Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[schwollo]

Almost no chance. I played with a futures tour player once at Barton creek and she destroyed everyone despite being shorter off the tee. Her five woods were straighter than a pencil every time. Her short game and putting were ridiculous as well. FWIW I'm a 4.5 and shot 83 while she shot a disappointing 75

[mshills]

Slightly OT but is the general consensus that all 4 handicaps are not the same? Traveling handicap vs one at a 6300 yard course vs a 7000 yard course?

 

If you are referring to handicap index, then yes, a 4.0 is a 4.0 is a 4.0.

 

Course handicap is a different story.

[virtuoso]

Carry on then.

[isaacbm]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

[iteachgolf]

I bet a true 4 caper would know that he couldn't beat a LPGA tour player day in day out. The only ones that think this are 15+. Get down to a 4 and you'll know the difference between a +3 and a 4 a ton.......better chance getting down to a 4 than a 4 beating a tour pro..

I always in joy seeing those who bet they have a chance at this. These girls are millionaires from playing golf..just think about that for a moment..go practice on your game +3 gets you a good shot at compeating... :golfer:

 

The over whelming majority are not millionaires and the ones struggling to keep there card net less than $100k a year.

[chrismikayla]

I bet a true 4 caper would know that he couldn't beat a LPGA tour player day in day out. The only ones that think this are 15+. Get down to a 4 and you'll know the difference between a +3 and a 4 a ton.......better chance getting down to a 4 than a 4 beating a tour pro..

I always in joy seeing those who bet they have a chance at this. These girls are millionaires from playing golf..just think about that for a moment..go practice on your game +3 gets you a good shot at compeating... :golfer:

 

The over whelming majority are not millionaires and the ones struggling to keep there card net less than $100k a year.

 

 

Would you say that only the LPGA superstars are?

[virtuoso]

This is an excellent discussion, let's explore it further.

[isaacbm]

This is an excellent discussion, let's explore it further.

 

This actually made me laugh out loud !

[Obee]

Must. Look. Away....

[chrismikayla]

Have any threads ever got to 1000 responses lol?

[SurfDuffer]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

 

Go back and read my post about our local LPGA event. Its played as a par 71 barely 6,200 yards with very easy par 4s and par 5s for any male who is reasonably long. A 4 handicap who shoots over 80 on this course is going to be pissed off at himself because it was a bad day. Numerous rounds by LPGA players in this event in the high 70s and 80s and one 88 that a 4 handicap would have a reasonable expectation of bettering. That's a fact. All it takes is the courage to go look at the bottom of the full leaderboard of any LPGA event.

[SurfDuffer]

I bet a true 4 caper would know that he couldn't beat a LPGA tour player day in day out. The only ones that think this are 15+. Get down to a 4 and you'll know the difference between a +3 and a 4 a ton.......better chance getting down to a 4 than a 4 beating a tour pro..

I always in joy seeing those who bet they have a chance at this. These girls are millionaires from playing golf..just think about that for a moment..go practice on your game +3 gets you a good shot at compeating... :golfer:

 

The over whelming majority are not millionaires and the ones struggling to keep there card net less than $100k a year.

 

 

Would you say that only the LPGA superstars are?

 

I said it earlier in the thread. There is an enormous difference in playing ability between the elite LPGA players and the bottom 3rd of the rankings. Its night and day when you've played with a number of them. Very different from the PGA in this way where they are all crazy good right down to the Web.com tour.

[SurfDuffer]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

 

We could start a another entire 30 page thread on the flaws of the handicap system. Don't think it translates here especially since the actual handicaps of the LPGA players would be an unknown. My opinion is based almost entirely on what I've seen playing with actual LPGA players.

[Shilgy]

I bet a true 4 caper would know that he couldn't beat a LPGA tour player day in day out. The only ones that think this are 15+. Get down to a 4 and you'll know the difference between a +3 and a 4 a ton.......better chance getting down to a 4 than a 4 beating a tour pro..

I always in joy seeing those who bet they have a chance at this. These girls are millionaires from playing golf..just think about that for a moment..go practice on your game +3 gets you a good shot at compeating... :golfer:

 

The over whelming majority are not millionaires and the ones struggling to keep there card net less than $100k a year.

 

 

Would you say that only the LPGA superstars are?

 

I said it earlier in the thread. There is an enormous difference in playing ability between the elite LPGA players and the bottom 3rd of the rankings. Its night and day when you've played with a number of them. Very different from the PGA in this way where they are all crazy good right down to the Web.com tour.

Agreed to a point, there are 150 players this year averaging under 74. Which is still better than a 4 male. But close enough that he will win more than previously discussed but still less than half of the time. At any given event there may be sponsors exemptions or even Monday qualifiers wise than that and finish at the bottom after two rounds.

And yes, the depth on the men's tour goes waaaaaaaaay deeper than the women's.

[Pepperturbo]

A 4 handicap means on a fairly normal course the guy is shooting 75-79 or whatever as his good scores. That's maybe like a fairly benign 6500-6600yd course at the end of the day.

 

LPGA player would crush a 4 handicap

 

A top 100 LPGA player would most likely win our club championship and our course is 6700yds 75/140. The winning score is usually around +5. I think barring unusually poor play they would beat that. Or at least be the heavy favourite every year

 

You stipulated a normal rated/sloped course and you'd be right, with average 4,.

 

It all depends on orientation though. Some people don't melt under pressure and or rattle when facing fast and challenging tracks. They step up, much like Web.com newbies during their first few times playing on the PGA... step up or fall back. Least that's how I see it...

[WidespreadPanic]

As a 1.5, I would lose. The difference between a 1.5 and +anything is pretty big.

[isaacbm]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

 

We could start a another entire 30 page thread on the flaws of the handicap system. Don't think it translates here especially since the actual handicaps of the LPGA players would be an unknown. My opinion is based almost entirely on what I've seen playing with actual LPGA players.

 

Your opinion isn't quantifiable. Either is mine. That's why we use math and have the handicap system. So we don't have to compare our opinions. Its actually quite easy to figure out the LPGA players handicaps. In fact, we did it thoroughly earlier in this VERY THREAD! Lol! All of their scores are listed on the website and all of the course rating/slope are easily found on the internet. So that's what we did.

 

The 75-100 ranked players are between +1and +2 and the top players in the world are just under +5. That's using only the mens ratings so it's an apples to apples comparison.

 

Again, the discussion of the thread evolved into the likely-hood of a 4 being competitive at the LPGA level. Not could he beat her one time over a 3 hole stretch or over 9 holes or one single round.

 

Who cares AT ALL about a one off?? a 4 handicap makes literally 0 cuts on the LPGA Tour and makes literally $0 money. That means that he's not comparable. End of story. The women that are barely keeping their card are literally 24 shots better on average over a 4 round event than the 4 male.

Why are you focusing solely on the idea of "Can?" Because it's in the title? "Can" you win the powerball? "Can" you get struck by lightening? The point is you're not going to invest your life saving on one or stay inside because of the other.

 

Like I said 10 pages or so ago: How much money would you put up and at what odds? I agree that the guy has a chance of beating the worst players on tour over 18 holes if everything lines up just perfectly for him and poorly for her. So what?? What does that have to do with the actual debate? The actual debate is about if the 4 handicap is comparable to a lower level LPGA player. No he's not comparable. Even if he's a traveling tournament only 4 handicap, he's still 5-6 shots worse per round than the girls that can't pay the bills. So again, he's not comparable.

 

It's math! Not opinion.

[Shilgy]

Great summary Isaac.... Bring the curtain down.

[bluedot]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

 

We could start a another entire 30 page thread on the flaws of the handicap system. Don't think it translates here especially since the actual handicaps of the LPGA players would be an unknown. My opinion is based almost entirely on what I've seen playing with actual LPGA players.

 

Your opinion isn't quantifiable. Either is mine. That's why we use math and have the handicap system. So we don't have to compare our opinions. Its actually quite easy to figure out the LPGA players handicaps. In fact, we did it thoroughly earlier in this VERY THREAD! Lol! All of their scores are listed on the website and all of the course rating/slope are easily found on the internet. So that's what we did.

 

The 75-100 ranked players are between +1and +2 and the top players in the world are just under +5. That's using only the mens ratings so it's an apples to apples comparison.

 

Again, the discussion of the thread evolved into the likely-hood of a 4 being competitive at the LPGA level. Not could he beat her one time over a 3 hole stretch or over 9 holes or one single round.

 

Who cares AT ALL about a one off?? a 4 handicap makes literally 0 cuts on the LPGA Tour and makes literally $0 money. That means that he's not comparable. End of story. The women that are barely keeping their card are literally 24 shots better on average over a 4 round event than the 4 male.

Why are you focusing solely on the idea of "Can?" Because it's in the title? "Can" you win the powerball? "Can" you get struck by lightening? The point is you're not going to invest your life saving on one or stay inside because of the other.

 

Like I said 10 pages or so ago: How much money would you put up and at what odds? I agree that the guy has a chance of beating the worst players on tour over 18 holes if everything lines up just perfectly for him and poorly for her. So what?? What does that have to do with the actual debate? The actual debate is about if the 4 handicap is comparable to a lower level LPGA player. No he's not comparable. Even if he's a traveling tournament only 4 handicap, he's still 5-6 shots worse per round than the girls that can't pay the bills. So again, he's not comparable.

 

It's math! Not opinion.

 

Excellent; thanks!

[dhc1]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

 

We could start a another entire 30 page thread on the flaws of the handicap system. Don't think it translates here especially since the actual handicaps of the LPGA players would be an unknown. My opinion is based almost entirely on what I've seen playing with actual LPGA players.

 

Your opinion isn't quantifiable. Either is mine. That's why we use math and have the handicap system. So we don't have to compare our opinions. Its actually quite easy to figure out the LPGA players handicaps. In fact, we did it thoroughly earlier in this VERY THREAD! Lol! All of their scores are listed on the website and all of the course rating/slope are easily found on the internet. So that's what we did.

 

The 75-100 ranked players are between +1and +2 and the top players in the world are just under +5. That's using only the mens ratings so it's an apples to apples comparison.

 

Again, the discussion of the thread evolved into the likely-hood of a 4 being competitive at the LPGA level. Not could he beat her one time over a 3 hole stretch or over 9 holes or one single round.

 

Who cares AT ALL about a one off?? a 4 handicap makes literally 0 cuts on the LPGA Tour and makes literally $0 money. That means that he's not comparable. End of story. The women that are barely keeping their card are literally 24 shots better on average over a 4 round event than the 4 male.

Why are you focusing solely on the idea of "Can?" Because it's in the title? "Can" you win the powerball? "Can" you get struck by lightening? The point is you're not going to invest your life saving on one or stay inside because of the other.

 

Like I said 10 pages or so ago: How much money would you put up and at what odds? I agree that the guy has a chance of beating the worst players on tour over 18 holes if everything lines up just perfectly for him and poorly for her. So what?? What does that have to do with the actual debate? The actual debate is about if the 4 handicap is comparable to a lower level LPGA player. No he's not comparable. Even if he's a traveling tournament only 4 handicap, he's still 5-6 shots worse per round than the girls that can't pay the bills. So again, he's not comparable.

 

It's math! Not opinion.

 

I'll ask the question again: can we confirm that the tee boxes actually played at LPGA tourneys are equal to the standard men's tees? If so, the math works. If they play from more forward tees, the men's rating could be substantially lower (in the high sixties) and that would make a four more likely to shoot mid 70s.

 

For example at the 2014 us open, it looks like the ladies played from somewhere between the green and white tee boxes according to the yardages in this article (http://www.pinehurst.com/golf/tournaments/2014-u-s-womens-open-championship/ and the "241-yard, par-4 13th hole", among others). The white tees are rated 70.7 and the greens are rated 68.2 for a par 72.

 

I'd be interested to see what the handicaps of the women's would be if we used the appropriate tee box. I'd guess somewhere between a +1 to scratch index. Which by the way, beats a four 4/5 times....

[Shilgy]

How often is a 4 handicap male player playing par 4s with yardages of 301, 319 and 315 along with par 5s measuring only 492 and 477 all in the same round. Give 4 handicap players some credit. A lot of them are going to score very well at those yardages.

 

I would say very often . Do you not have golf courses with Teeboxs between 63 and 6600 yards in your area?

 

or are you implying that all 4handicaps only play the tips?

 

I hate to break it to you, but a 4 handicap is still a four handicap if they play from 5900 yards or 7400 yards.

 

I'm really trying to understand here . Is it your belief that a four handicap who regularly plays at 7000 yards will be less than a four handicap if he starts playing at 6000 yards ?

 

We could start a another entire 30 page thread on the flaws of the handicap system. Don't think it translates here especially since the actual handicaps of the LPGA players would be an unknown. My opinion is based almost entirely on what I've seen playing with actual LPGA players.

 

Your opinion isn't quantifiable. Either is mine. That's why we use math and have the handicap system. So we don't have to compare our opinions. Its actually quite easy to figure out the LPGA players handicaps. In fact, we did it thoroughly earlier in this VERY THREAD! Lol! All of their scores are listed on the website and all of the course rating/slope are easily found on the internet. So that's what we did.

 

The 75-100 ranked players are between +1and +2 and the top players in the world are just under +5. That's using only the mens ratings so it's an apples to apples comparison.

 

Again, the discussion of the thread evolved into the likely-hood of a 4 being competitive at the LPGA level. Not could he beat her one time over a 3 hole stretch or over 9 holes or one single round.

 

Who cares AT ALL about a one off?? a 4 handicap makes literally 0 cuts on the LPGA Tour and makes literally $0 money. That means that he's not comparable. End of story. The women that are barely keeping their card are literally 24 shots better on average over a 4 round event than the 4 male.

Why are you focusing solely on the idea of "Can?" Because it's in the title? "Can" you win the powerball? "Can" you get struck by lightening? The point is you're not going to invest your life saving on one or stay inside because of the other.

 

Like I said 10 pages or so ago: How much money would you put up and at what odds? I agree that the guy has a chance of beating the worst players on tour over 18 holes if everything lines up just perfectly for him and poorly for her. So what?? What does that have to do with the actual debate? The actual debate is about if the 4 handicap is comparable to a lower level LPGA player. No he's not comparable. Even if he's a traveling tournament only 4 handicap, he's still 5-6 shots worse per round than the girls that can't pay the bills. So again, he's not comparable.

 

It's math! Not opinion.

 

I'll ask the question again: can we confirm that the tee boxes actually played at LPGA tourneys are equal to the standard men's tees? If so, the math works. If they play from more forward tees, the men's rating could be substantially lower (in the high sixties) and that would make a four more likely to shoot mid 70s.

 

For example at the 2014 us open, it looks like the ladies played from somewhere between the green and white tee boxes according to the yardages in this article (http://www.pinehurst...n-championship/ and the "241-yard, par-4 13th hole", among others). The white tees are rated 70.7 and the greens are rated 68.2 for a par 72.

 

I'd be interested to see what the handicaps of the women's would be if we used the appropriate tee box. I'd guess somewhere between a +1 to scratch index. Which by the way, beats a four 4/5 times....

USGA did the same in the mens event. The 17th was played from the whites and the 18th was played closer to the blues. Overall it was between the white and blue-not white and green. "161-yard, par-3 17th and 391-yard, par-4 18th"

[farmer]

I keep getting sucked into this thread, but Isaac has closed the book to any reasonable person. As an aside, a friend of mine years ago played the Colonial Pro=Am with Jim Colbert and beat him on the front nine, 36 to 37. However, on every hole, Colbert's own shots were an afterthought for him. He gave yardages and lines to each player, read putts, posed for pictures, gave tips, told stories, joked around, was actually just "playing" golf. Did all the same stuff on the back, shot 33, my friend shot 41.

[WidespreadPanic]

I would pay to witness a 4hc who think he could beat a bottom level LPGA pro go head to head with one. Seeing the dejection on his face and overall embarrassment would be fantastic.

[SurfDuffer]

Once again we have someone confused by the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming a 4 handicap is a better golfer but that golfer can win a certain percentage of rounds depending on the players and the course. What that percentage is depends......... could be 20% or it could be 2%.

[Shilgy]

Once again we have someone confused by the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming a 4 handicap is a better golfer but that golfer can win a certain percentage of rounds depending on the players and the course. What that percentage is depends......... could be 20% or it could be 2%.

See Isaac's post about six or seven posts up.

[isaacbm]

I keep getting sucked into this thread, but Isaac has closed the book to any reasonable person. As an aside, a friend of mine years ago played the Colonial Pro=Am with Jim Colbert and beat him on the front nine, 36 to 37. However, on every hole, Colbert's own shots were an afterthought for him. He gave yardages and lines to each player, read putts, posed for pictures, gave tips, told stories, joked around, was actually just "playing" golf. Did all the same stuff on the back, shot 33, my friend shot 41.

I played with Colbert in Palm Springs a few years back. He was a treat. Really understood where the paycheck is actually coming from.

Hint: Birdies and 65's mean nothing without the support of the fans. Very genuine person.

[isaacbm]

Once again we have someone confused by the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming a 4 handicap is a better golfer but that golfer can win a certain percentage of rounds depending on the players and the course. What that percentage is depends......... could be 20% or it could be 2%.

Ok, I submit. There's definitely more than one way to look at this thread. I personally chose to look at it in a way that if I'm standing on the first tee trying to set up a game, how would we stroke the players...

 

I've played probably 35 rounds with LPGA players. 25 of those with the same gal and every single time she plays from the tips and we play even on the first nine and adjust for the back depending who's ahead. I'm slightly up on her in all of our matches. SLIGHTLY. And I'm 8 shots better than a 4 handicap.

 

I'm officially done with this thread ( and some of you have told me I need to change my avatar!), though I will say that I'm happy that most of the debate was civil. Cheers!!

[Obee]

Once again we have someone confused by the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming a 4 handicap is a better golfer but that golfer can win a certain percentage of rounds depending on the players and the course. What that percentage is depends......... could be 20% or it could be 2%.

Ok, I submit. There's definitely more than one way to look at this thread. I personally chose to look at it in a way that if I'm standing on the first tee trying to set up a game, how would we stroke the players...

 

I've played probably 35 rounds with LPGA players. 25 of those with the same gal and every single time she plays from the tips and we play even on the first nine and adjust for the back depending who's ahead. I'm slightly up on her in all of our matches. SLIGHTLY. And I'm 8 shots better than a 4 handicap.

 

I'm officially done with this thread ( and some of you have told me I need to change my avatar!), though I will say that I'm happy that most of the debate was civil. Cheers!!

 

Yes, change your avatar!!

[nsxguy]

Once again we have someone confused by the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming a 4 handicap is a better golfer but that golfer can win a certain percentage of rounds depending on the players and the course. What that percentage is depends......... could be 20% or it could be 2%.

See Isaac's post about six or seven posts up.

 

You mean he guy that offered to bet $5,000 on the LPGA pro ? And offered, IIRC, ZERO odds.

 

Yeah, right, a straight up bet on something he considers at least a 20-1 shot, if not impossible ? What a sport !!!! :cheesy:

 

The guy that just said "It's math, not opinion" ? When he didn't even make an attempt at math ? That guy ? :dntknw:

[Shilgy]

Max, that's kind of the point. A few post up someone mentioned a friend beating Jim Colbert for 9 holes. So I guess a 4 can beat a tour pro? Start a thread? For 9 holes a 4 could play well and shoot even and the pro shoot one over. What does that price s Isaac mentioned. A one off fluke means nothing. Play 4 rounds like an event or even play a season like Isaac mentioned. Does the 4 maker even a single cut?

 

Edit, my head's getting sure from beating it against the wall. Peace out. :)