Laying off the club ...

[golfbulldog]

Tom Bertrand talks about this in one of his youtube videos and his book... He makes a big deal out of it as the way in which he gets rid of the "cupping"....The left wrist looks fairly flat here before and after the move.

 

 

This is a fairly pronounced example of Hogan doing it... there is no other swing from this day that shows such a pronounced move as this one (at least not from the youtube collections I have seen).

 

Do any other golfers make a move like this currently ? Sergio - or is his slightly differerent...?

 

Does it change the plane line orientation? Moves his plane line to the left of target? So swinging left is actually just on-plane...but with an adjusted plane line?

 

Thoughts and comments please - debate ...lets use the PM system for marketing 'the Hogan "laying off-o- matic" swing fix device'...marshalls never need to know

 

This forum feels like home now...or a reservation....but thanks for the protected enclave.

[golfpunk]

Where else is the club supposed to go if you make a proper transition? Natural forces flatten the club shaft giving it a laid off look.

[Dariusz J.]

Tom Bertrand talks about this in one of his youtube videos and his book... He makes a big deal out of it as the way in which he gets rid of the "cupping"....The left wrist looks fairly flat here before and after the move.

 

 

This is a fairly pronounced example of Hogan doing it... there is no other swing from this day that shows such a pronounced move as this one (at least not from the youtube collections I have seen).

 

Do any other golfers make a move like this currently ? Sergio - or is his slightly differerent...?

 

Does it change the plane line orientation? Moves his plane line to the left of target? So swinging left is actually just on-plane...but with an adjusted plane line?

 

Thoughts and comments please - debate ...lets use the PM system for marketing 'the Hogan "laying off-o- matic" swing fix device'...marshalls never need to know

 

This forum feels like home now...or a reservation....but thanks for the protected enclave.

 

 

GB, both cupping and de-cupping are automatic processes that accompany low plane rotary swings with forearm pronation. Mr.Bertrand thinks that those motions are deliberate, which is wrong.

Moreover, releasing the cup in the lead wrist has nothing to do with change of the plane angle between the backswing and the downswing ones and happens later that you suspect from your vid. It is helpful to observe not only DTL but also FO vids and pics:

 

 

 

 

 

As you see, the cup is still maintained although he is already in the middle of the downswing (i.e. long after the plane angle change).

 

The very Mr.Hogan in his '5 Lessons' says that "the golfer gets on this second plane - without thinking he is changing planes - when he turns his hips back to the left at the start of the downswing".

IMO, he meant the CoG shift to the South-West before transition that must cause both a squat as well as change the plane orientation. The reason you do not see it now with today's pros is that Hogan's lateral shift was simply too huge because of all the damage in his bones the accident had caused. The smaller is the lateral motion, the smaller is the plane angle change. Of course, changing the plane angle to a flatter one helps to release the cup in a proper way, but the origin of those two processes are independent on each other, IMO.

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

Tom Bertrand talks about this in one of his youtube videos and his book... He makes a big deal out of it as the way in which he gets rid of the "cupping"....The left wrist looks fairly flat here before and after the move.

 

 

This is a fairly pronounced example of Hogan doing it... there is no other swing from this day that shows such a pronounced move as this one (at least not from the youtube collections I have seen).

 

Do any other golfers make a move like this currently ? Sergio - or is his slightly differerent...?

 

Does it change the plane line orientation? Moves his plane line to the left of target? So swinging left is actually just on-plane...but with an adjusted plane line?

 

Thoughts and comments please - debate ...lets use the PM system for marketing 'the Hogan "laying off-o- matic" swing fix device'...marshalls never need to know

 

This forum feels like home now...or a reservation....but thanks for the protected enclave.

 

 

Yes an athletic move GB.. very evident from certain camera angles and the harder he went at it ...next frame or so and the shaft steepens tracing a straightish line from there

Agree with dariusz that the hand deal seems wishful thinking...some more pics

[golfbulldog]

Thanks guys for your comments and pics.

 

Darius, you were discussing plane angle...I was discussing plane line.... Does anyone know what shape of shot he played on this hole?

 

I agree that it is not a conscious hand/wrist motion. Whilst the right wrist bend appears to increase the left writs does not arch...it is a movement of the whole of the left arm and shaft IMO... secondary to pivot and a special move ... but that is my secret...;)

[martinez]

From eightirons response and my own feelings on this aspect I think the club is flattened by the transition move left then steepened again by the right shoulder/ right side swinging toward the ball (what is that called again eight? Shoulder turn throw?). A death move for anyone that stays on their right side....but a desirable one for Mr. Hogan getting the clubshaft on a flatter plane than the original shaft plane in transition. The deeper the pivot the more likely to see this move....which is why it's not really evident in video of Mr. Hogan at the Coleman beach house.

 

The fact that this is more evident in some swings of his than others should remind us that he was always hitting shots (not making swings) in the footage we have...and that no one swing will ever give us the complete picture. Maybe he was hitting a draw with this Drive, it certainly looks less like a fade than some of his other tee shots that day.

[Dariusz J.]

Does anyone know what shape of shot he played on this hole?

 

It's the #3 520 yd par 5 dogleg to the right from the Shell Match against Snead. This was the hole that the play was suspended due to the coming storm after both players teed off.

Hogan played his controlled fade drive that ended just behind the fairway bunker (of course he was on the fairway), then he played #4 wood ca. 25ft to the hole and missed his eagle putt.

 

Hope that helps, cheers.

[BlindDust]

The reason you do not see it now with today's pros is that Hogan's lateral shift was simply too huge because of all the damage in his bones the accident had caused. The smaller is the lateral motion, the smaller is the plane angle change. Of course, changing the plane angle to a flatter one helps to release the cup in a proper way, but the origin of those two processes are independent on each other, IMO.

 

I think that Ben had the same big lateral motion already before the accident. That is why i think it has nothing to do with his physical capability. It`s just the way he wanted to move. Good example is Hogan`s swing (1946) from "the golf swing" by Jim McLean.

 

I hope you understood something, my english isn`t very good.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Laying off and shallowing the plane are two distinct events.

 

Hogan layed off the club as an anti hook mechanism. This was a conscious effort (of course made automatic). He told Schlee sic "You can't hook it if the club is layed off...." or something to that effect. I have posted the exact quote somewhere else......don't have it here.

 

The shallow plane was a function of getting to his elbow plane quickly. I believe Lake at one point stated a double shift....Slice mentions Hogan's hands dropped straight down quickly...........Hebron talks about gravity dropping the hands down prior to rotation "rotation get's in the way of linear motion" (Magnum has described this as the "the pivot catching the arms") The bottom line is all these latter thoughts go more in line with what Schlee says Hogan did at transition, not Bertram. The pivot (and/or gravity) is responsible to drop the elbow/hands.

 

The left wrist de-cups sometime between transition and the delivery parallel, at which point in the overhead views one can see the right wrist is cupped and the left wrist is flat.

 

This is key as the proper golf swing has a flat left wrist with a lagging clubhead (all the pressure points are ahead of the clubhead).

[golfbulldog]

Where else is the club supposed to go if you make a proper transition? Natural forces flatten the club shaft giving it a laid off look.

You don't see this as an exaggerated motion - even for Hogan?

 

I have looked at all the other swings on this film and he does not do it as pronounced as this on any of the others as far as I can see...that's why I was interested in the hole, shape of shot.

 

I agree that many flatten their plane angle - and yet they do not look like this...

 

I am not saying I have any answers...just interested in seeing what comes out from debate.

 

Maybe you can find some other examples for comparison.

 

thanks.

[Dariusz J.]

I think that Ben had the same big lateral motion already before the accident. That is why i think it has nothing to do with his physical capability. It`s just the way he wanted to move. Good example is Hogan`s swing (1946) from "the golf swing" by Jim McLean.

 

I hope you understood something, my english isn`t very good.

 

Your English is better than mine, so do not worry :)

 

Well, what I have observed is that the lateral CoG shift:

- before secret (up to 1946) was smaller, not entirely completed before downswing began and directed more to West than to South-West;

- post secret but before accident (1947 - 49) was smaller, entirely completed before downswing began and directed to the South-West;

- post accident (1951 +) was bigger, entirely completed before downswing began and directed to the South-West.

I believe the shift was too big for his taste due to the damaged pelvis - that's why his "cripple" comments.

 

Cheers

[golfbulldog]

Does anyone know what shape of shot he played on this hole?

 

It's the #3 520 yd par 5 dogleg to the right from the Shell Match against Snead. This was the hole that the play was suspended due to the coming storm after both players teed off.

Hogan played his controlled fade drive that ended just behind the fairway bunker (of course he was on the fairway), then he played #4 wood ca. 25ft to the hole and missed his eagle putt.

 

Hope that helps, cheers.

Thanks Darius, encyclopaedic as usual!

[Dariusz J.]

Does anyone know what shape of shot he played on this hole?

 

It's the #3 520 yd par 5 dogleg to the right from the Shell Match against Snead. This was the hole that the play was suspended due to the coming storm after both players teed off.

Hogan played his controlled fade drive that ended just behind the fairway bunker (of course he was on the fairway), then he played #4 wood ca. 25ft to the hole and missed his eagle putt.

 

Hope that helps, cheers.

Thanks Darius, encyclopaedic as usual!

 

GB, you're welcome, mate. In fact, I was (and still I am since it is a great hour of highest level golfing) lucky to have the DVD with the match :)

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

Where else is the club supposed to go if you make a proper transition? Natural forces flatten the club shaft giving it a laid off look.

You don't see this as an exaggerated motion - even for Hogan?

 

I have looked at all the other swings on this film and he does not do it as pronounced as this on any of the others as far as I can see...that's why I was interested in the hole, shape of shot.

 

I agree that many flatten their plane angle - and yet they do not look like this...

 

I am not saying I have any answers...just interested in seeing what comes out from debate.

 

Maybe you can find some other examples for comparison.

 

thanks.

 

I don't agree with your interpretation of this being a special swing move on this particular piece of footage

Camera angles/distortion etc play a huge role in this

[Schleeman]

Gentlemen, What is the debate on Mr.Hogan cupping and uncupping his left wrist? You can find video and pictures of him doing both. What Mr. Hogan told John Schlee was to LET the left wrist uncup from the top of the backswing. The fact that he held onto the cup longer was his ability to delay the action with his strength. Most of us are not as strong as Mr.Hogan so we can not wait. I give the average golfer the chance to get to the impact area like Mr. Hogan.

[asprin02]

Gentlemen, What is the debate on Mr.Hogan cupping and uncupping his left wrist? You can find video and pictures of him doing both. What Mr. Hogan told John Schlee was to LET the left wrist uncup from the top of the backswing. The fact that he held onto the cup longer was his ability to delay the action with his strength. Most of us are not as strong as Mr.Hogan so we can not wait. I give the average golfer the chance to get to the impact area like Mr. Hogan.

 

Let the left wrist uncup? Or consciously force it to uncup with active hand or arm action?

 

Which one of these questions lines up with what you are saying better?

[martinez]

does not really seem like any of you know what your talking about. just an observation...

 

Oh wise and gracious one.........thank you, thank you for sharing your observation with us.

[ej002]

does not really seem like any of you know what your talking about. just an observation...

 

 

Yeah, I really hope you are joking.... because I dont think you have any idea who you are talking too.

[HoganAfficianado]

What is the point of posting such a rediculous comment like that. Do you have nothing better to do than critisize others opinions? How about you chime in and tell us the answer.

[QuigleyDU]

if i know the answer i would share it but i dont. but i would not willy nilly grasp at straws as it appears that many here are doing. what i think is that it is not important has to how or when his cup'd wrist becomes flat. just that it did most likely automatically with out effort on his part to make it happen.

[asprin02]

if i know the answer i would share it but i dont. but i would not willy nilly grasp at straws as it appears that many here are doing. what i think is that it is not important has to how or when his cup'd wrist becomes flat. just that it did most likely automatically with out effort on his part to make it happen.

 

much better post this time...

[eightiron]

if i know the answer i would share it but i dont. but i would not willy nilly grasp at straws as it appears that many here are doing. what i think is that it is not important has to how or when his cup'd wrist becomes flat. just that it did most likely automatically with out effort on his part to make it happen.

 

True since camera angles/ type of shot executed / how hard Hogan went at it etc would have to be important.

Hogan had tremendous inertia exerted on his arms ( from body motion/pivot) which would lay the shaft off and flatten the wrist to a degree and any extra hand manipulation that Schleeman is advocating would surely lay the shaft off way too much..but he did say "Let"..the cup on the left wrist would also seem to be a safeguard against laying the shaft off too much

For John Schlee who was way more "upright" ..different story..

[magnum184]

 

 

 

 

Of course, this is after Hogan's transition/laying off/whatever you want to call it, but this is his club shallowed out. You don't see many shallowing it out like this anymore. And I'll say something else........................for the people that do or did shallow it out like this..............................you had better have one HELL of a pivot coming!!!!! Be careful or you'll miss the ball. LOL. :lol: The club is pointing a foot or two over the ball !!!!!!!!! But, it will yield some incredible dynamics shortly.

 

Hogan may have done it the best, but I don't believe the transition that got him in these pictures hasn't been done by a number of well known popular ballstrikers throughout history. Yes or no?

[Siteseer2]

 

 

 

Of course, this is after Hogan's transition/laying off/whatever you want to call it, but this is his club shallowed out. You don't see many shallowing it out like this anymore. And I'll say something else........................for the people that do or did shallow it out like this..............................you had better have one HELL of a pivot coming!!!!! Be careful or you'll miss the ball. LOL. :lol: The club is pointing a foot or two over the ball !!!!!!!!! But, it will yield some incredible dynamics shortly.

 

Hogan may have done it the best, but I don't believe the transition that got him in these pictures hasn't been done by a number of well known popular ballstrikers throughout history. Yes or no?

Pic top left shows the gold standard: shaft perfectly on the right arm plane. Others have done it (maybe not as consistently as Hogan, but the hallmark of a great striker in part is to have the shaft on the right arm plane on the thru swing). Bottom pic looks pre-secret where the elbow was more "in front" of the right hip, and the shaft was behind.... need more "hand action" to get the club squared from that "stuck" or deep position.... Comparing the two pics I've referenced, show how Hogan got more "on top" of the ball (plane line in TGM speak?) post-secret... or thats how I see it any how, FWIW....

[golfbulldog]

 

 

 

Of course, this is after Hogan's transition/laying off/whatever you want to call it, but this is his club shallowed out. You don't see many shallowing it out like this anymore. And I'll say something else........................for the people that do or did shallow it out like this..............................you had better have one HELL of a pivot coming!!!!! Be careful or you'll miss the ball. LOL. :lol: The club is pointing a foot or two over the ball !!!!!!!!! But, it will yield some incredible dynamics shortly.

 

Hogan may have done it the best, but I don't believe the transition that got him in these pictures hasn't been done by a number of well known popular ballstrikers throughout history. Yes or no?

Pic top left shows the gold standard: shaft perfectly on the right arm plane. Others have done it (maybe not as consistently as Hogan, but the hallmark of a great striker in part is to have the shaft on the right arm plane on the thru swing). Bottom pic looks pre-secret where the elbow was more "in front" of the right hip, and the shaft was behind.... need more "hand action" to get the club squared from that "stuck" or deep position.... Comparing the two pics I've referenced, show how Hogan got more "on top" of the ball (plane line in TGM speak?) post-secret... or thats how I see it any how, FWIW....

 

Determining whether photos are pre or post secret is very very very speculative...

 

It assumes that you know "the secret" or you have got to specify which secret you are referring to... then you interpret a photo based on whether that image shows what you consider to be the secret... these interpretations tend to support what those writers either teach or have been most recently taught by their instructors...not the most independent reading of the images or the facts as Hogan revealed them.

 

Lets try and date images based on fact or reasoning rather than merely interpreting, in a highly subjective manner, the swing components and then trying to backdate it.

 

The "secret" should be specifically restricted to the changes which Hogan described finding in 1946...later described by him in Life Magazine (?1955).

 

Any other swing modification should be described as just that....not a secret.

 

Do you think that the Black and white image is Pre secret 1946?? I have a few problems with that ... based on reasoning...

 

I just don't see anyone doing that kind of swing footage on Hogan pre 1946 (probably April 1946 when he went home and thought out his secret)...why bother..he was not that great at the time....very good post war player....but not the kind of guy who had proved himself in Major competition ...unlike Snead and Nelson who you might get the fancy slow mo, funny angle film footage out for. If that footage can be dated, I would guess that it is related to the footage that Hogan and Snead did in front of the black and white gridlines which I have seen described as "post secret / 5 lessons era" (I think that is what I read somewhere).

 

The colour images are from much later in life (World of golf 1963/4??) when he was not only older but also further physically limited due to his post-accident problems which would more than likely be affected even further by age.... and his right elbow could never get anywhere near the pitch position he achieved in his younger days.

[magnum184]

 

 

 

 

Pic top left shows the gold standard: shaft perfectly on the right arm plane. Others have done it (maybe not as consistently as Hogan, but the hallmark of a great striker in part is to have the shaft on the right arm plane on the thru swing). Bottom pic looks pre-secret where the elbow was more "in front" of the right hip, and the shaft was behind.... need more "hand action" to get the club squared from that "stuck" or deep position.... Comparing the two pics I've referenced, show how Hogan got more "on top" of the ball (plane line in TGM speak?) post-secret... or thats how I see it any how, FWIW....

 

I could give a ton of examples showing many players with the shaft covering the right forearm, but not having the club or arms near the same position as Hogan does here. In other words, clubshaft not pointing over the ball. They would all need different angles to do anything consistent with the ball. If Hogan's position of the arms and club you see here were to be a little deeper at those points (less forward and more covering his body from this dtl view), do you think the club would have shallowed out as much/ be pointing over the ball? Nope. Then, maybe he would get into a position where he couldn't move the club to the ball via his pivot (aka STUCK). But, he's not deep at that point, in either pic. Neither are before '48. In fact, I would say the way Hogan does shallow out the club helps him maintain more pitch in the right elbow nearing delivery. But, you had better have a BA pivot coming if you do something like this, because anything else is POT LOCK as far getting the club to the ball. Hogan had a BA pivot.

[Dariusz J.]

Pic top left shows the gold standard: shaft perfectly on the right arm plane. Others have done it (maybe not as consistently as Hogan, but the hallmark of a great striker in part is to have the shaft on the right arm plane on the thru swing). Bottom pic looks pre-secret where the elbow was more "in front" of the right hip, and the shaft was behind.... need more "hand action" to get the club squared from that "stuck" or deep position.... Comparing the two pics I've referenced, show how Hogan got more "on top" of the ball (plane line in TGM speak?) post-secret... or thats how I see it any how, FWIW....

 

Both are post-secret Hogan, only the camera angle is different that's why the illusion of different elbow planes. Hogan's pic comes from a rare film Lake was so kind to put on YouTube (pay attn. to 3:45 min.):

 

 

Looks for mid- or late 50-ies to me - Hogan is almost bald, Snead is not so slim...besides the FO vid shows evidently that it was a post-secret action.

 

Cheers

[Swoosh-Thud]

 

 

 

Of course, this is after Hogan's transition/laying off/whatever you want to call it, but this is his club shallowed out. You don't see many shallowing it out like this anymore. And I'll say something else........................for the people that do or did shallow it out like this..............................you had better have one HELL of a pivot coming!!!!! Be careful or you'll miss the ball. LOL. :lol: The club is pointing a foot or two over the ball !!!!!!!!! But, it will yield some incredible dynamics shortly.

 

Hogan may have done it the best, but I don't believe the transition that got him in these pictures hasn't been done by a number of well known popular ballstrikers throughout history. Yes or no?

 

Or how about Furyk..................transition shallows out a bit, eh......but just as important is that Furyk rotates left like a SOB...he has too as he stands so close to the ball......similar principle my friend.

[ballshagger]

Tom Bertrand talks about this in one of his youtube videos and his book... He makes a big deal out of it as the way in which he gets rid of the "cupping"....The left wrist looks fairly flat here before and after the move.

 

 

This is a fairly pronounced example of Hogan doing it... there is no other swing from this day that shows such a pronounced move as this one (at least not from the youtube collections I have seen).

 

Do any other golfers make a move like this currently ? Sergio - or is his slightly differerent...?

 

Does it change the plane line orientation? Moves his plane line to the left of target? So swinging left is actually just on-plane...but with an adjusted plane line?

 

Thoughts and comments please - debate ...lets use the PM system for marketing 'the Hogan "laying off-o- matic" swing fix device'...marshalls never need to know

 

This forum feels like home now...or a reservation....but thanks for the protected enclave.

 

 

GB, both cupping and de-cupping are automatic processes that accompany low plane rotary swings with forearm pronation. Mr.Bertrand thinks that those motions are deliberate, which is wrong.

Moreover, releasing the cup in the lead wrist has nothing to do with change of the plane angle between the backswing and the downswing ones and happens later that you suspect from your vid. It is helpful to observe not only DTL but also FO vids and pics:

 

 

 

 

 

As you see, the cup is still maintained although he is already in the middle of the downswing (i.e. long after the plane angle change).

 

The very Mr.Hogan in his '5 Lessons' says that "the golfer gets on this second plane - without thinking he is changing planes - when he turns his hips back to the left at the start of the downswing".

IMO, he meant the CoG shift to the South-West before transition that must cause both a squat as well as change the plane orientation. The reason you do not see it now with today's pros is that Hogan's lateral shift was simply too huge because of all the damage in his bones the accident had caused. The smaller is the lateral motion, the smaller is the plane angle change. Of course, changing the plane angle to a flatter one helps to release the cup in a proper way, but the origin of those two processes are independent on each other, IMO.

 

Cheers

 

 

Those are some of the best pics I've seen of Hogan's swing.

[HoganAfficianado]

These are probably the clearest pics of Hogans clubface you will find. You can really see how open the face is at the top and coming down it looks like it opens up even more. That might be an illusion because he was more laid off.