the extent I want to at this time. Time to go to work. :D

 

 

It is a great description and entirely correct. Rear elbow joint action is a cousin of rear knee one. We all know how important are Sevam's discoveries as regards lower part of the body. It has dawned on me recently, that what I tried to describe in The Arms section, was not more not less but an equivalent of The Move that refers to the upper distal parts of the body - the difference is that the arms neither can find a shear force nor are free in the motion (they hold the club). Correct presetting of the elbow-hand system is a key for an on plane automatic backswing and downswing - Hogan found it in 1946 and became one of the two the best and most consistent ballstrikers that ever lived.

 

Cheers

 

 

Martinez, in order not to say just "empty words", I have asked my son to record a swing with what I regard as biomechanically optimal position of grip-elbow system in motion, that brings necessary limitations and almost automatic backswing and downswing action on elbow plane. You can observe it on my new .GIF animated icon and here are the photos:

 

 

 

 

The "biokinetical" grip is somehow difficult to ingrain and the rear elbow is sore at the beginning from presetting moves, however, a few 10-minute repetitions in a few weeks helps a lot. I think I will ingrain it totally during winter time :)

If I myself with my countless body flaws am able to achieve a Hogan-like downswing and impact motion of arms - I am sure that everyone can...

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Looks good Dariusz!

Sevam1

[Dariusz J.]

Thanks, Mike !

 

More important is, however, how relatively EASY is to get there...and imagine how a young man with a healthy body can look :)

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

JD cool gif...one question im lazy with the reading. Right elbow under / forearm over ? is this address position?

[Dariusz J.]

JD cool gif...one question im lazy with the reading. Right elbow under / forearm over ? is this address position?

 

Thanks, Eightiron. :)

Yes, all what is important happens at address/set-up - elbow joint pointing at the rear hip, presetted forearm turn and the right hand in a really weak position on top of the grip (while the lead one is not so weak in any sense - forget parallel thumbs). The rest is just an automatic consequence - that's the beauty of the whole thing, since there is no chance of introducing a timing element into the motion.

In short, the whole trick is to find (via correct presetting) a natural limitation of the hand-wrist-forearm-elbow system before starting backswing that makes this part of the swing automatic. What happens after transition is a logical continuation of an on-plane upswing plus the magic of the right elbow/forearm that is turboing the pivot while going down without worrying about overrotation.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

The "biokinetical" grip is somehow difficult to ingrain and the rear elbow is sore at the beginning from presetting moves, however, a few 10-minute repetitions in a few weeks helps a lot. I think I will ingrain it totally during winter time :)

 

A small, but somehow important update. It was easier than I thought to ingrain this grip without any negative feeling issues while swinging clubs. But it is not the primary goal of this post.

 

I've read a lot recently - especially, articles on human anatomy in order to deepen the base for my biomechanical studies and I have paid attention to the relation of natural position of the wrists and the position and function of clavicles. Long story short - it is important for stability and ergonomy of the motion of the upper part of the main body (torso) to keep the clavicle bones in neutral position as long as possible, or, at least, to start the motion with it. What is important, clavicles not only transmit physical impacts caused by the arms motion but also ensures a maximum possible range of motions for arms - provided they are in a neutal position. It is a very important thing, IMHO, for bringing automatism in putting strokes - I'll get to it later on.

Going back for a natural position of the wrists, we shall find that neither "anatomical position" (palms are directed forward) nor "gorilla position" (palms are directed backwards) is natural for the wrists. When we stand freely and let our arms hang freely too, we can observe that the plane of the palms (both of them) are angled inward at ca. 45 degrees. And this is how the hands should be placed on the grip in order to maintain the neutral position of clavicle bones. As I said in my posts dedicated to the grip in this thread - both palms are angled to each other 90 degrees letting to align naturally the lead wrist cocking (radial deviation) with the rear wrist hinging (dorsi flexion).

 

For the moment, I find the "biokinetical grip" as extremely superior to the classic grip for the following very important reasons:

- creating optimal conditions for the automatic takeaway directly;

- creating optimal conditions for creating "lag" directly;

- creating optimal conditions for the trigger finger pressure point to act directly;

- creating optimal conditions for the short lead thumb to appear automatically directly;

- creating optimal conditions for minimizing any hands motion in a pivot-guided swing indirectly;

- creating optimal conditions for letting the early elbow plane in the downswing phase indirectly.

 

Last, but not least, I personally find it very interesting that the "biokinetical grip" may be used without NO SINGLE CHANGE for holding a putter, allowing the rotation of the neutral clavicle bones plane to lead the putting stroke. It is amazing how easier is to putt on a true arc taking the impact of the hands out and, simultaneously, how easy is to apply a correct force for the stroke. Besides, I cannot imagine anyting better than to have one and the same grip for all clubs, putter included.

 

I am aware how "revolutionary", "thought-provoking" or even "stupid" the above verses may be viewed, however, I am also aware now how imperfect are "classic" golf swing theories - this time when describing a "proper" grip with two palms facing each other or with parallel V's. Moreover, we need to see how Mr.Hogan's grip has evolved (although even late Hogan's grip was not so "extreme") and compare it to my findings. If someone is ready to try if what I have found makes sense - I'll await serious comments with anxiety.

 

Cheers

[Richie3Jack]

Darius,

 

This is really great, informative stuff. Back to the dominant eye though. I'm right handed, but with a clear dominant *left* eye, would this help cause me to get the head well behind the ball at impact?

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[Dariusz J.]

Darius,

 

This is really great, informative stuff. Back to the dominant eye though. I'm right handed, but with a clear dominant *left* eye, would this help cause me to get the head well behind the ball at impact?

 

 

3JACK

 

 

Richie, definitely. Cross dominance is one of the gifts from the God that can really matter. You're the lucky one :)

 

Cheers

[Richie3Jack]

Darius,

 

This is really great, informative stuff. Back to the dominant eye though. I'm right handed, but with a clear dominant *left* eye, would this help cause me to get the head well behind the ball at impact?

 

 

3JACK

 

 

Richie, definitely. Cross dominance is one of the gifts from the God that can really matter. You're the lucky one :)

 

Cheers

 

 

Wow...I actually always thought it was curse and one of the reasons I struggle with alignment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[Dariusz J.]

Wow...I actually always thought it was curse and one of the reasons I struggle with alignment.

 

 

3JACK

 

Au contre...it's a bliss. A golfer with a lead dominant eye may keep the entire head behind the ball at impact that allows to benefit from a more efficient usage of the main body in the downswing. The hips can lead the parade while the trunk and the head is left behind creating an optimal spine angle leverage. A rear eye dominant golfer is in a worse situation: either incorrectly and not naturally follows the "imperative" of keeping the entire head behind the ball and brings a lot of problems in his swing, or correctly and naturally keeps the rear half of the head behind the ball, but is not able to achieve an optimal position of the main body (loses leverage a bit).

 

It is great that you have mentioned alignment. A lead eye dominant golfer usually has a more closed stance that a rear eye dominant golfer. The latter often suffers from a too open position of the upper body (shoulders). That is why e.g. Hogan (with his lead dominant eye) had a square/slightly closed shoulder position at address, but his hips were in a slightly open position. It's a perfect stance combination for a golfer with a dominant lead eye since it allows to use the body excellently both during upswing (full shoulder turn) as well as downswing (leading by the hips).

A rear eye dominant golfer (such as myself, alas) is definitely in a worse situation.

 

 

Cheers

[Richie3Jack]

It is great that you have mentioned alignment. A lead eye dominant golfer usually has a more closed stance that a rear eye dominant golfer. The latter often suffers from a too open position of the upper body (shoulders). That is why e.g. Hogan (with his lead dominant eye) had a square/slightly closed shoulder position at address, but his hips were in a slightly open position. It's a perfect stance combination for a golfer with a dominant lead eye since it allows to use the body excellently both during upswing (full shoulder turn) as well as downswing (leading by the hips).

A rear eye dominant golfer (such as myself, alas) is definitely in a worse situation.

 

 

Cheers

 

That's exactly one of my problems. Tend to align closed, sometimes drastically closed. When I struggle it's because I'm drastically closed or I over compensate and get drastically open at address. I also tend to align my putterface right of the target.

 

I also used to bowl as a kid and remember one of my problems is that I would tend to have my body facing too far to the right.

 

Again, real interesting stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[JackieTreehorn]

A small, but somehow important update. It was easier than I thought to ingrain this grip without any negative feeling issues while swinging clubs. But it is not the primary goal of this post.

Going back for a natural position of the wrists, we shall find that neither "anatomical position" (palms are directed forward) nor "gorilla position" (palms are directed backwards) is natural for the wrists. When we stand freely and let our arms hang freely too, we can observe that the plane of the palms (both of them) are angled inward at ca. 45 degrees. And this is how the hands should be placed on the grip in order to maintain the neutral position of clavicle bones. As I said in my posts dedicated to the grip in this thread - both palms are angled to each other 90 degrees letting to align naturally the lead wrist cocking (radial deviation) with the rear wrist hinging (dorsi flexion).

 

So when you say the palms are angled 90 degrees to each other, is that the same as a strong left hand/weak right hand grip? The palms are not parallel though?

 

Also I am unclear about natural hang. If I hang my arms and then rotate my elbows in to get them pointing to my hips, my hands are no longer apelike and more in an "anatomical position". Will the clavicle be neutral if I have to rotate my elbows to get them to point to my hips (cause I do...they point down the line naturally)?

[swats]

Hey Dariusz,

 

What you've done is very informative, thank you very much. I'm not sure if it's been done before, but I (for one) would be very interested in a Biokinetic study of the putting motion. Have you ever thought of doing that? How different variables affect the putting motion from a Biokinetic standpoint, and what the optimal combination of these variables would be?

 

- eye dominance

- stance (open, neutral, closed)

- straight arms vs. bent

- straight back and through vs. arc motion

- putter lengths (regular, belly, long)