What I see thats Different

[jp12g]

Alternative view on Hogan's secret.

Hi guys

I have the Behind the Ropes VHS, Hogan's 5 lessons and have seen many an analysis of his swing, including varied explanations of the "secret" on U Tube.

There is a U Tube video of Hogan in his sixties hitting golf balls at George Coleman's house in Florida? into the ocean. This shows his grip, has Hogan making comments and hitting full shots. But interestingly, it has Hogan demonstrating his swing in exagerated slow motion. Ie he slows his own swing down to show that family what he was doing in the swing.

From this I suggest that.

Those who say that Hogan began his supination move at the top of the backswing may well be mistaken. It appears to happen as a natural and automatic consequence of three other things Hogan does in his swing.

#1 In the backswing, he doesnt restrict his hip turn at all as suggested by Jim McLean. If you watch his swings closely, you will see the arms take the club away leaving the hips behind, giving the appearance that Hogan is trying to wind up against his hips, but critically, when the arms/ upper torso cant move further against the resistance of his hips, he allows his hips to turn a little at the end of the backswing. What does this achieve? It prevents his left arm from bending and/or his arms from lifting up his chest and changing plane! IE it keeps his hands low.

#2 Hogan did let his left wrist bend back on itself a long way and so got a very acute angle between shaft and upper arm. It can clearly be seen that this acute angle is held for longer in the downswing than was/is usual for other players. I suggest that he could not have held that position of the wrists and that shaft angle to the left forearm for so long if his transitional move at the top included supination of the left wrist at that point! You try to do it and keep a huge wrist **** at the same time!! Bet you can't! Supination or a flat left wrist prevents anything less than a 90 degree angle between the left arm and shaft. {Look at any golfer who plays square to square or keeps the wrist flat through the backswing. None of them have acute cocking angles. Then look at John Daly and his wrist at the top of the swing. }

What Hogan appears to have done was leave the wrist cupped for as long as the centrapetal forces on the clubhead allowed that. [Centrafugal force is an urban myth!] He also appears to come into the ball until the very last moment with his left wrist pointing more upward than turned down towards the ball, again until that last split second when it magically supinates or at least flattens, turns down to square up and the wrist **** disappears.

# 3 If you think about #2 above you immediately think "how then did he both supinate and square the clubface in just a split second before contact, with such an exagerated wrist **** and with the clubface effectively so open". It appears to me, from observing the footage, that what Hogan did was to restrict his right shoulder from turning any further around toward the ball, than his address position for that shoulder, until after the ball was hit. In the down swing you see his arms move down and his right shoulder turn back to square quite early, but then its almost static while the arms descend. It tilts a bit, but doesnt come out towards the ball. Just before his hands reach a position above the ball, because his hands have been moving very quickly away from his right shoulder, they reach a point where they can go no further without the right arm being under tremendous force to straighten. So it does, but then quickly runs out of room to straighten, the forces are immediately transferred to the shaft and clubhead through his hands. The result is that Hogan gets the clubface square and the shaft extended just before the ball is reached not though conscious manipulation, simply from the tremendous straightening forces applied to his hands by the DYMAMIC weight of the clubhead at that point. This is the underarm "flicking" motion that characterises his shots.

IMHO the reason he could do that is that he maintained a consistent low plane and hit out from a held back right shoulder, which allowed full release at the ball. Probably why his method cant be replicated by most others is because they either allow their arms to rise up at the top of the backswing, making an underarm/inside to square motion back to the ball far more difficult, OR they allow the upper body, particularly the right shoulder to turn through the shot before the ball is hit, which prevents that whip crack centrapetal force release Hogan was famous for.

One piece of evidence I would offer that tends to support this is that Hogan was recognised for having a perfect "inside to square to inside" path before/at/after contact. If you can hold your right shoulder from moving closer to the ball than the address position until the ball is hit, its impossible to get the club head outside the line of the shot at any point in the downswing or follow through!

Just MHO folks. Pick it to pieces, or try it out. Up to you. I'd recommend watching that Coleman video though.

Cheers :wave:

[Siteseer2]

...this should be interesting... btw, not sure that what Hogan FELT when doing his "slow motion/concentration drill" resembles what he did dynamically in his swing as the PIVOT was a large part of his dynamic, and its totally absent in the slow motion swing (his dynamic swing physics don't apply in an almost static swing )... but for a second post this will no doubt generate MUCH discussion....

I think you have it completely wrong, his shoulders rotatated a TON around his spine axis. To wit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7eIVD8OZAE...t=1&index=2

Not sure I see the left wrist "pointing upward" as you suggest:

http://www.julesalexander.com/hogan.html

[Dariusz J.]

Hi guys

 

I have the Behind the Ropes VHS, Hogan's 5 lessons and have seen many an analysis of his swing, including varied explanations of the "secret" on U Tube.

 

There is a U Tube video of Hogan in his sixties hitting golf balls at George Coleman's house in Florida? into the ocean. This shows his grip, has Hogan making comments and hitting full shots. But interestingly, it has Hogan demonstrating his swing in exagerated slow motion. Ie he slows his own swing down to show that family what he was doing in the swing.

 

From this I suggest that.

 

Those who say that Hogan began his supination move at the top of the backswing may well be mistaken. It appears to happen as a natural and automatic consequence of three other things Hogan does in his swing.

 

#1 In the backswing, he doesnt restrict his hip turn at all as suggested by Jim McLean. If you watch his swings closely, you will see the arms take the club away leaving the hips behind, giving the appearance that Hogan is trying to wind up against his hips, but critically, when the arms/ upper torso cant move further against the resistance of his hips, he allows his hips to turn a little at the end of the backswing. What does this achieve? It prevents his left arm from bending and/or his arms from lifting up his chest and changing plane! IE it keeps his hands low.

 

#2 Hogan did let his left wrist bend back on itself a long way and so got a very acute angle between shaft and upper arm. It can clearly be seen that this acute angle is held for longer in the downswing than was/is usual for other players. I suggest that he could not have held that position of the wrists and that shaft angle to the left forearm for so long if his transitional move at the top included supination of the left wrist at that point! You try to do it and keep a huge wrist **** at the same time!! Bet you can't! Supination or a flat left wrist prevents anything less than a 90 degree angle between the left arm and shaft. {Look at any golfer who plays square to square or keeps the wrist flat through the backswing. None of them have acute cocking angles. Then look at John Daly and his wrist at the top of the swing. }

 

What Hogan appears to have done was leave the wrist cupped for as long as the centrapetal forces on the clubhead allowed that. [Centrafugal force is an urban myth!] He also appears to come into the ball until the very last moment with his left wrist pointing more upward than turned down towards the ball, again until that last split second when it magically supinates or at least flattens, turns down to square up and the wrist **** disappears.

 

# 3 If you think about #2 above you immediately think "how then did he both supinate and square the clubface in just a split second before contact, with such an exagerated wrist **** and with the clubface effectively so open". It appears to me, from observing the footage, that what Hogan did was to restrict his right shoulder from turning any further around toward the ball, than his address position for that shoulder, until after the ball was hit. In the down swing you see his arms move down and his right shoulder turn back to square quite early, but then its almost static while the arms descend. It tilts a bit, but doesnt come out towards the ball. Just before his hands reach a position above the ball, because his hands have been moving very quickly away from his right shoulder, they reach a point where they can go no further without the right arm being under tremendous force to straighten. So it does, but then quickly runs out of room to straighten, the forces are immediately transferred to the shaft and clubhead through his hands. The result is that Hogan gets the clubface square and the shaft extended just before the ball is reached not though conscious manipulation, simply from the tremendous straightening forces applied to his hands by the DYMAMIC weight of the clubhead at that point. This is the underarm "flicking" motion that characterises his shots.

 

IMHO the reason he could do that is that he maintained a consistent low plane and hit out from a held back right shoulder, which allowed full release at the ball. Probably why his method cant be replicated by most others is because they either allow their arms to rise up at the top of the backswing, making an underarm/inside to square motion back to the ball far more difficult, OR they allow the upper body, particularly the right shoulder to turn through the shot before the ball is hit, which prevents that whip crack centrapetal force release Hogan was famous for.

 

One piece of evidence I would offer that tends to support this is that Hogan was recognised for having a perfect "inside to square to inside" path before/at/after contact. If you can hold your right shoulder from moving closer to the ball than the address position until the ball is hit, its impossible to get the club head outside the line of the shot at any point in the downswing or follow through!

 

Just MHO folks. Pick it to pieces, or try it out. Up to you. I'd recommend watching that Coleman video though.

 

Cheers :wave:

 

Interesting hypothesis. I have nothing against your points no.1 and no.2, the more they may be explained biomechanically the way Mr.Hogan achieved it unintentionally as a natural consequence of previous body actions. The point no.3, however, requires further researches since I cannot imagine that Hogan deliberately tried to hold his rear shoulder from natural tendency to rotate in the downswing. I cannot find any biomechanical reason for such an action for now - but it is worth researching for sure. Let me investigate the shoulder joint and scapula range of motions.

 

Cheers

[golfbulldog]

Your point 3 is something I considered last year when I did this video:

 

 

Obviously 2D analysis of 3D motion is tricky and open to error....but if you consider how much the right shoulder moves at the beginniing of the downswing...with similar amount of hand and clunhead motion (angular motion...rotary)...then plave your cursor on the right shoulder when the left arm starts to move down the chest...the right shoulder mover very little whilst the hands keep moving down and around...the clubhead even moreso...it must feel like a relative slowing of the right shoulder...put your cursor on the left shoulder...it seems to move more than right...maybe 2 D error here...but interesting thoughts.

 

Thanks. Will read your 1+2.

[StewartBannatyne]

Your point 3 is something I considered last year when I did this video:

 

 

Obviously 2D analysis of 3D motion is tricky and open to error....but if you consider how much the right shoulder moves at the beginniing of the downswing...with similar amount of hand and clunhead motion (angular motion...rotary)...then plave your cursor on the right shoulder when the left arm starts to move down the chest...the right shoulder mover very little whilst the hands keep moving down and around...the clubhead even moreso...it must feel like a relative slowing of the right shoulder...put your cursor on the left shoulder...it seems to move more than right...maybe 2 D error here...but interesting thoughts.

 

Thanks. Will read your 1+2.

 

I've never seen that video, but it is a very interesting one! Certainly an aspect I have never thought to look at before.

 

Here's what I think is happening (in a 3D space). It looks like the left shoulder is moving more than the right shoulder in those frames. But aside from Mr. Hogan having freakish flexibility (double-jointed shoulders? :) ), I dont believe that's possible. What I think is happening is you are looking at a 2 Dimensional representation of the proper movement of the right shoulder, and it's effect on the left shoulder.

 

Brian Manzella has always maintained that the right shoulder should move down, then out, then forward. When you look at the frames you've focused on, you see that. There is the quick movement of the right shoulder downward, but then it begins to move outward, and does not appear to move again until it starts to move forward. The left shoulder appears to be moving more, because it is getting further away from you. It is starting to move AROUND Mr. Hogan (assuming you were watching this in a correct view, not 2D). The left shoulder is up, in and then slightly back.

 

How does Mr. Hogan do this so effectively? Exactly how he describes it, and how Slice has figured it out. Mr. Hogan says you only need as much lateral motion as necessary to get to the left pivot point, and then he uses the core to rotate to the finish. Geoff's teaching allows you to make the transition (which moves the right shoulder down, and causes the lateral motion to the left pivot point), and from there you begin to use the core to rotate (moves the right shoulder outward), and then it is pulled (right shoulder forward) into the finish. There is no stalling or slinging of anything, merely the most efficient and correct motion the body can make for the simplest and most repeatable golf swing.

 

This stuff is what makes Geoff's teachings so brilliant. There is no major transition or forced lateral motion, the setup position that he advocates causes the body to create tensions where tension should be created to allow the body to unwind in this order. If you were in Texarkana, and had Geoff put you into the top of the backswing position he likes to see, you wouldn't believe the massive amounts of tension that are created in the body. But when you begin to unwind them, these things all happen correctly. Mr. Hogan's slight lateral shift left in the backswing is the key to his creating these tensions, and he unwinds from there. Geoff has just made it simpler.

 

Excellent video, and hopefully I can add something to this discussion!

 

Stew

 

Stew

[Siteseer2]

What seems somewhat under-discussed is Hogan's comments about keeping his left arm pinned to his chest longer... made the comment to Jackie Burke... and was NOT in the Life Article or 5 Modern Fundamentals...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7eIVD8OZAE...t=1&index=2

 

Coupled with his strong Pivot, this allowed him to release left, and fully release his lag.

 

In his earlier swing he was a more DTL slinger, and had more shoulder tilt which caused him to be under the shot more, and release more down the line.

 

http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/Ben_Hoga...12-0100-LE.html

 

Laying his left arm across his chest longer, and pivoting left with a low left release is significantly different move than in his early days.

[golfbulldog]

What seems somewhat under-discussed is Hogan's comments about keeping his left arm pinned to his chest longer... made the comment to Jackie Burke... and was NOT in the Life Article or 5 Modern Fundamentals...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7eIVD8OZAE...t=1&index=2

 

Coupled with his strong Pivot, this allowed him to release left, and fully release his lag.

 

In his earlier swing he was a more DTL slinger, and had more shoulder tilt which caused him to be under the shot more, and release more down the line.

 

http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/Ben_Hoga...12-0100-LE.html

 

Laying his left arm across his chest longer, and pivoting left with a low left release is significantly different move than in his early days.

 

Is the earlier Augusta footage really that of a DTL slinger?

 

How active was his connection to the chest? Before and after secret and wreck he appears to have some disconnection prior to impact...yet we know he looks connected at impact....this must be effect of something elso IMO rather than due to a primary conscious connection concern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loJJ0qmDQxY...re=channel_page

 

Did it occur due to other activity?

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Stewart. I will take some time to read and think - in general I agree with your 3D versus 2 D description.

[jp12g]

There is video on U Tube where Hogan is describing his downswing move. He emphasises strongly that the lower body turns back, but the shoulders DONT. Another way of saying the same thing would be "dont let the shoulders turn through in the downswing". I have often seen people say that Hogan only described what he thought he was doing, not what he actually did. I think thats a lot of Hot C..k! A man that intelligent who made studying the golf swing his life's work, knew EXACTLY what he was doing. I have his biography and in that somewhere is a quote wnere he was asked whether, with modern stop frame photography and high speed video analysis, he would qualify or change anything in 5 Lessons. His answer was that there was no need to change anything!

 

If the shoulders are held back from turning but the hips are allowed to move laterally while the head is kept in the same position, you have to get a greater tilt of the spine to the right [from the hips to the neck] than the spine had at the top of the backswing. This can clearly be seen in Hogan's swing. When that happens the arms will appear to drop slightly and the right shoulder will drop slightly, but only as a consequence of the lateral hip movement.

 

Look at most good players from behind in stop frame or slow motion and you will see similar right shoulder movements, or rather restriction of right shoulder movement before contact. Look at Greg Norman, still a relatively upright swinger and Tiger Woods. If you look at what they do to keep the right shoulder back, as far away from the line of the shot in the downswing as it was at address, it looks so cramped and even painful, their bodies are contorted so much trying to maintain that position. The right shoulder is allowed to move out directly after impact, giving the impression of a fluid turning of the shoulders, but its not, its an INTERRUPTED turning of the right shoulder.

 

Thats what allows good players to release properly. The hip movements happen partially as a result of the arms releasing the torsion created at the top of their swings. Its the upper arms that produce both the path and major power in the hit. At the point of impact the hands are relative passengers, their main role is to guide the clubhead passively to replicate the clubhead's address position when the forces acting through the arms extend fully to the hands and then clubhead.

[Siteseer2]

Good points GolfBd... my post was more soliciting comment... any thoughts are appreciated...

 

Came across this from Slice's Encyclopedia:

 

"Hogan’s Secret. Hogan DID have a secret that he took to his grave: the connection of the upper arms through impact, specifially the upper left arm. As the core unwinds around the left pivot point, the arms are pulled tight to the chest, which forces the butt of the shaft to the left thereby squaring the face. To quote Burke, “He always told me, you don't keep this arm (meaning left arm) on your chest long enough in the swing. You gotta' keep it tight to the chest and take it AROUND (unwinding) with your hips and shoulders (core).” He never mentions this in any of the legitimate Hogan sources".

 

Any other of Slice's thoughts on the subject floating around....

[Siteseer2]

Found Slice's comment on NOT dropping the right shoulder as a conscious swing thought or move:

 

"A down and under right side, which happens in the transition, is NOT NECESSARY if the player has PIVOTED correctly and has their arms and shaft in a reasonable position relative to the pivot, torso, and core and the clubface is square to SLIGHTLY open. Dropping the right shoulder is a compensation for one or all of the following problems: shut clubface, steep arms and shaft, and right pivot point too far from the left at the top".

[ej002]

I could be 100% wrong (wouldnt be the first time), but I just dont see the right shoulder not rotating. The legs obvioulsy and lower abdomen lead the pivot, but the shoulders must follow... the connection of the left armpit is what allows the hands and arms to stay in front of the body. Think of a bicycle tire... the inside moves only so far, but the outside is moving a lot faster.

 

What you describe is that the shoulder is restricted, that would be a stall and the arms would fly out and turn over. That is not what is happening the shoulders are moving but just not as fast as the arms, but they never slow down and they are not restricted. Those shoulders are moving full bore as fast as they can the arms are just flying out and as hard as possible... accerating.

 

I dont have proof, but the best thing i can say is if his shoulders were restricted, he would be slinging down the line, as we know Hogan swung as far left as anyone in history.

 

JMO and it counts for nothing...

[mikec222]

The holding the shoulder back bit is interesting. In a GD article in 06 with jack nickalaus on the cover jack mentions trying to keep your shoulder from moving. Of course it's impossible its more a feeling then anything. I tried it and I have never hit the driver better. Really lets your arms release. Unfortunately I couldn't make it work so well with the irons

[golfpunk]

I do like the thread starter's explanation and I think his comments are on the money although for his #3 point I am of the opinion that the club squares from such a deep and open position so late in downswing by a conscious firing of the hands rather than a passive involuntary release. But that's just my opinion.

[jp12g]

PS There is one other observation I could make about Hogan, that may be overlooked in all this "positional analysis" of Hogan's swing.

 

He had a fast, visually "underarm" swing, but the tempo is very clearly slow at the start of the drawback with accelerating tempo right through the hit. There is no pause or even constant speed anywhere in his swing. He swings on a firm base and continues to accelerate the club constantly from start to finish, even in the transition at the top..

 

This sort of tempo assisted him to develop a big wrist **** and to throw his arms out at the ball successfully in the hitting area. IMHO.

[Dariusz J.]

PS There is one other observation I could make about Hogan, that may be overlooked in all this "positional analysis" of Hogan's swing.

 

He had a fast, visually "underarm" swing, but the tempo is very clearly slow at the start of the drawback with accelerating tempo right through the hit. There is no pause or even constant speed anywhere in his swing. He swings on a firm base and continues to accelerate the club constantly from start to finish, even in the transition at the top..

 

This sort of tempo assisted him to develop a big wrist **** and to throw his arms out at the ball successfully in the hitting area. IMHO.

 

Good observation. Hogan with a slowish tempo would not be Hogan. I generally claim that rotary swingers should rather opt for a faster tempo, the more the pivot is the most important component there.

 

Cheers

[tm22721]

Hogan had an upright posture and kept the club close to his body through most of the downswing, not just through release. I believe that is how he preserved so much lag so late into the downswing. When I try this move I get much better ball contact and my Sonic radar shows higher clubhead speed. Downside is that video shows club is delofted more at impact so you may have to go one club lower than usual.

[dream_stryker]

There is video on U Tube where Hogan is describing his downswing move. He emphasises strongly that the lower body turns back, but the shoulders DONT.

 

 

Sir,

 

Do you have a link to this video? I was working on this feeling (the shoulders still do move...just not as fast as the arms) and I was told that if I had to do this to strike the ball good (and I was striking it good while I was working on this) then it was a compensation for a bad pivot on the backswing. Just so happened I read this post a couple of days ago and yesterday I got to be the standard bearer for JB Holmes, Brandt Snedeker, and Ryan Palmer at the Transitions tourney here in Tampa. I could clearly see in there pre-swing rehearsals and in the live swings that the right shoulders move into a hitting position that is near the address position. The ball is this struck and the right shoulder comes around and through. It almost looked as if the right lower arm did a 'uppercut' THEN the right shoulder left its hitting postion to come around. Of course Im going to work on this and see if I have any results but it would be nice to hear the Maestro say it so I know to keep working on if my results are shaky in the beginning. Also, anyone can feel free to comment on my observation about the right shoulder function from transition to impact. Cheers ;)

[jp12g]

I cant find that video now after a quick look, but its there somewhere. Here is one that shows his position at impact quite well. If you freeze the video at EXACTLY 1 14 on the timer you will see that his right shoulder has been allowed to return to the address position, but as soon as it reaches that position it is held back for a fraction of a second until the hit. It never moves out further towards the ball until the hit. It may move vertically a fraction only.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_FE0MYhI-Q

 

If you dont return the right shoulder to its position at address in terms of its distance from the line of ball to target, then you cant reach the ball properly at impact. If you overdo the rotation and get the right shoulder closer to the ball than at address at impact, you have to make too many compensations and its likely you wont get that Hogan whipcrack release.

 

I agree that the IMPRESSION of these swings is one of fairly constant rotation, but I still detect a braking /stopping effort of the right shoulder as it reaches the ideal hitting position quite early in the downswing.

 

I also agree that correct impact with this Hogan move will deloft the club, but thats a pro move. Thats why a guy like Jesper Parnevick with an upright pull swing and more loft than standard in his wedges can hit a sandwedge normally about 120-130 yards. Because he makes a 56 into a 52!

[magnum184]

How did he brake the right shoulder?

 

Was the braking for delivering the club?

 

When did he start braking and how long did it brake?

 

How does it start accelerating again?

[dream_stryker]

I cant find that video now after a quick look, but its there somewhere. Here is one that shows his position at impact quite well. If you freeze the video at EXACTLY 1 14 on the timer you will see that his right shoulder has been allowed to return to the address position, but as soon as it reaches that position it is held back for a fraction of a second until the hit. It never moves out further towards the ball until the hit. It may move vertically a fraction only.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_FE0MYhI-Q

 

If you dont return the right shoulder to its position at address in terms of its distance from the line of ball to target, then you cant reach the ball properly at impact. If you overdo the rotation and get the right shoulder closer to the ball than at address at impact, you have to make too many compensations and its likely you wont get that Hogan whipcrack release.

 

I agree that the IMPRESSION of these swings is one of fairly constant rotation, but I still detect a braking /stopping effort of the right shoulder as it reaches the ideal hitting position quite early in the downswing.

 

I also agree that correct impact with this Hogan move will deloft the club, but thats a pro move. Thats why a guy like Jesper Parnevick with an upright pull swing and more loft than standard in his wedges can hit a sandwedge normally about 120-130 yards. Because he makes a 56 into a 52!

 

Thanks for the video. Interesting enough....I happened to be going over 5 lessons the other night and I checked the section on hip rotation (the part with famous picture of the elastic band attached to the left hip.) Mr Hogan also mentions that (Im paraphrasing) the right hip internally rotates at the same time the left hip begins to rotate back. If you do this.....you'll find that internally rotating that right hip/thigh seems to "lock" the right shoulder/latissimus from rushing forward. The right arm still has freedom of movement though. I think the braking/unbraking is an effect of something else in Mr Hogan's swing.....not active manipulation.

 

Thanks for putting this clue out there though. I hit some great shots today just being mindful of where my right shoulder was when I hit the ball. It's moving far to close to the ball on my bad shots. :drinks:

[HoganAfficianado]

I've know a few people that have seen Hogan in person and they all say that his swing was a blur. I think Tiger's current driver swing is a good example of holding the right shoulder back.

[jp12g]

How did he brake the right shoulder?

 

Was the braking for delivering the club?

 

When did he start braking and how long did it brake?

 

How does it start accelerating again?

 

 

Well, I'll have a stab at answering this.

 

Look at the video in post#18 again at 35 seconds, the swing with the caption "I guess that takes care of Mr Golf" plus the swing after that. I have always been fascinated by the fact that Hogan appears to start his lower body move/ hip lateral move back to the left, WELL BEFORE he has finished his backswing. He almost gives the impression that his hips are still turning right as they start to move laterally left. Certainly his first hip move is at least lateral left, not a rotation left.

 

In my view this does two things. Helps keep his shoulders back and tilts them very early, because his spine tilts early. By this method he prevents any over the top move caused by a rising right shoulder at the top of the backswing and achieves the desired downswing plane he talks about in 5 lessons.

 

Ideally he wants his downswing plane BELOW his backswing plane and angled a little inside to out; in reality he seems to just prevent himself from coming back to the ball on a higher plane than his backswing plane, which is just as effective. This hip rotation to the right, followed by a lateral move of the hips to the left WHILE THE HIPS WERE FULLY TURNED RIGHT gave him the room to swing his arms back down without his right shoulder intruding longditudinally, beyond its address position IMHO!

 

Probably use of the term "brake" is a bad one. Better to say his right shoulder slowed down. IMO I think the right shoulder became entirely passive in the last part of the downswing, so it only moved down or forward as a result of the right arm straightening and dragging it around, essentially after the hit.

 

Once the right shoulder replicates its address position in the downswing, the arms and hands should have taken over the work of hitting the ball.

[magnum184]

How did he brake the right shoulder?

 

Was the braking for delivering the club?

 

When did he start braking and how long did it brake?

 

How does it start accelerating again?

 

 

Well, I'll have a stab at answering this.

 

Look at the video in post#18 again at 35 seconds, the swing with the caption "I guess that takes care of Mr Golf" plus the swing after that. I have always been fascinated by the fact that Hogan appears to start his lower body move/ hip lateral move back to the left, WELL BEFORE he has finished his backswing. He almost gives the impression that his hips are still turning right as they start to move laterally left. Certainly his first hip move is at least lateral left, not a rotation left.

 

In my view this does two things. Helps keep his shoulders back and tilts them very early, because his spine tilts early. By this method he prevents any over the top move caused by a rising right shoulder at the top of the backswing and achieves the desired downswing plane he talks about in 5 lessons.

 

Ideally he wants his downswing plane BELOW his backswing plane and angled a little inside to out; in reality he seems to just prevent himself from coming back to the ball on a higher plane than his backswing plane, which is just as effective. This hip rotation to the right, followed by a lateral move of the hips to the left WHILE THE HIPS WERE FULLY TURNED RIGHT gave him the room to swing his arms back down without his right shoulder intruding longditudinally, beyond its address position IMHO!

 

Probably use of the term "brake" is a bad one. Better to say his right shoulder slowed down. IMO I think the right shoulder became entirely passive in the last part of the downswing, so it only moved down or forward as a result of the right arm straightening and dragging it around, essentially after the hit.

 

Once the right shoulder replicates its address position in the downswing, the arms and hands should have taken over the work of hitting the ball.

 

 

I think you're seeing Hogan's transition in your analysis up to delivery, but you lose it once he reaches delivery.

 

The right arm straightening to the ball is something that didn't occur. Hogan's arms don't pull the shoulders around. He's working like hell with his pivot once he reaches delivery. And that will get him to the ball with an arrangement of arms/wrists/club without losing all he had at delivery.

 

Coming from the angles he did, if he were to allow his arms to simply take over........the club would go flying out to right field.

 

If you could come into the ball from the angles Hogan did, you would quickly see what a powerful pivot you needed to deliver the club and have control over the clubface. He had such a load coming from a shallow angle. When you turn on the pivot with the club coming from those angles, the club is electric at that point. And that amazing pivot he had through the ball will make his hands, especially the first joint of the trigger finger of the right hand, feel that electric load.

 

Look to see when Hogan's right arm fully straightens. Look to see how far and fast Hogan's left shoulder/side moves from delivery and after impact. That was quite an athletic pivot. Had to be. Any hint of a stall would have been trouble.

 

Right side hasn't finished it's work in Hogan's swing nearing delivery..............................it's just getting started.

[Siteseer2]

How did he brake the right shoulder?

 

Was the braking for delivering the club?

 

When did he start braking and how long did it brake?

 

How does it start accelerating again?

 

 

Well, I'll have a stab at answering this.

 

Look at the video in post#18 again at 35 seconds, the swing with the caption "I guess that takes care of Mr Golf" plus the swing after that. I have always been fascinated by the fact that Hogan appears to start his lower body move/ hip lateral move back to the left, WELL BEFORE he has finished his backswing. He almost gives the impression that his hips are still turning right as they start to move laterally left. Certainly his first hip move is at least lateral left, not a rotation left.

 

In my view this does two things. Helps keep his shoulders back and tilts them very early, because his spine tilts early. By this method he prevents any over the top move caused by a rising right shoulder at the top of the backswing and achieves the desired downswing plane he talks about in 5 lessons.

 

Ideally he wants his downswing plane BELOW his backswing plane and angled a little inside to out; in reality he seems to just prevent himself from coming back to the ball on a higher plane than his backswing plane, which is just as effective. This hip rotation to the right, followed by a lateral move of the hips to the left WHILE THE HIPS WERE FULLY TURNED RIGHT gave him the room to swing his arms back down without his right shoulder intruding longditudinally, beyond its address position IMHO!

 

Probably use of the term "brake" is a bad one. Better to say his right shoulder slowed down. IMO I think the right shoulder became entirely passive in the last part of the downswing, so it only moved down or forward as a result of the right arm straightening and dragging it around, essentially after the hit.

 

Once the right shoulder replicates its address position in the downswing, the arms and hands should have taken over the work of hitting the ball.

 

 

I think you're seeing Hogan's transition in your analysis up to delivery, but you lose it once he reaches delivery.

 

The right arm straightening to the ball is something that didn't occur. Hogan's arms don't pull the shoulders around. He's working like hell with his pivot once he reaches delivery. And that will get him to the ball with an arrangement of arms/wrists/club without losing all he had at delivery.

 

Coming from the angles he did, if he were to allow his arms to simply take over........the club would go flying out to right field.

 

If you could come into the ball from the angles Hogan did, you would quickly see what a powerful pivot you needed to deliver the club and have control over the clubface. He had such a load coming from a shallow angle. When you turn on the pivot with the club coming from those angles, the club is electric at that point. And that amazing pivot he had through the ball will make his hands, especially the first joint of the trigger finger of the right hand, feel that electric load.

 

Look to see when Hogan's right arm fully straightens. Look to see how far and fast Hogan's left shoulder/side moves from delivery and after impact. That was quite an athletic pivot. Had to be. Any hint of a stall would have been trouble.

 

Right side hasn't finished it's work in Hogan's swing nearing delivery..............................it's just getting started.

great, great analysis Magnum... anything us mere mortals can apply, or was it unique to Hogan... I'm always amazed by his position... and how to get there:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D60

[jp12g]

How did he brake the right shoulder?

 

Was the braking for delivering the club?

 

When did he start braking and how long did it brake?

 

How does it start accelerating again?

 

 

Well, I'll have a stab at answering this.

 

Look at the video in post#18 again at 35 seconds, the swing with the caption "I guess that takes care of Mr Golf" plus the swing after that. I have always been fascinated by the fact that Hogan appears to start his lower body move/ hip lateral move back to the left, WELL BEFORE he has finished his backswing. He almost gives the impression that his hips are still turning right as they start to move laterally left. Certainly his first hip move is at least lateral left, not a rotation left.

 

In my view this does two things. Helps keep his shoulders back and tilts them very early, because his spine tilts early. By this method he prevents any over the top move caused by a rising right shoulder at the top of the backswing and achieves the desired downswing plane he talks about in 5 lessons.

 

Ideally he wants his downswing plane BELOW his backswing plane and angled a little inside to out; in reality he seems to just prevent himself from coming back to the ball on a higher plane than his backswing plane, which is just as effective. This hip rotation to the right, followed by a lateral move of the hips to the left WHILE THE HIPS WERE FULLY TURNED RIGHT gave him the room to swing his arms back down without his right shoulder intruding longditudinally, beyond its address position IMHO!

 

Probably use of the term "brake" is a bad one. Better to say his right shoulder slowed down. IMO I think the right shoulder became entirely passive in the last part of the downswing, so it only moved down or forward as a result of the right arm straightening and dragging it around, essentially after the hit.

 

Once the right shoulder replicates its address position in the downswing, the arms and hands should have taken over the work of hitting the ball.

 

 

I think you're seeing Hogan's transition in your analysis up to delivery, but you lose it once he reaches delivery.

 

The right arm straightening to the ball is something that didn't occur. Hogan's arms don't pull the shoulders around. He's working like hell with his pivot once he reaches delivery. And that will get him to the ball with an arrangement of arms/wrists/club without losing all he had at delivery.

 

Coming from the angles he did, if he were to allow his arms to simply take over........the club would go flying out to right field.

 

If you could come into the ball from the angles Hogan did, you would quickly see what a powerful pivot you needed to deliver the club and have control over the clubface. He had such a load coming from a shallow angle. When you turn on the pivot with the club coming from those angles, the club is electric at that point. And that amazing pivot he had through the ball will make his hands, especially the first joint of the trigger finger of the right hand, feel that electric load.

 

Look to see when Hogan's right arm fully straightens. Look to see how far and fast Hogan's left shoulder/side moves from delivery and after impact. That was quite an athletic pivot. Had to be. Any hint of a stall would have been trouble.

 

Right side hasn't finished it's work in Hogan's swing nearing delivery..............................it's just getting started.

great, great analysis Magnum... anything us mere mortals can apply, or was it unique to Hogan... I'm always amazed by his position... and how to get there:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D60

 

 

Well I certainly dont agree with all that.

 

Look at the "behind the Ropes" video on U Tube. I have the full VHS of this as well.

 

The analyst says the "Hogan's shoulders are always square to the target"

 

Yet Hogan is clearly also seen to reach that position of square shoulders quite early in the downswing. It follows that they are passive from there till the hit.

 

As for the right arm, there is many an optical illusion in looking at fast golf downswings. Hogan certainly had a right arm position that was bent till the last moment and "inside" the left elbow, but if you look at a stop frame of slow mo of any front on swing, his right arm appears to be almost straight when his hands have got to opposite his left knee, ie a very small fraction of a second after the hit. That to me is evidence of his right arm straightening through the hit big time.

 

You say he was working hard on his pivot right through the downswing. I would suggest that rather he worked on his pivot late in the backswing and early in the downswing, got to the ideal position with his body for hitting the ball quite early in the downswing, then just hit as hard as he could with his arms and hands against that ideal position.

 

If Hogan held his shoulders square, kept his back of neck position constant and his arms just swung down and out to the ball, it doesnt matter how low his plane was or how inside to outside the swing looked, it would be impossible for him to swing outside the line ie to right field [extra cover] even after the hit. Only result could be inside to square to inside. To swing outside or to right field from that position he would have had to suddenly grown longer arms, or slowed down his swing abruptly at impact so his shoulders could allow him to move the club beyond the line of the shot ie to the outside after the hit. Clearly that wasnt going to happen, so the shoulders are dragged around to the left as a reaction to the end speed of the arms and they finish extended and back inside, like Moe Norman, because he has accelerated the club so much in the swing.

 

I think to some extent, you are talking about reactions and treating them as actions.

[eightiron]

How did he brake the right shoulder?

 

Was the braking for delivering the club?

 

When did he start braking and how long did it brake?

 

How does it start accelerating again?

 

 

Well, I'll have a stab at answering this.

 

Look at the video in post#18 again at 35 seconds, the swing with the caption "I guess that takes care of Mr Golf" plus the swing after that. I have always been fascinated by the fact that Hogan appears to start his lower body move/ hip lateral move back to the left, WELL BEFORE he has finished his backswing. He almost gives the impression that his hips are still turning right as they start to move laterally left. Certainly his first hip move is at least lateral left, not a rotation left.

 

In my view this does two things. Helps keep his shoulders back and tilts them very early, because his spine tilts early. By this method he prevents any over the top move caused by a rising right shoulder at the top of the backswing and achieves the desired downswing plane he talks about in 5 lessons.

 

Ideally he wants his downswing plane BELOW his backswing plane and angled a little inside to out; in reality he seems to just prevent himself from coming back to the ball on a higher plane than his backswing plane, which is just as effective. This hip rotation to the right, followed by a lateral move of the hips to the left WHILE THE HIPS WERE FULLY TURNED RIGHT gave him the room to swing his arms back down without his right shoulder intruding longditudinally, beyond its address position IMHO!

 

Probably use of the term "brake" is a bad one. Better to say his right shoulder slowed down. IMO I think the right shoulder became entirely passive in the last part of the downswing, so it only moved down or forward as a result of the right arm straightening and dragging it around, essentially after the hit.

 

Once the right shoulder replicates its address position in the downswing, the arms and hands should have taken over the work of hitting the ball.

 

 

I think you're seeing Hogan's transition in your analysis up to delivery, but you lose it once he reaches delivery.

 

The right arm straightening to the ball is something that didn't occur. Hogan's arms don't pull the shoulders around. He's working like hell with his pivot once he reaches delivery. And that will get him to the ball with an arrangement of arms/wrists/club without losing all he had at delivery.

 

Coming from the angles he did, if he were to allow his arms to simply take over........the club would go flying out to right field.

 

If you could come into the ball from the angles Hogan did, you would quickly see what a powerful pivot you needed to deliver the club and have control over the clubface. He had such a load coming from a shallow angle. When you turn on the pivot with the club coming from those angles, the club is electric at that point. And that amazing pivot he had through the ball will make his hands, especially the first joint of the trigger finger of the right hand, feel that electric load.

 

Look to see when Hogan's right arm fully straightens. Look to see how far and fast Hogan's left shoulder/side moves from delivery and after impact. That was quite an athletic pivot. Had to be. Any hint of a stall would have been trouble.

 

Right side hasn't finished it's work in Hogan's swing nearing delivery..............................it's just getting started.

great, great analysis Magnum... anything us mere mortals can apply, or was it unique to Hogan... I'm always amazed by his position... and how to get there:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D60

 

 

Well I certainly dont agree with all that.

 

Look at the "behind the Ropes" video on U Tube. I have the full VHS of this as well.

 

The analyst says the "Hogan's shoulders are always square to the target"

 

Yet Hogan is clearly also seen to reach that position of square shoulders quite early in the downswing. It follows that they are passive from there till the hit.

 

As for the right arm, there is many an optical illusion in looking at fast golf downswings. Hogan certainly had a right arm position that was bent till the last moment and "inside" the left elbow, but if you look at a stop frame of slow mo of any front on swing, his right arm appears to be almost straight when his hands have got to opposite his left knee, ie a very small fraction of a second after the hit. That to me is evidence of his right arm straightening through the hit big time.

 

You say he was working hard on his pivot right through the downswing. I would suggest that rather he worked on his pivot late in the backswing and early in the downswing, got to the ideal position with his body for hitting the ball quite early in the downswing, then just hit as hard as he could with his arms and hands against that ideal position.

 

If Hogan held his shoulders square, kept his back of neck position constant and his arms just swung down and out to the ball, it doesnt matter how low his plane was or how inside to outside the swing looked, it would be impossible for him to swing outside the line ie to right field [extra cover] even after the hit. Only result could be inside to square to inside. To swing outside or to right field from that position he would have had to suddenly grown longer arms, or slowed down his swing abruptly at impact so his shoulders could allow him to move the club beyond the line of the shot ie to the outside after the hit. Clearly that wasnt going to happen, so the shoulders are dragged around to the left as a reaction to the end speed of the arms and they finish extended and back inside, like Moe Norman, because he has accelerated the club so much in the swing.

 

I think to some extent, you are talking about reactions and treating them as actions.

 

Right shoulder "slowing" you see is a reaction to the start of the release of the tailbone and the wrist throw picking up and taking over at the end of the initial shoulder acceleration period

[magnum184]

Well I certainly dont agree with all that.

Look at the "behind the Ropes" video on U Tube. I have the full VHS of this as well.

The analyst says the "Hogan's shoulders are always square to the target"

 

If I remember correctly, he was talking about at address.

Yet Hogan is clearly also seen to reach that position of square shoulders quite early in the downswing. It follows that they are passive from there till the hit.

 

As for the right arm, there is many an optical illusion in looking at fast golf downswings. Hogan certainly had a right arm position that was bent till the last moment and "inside" the left elbow, but if you look at a stop frame of slow mo of any front on swing, his right arm appears to be almost straight when his hands have got to opposite his left knee, ie a very small fraction of a second after the hit. That to me is evidence of his right arm straightening through the hit big time.

 

Yes, the right arm will eventually straighten. But think about getting to your SQUARE SHOULDER position, with the right elbow still leading and bent (pitch), and now tell me you would just want to start pushing with your right arm to get the club to the ball without the assistance of the pivot? What happens when you run out of right arm?

I see it still bent and as a result of a pivot/tailbone release.

 

 

 

 

You say he was working hard on his pivot right through the downswing. I would suggest that rather he worked on his pivot late in the backswing and early in the downswing, got to the ideal position with his body for hitting the ball quite early in the downswing, then just hit as hard as he could with his arms and hands against that ideal position.

 

If this were true, how does Hogan's club work back inside and normally exit under or on his left shoulder into the follow through?

 

 

 

If Hogan held his shoulders square, kept his back of neck position constant and his arms just swung down and out to the ball, it doesnt matter how low his plane was or how inside to outside the swing looked, it would be impossible for him to swing outside the line ie to right field [extra cover] even after the hit. Only result could be inside to square to inside. To swing outside or to right field from that position he would have had to suddenly grown longer arms, or slowed down his swing abruptly at impact so his shoulders could allow him to move the club beyond the line of the shot ie to the outside after the hit. Clearly that wasnt going to happen, so the shoulders are dragged around to the left as a reaction to the end speed of the arms and they finish extended and back inside, like Moe Norman, because he has accelerated the club so much in the swing.

 

Frames 8, 9, 10, and 11 in the below sequence. Pay particularly close attention to how much the left side of the body is moving towards the left side of the frames. That is someone using a hell of a pivot.

 

I think to some extent, you are talking about reactions and treating them as actions.

 

No reactions here. You think Hogan just dumped everything onto the ball once he got to delivery and let his arms/hands finish the swing? I know what it's like to bring in a Hogan type load and if I dumped it, without using the pivot, I would be hitting hozzle rockets all day long.

[biscuity]

I tried holding my right shoulder back at the range a few times this week. It's an interesting feeling, makes your left side feel more taught and powerful. If you do the same with the right hip you can really feel the left side muscles coil and unwind.

 

Give it a try, then try moving the right side early for comparison.

[Dariusz J.]

Good post, Magnum :clapping:

 

Cheers

[eightiron]

Well I certainly dont agree with all that.

Look at the "behind the Ropes" video on U Tube. I have the full VHS of this as well.

The analyst says the "Hogan's shoulders are always square to the target"

 

If I remember correctly, he was talking about at address.

Yet Hogan is clearly also seen to reach that position of square shoulders quite early in the downswing. It follows that they are passive from there till the hit.

 

As for the right arm, there is many an optical illusion in looking at fast golf downswings. Hogan certainly had a right arm position that was bent till the last moment and "inside" the left elbow, but if you look at a stop frame of slow mo of any front on swing, his right arm appears to be almost straight when his hands have got to opposite his left knee, ie a very small fraction of a second after the hit. That to me is evidence of his right arm straightening through the hit big time.

 

Yes, the right arm will eventually straighten. But think about getting to your SQUARE SHOULDER position, with the right elbow still leading and bent (pitch), and now tell me you would just want to start pushing with your right arm to get the club to the ball without the assistance of the pivot? What happens when you run out of right arm?

I see it still bent and as a result of a pivot/tailbone release.

 

 

 

 

You say he was working hard on his pivot right through the downswing. I would suggest that rather he worked on his pivot late in the backswing and early in the downswing, got to the ideal position with his body for hitting the ball quite early in the downswing, then just hit as hard as he could with his arms and hands against that ideal position.

 

If this were true, how does Hogan's club work back inside and normally exit under or on his left shoulder into the follow through?

 

 

 

If Hogan held his shoulders square, kept his back of neck position constant and his arms just swung down and out to the ball, it doesnt matter how low his plane was or how inside to outside the swing looked, it would be impossible for him to swing outside the line ie to right field [extra cover] even after the hit. Only result could be inside to square to inside. To swing outside or to right field from that position he would have had to suddenly grown longer arms, or slowed down his swing abruptly at impact so his shoulders could allow him to move the club beyond the line of the shot ie to the outside after the hit. Clearly that wasnt going to happen, so the shoulders are dragged around to the left as a reaction to the end speed of the arms and they finish extended and back inside, like Moe Norman, because he has accelerated the club so much in the swing.

 

Frames 8, 9, 10, and 11 in the below sequence. Pay particularly close attention to how much the left side of the body is moving towards the left side of the frames. That is someone using a hell of a pivot.

 

I think to some extent, you are talking about reactions and treating them as actions.

 

No reactions here. You think Hogan just dumped everything onto the ball once he got to delivery and let his arms/hands finish the swing? I know what it's like to bring in a Hogan type load and if I dumped it, without using the pivot, I would be hitting hozzle rockets all day long.

 

 

Magnum you make sense to me ..great post.. But for the average Joe Duffers a new feel gets run up a flagpole and bingo solid contact..thats great...was it suddenly a Hogan Secret...a sane person would know the answer