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So I'm playing a blended set of Nike irons which I like. I haven't been playing as much as I used too and have more shaky days then balls on days. I'm a 4 handicap and have been considering the move to more of a "game improvement" set for a while now. Who else with a low handicap has done this and what are your thoughts. I don't think it could hurt but I want to hear some educated pros and cons.

 

I'm thinking about something like the Mizuno MP52's or the new 2009 Burners.

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There are a bunch of threads about this and you will get arguments on both sides, but I'm a 3 and use Wilson Ci6's and have zero interest in hitting irons that would be considered "player's irons".

Personally I like knowing that my mis-hits will fly 5 yards short instead of 10, which means that if I'm aiming at the center of the green I'm still putting while a player's club mis-hit would land short.

My regular Sunday game is comprised of 12-16 players, all of which but 2 are single digits and all but 2 of them are under 4. Of those players I think there are 2 that use irons that not be considered GI irons.

BTW, my clubmaker who places very well in a number of local amateur tournaments just switched to the 09 Burners and he absolutely swears by them.

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I think that as long as you can feel confident and comfortable with the feel and look of the clubs while you are addressing the ball is the most important. That is the one aspect that cannot be overlooked for me, personally.

I would love to hit a more game improvement iron some days when my swing is a little off, but they just do not look as good to me at address, and therefore I do not put a great swing on them, in general.

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I haven't thought of going back. 6 years ago I was playing wilson fatshafts and killing them, and since then I've progressively went more players. First hogan apex pro's, then cobra ss forged, and now mac pro's.

First of all, I love the feel of good solid forged clubs. The feel is unparalleled. It makes the game more enjoyable for me to be able to hit those sweet pure shots. The feedback they offer is great. The soles are also skinnier which allows greater playability. There is no way I would want oversized clubs in my bag right now.

With that being said, it's worth a shot if you aren't playing as much and can't hit the ball as solid anymore. Golf is certainly not fun with players clubs when you can't hit them solid.

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I just went the opposite direction. I went from Ping i10's to Miura 201's and now going to LE Miura blades. Will I go back at some point yes, but it is teaching me about my swing, and I am getting good feed back. I think once you have played a blade or a players iron, you can do what ever you want. However I do feel it is important to learn from them at some point in your golf game.

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Rocco plays tour issue, with his own specs and sole grind. Nothing to do with the retail version.

Back to topic.

If the weak part of your game is the iron play, maybe. I followed 3 years ago also the GI hype, with bad results. My experiment last only 2 month. To big, less feedback and the sole grind does´nt fit my swing. It was pretty hard to work with the ball. And the forgiveness? I don´t think a real low hcper
hits all over the blade. And a thin shot or open/closed face is the same with all irons.

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[quote name='hmx3' post='1846191' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:07 PM']Rocco plays tour issue, with his own specs and sole grind. Nothing to do with the retail version.

Back to topic.

If the weak part of your game is the iron play, maybe. I followed 3 years ago also the GI hype, with bad results. My experiment last only 2 month. To big, less feedback and the sole grind does´nt fit my swing. It was pretty hard to work with the ball. [b]And the forgiveness? I don´t think a real low hcper
hits all over the blade. And a thin shot or open/closed face is the same with all irons[/b].[/quote]

We can agree to disagree on that. A mis-hit with a forged blade is not going to fly as far (or as straight) as a GI club regardless if professional or 30 handicap is swinging the club.

At my course there are a number of holes with forced carries to the green (either bunkers or hazards) and I during the very brief honeymoon of hitting the W/S Pi5's, I was hitting more bunker shots and/or taking penalty shots for being in the hazard on mis-hits than I ever did with my Ci6's. My handicap rose 2 strokes during that period and went right back down as soon as I switched back.

For me, I don't need to "feel or hear" feedback from my irons. The best feedback I can get is visually seeing my ball end up near my target (that said I absolutely can tell as soon as I've made a bad swing or not). And, personally I don't have any issues with working the ball (assuming I'm swinging well of course :)).

But, as mentioned by others, to each his/her own. Play whatever gives you the most confidence. If you are the most confident playing a small blade, go for it. If you are more confident with a shovel then play that.

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[quote name='ezra76' post='1846253' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:31 PM']Game Improvement irons + Low handicap= a lot of very high shots, having to deal with the new issue of the face being more shut to target at impact than you are used to, limited control over trajectory, adjusting to [i]way[/i] longer yardages, adjusting to your new wedge (cause you'll need another now that your PW goes 155).[/quote]

That's a pretty generic statement that may not in fact apply to all golfers.

High shots: Assuming that it is true for all players, what's wrong with hitting very high shots, especially with the longer clubs? I don't have a problem at all knowing that a 3-iron will carry x yards with a high trajectory and then sits soft instead of low trajectory that then runs out.

Face being more shut: Worse case, have the clubs bent open a degree if it's that much of an issue or find a GI iron with little offset.

Limited control over trajectory: Can't say I personally agree with you. As I initially posted, most of the players in my game hit GI irons and each can control trajectory with little problem, even one player who is hitting SGI clubs.

Adjusting to way longer yardages: Again, can't agree with you. With my normal swing I hit my Ci6 9-iron 150 yards and a Pi5 145. Hardly "way longer".

Adjusting to your new wedge: You must be a lot longer than most players if you hit a GI PW 155 yards. I hit PW 140 and added a 50* GW for 120-130 (54* for 100-120 and 60* for less than 100). Even if I was hitting the Pi5s (PW would be 135) I'd still have a GW.

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[quote name='hmx3' post='1846191' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:07 PM']Rocco plays tour issue, with his own specs and sole grind. Nothing to do with the retail version.

Back to topic.

If the weak part of your game is the iron play, maybe. I followed 3 years ago also the GI hype, with bad results. My experiment last only 2 month. To big, less feedback and the sole grind does´nt fit my swing. It was pretty hard to work with the ball. And the forgiveness? I don´t think a real low hcper
hits all over the blade. And a thin shot or open/closed face is the same with all irons.[/quote]

Go on Youtube, type in Rocco Mediate X22, and watch him hold up an X22, and say he plays stock X22's.

With that said, I don't get people getting their drawers in a knot when you say you want to play GI clubs. Is your self esteem threatened if you don't have blades in the bag?? Play what you like, and don't be so judgemental. As far as "learning" from blades, B.S., you learn from making a correct swing, and if you can't tell a flush shot from a miss with a GOOD G.I. club, then your basic skills may need some work.

Sorry for the rant, just get tired of hearing the same crap over, & over.

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[quote name='luxman' post='1846306' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:48 PM'][quote name='ezra76' post='1846253' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:31 PM']Game Improvement irons + Low handicap= a lot of very high shots, having to deal with the new issue of the face being more shut to target at impact than you are used to, limited control over trajectory, adjusting to [i]way[/i] longer yardages, adjusting to your new wedge (cause you'll need another now that your PW goes 155).[/quote]

That's a pretty generic statement that may not in fact apply to all golfers.

High shots: Assuming that it is true for all players, what's wrong with hitting very high shots, especially with the longer clubs? I don't have a problem at all knowing that a 3-iron will carry x yards with a high trajectory and then sits soft instead of low trajectory that then runs out.

Face being more shut: Worse case, have the clubs bent open a degree if it's that much of an issue or find a GI iron with little offset.

Limited control over trajectory: Can't say I personally agree with you. As I initially posted, most of the players in my game hit GI irons and each can control trajectory with little problem, even one player who is hitting SGI clubs.

Adjusting to way longer yardages: Again, can't agree with you. With my normal swing I hit my Ci6 9-iron 150 yards and a Pi5 145. Hardly "way longer".

Adjusting to your new wedge: You must be a lot longer than most players if you hit a GI PW 155 yards. I hit PW 140 and added a 50* GW for 120-130 (54* for 100-120 and 60* for less than 100). Even if I was hitting the Pi5s (PW would be 135) I'd still have a GW.
[/quote]

I'm exaggerating a bit but not a whole lot. Again, like you said, does not apply to all golfers but I read it was "low handicappers". I'm thinking of the guys I play with that are off scratch or better I guess.

Anyway, high shots, GI's are always going to hit the ball higher, the COG is much lower. That's why they are "game improvement", the major improvements are to [i]not[/i] hit the ball fat (offset) and get the darn thing up in the air (COG). If you don't need that then it will hinder the ability to "not" get it.

Yardages, that's just the lofts. I hit my PW 120yds. and my 8i 140. If I grab a set of Slingshots the PW is almost as long as my 8i, no point in that.

As far as GI with low offset, there really isn't such an animal. Most GI's will have double the offset in a PW as a blade would in a 3i. There will be an adjustment to 5-6times the amount of offset you are used to.

So I'm not saying that I or anyone else couldn't play a GI, would just take some getting used to and some changes on both sides of the irons clubwise as well. If my PW is 44-45* I'm going to need 3 more wedges, for sure. If my 4i is 22*, that's now my 3i. The main reason I play what I play is because I can control the flight and keep the forgiveness.

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What tour players or others choose to play has nothing to do with what you choose. To even remotely think what others do has bearing on anything is questionable judgment. It's ridiculous because we're all different people, different histories, and physical abilities and strengths; not to mention get different thrills from various aspects of the game.

As for believing statements made online about what someone thinks they saw in some touring pros bag is an error in judgment. Tour players do not put off the rack clubs into play; they could very well buy them off the rack but from that point the majority are modified is many ways; none of which are identifiable by the average golfer either. They get them ground so some clubs have "x" bounce others "y", they have them weighted differently, sometimes 2-4 different shafts from LW- long iron and different shafts in every wood, and some are switched out per tournament. Swing weights vary; as do lofts and grooves, grip wraps; lie angles, offset and camber. The only sameness might be in the name Callaway X-20.

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[quote name='luxman' post='1846265' date='Jul 27 2009, 03:34 PM']At my course there are a number of holes with forced carries to the green (either bunkers or hazards) and I during the very brief honeymoon of hitting the W/S Pi5's, I was hitting more bunker shots and/or taking penalty shots for being in the hazard on mis-hits than I ever did with my Ci6's. My handicap rose 2 strokes during that period and went right back down as soon as I switched back.[/quote]

Not everybody is meant to hit players clubs. You have to be a very good ballstriker first and foremost to properly use them.

[quote]But, as mentioned by others, to each his/her own. Play whatever gives you the most confidence. If you are the most confident playing a small blade, go for it. If you are more confident with a shovel then play that.[/quote]

This is really the bottom line. Everyone is different so just play what makes you happy.

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I don't consider myself a low handicap at 5.4, but here's my take.....

I think anybody, including the pro's would benefit by playing GI irons because even they mishit shots.

I also distinguish between blades, "blades with cavities" , "player type GI irons" , GI irons and Super GI irons (90+mm blade length).

I'd love to get the forgiveness of the Super GI irons, except they just go WAY too high for me and spin like crazy.

I play what I consider a "players style" GI iron in the MX 200
(blade length is on short side at 85mm compared to some 90mm GI irons) , to me it has the best blend of launch and forgiveness, not too high, but also forgiving.

I take the same approach with all of my clubs, find the most forgiving club I can that doesn't go too high, and then put an X flex in it. Works for me because I have high SS and
I like to be aggressive. My only holdout is the driver, and i'm in the process of replacing that with something more forgiving.

I'm going to keep experimenting and try to find a true set of GI irons (blade length of 85-90mm) which don't go too high or spin too much, i'd love the extra forgiveness.

IMHO nobody should or will be playing true blades in 10 years.

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If you don't consider your 5.4 low - then what do you think of 1.2? I consider you a low index, because like many of us, you fluctuate some but stay under 6 index.

Anyways, I see no value in GI clubs because I don't hit off line shots very often; nor do I like really strong lofts like MX200's. I have hit those heads and they are very forgiving and soft. :lol: To me such forgiveness reminds me of playing a really open easy course. When it's that easy over time I get mentally lazy which in turns means I miss the nut more then hit it there for need the forgiveness.

If I miss hit a my 4i I loose 10yds, that's per club off carry distance; fortunately I don't do that often. For subject purposes my back up clubs which I played for a long time are MacGregor custom grind butter knife blades with almost -0- offset, weaker lofts and zippo camber front to back, toe to heal which keeps my ball striking on the nut.
IMO and those I know on tour, blades will be around for a long time because not every one seeks forgiveness over distance and control.

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To the original poster. the new GI clubs allow you to get the best of both worlds. Goto my profile and topics to Read my review on the 09 Burners with KBS tours.
I can hit ALL THE SHOTS with these clubs, but more importantly, like Luxman said above. I now have more birdie opportunities per round than before. thats all i am looking for.
Since I can't camp out at the range with a players cavity set, i have found golf to be fun again. is it cheatin' , maybe a little, but i am having fun shooting low scores. And I can always pull my persimmon woods and titliest blades out every now and again to play some "tough golf" LOL.

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[quote name='deep18' post='1845911' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:16 PM']So I'm playing a blended set of Nike irons which I like. I haven't been playing as much as I used too and have more shaky days then balls on days. I'm a 4 handicap and have been considering the move to more of a "game improvement" set for a while now. Who else with a low handicap has done this and what are your thoughts. I don't think it could hurt but I want to hear some educated pros and cons.

I'm thinking about something like the Mizuno MP52's or the new 2009 Burners.[/quote]

I'm in the same boat.  Don't have much opportunity to practice, and my playing time is reduced to 2-4 times a month.  Currently playing MP32's with PX5.5's.  I've played forged blades all my life and had thought that I'd never play cavity back/GI irons.  However I'm thinking about AP2's if I can pick up a used set, their forgiviness might be just what I need right now.


I was down to a 1.2 index but now floating around a 5 to 6.

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As a 4, you probably don't go around hitting a lot of fat shots but a wider sole can save you a bit if you are more of a sweeper and
you catch it a little fat.

I would say the best benefit would be on shots toward the toe. You can get a very nice result with a full perimeter weighted, cavity back
iron on these. I don't think the mp 52 will offer as much as the Burner.

That and shots high off the face. A full cavity back would help here too, I think.

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Whatever works, seriously.

I am a 3.2 index currently and tried some GI irons (Callway X12 pros) a couple years back and honestly couldn't hit them. Don't really know why but I couldn't and went to a bit more of a players club with the Adams Idea Pro and couldn't be happier .

I am pretty consistent with my distances, even mishits only go 2-5 yards shorter and I never feel like I am stripping it in the middle of the face

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[quote name='ezra76' post='1846360' date='Jul 27 2009, 04:07 PM']I'm exaggerating a bit but not a whole lot. Again, like you said, does not apply to all golfers but I read it was "low handicappers". I'm thinking of the guys I play with that are off scratch or better I guess.

Anyway, high shots, GI's are always going to hit the ball higher, the COG is much lower. That's why they are "game improvement", the major improvements are to [i]not[/i] hit the ball fat (offset) and get the darn thing up in the air (COG). If you don't need that then it will hinder the ability to "not" get it.

Yardages, that's just the lofts. I hit my PW 120yds. and my 8i 140. If I grab a set of Slingshots the PW is almost as long as my 8i, no point in that.

As far as GI with low offset, there really isn't such an animal. Most GI's will have double the offset in a PW as a blade would in a 3i. There will be an adjustment to 5-6times the amount of offset you are used to.

So I'm not saying that I or anyone else couldn't play a GI, would just take some getting used to and some changes on both sides of the irons clubwise as well. If my PW is 44-45* I'm going to need 3 more wedges, for sure. If my 4i is 22*, that's now my 3i. The main reason I play what I play is because I can control the flight and keep the forgiveness.[/quote]

Sorry, I thought a 3 handicap was considered a low handicapper.

Funny I thought getting the "darn thing in the air" was a good thing. Silly me, I like it when I'm 210 out and know that I can hit a high 3-iron that will sit soft. And, yes, if need be I can hit a low one as well.

This said I can only go by me and what you are saying is a gross exaggeration. As I posted above, the difference in distance between my Ci6 (juiced up GI lofts) and Pi5 (standard lofts) is around 5 yards with the short irons and 10 yards with the long irons (yes, the ballflight is lower with the Pi5s and I think that's a bad thing). Regardless if I was hitting the Ci6 or Pi5 I would still need a GW as my yardages with "stock" swings are

3i - 210 200
4i - 200 190
5i - 190 180
6i - 180 170
7i - 170 165
8i - 160 155
9i - 150 145
PW - 140 135

So, based on your distances it looks like you need an extra fairway wood or hybrid. Me, I need a GW.

Obviously I don't know your game as you don't know mine, but I would say that if you are truly as good of a ballstriker as you say you are, that you would have zero trouble controlling the trajectory or direction of a "players" GI, and, we can agree to disagree but I do think they exist.

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4-5 years ago, I was at my lowest at 2.3. I was playing TM S300 forged CBs. My swing deteriorated and over the next 2-3 years, by index ballooned to over 8. I switched out to the Cally X-20 Tours. My buddy who plays Mizuno MP30s laughed when he saw my new clubs. He made a face at the top line and said he wouldn't be able to game these. Well, my index has dropped to 5.0 over the last year and it will be lower next month as July was a good month. It did take me some time to get comfortable with the thick top line, but the added forgiveness was a godsend.

If you really like to work the ball and are good enough to do it consistently, then I can see how a player's iron could be beneficial. I am perfectly content to hit irons straight. For that reason, I see very little downside and huge benefits of going to a GI set.

The one issue with my current clubs is that I still have to carry a 4 iron because there is too great a gap between the 5 iron and 4 hybrid. I wouldn't mind a set with some stronger lofts so that a 5 iron plays more like my current 4. That would enable me to add a 50* gap wedge, which is the one gaping hole I have now. Something like the Burner 09s might be the ticket. I've never played a set of irons less than 5 years, but this could be the exception.

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[quote name='luxman' post='1846873' date='Jul 27 2009, 08:02 PM'][quote name='ezra76' post='1846360' date='Jul 27 2009, 04:07 PM']I'm exaggerating a bit but not a whole lot. Again, like you said, does not apply to all golfers but I read it was "low handicappers". I'm thinking of the guys I play with that are off scratch or better I guess.

Anyway, high shots, GI's are always going to hit the ball higher, the COG is much lower. That's why they are "game improvement", the major improvements are to [i]not[/i] hit the ball fat (offset) and get the darn thing up in the air (COG). If you don't need that then it will hinder the ability to "not" get it.

Yardages, that's just the lofts. I hit my PW 120yds. and my 8i 140. If I grab a set of Slingshots the PW is almost as long as my 8i, no point in that.

As far as GI with low offset, there really isn't such an animal. Most GI's will have double the offset in a PW as a blade would in a 3i. There will be an adjustment to 5-6times the amount of offset you are used to.

So I'm not saying that I or anyone else couldn't play a GI, would just take some getting used to and some changes on both sides of the irons clubwise as well. If my PW is 44-45* I'm going to need 3 more wedges, for sure. If my 4i is 22*, that's now my 3i. The main reason I play what I play is because I can control the flight and keep the forgiveness.[/quote]

Sorry, I thought a 3 handicap was considered a low handicapper.

Funny I thought getting the "darn thing in the air" was a good thing. Silly me, I like it when I'm 210 out and know that I can hit a high 3-iron that will sit soft. And, yes, if need be I can hit a low one as well.

This said I can only go by me and what you are saying is a gross exaggeration. As I posted above, the difference in distance between my Ci6 (juiced up GI lofts) and Pi5 (standard lofts) is around 5 yards with the short irons and 10 yards with the long irons (yes, the ballflight is lower with the Pi5s and I think that's a bad thing). Regardless if I was hitting the Ci6 or Pi5 I would still need a GW as my yardages with "stock" swings are

3i - 210 200
4i - 200 190
5i - 190 180
6i - 180 170
7i - 170 165
8i - 160 155
9i - 150 145
PW - 140 135

So, based on your distances it looks like you need an extra fairway wood or hybrid. Me, I need a GW.

Obviously I don't know your game as you don't know mine, but I would say that if you are truly as good of a ballstriker as you say you are, that you would have zero trouble controlling the trajectory or direction of a "players" GI, and, we can agree to disagree but I do think they exist.
[/quote]

I'm just stating the "cons" of a GI iron as the OP asked. There are negatives, otherwise [i]everyone [/i]would play them and manufacturers would make nothing else but. There is such a thing as too high. I choose to take the workability and accuracy over the forgiveness. I gave up well over a club yardage wise when I switched but jumped from 7 to 10GIR the 1st round I had my current irons out on the course. It's not about distance to me, just distance control. Off the tee I'm long enough that giving up a club for accuracy was well worth it scorewise. It's not like I'm playing blades anyway. 704's are probably closer to a GI than a blade. They just don't have as thick a sole, as much offset and a high enough COG to flight them.

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my opinion on the matter is that changing back and forth is not a good thing, as the sole and trajectory profile is largely different. If i switched from I10's to G10's i would probably have trouble as my interactions with the turf would be much different. But over time i think i'd end up shooting similar scores as my swing adjusted.

GI irons have their major benefits (straighter shots, higher ballflight...i land my G10 3 iron softer than my I10 5 iron). But player's clubs have their advantages too (shorter interaction with the turf, easier cutting through rough, easier to keep low etc). At the end of the day you can hit most shots with either, and the negatives of one are evened out by the positives that it provides and the other doesn't. I'd like to say that i need to play players clubs, but very honestly i think i'd shoot the exact same scores with say, G10's as oppose to I10's.

this might not be true for most golfers, but this thread refers to low cappers

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      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #1
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #2
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #3
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #4
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #5
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #6
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #7
       
      Titleist T200 2& 3 irons - 2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes
       

       

       
      • 16 replies
    • 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic WITB Photos- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here.
       
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #1
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #2
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #4
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #5
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       

       
       
       
       
      • 15 replies
    • 2021 Travelers Championship - Discussion & Links
      2021 Titleist T100 irons (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      2021 Titleist T100S irons (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      2021 Titleist U 505 (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
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      Rickie Fowler's custom Cameron putters - 2021 Travelers Championship
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2021 Travelers Championship
       
      2021 Travelers Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 Travelers Championship - Tuesday #2
       
      • 20 replies

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