Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[Soloman1]

I didn't say you were on drugs or sexist. You said you had enough of this thread.

 

I'm going to go on the side saying long courses get easier for an accurate, tournament experienced player with a tour short game. A 4 doesn't have anything near a tour-level short game.

 

You waved away the math of the odds of a 4 handicap shooting an "exceptional round" as if you simply know more than the long-held understanding of the odds that are based on empirical data. Instead, you want to use your own anecdotal information and what... your "feeling" that the odds are wrong?

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I didn't say you were on drugs or sexist.

 

He didn't say you did.

[Soloman1]

"I've NEVER seen a course rating that is lower from a shorter tee set. Distance is the #1 obstacle to scoring."

 

A rising tide lifts all boats.

The longer the course, the more short game determines the winner.

 

Hey, call me stupid, but I thought the premise of this thread was the question if a 4 handicap man can walk out to a golf course any time and go beat an LPGA Tour player straight up. Hell, the average 4 today would pass out after walking nine holes. ?

[oikos1]

5 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer bragged about his karate training and and it turns out he is beating up on a bunch of kids.  Why would a man want to compete with a woman?  You’d almost have to let her win.  Why would you even think about such a thing?

 

But, since you asked, the generic man low handicapper would be handicapped by having to actually play by the rules and fold under the pressure anyway.

 

[nsxguy]

17 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

"I've NEVER seen a course rating that is lower from a shorter tee set. Distance is the #1 obstacle to scoring."

 

A rising tide lifts all boats.

The longer the course, the more short game determines the winner.

 

Hey, call me stupid, but I thought the premise of this thread was the question if a 4 handicap man can walk out to a golf course any time and go beat an LPGA Tour player straight up. Hell, the average 4 today would pass out after walking nine holes. ?

 

 

Firstly I would never call you stupid.

 

Secondly, one frames one's answer based on what answer suits them, no ? Absolutely short game matters. Or adds another variable - who said anything about walking ? Not sure anyone capable of hitting it 300 and playing from 7400 would have any trouble walking the golf course - but hey, who knows ?

 

Finally (you're welcome BTW ), the thread was started 11 YEARS ago. Things change, no ? The premise of this particular match has morphed MANY times, the latest(?) being a 4 handicap male who hits it 300 off the tee at 7400 yards vs. a shorter hitting, lower ranked(?) LPGA player from the same distance.

 

Put the average 4 'capper, withe a reasonably well-rounded game 300 yards off the tee, in the fairway, or even in playable/reasonable rough, with a LW through 8 iron and maybe an occasional 5-7 iron, where the lady is hitting her longest hybrids all day and I think it could be very competitive.

 

Never mind my being able to reach par 5s in 2 with a 5 iron that she can't reach in 2. And that 226(?) yard island green at East Lake. 5 or 6 iron into a slight breeze to a green the lady may not be able to even reach.

 

That said, a lot would likely depend on the course itself, set up, "nerves", etc.

 

But I think it's definitely doable (NOT easy) for the loooooong 4 'capper. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

[farmer]

NSX, if you take 100 legit 4 hdcp club players and put them on that 225 yd hole, over water, how many do you think hit the green?  I would give you five dollars for each one if you'll give me a dollar for every one of them who misses the green.  You have to give me two dollars for each ball in the water.  If I'm not mistaken, that is the hole that Phil identified as defining the worst of modern golf architecture.

Edited September 11, 2020 by farmer

[Red4282]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

"I've NEVER seen a course rating that is lower from a shorter tee set. Distance is the #1 obstacle to scoring."

 

A rising tide lifts all boats.

The longer the course, the more short game determines the winner.

 

Hey, call me stupid, but I thought the premise of this thread was the question if a 4 handicap man can walk out to a golf course any time and go beat an LPGA Tour player straight up. Hell, the average 4 today would pass out after walking nine holes. ?

Look this isnt directly aimed at you, but you need to follow lou stagner and scott fawcett. The data analytics they do is great, and they would tell you that is absolutely not true. Distance is KING. Period. 
 

Now let me transition to something else: i was mocked for not knowing much about handicaps and i even doubled down about how i think they are stupid. Let me break that down because there are ALOT of people here that think a 4 is a 4 period, and that is flawed thinking.

The one thing that is true, is all 4 caps have flaws in their game. But that doesnt make them the same or static.

In a perfect world, we establish our handicaps on all types of golf courses, 6200,7400. Flat greens, undulating greens. Bermuda greens, bent greens. Tight tree lined courses, open links style courses. Bunker heavy courses, bunkerless courses. You get the point. But this doesnt happen for 95% of us. Most of us play a home course and maybe one or two laced in, so basically its established at your home course. It works because you usually use it on your home course against your buddies who also established it on your home course. If your home course  Is short, and you are a short hitter, the flaw in your game is being masked. If you are long, but a terrible wedge player from 30-75 yards (ive seen it, player will be scratch off the tee and approaches over 100, but ultimately chunk a partial wedge in the water or thin one over and OB), your flaws are being exposed. Switch it to a long course and it flips. 
Technically, if a home course masks your flaw, your cap is effectively higher than it probably would be outside your home course. If it exposes your weakness its possible your cap is better outside your home course.
 

Another example is even tho Im a +0.3, when I play bermuda greens, Im terrible on them. Easily 3-4 handicap on those courses. 
 

Or the guy that established his cap on a bunkerless muni and is not a good bunker player, then plays something with bunkers everywhere. 
 

There are some 4 caps who are just awful at course management l, firing at pins they have no business in. Give em a caddy, (cause u know an lpga pro has one) and look out.

 

Bottom line is hitting it 230-240 off the tee Is tremendous disadvantage on longer courses. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Red4282

[nsxguy]

34 minutes ago, farmer said:

NSX, if you take 100 legit 4 hdcp club players and put them on that 225 yd hole, over water, how many do you think hit the green?  I would give you five dollars for each one if you'll give me a dollar for every one of them who misses the green.  You have to give me two dollars for each ball in the water.  If I'm not mistaken, that is the hole that Phil identified as defining the worst of modern golf architecture.

 

A "4" that can hit their drives 300 yards regularly ?

 

I'd take the bet. Except for the "in the water" part.

 

Miss the green vs. in the water ? What a sport you are !!! There's 1 bunker off the left side that covers maybe 40 degrees of the 360* "circumference" of the island and the rest of the misses are pretty much guaranteed to be in the water.

 

 

BTW, you might want to use the QUOTE button. That way the person you quote will be notified. Otherwise they may miss it.

Edited September 11, 2020 by nsxguy

[farmer]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

A "4" that can hit their drives 300 yards regularly ?

 

I'd take the bet. Except for the "in the water" part.

 

Miss the green vs. in the water ? What a sport you are !!! There's 1 bunker off the left side that covers maybe 40 degrees of the 360* "circumference" of the island and the rest of the misses are pretty much guaranteed to be in the water.

 

 

BTW, you might want to use the QUOTE button. That way the person you quote will be notified. Otherwise they may miss it.

You would owe me money either way.  OK, even odds on balls in the water.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Look this isnt directly aimed at you, but you need to follow lou stagner and scott fawcett. The data analytics they do is great, and they would tell you that is absolutely not true. Distance is KING. Period. 
 

Now let me transition to something else: i was mocked for not knowing much about handicaps and i even doubled down about how i think they are stupid. Let me break that down because there are ALOT of people here that think a 4 is a 4 period, and that is flawed thinking.

The one thing that is true, is all 4 caps have flaws in their game. But that doesnt make them the same or static.

In a perfect world, we establish our handicaps on all types of golf courses, 6200,7400. Flat greens, undulating greens. Bermuda greens, bent greens. Tight tree lined courses, open links style courses. Bunker heavy courses, bunkerless courses. You get the point. But this doesnt happen for 95% of us. Most of us play a home course and maybe one or two laced in, so basically its established at your home course. It works because you usually use it on your home course against your buddies who also established it on your home course. If your home course  Is short, and you are a short hitter, the flaw in your game is being masked. If you are long, but a terrible wedge player from 30-75 yards (ive seen it, player will be scratch off the tee and approaches over 100, but ultimately chunk a partial wedge in the water or thin one over and OB), your flaws are being exposed. Switch it to a long course and it flips. 
Technically, if a home course masks your flaw, your cap is effectively higher than it probably would be outside your home course. If it exposes your weakness its possible your cap is better outside your home course.
 

Another example is even tho Im a +0.3, when I play bermuda greens, Im terrible on them. Easily 3-4 handicap on those courses. 
 

Or the guy that established his cap on a bunkerless muni and is not a good bunker player, then plays something with bunkers everywhere. 
 

There are some 4 caps who are just awful at course management l, firing at pins they have no business in. Give em a caddy, (cause u know an lpga pro has one) and look out.

 

Bottom line is hitting it 230-240 off the tee Is tremendous disadvantage on longer courses. 

In my opinion you read those posts the wrong way. Yes, distance is king. To a point. But who will be exposed, as you put it, by a long course? The four handicap or the tour tested lady pro? Your 7400 yard course will have a course rating of what? 74-76 I would guess. So the 4 capper will average 81-83 on from those tees. He will shoot 78-80(range is based on course rating remember) about just 20% of the time. The lady pro is not going to see her scoring average jump 9 shots just because she moved back 800 yards. 
So anecdotally “can” the 4 beat the lady? Yes, once in a blue moon. Or less.  Will it be anywhere close to a regular thing? From any distance? Heck no.

Look at the ANA being played this week. From 6800 yards and a course rating of 73.1 the worst score in round one, by a player who wd’d due to injury, was +8. Which is exactly the score the 4 should average. 99 of the 103 players shot scores that the 4 would shoot 20% of the time-or less in the case of most. And that is with nasty lose your ball Bermuda rough.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, farmer said:

NSX, if you take 100 legit 4 hdcp club players and put them on that 225 yd hole, over water, how many do you think hit the green?  I would give you five dollars for each one if you'll give me a dollar for every one of them who misses the green.  You have to give me two dollars for each ball in the water.  If I'm not mistaken, that is the hole that Phil identified as defining the worst of modern golf architecture.

 

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

A "4" that can hit their drives 300 yards regularly ?

 

I'd take the bet. Except for the "in the water" part.

 

Miss the green vs. in the water ? What a sport you are !!! There's 1 bunker off the left side that covers maybe 40 degrees of the 360* "circumference" of the island and the rest of the misses are pretty much guaranteed to be in the water.

 

 

2 hours ago, farmer said:

You would owe me money either way.  OK, even odds on balls in the water.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on there young feller.

 

You offered 5-1 and I said "Yes". NOW you offer "even odds".

 

I may have been born at night,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but it wasn't LAST night,,,,,,,,,,,,, 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

In my opinion you read those posts the wrong way. Yes, distance is king. To a point. But who will be exposed, as you put it, by a long course? The four handicap or the tour tested lady pro? Your 7400 yard course will have a course rating of what? 74-76 I would guess. So the 4 capper will average 81-83 on from those tees. He will shoot 78-80(range is based on course rating remember) about just 20% of the time. The lady pro is not going to see her scoring average jump 9 shots just because she moved back 800 yards. 
So anecdotally “can” the 4 beat the lady? Yes, once in a blue moon. Or less.  Will it be anywhere close to a regular thing? From any distance? Heck no.

Look at the ANA being played this week. From 6800 yards and a course rating of 73.1 the worst score in round one, by a player who wd’d due to injury, was +8. Which is exactly the score the 4 should average. 99 of the 103 players shot scores that the 4 would shoot 20% of the time-or less in the case of most. And that is with nasty lose your ball Bermuda rough.

A male 4 under the same conditions would likely not shoot his handicap?

[Soloman1]

73. 0 rating with 135 slope would mean a 4 handicap would play to a 6 on that course.

[pinhigh27]

20 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Firstly I would never call you stupid.

 

Secondly, one frames one's answer based on what answer suits them, no ? Absolutely short game matters. Or adds another variable - who said anything about walking ? Not sure anyone capable of hitting it 300 and playing from 7400 would have any trouble walking the golf course - but hey, who knows ?

 

Finally (you're welcome BTW ), the thread was started 11 YEARS ago. Things change, no ? The premise of this particular match has morphed MANY times, the latest(?) being a 4 handicap male who hits it 300 off the tee at 7400 yards vs. a shorter hitting, lower ranked(?) LPGA player from the same distance.

 

Put the average 4 'capper, withe a reasonably well-rounded game 300 yards off the tee, in the fairway, or even in playable/reasonable rough, with a LW through 8 iron and maybe an occasional 5-7 iron, where the lady is hitting her longest hybrids all day and I think it could be very competitive.

 

Never mind my being able to reach par 5s in 2 with a 5 iron that she can't reach in 2. And that 226(?) yard island green at East Lake. 5 or 6 iron into a slight breeze to a green the lady may not be able to even reach.

 

That said, a lot would likely depend on the course itself, set up, "nerves", etc.

 

But I think it's definitely doable (NOT easy) for the loooooong 4 'capper. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

The 4 handicaps that you know must be better than the ones I play with. 

 

I haven't met the mythical 4 handicapper who hits it 300 off tee accurately, is hitting multiple par 5s in two and could hit a green from 225 over water with any regularity. They must have the worst short game in the history of the world. 

 

5 or 6 iron from 226? That's hilarious. 

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, pinhigh27 said:

The 4 handicaps that you know must be better than the ones I play with. 

 

I haven't met the mythical 4 handicapper who hits it 300 off tee accurately, is hitting multiple par 5s in two and could hit a green from 225 over water with any regularity. They must have the worst short game in the history of the world.

 

5 or 6 iron from 226? That's hilarious. 

 

I don't know any 4 cappers that hit it 300. And who said anything about "regularly" ? I'm not suggesting this particular 4 handicapper would beat the LPGA member all the time, or even regularly, but that's not the point of the thread, is it ?

 

Pros hit it 300 regularly. Did you watch them play at East Lake ? 5, 6, or 7 irons to the island green. 226 IIRC on Day 4.

 

As for the rest, we're all entitled to our opinions,,,,,,,,,,, and given the latest(?) "terms", that's mine.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[pinhigh27]

They are pros. Not 4 handicaps. There is a world of difference in their games. Two different games for all intents and purposes. 

 

What percentage of 4 handicaps could hit a 5 iron onto that green? It's probably less than 1 in 1000. 

 

I didn't see the coverage but it must have been downwind. Very few people, tour players included are hitting 7 iron from a 226 shot in normal conditions and landing the ball anywhere near the hole. 

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

They are pros. Not 4 handicaps. There is a world of difference in their games. Two different games for all intents and purposes. 

 

What percentage of 4 handicaps could hit a 5 iron onto that green? It's probably less than 1 in 1000. 

 

I didn't see the coverage but it must have been downwind. Very few people, tour players included are hitting 7 iron from a 226 shot in normal conditions and landing the ball anywhere near the hole. 

 

226 is referring to the length they can hit it. That is a VERY large green. How many times a 4 would hit the green out of 1,000 I wouldn't even venture to guess.

 

As they often say in SE Asia, "Up to you" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Red4282]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

73. 0 rating with 135 slope would mean a 4 handicap would play to a 6 on that course.

Do they know a golfers weakness or strength when they make these ratings or is it just a generalized estimate? 

[Red4282]

32 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

The 4 handicaps that you know must be better than the ones I play with. 

 

I haven't met the mythical 4 handicapper who hits it 300 off tee accurately, is hitting multiple par 5s in two and could hit a green from 225 over water with any regularity. They must have the worst short game in the history of the world. 

 

5 or 6 iron from 226? That's hilarious. 

Ah cause you dont know any, means its true....?

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

73. 0 rating with 135 slope would mean a 4 handicap would play to a 6 on that course.

 

Ummmmm, excuse me but,,,,,,,,, Whaaaaaat ? 

Edited September 12, 2020 by nsxguy

[pinhigh27]

13 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Ah cause you dont know any, means its true....?

The point is if someone was capable of doing this , they wouldn’t be a 4. It’s just like the age old golfwrx 10 handicap who is a good ball striker but can’t putt. 
 

if one was a good ball striker they wouldn’t be a 10 handicap. If someone was an awesome driver of the ball and hitting it 300 they wouldn’t be a 4. Someone who is a 4 and hits it 300 is gonna spray the crap out of it. 

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

The point is if someone was capable of doing this , they wouldn’t be a 4. It’s just like the age old golfwrx 10 handicap who is a good ball striker but can’t putt. 
 

if one was a good ball striker they wouldn’t be a 10 handicap. If someone was an awesome driver of the ball and hitting it 300 they wouldn’t be a 4. Someone who is a 4 and hits it 300 is gonna spray the crap out of it. 

 

Hyperbole much ? Somebody who "sprays the crap out of it" won't BE a 4.

[glk]

21 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Ummmmm, excuse me but,,,,,,,,, Whaaaaaat ? 

There is a handicap index and a course handicap.   
 

4x(135/113)+(73-72).  Or use the USGA calculator.   Btw a 4 index on a 7400 yard courese is going to have 9 or greater course handicap.  And to have a 4 index from say a 7400 76/144 course one would have to have 8 lowest scores average 81 and most certainly would overall avg somewhere 84+ For their 20.      And they would be given a course cap of 9.   Index and course cap are not one and the same.  

Edited September 12, 2020 by glk

[ThinkingPlus]

38 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Do they know a golfers weakness or strength when they make these ratings or is it just a generalized estimate? 

Course rating and slope is determined by a team of folks trained by the USGA to perform the task per a set of guidelines that are compliant with the handicapping system.  The teams are regionally based.  The course ratings for each gender are based on the descriptive capabilities of men and women scratch players defined by the USGA.  Course ratings are primarily determined by the effective distance that the course plays which includes actual distance and impacts such as forced layups.  Slope is determined based on course features that impact bogey players as defined by the USGA.  This is where forced carries, bunkers, penalty areas, fairway width, etc... are taken into account.  While there can be situations where certain courses "fit" a player better than others which results in lower differentials for that player at that course for their handicap, in general those situations are somewhat rare.  On average the ratings and slope work pretty well at identifying the playing ability of most golfers.  Unicorns are always problematic and should really be excluded from this discussion.

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, glk said:

There is a handicap index and a course handicap.   
 

4x(135/113)+(73-72).  Or use the USGA calculator.   Btw a 4 index on a 7400 yard courese is going to have 9 or greater course handicap.  And to have a 4 index from say a 7400 76/144 course one would have to have 8 lowest scores average 81 and most certainly would overall avg somewhere 84+ For their 20.      And they would be given a course cap of 9.   Index and course cap are not one and the same.  

 

All true but he didn't mention what par is. If it was 70 the guy would have a CH of 8.

 

Personally, when I hear someone say he "plays to a 6" or otherwise reference how they play they are most often referring to their Handicap INDEX, not their course handicap. Primarily because their index is a FIXED number. Course Handicap is irrelevant - nobody knows what course or tee set the person is referring to.

 

If I ask somebody how they play they don't tell me 3 from the Senior tees, 5 from the whites, 7 from the Blues. They tell me they're a "6", or maybe 6.3; their index.

 

And even in the example quoted, if the guy had a differential of 4 after a round of net even par (72 ) with that CH of 6, he'd still be "playing to a 4" (Index), not a 6.

 

[Red4282]

49 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

The point is if someone was capable of doing this , they wouldn’t be a 4. It’s just like the age old golfwrx 10 handicap who is a good ball striker but can’t putt. 
 

if one was a good ball striker they wouldn’t be a 10 handicap. If someone was an awesome driver of the ball and hitting it 300 they wouldn’t be a 4. Someone who is a 4 and hits it 300 is gonna spray the crap out of it. 

I just explained in this thread there are a multitude of ways to get to a 4... and u listed a few, but there are many others. If a golfers flaws are masked, and an lpga pros flaws are exposed... (being short) then handicaps are thrown out the window... 

 

let me out it in simpler terms. Golf is a tricky game because it skill can overcome athletic ability (speed/power/strength/size). Men are genetically bigger stronger faster. But every data point in recent history shows that the longer you are, the more advantage you have. Period. Thats all Im saying. A short LPGA pro would have a tough(er) time with a long male, especially if the course is set up for it. 

[Red4282]

23 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Course rating and slope is determined by a team of folks trained by the USGA to perform the task per a set of guidelines that are compliant with the handicapping system.  The teams are regionally based.  The course ratings for each gender are based on the descriptive capabilities of men and women scratch players defined by the USGA.  Course ratings are primarily determined by the effective distance that the course plays which includes actual distance and impacts such as forced layups.  Slope is determined based on course features that impact bogey players as defined by the USGA.  This is where forced carries, bunkers, penalty areas, fairway width, etc... are taken into account.  While there can be situations where certain courses "fit" a player better than others which results in lower differentials for that player at that course for their handicap, in general those situations are somewhat rare.  On average the ratings and slope work pretty well at identifying the playing ability of most golfers.  Unicorns are always problematic and should really be excluded from this discussion.

Not so rare. When most golfers establish their whole handicap on one course, its a flawed system.

[pinhigh27]

9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

I just explained in this thread there are a multitude of ways to get to a 4... and u listed a few, but there are many others. If a golfers flaws are masked, and an lpga pros flaws are exposed... (being short) then handicaps are thrown out the window... 

 

let me out it in simpler terms. Golf is a tricky game because it skill can overcome athletic ability (speed/power/strength/size). Men are genetically bigger stronger faster. But every data point in recent history shows that the longer you are, the more advantage you have. Period. Thats all Im saying. A short LPGA pro would have a tough(er) time with a long male, especially if the course is set up for it. 

 

I agree longer is better. so someone that hits it 300 as a 4 handicap probably really sucks at other aspects of the game, or they wouldn't be a 4 handicap. 

 

 

[Soloman1]

Some of y’all could use some study time on the handicap system...

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hyperbole much ? Somebody who "sprays the crap out of it" won't BE a 4.

Completely disagree, I guess it's dependent on what spraying it means to you. I would say most people who hit it 300 yards and aren't + handicaps are spraying it, ie they're probably behind trees and punching it up to the green almost as often as they have a clear shot. The strokes gained from hitting it that far and being accurate would be huge and the person wouldn't be a 4.