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How come so many guys play clubs so upright and ...


mike0814
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Fitting. When you hit off a lie board and get measured (fitted) for clubs, the board doesn't lie. Where you hit the ball on the face and where you mark up the bottom of the sole, that will tell you those clubs fit or not. In my case, I hit irons that are +1/2 inches long and 2 degrees up. Perfecto for me.

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As the above post said it really is about fitting. Its not an ego thing " oh i play upright clubs " because there are certainly a fair share of tour pros I know that play flat clubs. I play 1/4"-1/2" over depending on whose clubs youre using as "std." and 2* up as well. Its just what I came out to on a loft and lie board. Interestingly enough though your putter doesnt necessarily match your clubs for anyone who is looking to get putter fit. As I said I am 2* up on my irons but because of the way i let my arms hang and where i like to let the putter sit on the ground I use btwn 2 and 3* flat. Just keep that in mind.

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I wish that I played standard - but I've been fitted by guys 2-3 times who fit for a living - and I'm always 38.25 5i (raw length) and 1-2 up, depending on the standard (then I check them off a lie board). Maybe it's my 1/2 inch shorter arms -

 

Anyway, I like the longer, more upright position - easier on the back, too.

 

BTW, I take lessons and have a technically sound swing - play a draw - and don't come out of the shot (of course, now that I've said that, the golf gods will have me for lunch).

Father, Wannabe Golfer, Observer of Peeps, Wannabe Novelist

 

  • Ping G425 Max 10.5 (at 9)/TPT 19Hi Golf Shaft @45.5 in.
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Mike there are a couple of reasons actually. Some of it depends upon height and swing type. Most Am's have these specs however because they can't stay in the shot (standing up or adjusting the spine angle during the swing) and usually need the added length and Lie to help straighten the ball flight out. Tour Players average between +- 1/4" in length and +- 1* of loft.

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1.5* up and std length yay!!!

 

technically speaking my clubs are 1* flat, the stock lie on the 6i is 62.5*, most old school fittings are from 60* std on 6i, so mine is @ 61.5* and its as snug as a bug, i take the middle of the lie tape out everytime :)

 

my friend is 3* up on pings scale due to his coming so vertical on the downswing, there is no coming slightly inside with him, he is also a "big" guy too.

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As others mentioned I play +2 up clubs because I've been fit for those specs. The fittings I've gone through all also recommend +3/4 to +1 inch over standard (I've got relatively long arms but I'm also 6'6). When I order new irons or have a re-shaft done I always specify +1 1/4 or +1 1/2 length because I'm most comfortable gripping all my clubs 1/2 inch down from the tip of the butt end.

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When getting fitted be sure you HIT BALLS outside. My static fittings had me at 2* upright, my ball flight brought me back to 1* flat. Big difference. Many players get fitted online or indoors at retail stores, hitting balls into a tarp & using a lie board / impact tape. This is only half of the fitting. Demo days are the best thing that's happened to golf since................. I can't come up with anything clever thing to write here.

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Callaway Great Big Bertha  15*   Tensei Orange

Callaway Steelhead XR  21*   Tensei Blue

Callaway Steelhead XR  24*   Tensei Blue
Ping G425  26*  Alta CB

Ping G425  30*  Alta CB
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I played Miz blades 2 flat with X-100 for years at D-5 swingweight, std length. As I've gotten older, they seemed to be getting hard to load up, and I had a driver that was playing soft S, so I went to a set of TA-3s with NSPro r flex shafts, about 3/4" over and D-3 (which is about the same headweight as the Mizuno's were). The "right" lie angle on those ended up being almost 2 up, but that's how much more they drooped at impact over the Miz blades.

 

A lot of professionals put a lot more flexion on the shaft during the swing, and get a lot more downward deflection/droop at impact than many amateurs that play the same flex. The heavier swingweights usually lead to more droop as well. I don't pay much attention to specs. The OEMs vary from model to model, and company to company. I'm looking for a lie angle that produces a very slightly fade biased shot in the short irons, and a completely neutral ball flight in the longer irons. I try to do it dynamically on the range. Lie boards are ok, but if the lie board can't tell you what the ball is doing. What the ball does in flight is key for me. If there's one club in the set that seems to be producing more bend than the rest, after a while I might nudge it up or down without even checking what the spec is.

Taylormade r11s 9 Penley Stealth 70x 44.5" D-3 ------> Taylormade 16 M1 8.5 GD AD TP6x 44.0" D3 [s]PX Hzrdus Black 75 6.0 44.5" D-3[/s]
Nickent 3DX Pro 14 MRC Diamana WB 83s
Hybrid: Adams Idea Pro 18 Grafalloy CNote ProtoX
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Both people that HAVE been fit, and those who have NOT been fit are the reasons. I'm 6'2" and play standard length, and anywhere from 2-4º upright lie angle depending on the manufacturer. The problem most people experience is that they may get fit from brand "A", and in brand "A" they are 2º upright.

Brand "B", that same lie angle might be their "standard" lie angle. But the person just "assumes" they need 2º upright in EVERY brand.

 

I'm often surprised at how many people say they play longer than standard lengths. They either stand very upright, or are very tall with short arms.

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If someone knows how to fit the specs that you are talking about are not an issue, but I see so many people who get fitted in the store, and the professional fitter, (who is also a waiter at the Olive garden 5 nights a week) just wants to impress the customer with the most extreme fitting possible. This is done in order to prove that the customer's current set is completely wrong for him, and even though he has been playing the set for 15 years and is a 2 handicap, he must buy a new set today!

 

 

 

Olive garden pro first checks the lie angle with three standard length clubs and determines that the customer is 6 degrees upright. He then measures the wrist to floor and determines that the customer needs +2 inches, not knowing that the +2 inches will make the 6 degrees upright club into a dynamic 9 degree upright when the two specs are combined into one club. All the while the customer lives and dies with his trusty high fade, will never see his favorite ball flight again.

 

 

 

This tragic story happens every day, and we get laughed at by the custom departments for entering the orders because we offer the best deals, and people want to save money. Fortunately, club manufacturers are familiar with this story and now offer the ability to unfit these clubs for a fee by putting them back to reasonable specs.

 

 

 

Nicholas

 

PGA Professional

DiscountDansGolfcom  Highlands Golf Club
DiscountDansGolf.com

Highlands Golf Club
Gearhart, Oregon
1-877-738-5248
[email protected]
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Mr Divots,

 

I agree it is surprising how many people play overlength irons.

My opinion is that static fitting is more important than dynamic fitting.

Using static fit measurements of height and wrist-to-floor, I would say someone 6'4" or taller may qualify for overlength irons (based on 37.5" long 6-iron as industry standard).

Regarding lie angle, that is most important..Most players 5'10" or taller (in street shoes) , likely have a wrist-to-floor measurement which justifies a more upright lie angle. The higher the wrist-to-floor measurement, the more upright lie angle.

Your own measurements of 6'2" sounds about right for someone playing standard length (37.5" 6-iron) and 2* to 3* upright lie angle (due to your relaitively high wrist-to-floor).

 

Static fitting will put a player in a correct length and angled (lie) set of irons. From there he has the chance to develop a fundamentally sound address position.

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Mr Divots,

 

I agree it is surprising how many people play overlength irons.

My opinion is that static fitting is more important than dynamic fitting.

Using static fit measurements of height and wrist-to-floor, I would say someone 6'4" or taller may qualify for overlength irons (based on 37.5" long 6-iron as industry standard).

Regarding lie angle, that is most important..Most players 5'10" or taller (in street shoes) , likely have a wrist-to-floor measurement which justifies a more upright lie angle. The higher the wrist-to-floor measurement, the more upright lie angle.

Your own measurements of 6'2" sounds about right for someone playing standard length (37.5" 6-iron) and 2* to 3* upright lie angle (due to your relaitively high wrist-to-floor).

 

Static fitting will put a player in a correct length and angled (lie) set of irons. From there he has the chance to develop a fundamentally sound address position.

 

 

 

I could not agree less with the idea of static fitting being better suited for fitting, particularly for things like lie and length.

 

 

 

The club in motion has all kinds of forces acting on it, and the most important part of fitting is seeing results based on all of those forces in action. Couple that with the idea that the average golfer is not willing or able to change the swing they make or their address position, and you have static fitting as the most worthless tool in the industry.

 

 

 

As for length, I am a beleiver in ability to center a hit on the club face (a dynamic principle) as the most important method of fitting for length.

 

 

 

There is art and science invloved with fitting. The art is found in each person being fitted having preset preferences, and the science can be found in the club in motion.

 

 

 

Nicholas

DiscountDansGolfcom  Highlands Golf Club
DiscountDansGolf.com

Highlands Golf Club
Gearhart, Oregon
1-877-738-5248
[email protected]
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Fitting is specific to a brand, so reasons noted here. Maybe even to the offset / weighting on a particular model, if there is a ball flight you like.

 

I had decided to go with Ping G2s for a variety of reasons, and they had me at (and I was most comfortable with) 3* up. Callaway X-16's, I was most comfortable with a 2* up.

 

At that time, I was playing a set of TA5s that I spent $40 on to get bent 2* upright, as some sort of a placebo test. My ballflight did change from a predominant fade to a straight / draw tendency, and I saw a lot more rectangular divots, rather than my toe deep gashes. Funny thing was, my TA5's got a $50 premium on Ebay for being 2 up, so I was out no addl money, and put down $600 for my G2's with more peace of mind.

 

Two sides to every since, but I am very strongly on the get fitted side- worst case scenario, std fits you best, and you know it.

 

Also, nothing personal, but the Olive Garden comment is a cheap shot and an insult to many caring fitters that I know- most folks on a board like this should have a pro shop or a retail store that they're comfortable with, and I doubt they're getting fitted by an off-duty waiter.

 

Just my $0.02.

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Mr Divots,

 

I agree it is surprising how many people play overlength irons.

My opinion is that static fitting is more important than dynamic fitting.

Using static fit measurements of height and wrist-to-floor, I would say someone 6'4" or taller may qualify for overlength irons (based on 37.5" long 6-iron as industry standard).

Regarding lie angle, that is most important..Most players 5'10" or taller (in street shoes) , likely have a wrist-to-floor measurement which justifies a more upright lie angle. The higher the wrist-to-floor measurement, the more upright lie angle.

Your own measurements of 6'2" sounds about right for someone playing standard length (37.5" 6-iron) and 2* to 3* upright lie angle (due to your relaitively high wrist-to-floor).

 

Static fitting will put a player in a correct length and angled (lie) set of irons. From there he has the chance to develop a fundamentally sound address position.

 

I totally disagree. Most players either cannot or will not devote the time to change the swing they already have. Even better players that make tweaks to their swings will have to monitor them the rest of their lives or, the old habits will come back. Static fitting is OK for a good start but, Dynamic fitting determines WHERE THE BALL WILL GO. That is the most important part of fitting. Putting customers in clubs they are comfortable. This ensures that the equipment will allow them to play to the best of their abilities. If they do happen to improve their swing, it doesn't cost that much to get the clubs changed to their improved specs.

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One thing you need to realize about a lie board though is that it can 'lie' to you. If you hit a draw for expample and you close the face at impact it can indicate you need a more upright lie becuase the toe of the club comes into contact with the board first. Now your nice little draw will turn into a nice big yank hook. Ball flight (trajectory, distance, direction) should be the best indicator of club fitting because when it comes right down to it, does a club truly fit your swing if it doesn't help you hit better shots?

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I play my irons +1.5" and 3º upright. Why? Because that is what fits me.

 

... don't take this wrong, but the only way i could see these specs fitting someone would be if they are:

 

1. very tall

2. with proportionately very short arms

 

... like maybe something on the order of 6-5 with a 33" shirt sleeve length.

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Mike there are a couple of reasons actually. Some of it depends upon height and swing type. Most Am's have these specs however because they can't stay in the shot (standing up or adjusting the spine angle during the swing) and usually need the added length and Lie to help straighten the ball flight out. Tour Players average between +- 1/4" in length and +- 1* of loft.

 

dbleagleks,

 

good post ... makes sense. for a long time now i've been at 37.75" 5 iron (to the end of the grip cap) and 61* lie angle. i'm about to move to 38", 60.5* in order to keep me thinking about keeping my chest up (achieving tiger posture ... consistently). i find that although extremely lean/fit/strong, it's not getting any easier at 47.

 

i just can't fathom a set-up of something like 38.75", 64* lie angle ... for anyone shy of 6-5, 6-7 ... really tall.

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I'm the guy out there who actually is standard, I play both standard length and lie in my irons (37.75" 5 iron at 61deg). I have been fitted properly since I began playing 25 years ago, fitting is a lot more comprehensively done these days than when I started (and it is a VERY good thing that it is) but I still work out at standard length and lie. I have a very good local clubfitter that I use to tweak things for me and I get him to check me out spec wise from time to time but I'm just plain old standard. I have been recommended anything from .5" to 1" longer and from 1 deg to 3 deg upright when tested in retail outlets, but I will trust my clubfitter and ball flight more than some pimply faced teenager looking to make a sale any day.

 

A few years ago I got the chance to play a few rounds with my clubfitter and he recommended that we flatten the lie on my wedges a couple of degrees and it made an instant and huge improvement to me from 100 yards in, that's the sort of feedback you can get from a good clubfitter and you will not get from someone in a retail outlet with no real vested interest in you beyond getting a quick $1000 out of your wallet.

 

So really it doesn't matter what the hell you play, 4 deg upright and 2" longer is 100% fine if that is what you need. Find yourself a good clubfitter and stick with him/her. Over time they get to know you and can be an invaluable source of assistance to your game.

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Anyone who cannot trust, or is just not 100% confident in the fitting should ask the local clubfitter for one price to bend the irons a 2nd time. 1st time out, take your favorite irons 6-7-8 or 7-8-9 and have the 1st iron bent 1* up from what you were fit at and the last iron bent 1* down from what you were fit at. Now you have three clubs separated by +/- 1* to your fit. Take them out for a few rounds, see what happens. Whatever ballflight/result you are comfortable with, have the rest of the irons bent that way.

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