Do you need a "perfect" swing to be really good?

[Ezgolfer]

longbutter - are you never tempted to put your swing up on youtube and get some free advice on how to break 80?

 

That 's a mean statement ...

 

Seriously that to me looks an averge to a good swing . Nothing very great about it ...

Are you sure your putting is holding you back ?

[logan91201]

Here is my swing, my friends call it UBE "Ugly but Effective" I play to a +1 and can't putt a lick. I have had the opportunity to play with several Nationwide tour and Hooters tour players all say they would love to have my ball stiking ability. And I cordially say I'll trade it for you putting!!!

 

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm245/b...nt=RickGolf.flv

 

longbutter - are you never tempted to put your swing up on youtube and get some free advice on how to break 80?

 

 

I hope you meant that in a way other than how it seems here.

 

longbutter - are you never tempted to put your swing up on youtube and get some free advice on how to break 80?

 

That 's a mean statement ...

 

Seriously that to me looks an averge to a good swing . Nothing very great about it ...

Are you sure your putting is holding you back ?

 

I see some really good impact alignments, a draw path, and good consistent compression. This guy is a future student of David Orr's, and from his testimonials is a +1 averaging 37 ish putts a round. Obviously testimonials aren.t always true, but his swing looks more solid than most where it counts. And from his other posts I've read (here and Orr's site), he doesn't seem like one of these guys that are full of it.

[Matt10]

Here is my swing, my friends call it UBE "Ugly but Effective" I play to a +1 and can't putt a lick. I have had the opportunity to play with several Nationwide tour and Hooters tour players all say they would love to have my ball stiking ability. And I cordially say I'll trade it for you putting!!!

 

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm245/b...nt=RickGolf.flv

 

I really really really like this action, LB - thanks for posting the vid. Helps those of us who have been trying to be too technical remember not to just give a hoot about how it looks, as long as impact is consistent.

 

Which is why sometimes i regret not taking a closer look at this site:

 

http://www.3skillsgolf.com/index.php?app=c...lg389a4i1h6i920

 

Entire book deals with impact and the necessary skills to make it work.

[logan91201]

Dan ,

 

I have asked this questione before .

 

Why than rotary palyers with left release likes of , Immelman ..., Mahan ,campbell, leonard ( Texas camp mostly ) struggle ... and not win as often as they should .

You are going to say putting ... but these guys are good putters ...

 

Thanks ....

 

 

Haven't studied Mahan and Campbell much but Immelman and Leonard both incorporate dual horizontal hinging, which in my camps opinion, is the least accurate way to play.

 

In really basic terms, the rate of closure is extremely fast .

 

Also there is an X factor that has nothing to do with any of the basic skills (ballstriking, putting, short game) that some people just get it done better than others.

[Richie3Jack]

I've been playing the game for roughly 21 years and the more and more I learn about the geometry and physics of the game and the more and more I watch various people play, I start to realize that there are fewer absolute laws and principles in the golf swing. There are some, like a flat left wrist at impact and there's ways some things that need to happen to get there, but even those ways that pave a path to a flat left wrist at impact can vary quite a bit.

 

In essence, there's no such thing as a perfect golf swing..not even close. There's some things that golfers do that reduce the amount of error or increase the likelihood for error along with things that will likely make the golfer more or less consistent. I still believe the lifeblood of the golf swing is the pivot, but there's many different ways to accomplish an effective pivot.

 

I just think too many golfers and instructors get bogged down on things like the swing plane when they should be learning more about pivot and flat left wrist at impact first and how to accomplish those things on a consistent basis.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[KevCarter]

Here is my swing, my friends call it UBE "Ugly but Effective" I play to a +1 and can't putt a lick. I have had the opportunity to play with several Nationwide tour and Hooters tour players all say they would love to have my ball stiking ability. And I cordially say I'll trade it for you putting!!!

 

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm245/b...nt=RickGolf.flv

 

UBE :lol:

 

Yeah, right. Some poor guy who hasn't been around the block sees you on the range, asks how much you want to play for, and before he knows it, you take him for EVERYTHING he's got. Good alignments where it matters is right, nice action!

 

I'm anxious to follow your progress once you start working with David...

 

Kevin

[birly-shirly]

 

longbutter - are you never tempted to put your swing up on youtube and get some free advice on how to break 80?

 

 

I hope you meant that in a way other than how it seems here.

That 's a mean statement ...

 

 

 

ezgolfer - that depends on how you think I meant it. But if you think I meant it in anything other than a lighthearted way, then I apologise for misleading you, and for any offence taken by Longbutter, who can clearly play plenty and, if he gets any help at all, is going to be breaking 70, not 80. I wish I were that ugly.

 

Logan - I think you did know where I was coming from, but if I owe you a similar apology, consider it done.

[PA1]

Talk about ugly swings, YES jeev milkah singh BUT look at Tommy Gainey....WOA

 

 

Longbutter-swing looks solid

[Parzinski]

Talk about ugly swings, YES jeev milkah singh BUT look at Tommy Gainey....WOA

 

 

Longbutter-swing looks solid

 

 

One of the players I spoke of earlier.....Unbelieveable to watch... Two gloves...Ten fingers...Left thumb around the shaft (like holding a baseball bat)...feet close together...hunched over...Ultra strong grip...playing with the irons that were at least 5+ years old...and a driver that you could find in the bargain bin at your local golf shop...

 

But he can play...course is 7,200+ 75 rating...hit 16 green and the fringe twice..made nothing with putter.....ho hummed a 69.....

 

And he is LONG... didn;t see one drive less than 300...he hit one 365...yes...365..slight breeze AT him....a huge towering draw......

 

AND he's a nice guy...

[PA1]

He absolutely does get it done out there. Good to hear he's a nice guy. What cheap driver does he play?

[longbutter]

I never take things the wrong way I posted it to show folks you don't need a perfect swing to score. I am a +1 and I average 35 plus putter per round so my ball striking is pretty solid. But for real, I have never had a lesson and I am always open for suggestions. You see that swing was created when I was 320 lbs. I have dropped 80 lbs. and am hoping the swing will improve over time. But it will never be pretty cause that just ain't me.

[longbutter]

Pretty sure, I have a SS of 115 with driver and hit 76% fairways and 74% GIR. I have played in the MI amateur championship for years and shot 77's 79's ect. with 40 putts in a round. Last year I played in the NC am. and shot 71 in my qualifier with 36 putts. then shot 80 80 with 79 putts in two days. So I have deduced that I hit it like a tour pro and putt like a 30 handicap. I am going to work with David Orr this spring to get that on the right track.

[longbutter]

Thanks Kevin, you should see my old playing partner uglier move than mine about 5'9" 230 we used to play in a lot of 2 man events and guys would ask if we wanted some action. We would come in -13 to -16 and win lots of $$$$. It is amazing how many times we took the flat belly's cash :o) but I am working my way to flat belly and add it David's help I am very optomistic about the season to come.

[Parzinski]

He absolutely does get it done out there. Good to hear he's a nice guy. What cheap driver does he play?

 

 

It was in '07...but I'm pretty sure it was the orignal Cleveland Launcher...with a junk shaft...and it was Stiff Flex!!!

 

That was before the Adams deal!!

[Parzinski]

This might help us all save some $$

 

 

I looked back at an earlier post of mine...

 

 

He played a Cobra Comp 454 (1st edition) with an Aldila 65 Stiff...yes that piece of ___

green thing..

[longbutter]

Thanks Logan, I am pumped about going to see David. He seems like such a great guy, and his methodology is right down my alley. I am hoping to make some serious progress this year. And I may even have him take a look at my full swing :o)

[sevenlakesmiller]

Listen to Parsinski if it repeats and if it produces results its awesome regardless of what it looks like. From a guy trying to find yet again.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

Look at the greats. Jack Nicklaus had what the "experts" called a flying right elbow.

KC

 

Look at Eamon Darcy, had what Jack Nicklaus would call a flying right elbow :D

http://www.bisazzagolf.com/Eamon%20Darcy%20Swing.swf

[JD3]

Talk about ugly swings, YES jeev milkah singh BUT look at Tommy Gainey....WOA

 

 

Longbutter-swing looks solid

I had a chance to get a get look at Singh's swing live at the Barclays Singapore Open last November. In person he's very impressive, has a lot of power and is cool under pressure. It's funny how much better those swings that look "ugly" on tv suddenly look pretty damn good when you get to see impact and ball flight.

[thenextnumber1]

jduncanm- I agree, ive seen him play 18 close up as well, and its amazing when i go to a pro event and see all these players i see on tv and think woah his swing is very ugly on tv, but close up these guys swings look flamin good!!!!!!! Honestly, tv doesent do peoples swings justice, i was well impressed with his swing in real life, its not near as laid off as it appears and has great rythum. Another one is Liang wen chong, on tv you just take notice of his baseball followthrough, but in real life you realise this guy gets in an amazing position at the top, dead on plane!!!!

 

They all swing it better than they look in swing vision. Everyones swing is going to look flawed and different when they put you on slo-mo!!

 

But have you noticed, you see alot of young amatuers and mini tour pros on these development tours, and they all swing the same.........they are all trying to swing like adam scott, or justin rose. You very really see a young scratch amatuer golfer with a ugly looking swing, or a player on a mini tour.

 

But you see alot of different looking swings on the main tours!!!!!! Because they know there strengths they know they are goin to have the exact same ball flight and exact same misses all the time!

[birly-shirly]

Going back to Longbutter's swing - that to me is one of the most interesting swings you could look at from the point of view of thinking about the real fundamentals of the swing.

 

if your definition of fundamentals means the things that are common or necessary to good ballstrikers, and not the nuances hidden away in the angles achieved by this or that particular superstar, then Longbutter's is a great model to look at. look at the things that don't match what you typically see on tv or learn as conventional wisdom, and wonder about what is really keeping you from a +1 hcp.

 

To be absolutely clear, these comments are not intended as criticisms of Longbutter. This swing works damn well, and what strikes me is that it works despite contradicting several tenets of supposedly conventional wisdom. this to me says more about the value of conventional wisdom and some instructional cliches than about Longbutter's swing.

 

Along these lines, my thoughts were:

 

grip looked strong. maybe not wrong, but strong

 

a hint of targetward head movement on the backswing? reverse-pivot?

 

for a tour calibre swingspeed - you might expect to see a larger turn. Lower body is stable, but didn't look like a huge amount of coil between upper and lower body. Not much "X-factor"?

 

Not much extension or width through the ball. hands must be ahead of the ball at impact to take a good divot, but is that a collapsing left wrist on the way through?

 

down the line, it looks like you lose your spine angle coming into impact

 

on the other hand, balance and rhythm are good, weight transfers well through to left side, speed is clearly good and you can obviously square the clubface to the ball. lastly, though I'm not sure how to put this more precisely, the sequence of movement - torso, arms, wrists - looks right.

 

OK - that's maybe not a complete theory of the golfswing, but to me it's an interesting list of 'rules' that can be broken whilst still hitting a good ball. Thanks for posting your vid Longbutter!

[longbutter]

That is a great post!!!! And I agree with you 100% There are so many wierd things going on but I have been hitting so well for years that I have decided to stick with it and work on my short game. I have had many pros comment on how long I could be if I got the X factor working and didn't colapse my left wrist through impact but I have yet to work with a pro on fixing any of it. In this video I am weighing in at around 250 down from 320. So much of the movements were developed while swinging around a big ole belly. now that it is shrinking I am hoping that I can work my way to a more athletic movement. Any suggestions as to drills that may be useful in improving positions are always welcome. And thanks for taking time to look at my swing and give constructive critisism.

[longbutter]

"for a tour calibre swingspeed - you might expect to see a larger turn. Lower body is stable, but didn't look like a huge amount of coil between upper and lower body. Not much "X-factor"?"

 

My SS is between 113-117 without much turn or x-factor. I have been working very hard in the gym on my flexibility to try to improve in those areas. But I have repeating this swing for so long I am not sure how to use the added mobility in my swing. I need to learn some drills to take advantage of the new found mobility and get that X-factor working. I am sure there is a lot in the tank if I can figure these things out.

[logan91201]

"for a tour calibre swingspeed - you might expect to see a larger turn. Lower body is stable, but didn't look like a huge amount of coil between upper and lower body. Not much "X-factor"?"

 

My SS is between 113-117 without much turn or x-factor. I have been working very hard in the gym on my flexibility to try to improve in those areas. But I have repeating this swing for so long I am not sure how to use the added mobility in my swing. I need to learn some drills to take advantage of the new found mobility and get that X-factor working. I am sure there is a lot in the tank if I can figure these things out.

 

 

The low end of what you say your swing speed is is above tour average. Something to consider when prioritizing what to work on.

[birly-shirly]

this was my learning experience, for sure. when it comes to advising you on how to take your game forward, I'm going to defer to the guys on here who do that for a living.

 

but if you do decide to make changes in your swing, it'd be interesting to hear which way you decide to go and how it pans out.

 

sounds like you're going to look at your short game first, which makes sense. but have you got a clear idea of what you'd be looking to achieve from any changes in your swing? you talked about managing a better coil and turn, and maybe increasing your distance - though as Logan points out, you're already above the tour average, which I think is around 112? are you happy with your normal ballflight? what about consistency - from your stats, you're already hitting a lot of fairways and GIR. do you stay pretty solid in a clutch situation or do you feel as if things can get a bit ragged? or is it just the occasional loose shot that you think you could tighten up?

 

Of course, I'm just guessing at reasons that might lead you to make changes. If these, or something else in your game, isn't giving you concern, I think I'd want to stick with what I knew.

[longbutter]

I am not as concerned with working on SS but becoming more efficient and and using my moving parts better. But that is long term, right now my focus is on putting and short game. Because as you mentioned distance is not something I need, but it never hurts if it comes naturally from becoming more fit and flexible.

[logan91201]

I am not as concerned with working on SS but becoming more efficient and and using my moving parts better. But that is long term, right now my focus is on putting and short game. Because as you mentioned distance is not something I need, but it never hurts if it comes naturally from becoming more fit and flexible.

 

 

Perfect. I just didn't want you to run out there and working on changes in your swing with distance as the primary concern.

[longbutter]

More great points, I strike it pretty consistent, but I my putting has been so bad that i end up putting more pressure on my ball striking in tournaments and then start short siding and so on. So in all reality, I am going to leave it alone for now and concentrate one short game and putting. But my ultimate goal is to be a high level amatuer not just a solid stick. Right now I can make cuts in state ams, but have never competed. So when the putting catches up I will reevaluate the rest of my game and go from there.

[longbutter]

Right on, In the early 90's I did some long drive and was all about distance, now I want to be a better golfer. If I happen to get longer great, but I am not an ego maniac that is chasing distance.

[Deadpool_25]

More great points, I strike it pretty consistent, but I my putting has been so bad that i end up putting more pressure on my ball striking in tournaments and then start short siding and so on. So in all reality, I am going to leave it alone for now and concentrate one short game and putting. But my ultimate goal is to be a high level amatuer not just a solid stick. Right now I can make cuts in state ams, but have never competed. So when the putting catches up I will reevaluate the rest of my game and go from there.

 

 

Right on, In the early 90's I did some long drive and was all about distance, now I want to be a better golfer. If I happen to get longer great, but I am not an ego maniac that is chasing distance.

 

I have a couple of questions: Do you keep track of your stats? Do you have quality practice?

 

It sounds to me like you're a very good ball-striker. Keeping stats should allow you to identify true weaknesses (as opposed to perceived weaknesses, which may not be the same). Quality practice (as opposed to quantity practice) will give you the fastest and most lasting improvements.

 

Last year, after playing very little after moving to MS, I was shooting in the mid 80s (low 90s if I had a couple of blow-up holes). I'd been as low as .8 in Tucson the year before, but just lost my game after no practicing or playing for about 4 or 5 months. I had no idea what was wrong. I saw that our base championship was coming up in two months and wanted to play...and wanted to win.

 

I started beating balls and doing some chipping and putting but like so many others, the improvements I saw on in the practice area didn't seem to translate to the course very well. One day at the range a guy told me to check out Every Shot Must Have A Purpose by Pia Nilsson and Lynn Marriott. I went and got it at B&N, read it over the next day and a half, and immediately went to work using its suggestions. The next round I played was 77. The next after that was 75. I continued to work, using the book's ideas, on the range and around the short game area. When the tournament came around I felt ready--more ready than I'd ever been for a tournament. The first day I shot 71 (-1) and was one shot back of the lead (as I recall). The second day I shot 76 and the leader shot 72 to beat me by 5 shots. The guy in 3rd was 5 shots further back.

 

I was marginally disappointed with finishing 2nd but it was a testament to that book that I shot two of my best rounds in a long time and did so under the heat. The second day I actually missed a SIX INCH putt. I was trying to avoid stepping on two lines, was yapping, and was momentarily distracted by a ragged ball mark in front of the hole. I twitched and it hit the edge of the hole and horseshoed out. A couple months earlier I'd have been LIVID. It would have completely ruined me for at least a few more holes. Being infused with the thoughts from ESMHAP though, it didn't affect me AT ALL. I shrugged, laughed, tapped it in, and birdied the next hole. After that it seems I couldn't get a putt to drop, with four ugly lipouts. Still, I kept my calm and focus the whole time.

 

I took some video not long after that and man, my swing was kind of ugly. But my uglyish swing was working pretty well. Anyway, I highly recommend that book. Especially if you're already striking it solidly and not working too hard on major swing changes. I cannot imagine how anyone could implement that practice strategy and NOT improve.

 

You're already sitting at +1 so you're doing awesome. Perhaps you are already doing these, but I thought I'd put it out there for you. ;)

 

Best wishes!

 

KP