Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[Mcgeeno]

Yeah the dilusional ones don't realize an LPGA pro likely hits her 4 hybrid as good as a 4 cap hits his 7 iron.

 

Even if the 280 4 cap male is actually hitting more than his usual 6-7 fairways a round, he's only getting 30 yards on the average 250 yard LPGA pro

 

Distance won't make this close enough to be a challenge. The lady will chip better, putt better, hit it straighter and will have played games that matter her entire career.

 

It would be a massacre 9 times out of 10 and maybe one time it would be close.

[dhc1]

I'd be interested to hear how the LPGA courses are set up vs. the PGA. When I heard Justin Rose complain that the Ryder cup pin placements were far too benign, it reminded me of this thread. Are LPGA set ups significantly easier than PGA? What about the average set-ups of championship caliber courses for member play? Are they easier than that used for rating purposes?

 

More specifically, what about pinehurst #2 and oakmont?

[Shilgy]

I'd be interested to hear how the LPGA courses are set up vs. the PGA. When I heard Justin Rose complain that the Ryder cup pin placements were far too benign, it reminded me of this thread. Are LPGA set ups significantly easier than PGA? What about the average set-ups of championship caliber courses for member play? Are they easier than that used for rating purposes?

 

More specifically, what about pinehurst #2 and oakmont?

IMO they are set up easier than your standard PGA tour event. No question. But....they are much for difficult than your standard rating purposes set up. They do generally have deeper rough than a normal country club-not as deep as the mens tour though as raw strength is a factor. Greens are faster than the norm and pins are set in difficult positions. But not as difficult as some mens events. Other mens events that are known as shoot outs the mens tour is not set up that difficult either.

[chrismikayla]

I'd be interested to hear how the LPGA courses are set up vs. the PGA. When I heard Justin Rose complain that the Ryder cup pin placements were far too benign, it reminded me of this thread. Are LPGA set ups significantly easier than PGA? What about the average set-ups of championship caliber courses for member play? Are they easier than that used for rating purposes?

 

More specifically, what about pinehurst #2 and oakmont?

IMO they are set up easier than your standard PGA tour event. No question. But....they are much for difficult than your standard rating purposes set up. They do generally have deeper rough than a normal country club-not as deep as the mens tour though as raw strength is a factor. Greens are faster than the norm and pins are set in difficult positions. But not as difficult as some mens events. Other mens events that are known as shoot outs the mens tour is not set up that difficult either.

 

I played RTJ in Prattville after the Navistar Classic and it was definitely set up harder than the regular course with penal rough and the speed of the Greens.

[CallawayLefty]

I'd be interested to hear how the LPGA courses are set up vs. the PGA. When I heard Justin Rose complain that the Ryder cup pin placements were far too benign, it reminded me of this thread. Are LPGA set ups significantly easier than PGA? What about the average set-ups of championship caliber courses for member play? Are they easier than that used for rating purposes?

 

More specifically, what about pinehurst #2 and oakmont?

IMO they are set up easier than your standard PGA tour event. No question. But....they are much for difficult than your standard rating purposes set up. They do generally have deeper rough than a normal country club-not as deep as the mens tour though as raw strength is a factor. Greens are faster than the norm and pins are set in difficult positions. But not as difficult as some mens events. Other mens events that are known as shoot outs the mens tour is not set up that difficult either.

 

I responded earlier in this thread, but I have attended only one LPGA event (the Coates Championship at Golden Ocala). I was a doubter before attending in person, but will say that I immediately noticed that the greens were very slick and that the pins were mostly tucked. The course did not look easy by any means. They were playing the "middle" tees more or less, which are just over 6,600 yards and rated 72.8/136. The year I went, it took 148 (+4) to make the cut and -16 won. Last place missing the cut was +19 (79-84). If our hypothetical 4 handicap shot his handicap on back to back days (basically 78-78 or 77-78) in a tournament in front of a crowd of tens of thousands of people (which would be a tall order for most 4 handicaps), then he would have beat approximately 7-8 players out of the field (I think it was 120 players).

 

Based on my own personal tournament experience, I'd give a 4 handicap a better chance of shooting 85-85 in those conditions than 77-78.

[isaacbm]

After re-reading a lot of this thread, I've changed my mind. A 4 will beat a tour pro most of the time. My new goal is to get my handicap 8 shots worse, get a sex change and a set of shovels and head out on the road and chase the dream.

[DavePelz4]

After re-reading a lot of this thread, I've changed my mind. A 4 will beat a tour pro most of the time. My new goal is to get my handicap 8 shots worse, get a sex change and a set of shovels and head out on the road and chase the dream.

 

Have you chosen a new name yet? Maybe we should have a poll and let the membership decide?

[Shilgy]

After re-reading a lot of this thread, I've changed my mind. A 4 will beat a tour pro most of the time. My new goal is to get my handicap 8 shots worse, get a sex change and a set of shovels and head out on the road and chase the dream.

That will work great IF you can get the ladies to play at 7000 yards don't forget. :)

[nsxguy]

I played decent basketball in high school. Could I beat an NBA bench player at 1 on 1?

 

No but depending on your height and current conditioning level you would probably have a decent shot against a bench WNBA player.

 

I played college basketball and in that sport the ability, strength, and speed differences between males and females are glaring. Once I saw a good WNBA team scrimmage some JV high school boys and it was an absolute joke. I believe the boys didn't allow any rebounds or shots in the paint. The ladies only got good looks from deep if the boys were late on a rotation to a shooter. In golf those physical differences don't matter nearly as much.

 

They do if the female is hitting it 220 off the tee and is hitting a fairway wood where the male is hitting a 6-iron.

 

Wow, had to jump in on this one. You're talking as if handicap meant nothing and only distance counted. I guess you don't see that. In your estimation, if someone is in the fairway hitting a 6 iron and his opponent is hitting a hybrid or fairway wood then the 6 iron player will win the competition. Maybe, maybe, maybe that hole, maybe. But you absolutely cannot overlook how a 4 handicap player scores to become a 4 handicap player. He shoots his handicap (factoring in slope!) probably 1 in 5 times or so (I said it was 1 in 6 and someone else here said it was 1 in 4). So, 20% of the time he shoots a 77 (slope makes him a 5).

 

Then you look at the LPGA player and here is where the reasoning by many posters breaks down. They will say (paraphrasing) "ok, well if it's 7000 yards and a 75 slope and you've got a 280 carry 4 handicapper male, well then he will give her a game." No. Or yes if by "game" you mean he will beat her one out of 20 times. He will get to par with his handicap 20% of the time and she will probably shoot 5 over par about 10% of the time I'd say. So that is 1/5 times 1/10 to find where these two likely scoring patterns intersect. That is one out of fifty times. Massage the numbers as you see fit. Make it 1 out of 4 for the male and one out of 6 for the female. Now it's one out of 24 times he beats her. It's probabilities plain and simple not emotional or anecdotal experiences.

 

Well Juliette, frankly, you're talking as if handicap means everything and distance means nothing.

 

You also calculate the guy's 4 handicap "score",,,,,,,,, at 77, 1 out of 5 times. 81 1 out of 5 times and 79 1 out of 10 times - a reasonable(?) representation of his 10 best out of 20

 

So why do you make NO attempt to calculate the lady's potential score(s) ?

 

So the lady shoots 71 (+2 from 6400 yards par 72, slope say 123) 20% of the time. That about right ? So she'd shoot 75 20% of the time and 73 10% of the time - similar to the guy, a reasonable(?) representation of HER 10 best.

 

Now let's move the lady back 600 yards. Now personally I think the scores go up a lot faster moving back that they go down moving forward but whatever so it'd probably be more than the 3 shots in CR/slope but whatever. Since the C.R. is now 75 instead of 72, let's add just 3 shots to her scores. That sound fair ?

 

So from 7000 the lady shoots 74 20 % of the time, 78 20% of the time and 76 10% of the time.

 

So for the 10 BEST of both their 20 rounds you have overlap. The guy shoots 4 77s, 2 79s and 4 81s. The lady shoots 4 74s, 4 78s and 2 76s.

 

And this doesn't even bring into account the OTHER 10 rounds out of the 20 that don't go into either handicap and therefore can't even be estimated.

 

So the issue is really who's shooting what and when.

 

So bottom line, yes, I agree with you, the 4 male from 7000 yards CAN beat the +2 LPGA Pro.

[mx6262]

I bet a true 4 caper would know that he couldn't beat a LPGA tour player day in day out. The only ones that think this are 15+. Get down to a 4 and you'll know the difference between a +3 and a 4 a ton.......better chance getting down to a 4 than a 4 beating a tour pro..

I always in joy seeing those who bet they have a chance at this. These girls are millionaires from playing golf..just think about that for a moment..go practice on your game +3 gets you a good shot at compeating... :golfer:

[MeikoKaji]

hi, 4 here. i just came here to say i came here !

 

what a ridiculous thread. i just averaged 290 off the tee for 5 days on an epga tour stop and play with pros and top females regularly. i can tell you, most of their caddies would take my money every day. as an amateur that can't practice much, i may chip one too wide, i may three putt, i may knock one into the ocean, leave one in the bunker or hit one into a fairway bunker. golf is hard.

 

yes, i get 2 to 4 birdies per round, reach par 5s but a retired pro just hit 16 greens, made 5 putts and shot 65. i've never done that. i've only shot in the 60's twice. if i move up a tee box i have regularly, though, but, again, sloppy things happen as a 4.

[SurfDuffer]

Unfortunately the majority of contrary opinions here are suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding of the english language, logic, players abilities and the flaws of the handicap system. This is compounded by a lack of exposure or experience playing with actual LPGA players.

 

To remedy this we have to start with a basic understanding of two common words in the english language. The two words are CAN and WILL.

 

Let's go to the handy dandy Webster's Dictionary to help clear this up:

 

CAN

 

a : know how to <she can read>b : be physically or mentally able to <he can lift 200 pounds>c —used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive> <those things canhappen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may

 

WILLa —used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will>

b —used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>

 

Hopefully now some of you understand that the original question of this thread specifically uses the word CAN and not the word WILL. We are talking the difference between something being within the realm of possibility and something being a certainty.

 

Once we reach common ground on the english language we can move forward and delve into the clouded view of the playing abilities of various 4-handicap players, flaws in the handicap system and the lack of exposure to the real world play of LPGA players outside the elite players playing near the top of the leaderboard that you see on television.

 

 

I've added up approximately 23+/- 18-hole rounds I've played with LPGA players of various rankings over the course of a number of years. Most of these rounds were played on a course that I would rate as fairly easy especially for a male player who is reasonably long and accurate with a driver in his hands. Over those rounds I've seen play that ranged from lights out stunning to play leaving me wonder how this individual could break 80. They have bad days just like every one of us. To me it all comes down to how often the good day where a male holding a 4 handicap shoots 76 or lower intersects with the day a LPGA player with status (not necessarily an elite player) shoots 76 or higher playing from the lady's yardages. Both instances are well within the realm of possibility based upon my experience.

 

Take it for what its worth but no doubt this thread will go on for another 20 pages.

[CallawayLefty]

Unfortunately the majority of contrary opinions here are suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding of the english language, logic, players abilities and the flaws of the handicap system. This is compounded by a lack of exposure or experience playing with actual LPGA players.

 

To remedy this we have to start with a basic understanding of two common words in the english language. The two words are CAN and WILL.

 

Let's go to the handy dandy Webster's Dictionary to help clear this up:

 

CAN

 

a : know how to <she can read>b : be physically or mentally able to <he can lift 200 pounds>c —used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive> <those things canhappen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may

 

WILLa —used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will>

b —used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>

 

Hopefully now some of you understand that the original question of this thread specifically uses the word CAN and not the word WILL. We are talking the difference between something being within the realm of possibility and something being a certainty.

 

Once we reach common ground on the english language we can move forward and delve into the clouded view of the playing abilities of various 4-handicap players, flaws in the handicap system and the lack of exposure to the real world play of LPGA players outside the elite players playing near the top of the leaderboard that you see on television.

 

 

I've added up approximately 23+/- 18-hole rounds I've played with LPGA players of various rankings over the course of a number of years. Most of these rounds were played on a course that I would rate as fairly easy especially for a male player who is reasonably long and accurate with a driver in his hands. Over those rounds I've seen play that ranged from lights out stunning to play leaving me wonder how this individual could break 80. They have bad days just like every one of us. To me it all comes down to how often the good day where a male holding a 4 handicap shoots 76 or lower intersects with the day a LPGA player with status (not necessarily an elite player) shoots 76 or higher playing from the lady's yardages. Both instances are well within the realm of possibility based upon my experience.

 

Take it for what its worth but no doubt this thread will go on for another 20 pages.

 

Uggggghhh. This is the frustrating thing about this whole thread. The title says CAN, so of course people focus on that. I'm a scratch golfer, CAN I beat a tour pro? Of course I CAN. Dustin Johnson still shoots 76 every now and again, so yeah, there are days that I probably CAN beat him by a few strokes. By that rationale, a 25 handicap CAN beat him. Who knows, maybe he'll twist his ankle and not be able to finish the round. 25 handicap wins. Maybe a grizzly bear mauls him on the back 9. 25 handicap wins.

 

So, perhaps, a better statement of the title is "does a 4 handicap have a reasonable chance of beating an LPGA tour pro?" The answer to that is absolutely not, unless you consider annual worst rounds, twisted ankles, and on-course grizzly bear maulings to be reasonable.

[Obee]

Unfortunately the majority of contrary opinions here are suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding of the english language, logic, players abilities and the flaws of the handicap system. This is compounded by a lack of exposure or experience playing with actual LPGA players.

 

To remedy this we have to start with a basic understanding of two common words in the english language. The two words are CAN and WILL.

 

Let's go to the handy dandy Webster's Dictionary to help clear this up:

 

CAN

 

a : know how to <she can read>b : be physically or mentally able to <he can lift 200 pounds>c —used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive> <those things canhappen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may

 

WILLa —used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will>

b —used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>

 

Hopefully now some of you understand that the original question of this thread specifically uses the word CAN and not the word WILL. We are talking the difference between something being within the realm of possibility and something being a certainty.

 

Once we reach common ground on the english language we can move forward and delve into the clouded view of the playing abilities of various 4-handicap players, flaws in the handicap system and the lack of exposure to the real world play of LPGA players outside the elite players playing near the top of the leaderboard that you see on television.

 

 

I've added up approximately 23+/- 18-hole rounds I've played with LPGA players of various rankings over the course of a number of years. Most of these rounds were played on a course that I would rate as fairly easy especially for a male player who is reasonably long and accurate with a driver in his hands. Over those rounds I've seen play that ranged from lights out stunning to play leaving me wonder how this individual could break 80. They have bad days just like every one of us. To me it all comes down to how often the good day where a male holding a 4 handicap shoots 76 or lower intersects with the day a LPGA player with status (not necessarily an elite player) shoots 76 or higher playing from the lady's yardages. Both instances are well within the realm of possibility based upon my experience.

 

Take it for what its worth but no doubt this thread will go on for another 20 pages.

 

Nicely done SD.

 

I hereby declare this thread CLOSED!! ;-)

[SurfDuffer]

By the way, at last weeks event the bottom scores on the full leaderboard were both 82-76 for the first two rounds. There might even be odds that a 4-handicap male would beat both of those two players two rounds in a row.

[Shilgy]

By the way, at last weeks event the bottom scores on the full leaderboard were both 82-76 for the first two rounds. There might even be odds that a 4-handicap male would beat both of those two players two rounds in a row.

That most certainly was not #100 on the LPGA. By that rationale a 4 can beat the PGA tour pro looking at the last player on a weekly leaderboard that likely has absolutely no status at all.

[CallawayLefty]

By the way, at last weeks event the bottom scores on the full leaderboard were both 82-76 for the first two rounds. There might even be odds that a 4-handicap male would beat both of those two players two rounds in a row.

That most certainly was not #100 on the LPGA. By that rationale a 4 can beat the PGA tour pro looking at the last player on a weekly leaderboard that likely has absolutely no status at all.

 

Are you trying to tell me that people don't play to their potential in tournaments every time? Because our hypothetical 4 handicap in this thread shoots in the 70s every time he plays and threatens to break par as soon as you put him at 6,500 yards. He CAN beat LPGA players, you know.

[Shilgy]

By the way, at last weeks event the bottom scores on the full leaderboard were both 82-76 for the first two rounds. There might even be odds that a 4-handicap male would beat both of those two players two rounds in a row.

That most certainly was not #100 on the LPGA. By that rationale a 4 can beat the PGA tour pro looking at the last player on a weekly leaderboard that likely has absolutely no status at all.

 

Are you trying to tell me that people don't play to their potential in tournaments every time? Because our hypothetical 4 handicap in this thread shoots in the 70s every time he plays and threatens to break par as soon as you put him at 6,500 yards. He CAN beat LPGA players, you know.

Like I said-sure he can. And would if they play enough times. He would also likely beat the last place guy after two rounds of a PGA tour event eventually.

[mshills]

After re-reading a lot of this thread, I've changed my mind. A 4 will beat a tour pro most of the time. My new goal is to get my handicap 8 shots worse, get a sex change and a set of shovels and head out on the road and chase the dream.

 

Not sure if I should steal the words of a poster (Thrillhouse) who is greatly missed :( around here, but I will. Go for it, dude!

[SurfDuffer]

On the local course where the ladies play a tournament every year most men with a 5 or lower handicap would be upset with themselves if they shot 80 or higher from the tees where the ladies play. Not saying they break 80 every round but they would be upset with themselves when they do not. In that event this year the bottom two scores were 78-79 and 82-88. In the bottom 3rd of the leaderboard there are a number of well known names who shot 80 or higher for one of their two rounds. One player who made the cut and took some money home went 65-76-80. Guess what, sprinkle a handful of 4 handicap men into that field playing that course set-up and they wouldn't be coming in last.

 

I don't say any of this to disparrage the event the course or the players. It is just the reality of the numbers. I fully expect a 4 handicap on that course from those tees to have a majority of his scores fall between 75 and 80.

 

PS: The course as they play it is a Par 71 that they play at 6200 yards. This course features two par 5s that a lot of men could easily play as par 4s and two par 4s that your longer men would be nearly reaching off the tee.

[Shilgy]

On the local course where the ladies play a tournament every year most men with a 5 or lower handicap would be upset with themselves if they shot 80 or higher from the tees where the ladies play. Not saying they break 80 every round but they would be upset with themselves when they do not. In that event this year the bottom two scores were 78-79 and 82-88. In the bottom 3rd of the leaderboard there are a number of well known names who shot 80 or higher for one of their two rounds. One player who made the cut and took some money home went 65-76-80. Guess what, sprinkle a handful of 4 handicap men into that field playing that course set-up and they wouldn't be coming in last.

 

I don't say any of this to disparrage the event the course or the players. It is just the reality of the numbers. I fully expect a 4 handicap on that course from those tees to have a majority of his scores fall between 75 and 80.

Let's phrase it this way. Could any of your 4 cappers keep their card on the LPGA or just not finish dead last in a few events? The thread was about the 4 versus #75-100. Not a 4 versus the worst score in a given week.

[dhc1]

On the local course where the ladies play a tournament every year most men with a 5 or lower handicap would be upset with themselves if they shot 80 or higher from the tees where the ladies play. Not saying they break 80 every round but they would be upset with themselves when they do not. In that event this year the bottom two scores were 78-79 and 82-88. In the bottom 3rd of the leaderboard there are a number of well known names who shot 80 or higher for one of their two rounds. One player who made the cut and took some money home went 65-76-80. Guess what, sprinkle a handful of 4 handicap men into that field playing that course set-up and they wouldn't be coming in last.

 

I don't say any of this to disparrage the event the course or the players. It is just the reality of the numbers. I fully expect a 4 handicap on that course from those tees to have a majority of his scores fall between 75 and 80.

 

Do you (or anyone) have the pin placements and tee boxes for the Pinehurst Opens?

 

I'd most interested to see how the yardage matches against the Blue teeboxes (6733 yards with a slope/rating of 72.8/131) and how the pin placements compared to the men's Open as well as regular play. Most likely green speeds were much slower than the men's Open but I doubt it would be slower than for regular play

[iteachgolf]

On the local course where the ladies play a tournament every year most men with a 5 or lower handicap would be upset with themselves if they shot 80 or higher from the tees where the ladies play. Not saying they break 80 every round but they would be upset with themselves when they do not. In that event this year the bottom two scores were 78-79 and 82-88. In the bottom 3rd of the leaderboard there are a number of well known names who shot 80 or higher for one of their two rounds. One player who made the cut and took some money home went 65-76-80. Guess what, sprinkle a handful of 4 handicap men into that field playing that course set-up and they wouldn't be coming in last.

 

I don't say any of this to disparrage the event the course or the players. It is just the reality of the numbers. I fully expect a 4 handicap on that course from those tees to have a majority of his scores fall between 75 and 80.

Let's phrase it this way. Could any of your 4 cappers keep their card on the LPGA or just not finish dead last in a few events? The thread was about the 4 versus #75-100. Not a 4 versus the worst score in a given week.

 

Actually the original premise was a 4 vs any LPGA tour player. I'm the one that said 75-100 in a different discussion completely.

[SurfDuffer]

Like I said further up on this page some seem to not understand the english language. Nobody here is arguing, at least I'm not that a 4 handicap is a better overall player. The question is CAN a 4-handicap beat an LPGA player. I've demonstrated here that absolutely a 4 handicap would have a fair shot perhaps even a very very good shot against the bottom of the field at a given event.

[SurfDuffer]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

[Shilgy]

On the local course where the ladies play a tournament every year most men with a 5 or lower handicap would be upset with themselves if they shot 80 or higher from the tees where the ladies play. Not saying they break 80 every round but they would be upset with themselves when they do not. In that event this year the bottom two scores were 78-79 and 82-88. In the bottom 3rd of the leaderboard there are a number of well known names who shot 80 or higher for one of their two rounds. One player who made the cut and took some money home went 65-76-80. Guess what, sprinkle a handful of 4 handicap men into that field playing that course set-up and they wouldn't be coming in last.

 

I don't say any of this to disparrage the event the course or the players. It is just the reality of the numbers. I fully expect a 4 handicap on that course from those tees to have a majority of his scores fall between 75 and 80.

Let's phrase it this way. Could any of your 4 cappers keep their card on the LPGA or just not finish dead last in a few events? The thread was about the 4 versus #75-100. Not a 4 versus the worst score in a given week.

 

Actually the original premise was a 4 vs any LPGA tour player. I'm the one that said 75-100 in a different discussion completely.

Spot on-just reread original post. It was any of the top 152.

 

And yes-the 4 might win an occasional round. One thing to remember though is that the conditions that enable the pro to have a poor round are likely to be very penal for the man as well. And vice versa the day the 4 scores well is also unlikely to be a day the lady has an off day.

[juliette91]

After re-reading a lot of this thread, I've changed my mind. A 4 will beat a tour pro most of the time. My new goal is to get my handicap 8 shots worse, get a sex change and a set of shovels and head out on the road and chase the dream.

 

Nsxguy, tried to respond to you but kept getting error msgs because of the number of quotes or something so I'm just responding randomly to a post where there aren't a lot of quotes (what do you do when this happens other than what I'm doing?)

 

You raise a good point that all the scores need to be taken into account but what's more likely than not is that the LPGA pro's scores will be in a tighter range than the male 4 handicapper. Yeah, that's an assumption but that's one of the big time criteria that separates pros in any sport from amateurs, consistency.

 

First, fwiw, a +2 at a 123 slope par 72 is a +2 so shooting her handicap means shooting 70. Then you assume 20% of the scores will be 75, or 5 strokes higher. Can't really buy that but you're forgetting that she will shoot a number of scores better than her handicap, more of those---again assuming better consistency--than the 4 male will shoot under his.

 

Anyway, there's obviously no way to accurately by numbers be perfect with this because there are many assumptions. And you're only looking at scoring not at the conditions of pressure, too, something not many have raised here. Most 4 handicappers are not tournament experienced at all like someone on tour, not even close, and most people do not rise to the occasion under pressure--quite the contrary.

 

So I'll leave it here. But one final jab and it's not you who raised this. Someone said a JV basketball squad beats or is highly competitive with a WNBA team. To me that's nonsense and ripe for another 49 pages of yammering. But the big idea is that many posters here have such macho filters to overcome that they frequently do not speak reasonably about this topic or for that matter other similar achievement comparisons between the sexes. Good luck to all!

[virtuoso]

892 replies.......I think we've probably covered it.

[CallawayLefty]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

My guess is they would play.........wait for it......to about a 4 handicap. Oh, and if you've EVER played in real golf tournaments, rather than the hypothetical versions conducted on this forum, you would probably agree that 4 handicaps are probably about as likely to shoot in the 90s as the 70s. Most of the people who regularly shoot in the 70s in the tournaments for the two state golf associations and one city golf association I play in are typically scratch or better. I'm not talking the guys who shoot 70 either (although they are obviously scratch or better). I'm talking about the meat of the field - the guys who shoot in the 74 to 78 range. They're all scratch or better. The reality is it's pretty hard to shoot in the 70s when it actually matters. I think a good number is take your actual handicap and add 3 strokes - that's your most likely tournament handicap. 4 handicaps for the most part don't even play in such tournaments because they know they'll never break 80.

 

EDIT: And if the 4 handicap did break 80 (or a multiple day average of 80), they'd finish pretty close to DFL in most of the tournaments in my area. And those are meaningless local amateur events, most of which are contested from right about 6,700 yards. Rarely do I see a set up much longer than that unless we're talking about a USGA qualifier or perhaps the actual state Am tournament. Even those rarely exceed 6,800 to 6,900 yards.

 

4 handicaps don't stand a chance in any event. Men's, women's, junior, etc. They're dead in the water.

[chrismikayla]

Slightly OT but is the general consensus that all 4 handicaps are not the same? Traveling handicap vs one at a 6300 yard course vs a 7000 yard course?