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Hank Haney's Swing


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Funky or Not?
Is it just me or is Hank Haney's golf swing kinda, well ....ugly? I saw him again on the medicus infomercial and his swing just looks so weird with lots of hand forearm manipulation. I know he couldn't hit driver for a while but is this the swing he teaches to others. I do not pretend to be a expert but would appreciate the input.

Also the instructor on the Golf Channel Academy (I can't recall his name) did the some wierd move with his forearms in the backswing as well that seemed like Haney. When he did swing though it looked pretty normal.

Just looking for opinions with or against.

Also does it even matter if an instructor has a good swing or not?

thanks :)

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Like you said, Hank got the driver yips a while back. He has gone to an exagerated swing with a very handsy release and an odd head position. It seems to work OK for him.

 

If you've seen that guy that Hank teaches, I think his name is Eldrick or something...just call him Tiger, than you can tell that is not the swing he teaches his students. He seems to teach somewhat of a one-plane swing. Looks like it works well to me.

 

As far as teachers with good swings...those who can do, those who can't, teach.

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As far as teachers with good swings...those who can do, those who can't, teach.

 

I really hate that saying. I wouldn't ever go to a teacher if he wasn't able to implement his practices. If he can't explain it to himself, how the heck's he going to explain it to me?

 

I've yet to go to a swing coach that couldn't do it as you say. I've been to some who couldn't teach though :)

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Now, IF he'd said this......"those that can, do, and those that can't WRITE about it" then I'd have agreed.......(as in sportswriters.....hehehe...:))

 

I can probably name 25 guy's who are in the golf business (or other businesses) that could have EASILY "made it" IF they'd had the BURNING desire ta' do so.......professional golf isn't that great a lifestyle UNLESS your one of the top 100 in the world......and, IMOP, if your in the top 5000 your pretty damn good........just figure out what % 5000 is of the total number of golfers in the world.......you can bet it's a pretty damn small percentage......:beee:

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I agree with slice on this one. I come from a family of teachers who can do a lot of things, one of which is teach. Not an easy job by any means, particularly for golf. Furthermore, how much do you think Tiger has learned from Haney exactly? While I like Haney's deamenor and style of instruction, as much as could get in reading one of his books anyways, having the best golfer in the world certainly helped his reputation. In my humble opinion, Tiger wasn't looking for a new approach from a new instructor. Tiger wanted a guy who didn't speak about his personal life or his swing problems with the media. Tiger wanted a new set of eyes that could check the adjustments Tiger wanted to implement. The O'meara connection shouldn't be overlooked. Just my two cents...

G

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In June, I'm going to be taking a days lesson with the ESPN 3 club tour. The teaching pros on this are all affiliated with Hank Haney's school, so hopefully I'll get a little firsthand picture of his teaching technique. Here's a quote from Hank:

 

"My philosophy is to teach my students to become their own best teacher by teaching them to understand the flight of the golf ball and how it relates to the swing, with emphasis on swinging the golf club on their own correct swing plane."

 

This was the same approach I had when I taught karate. Each student had different strengths and weaknesses, flexibilty, ect. I would have to work to bring out the natural abilities of the student, not make them a clone of my own style.

 

And as a former instructor, I tend to disagree with the whole premise of "he who can't, teaches", having been a tournament competitor for many years, at one time ranked #1 in the brown belt division and later #3 in the black belt division nationwide on the USKK (United States Karate-do Kai) circuit. :)

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Great post......

 

It's a BS "chiche" and I'm sure the guy who posted it know's this......probably originated by some guy who took a "series" of lessons from some idiot who can't PLAY or TEACH and's got a "chip" about it......or as a joke around the card table when discussin' the club's teaching pro who'd just shot 83 and sponsored that day's game......:)

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I agree with slice on this one. I come from a family of teachers who can do a lot of things, one of which is teach. Not an easy job by any means, particularly for golf. Furthermore, how much do you think Tiger has learned from Haney exactly? While I like Haney's deamenor and style of instruction, as much as could get in reading one of his books anyways, having the best golfer in the world certainly helped his reputation. In my humble opinion, Tiger wasn't looking for a new approach from a new instructor. Tiger wanted a guy who didn't speak about his personal life or his swing problems with the media. Tiger wanted a new set of eyes that could check the adjustments Tiger wanted to implement. The O'meara connection shouldn't be overlooked. Just my two cents...

G

 

Great post BB......from what I've been told your dead on correct too......BTW, O'Meara is workin' with Mike Abbott now which is a VERY interestin' development......:)

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I agree with Slicefixer and the rest of you and would add this:

 

Great Players cannot always teach, but great teachers were or are good players.

 

The point of my original question was if Hank (or any instructor) swings differently than what he esposes his players to do than can he or any teacher really be a good teacher? I know that if a teacher was asking me to do a certain move swinging a club but he is unable to do that move himself how does he know it works.

 

Maybe this is me personally but I learn from watching and it helps to see a good swing and I can mimic it so if an instructor's swing is not appealing than it would be hard for me to work with them.

 

BTW this has nothing to do with Tiger becuase I dont' think his swing looks like haney's or O'meara's. I just think that medicus infomercial shows two horrible looking swings. imho

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Learning from watching is one thing, but the greatest teachers are not those who make you imitate what they do. It might work for them, but me learning to swing like Bobby Jones or Tiger or Arnold would just be me imitating them without the same results. Certain aspects, maybe, but overall swing mechanics, never. I'm not Bobby or Arnold, and I need a swing style tailored to my own individual strengths and weaknesses. I think the best teachers are the ones who can watch what you are doing and help you fashion a swing that works for you. That's honestly why I would prefer a teacher like Hank Haney who pushes you to build your own strengths as opposed to David Ledbetter who has a more "imitation" approach to his teaching (not knocking David, I love his swingsetter trainer!!!)

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Pard's, Haney is probably the LEAST individual teacher in the business......EVERYONE teaches/receives the EXACT same technique.......not saying that's bad, as that's up to the teacher/student to decide......but, with Haney, you swing/teach his way or the highway......

 

IMOP, a player should NEVER try and "copy" another's swing technique, but, LEARN from them......My entire golf swing "core belief" system is based on COMMON DENOMINATOR'S I've observed in great ballstrikers techniques......IMOP you learn these common things and integrate them into YOUR swing......YOU "paint the picture" YOUR way.......but thats MOP......:)

 

I also know some good teachers who aren't very good players, but, DO understand HOW to swing a golf club in any number of ways and they KNOW how to assist golfer's to improve their technique's......and that's what really matters.......that being said, I think the BEST teachers CAN strike a golf ball and KNOW how to teach the golf swing using "feels"/"images"/"thoughts" as they KNOW what it "feels" like to do it.......but, there are some very good teachers who know the golf swing and can teach it who can't play all that well......I know one in Dallas who's a VERY good teacher who isn't a very good player......he's helped several kid's all the way to great success on the tour.......:beee:

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Haney is a pure method teacher. If it were up to him, all players swings would look the same. This is very evident in his work with Tiger and Omeara. They have done a lot of the same drills. The most obvious is the left arm disconnect, forearme role, with the club laid off. Unfotrunately, Leadbetter and Haney fall into the same category in that they teach all players the same way.

Here is a real question, where did the research for Haney's swing come from? How did he arrive at the swing he teachers today? Was it any different than the swing he taught ten years ago.

Of anyone on this site, Slicefixer knows what Haney's method is all about. All the players who the method did not work for come to see him.

There are lots of method teachers and they have been successful with certain types of players.

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This is really interesting. I'm not particularly a fan of Haney or Leadbetter's students.

 

However, I'd say that if I was going to identify a teacher whose students are copies of one another I'd say it's Jim Hardy. His students ALL have the same looking swing, bent over, around the body, dead arms. No matter their height, build, or strength. You can spot a Hardy student a mile away.

 

Perhaps that's a testament to the simplicity and effectiveness of Mr. Hardy's ideas that such a wide range of people can so effectively perform his move.

 

As far as leadbetter students, CHIII (pre-Mog), and Ernie Els look vastly different swing wise to me.

 

With Haney, Khuene (pre Harmon), O'Meara, and Tiger never looked like they were anywhere near eachother.

 

I don't know. Maybe the ability to copy a simple move is exaclty what a golf swing should be???

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That's what happens when a player is ALREADY good when you get him/her......they have THEIR swing and will ALWAYS have their swing UNLESS they decide to make wholesale changes......basically from say an "old school" type swing to a more "modern" golf swing (like Norman/Faldo did)......which doesn't happen much anymore.....ALMOST 100% of the players nowadays swing more with their "big muscles" rather than arms/hands.....so you can help them make changes and the average guy would NEVER see them without video.......

 

In Haney's case, he's had 4 really good player's that (IMOP) he's influenced tremendously......Hank Kuehne (who is no longer with him), Mark O'meara, Trip Kuehne, and Kelli Kuehne......and IF you slow down their swings (not so much Hank anymore) you'll SEE the similarities.......IF you like the way they swing the club and their ball flight then go see Hank or one of his assistants.......if not, then don't.......simple as that....

 

IMOP, a teacher would be a FOOL/IDIOT to try and "fix something that ain't broke"......in other words, IF a player has a fundamentally sound golf swing I'd be a total and complete moron to try and institute UNNECESSARY changes just for "changes sake"......and I won't do it.......won't participate that is......

 

What I believe is this, if there is quantifiable evidence to justify making a swing change then go for it.......and I also believe that EVERY serious golfer should strive to SIMPLIFY their golf swing over every single winter/off-season........in other words, work to make your golf swing SIMPLER and less "timing oriented"......but don't make changes just to change something......or to "make it prettier"/"perfect"....."it ain't no beauty contest"........:)

 

Well, so much for my day off.......back to tha' hill.....:beee:

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One thing which I think is very important in this discussion is the player v teacher idea. Method teachers beleive that their swing will improve the player. The problem is that few method teachers have done the research to find out if these ideas actually work. Let's face it, Tiger could switch to cross handed and still win on Tour. So much for grip being a fundamental.

A coach is supposed to improve people which is not as simple a task as it sounds when we are talking about elite players. How many players are working with teachers who are actually helping their games. I see more players getting worse then better.

Don't make changes simply to make changes. Players, like people, have tendencies. It is a teachers job to monitor and try to correct. Reality says you won't eliminate a tendency.

Have Hank, Hardy, and Leadbetter helped people? Absolutely. Do their methods work? Yes, they have all trained elite players. Is their swing right for everybody? No it is not.

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So Points, Slicefixer and everyone should I gather that there are basically two kinds of teachers? Method vs. individual. Not sure what to call the latter of the two. Would Butch Harmon be considered more individual. Doesn't seem like his students have the same swing to me.

 

Can you put people well known instructors into these categories pretty easily?

 

BTW great answers Slicefixer and Points. Very enlightening.

 

What is Haney's method. Seems like the guy on golf channel academy monday was doing the "haney" left arm roll discconect. I dunno how that doesn't just mess oneself all up?

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I think there are three to four types of instructors. There is the method teacher as I have explained. There is a fad teacher who teaches what is "in vogue." This teacher usually changes his ideas every month when the new Golf Digest arrives. There is the know nothing. The person who has no idea what they are doing, doesn't make changes, and works on fluff. Finally, there is a system teacher. This is something that I learned from Jim McLean. It is a teacher who has a way of working with different types of players and doesn't look for a single swing. What works and doesn't work. All great coaches (Coach K, Wooden, Parcells) have a system for making people better.

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VERY well said Points......(wouldn't expect anything less......hehehe)......you and I think a GREAT deal alike......you can't make a mule a horse.......an alley cat a leopard......plow horse a thoroughbred......:)

 

Gotta' work from within' whatever they bring to the table......and even IF a person has the desire/work ethic to REALLY improve their game you still can't try and get them to do something they are NOT readily capable of doing.........

 

Obviously I have "core beliefs".......as does any good teacher.......Ya' gotta' have em' or your just another "band-aid"/"in vogue" (borrowed that one Points...:beee:) teacher who, IMOP, really isn't "teaching" much of anything......does a "disservice" to those of us who take a great deal of pride in teaching our game and teach it with "passion".......unfortunately they are the "norm" rather than the "exception" in our business IMOP......

 

Basically what I try and do with all of my students is work with what they have to make them more fundamentally sound at the set-up and fundamentally sound through the "impact zone".......LOTS of "variations" of a grip/posture/alignment/stance/ball position would be considered "fundamentally sound" IMOP........and there are any number of ways to "square up" a golf club from reasonable "angles"......IMOP at least......

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Is it prudent to take swing advice from someone like Haney with the admitted driver "yips"... would anyone take putting tips from Johnny Miller?

 

Now perhaps they would know more about dealing with those issues if they conquered them.... or then again maybe they would be too cautious like an overly protective mother.

 

Not sure it matters just posing the question

 

the reason I ask these questions is that there is so much stuff on tv magazines that is so confusing and contradictory.

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Haney had the driver yips because he got really good at swingin' like he teaches.....

 

Out and around......drive/drop.....sling from the inside........got it so far inside that the clubhead was simply attacking from waaaay too far inside........had to stop his "core" in the downswing and "panic flip" to square it......HUGE blocks and snap hooks are the result......after awhile you can't take it back......you have NO idea where the ball will end up.......it's really easy to explain/show/detail on video......harder to fix.....but the fix would go against everything he teaches......IMOP at least.....:)

 

As for your original question, I'd ONLY take a lesson from someone who had proven themselves as a teacher and who had tutored students from "day one" to what I considered a GREAT GOLF SWING.....great ball strikers.....great ball flight....etc......

 

I took two lessons from Haney in the late 80's.......what he taught then and what he teaches today are like night and day......trust me....:beee:

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Haney had the driver yips because he got really good at swingin' like he teaches.....

 

Out and around......drive/drop.....sling from the inside........got it so far inside that the clubhead was simply attacking from waaaay too far inside........had to stop his "core" in the downswing and "panic flip" to square it......HUGE blocks and snap hooks are the result......after awhile you can't take it back......you have NO idea where the ball will end up.......it's really easy to explain/show/detail on video......harder to fix.....but the fix would go against everything he teaches......IMOP at least.....:beee:

 

As for your original question, I'd ONLY take a lesson from someone who had proven themselves as a teacher and who had tutored students from "day one" to what I considered a GREAT GOLF SWING.....great ball strikers.....great ball flight....etc......

 

I took two lessons from Haney in the late 80's.......what he taught then and what he teaches today are like night and day......trust me....:)

 

How does someone change that dramatically. I know as people we change but shouldn't your core beliefs remain somewhat unchanged.

 

Well, from what you are saying his swing looks like that to me exactly. around, up roll drop roll sling... I think I learned that in school, stop drop and roll hee hee :)

 

Does he only care where the club head is in relationship to the swing plane.

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Wow! Just checked back and what a response! I guess all I can respond is...J/K!

 

I appologize if I insulted any of you excellent instuctors out there. I know that most of you all can play and chose to teach because of your love of helping others find the enjoyment you have in playing this great game. I appreciate the fact that perhaps you have found even more success and personal satisfaction in teaching others than dealing with the vigors of the professional playing life. Or maybe you do both! In any case, my silly joke was simply that.

 

Thanks for the attitude adjustment Golfwrx. ers!

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Great post......

 

It's a BS "chiche" and I'm sure the guy who posted it know's this......probably originated by some guy who took a "series" of lessons from some idiot who can't PLAY or TEACH and's got a "chip" about it......or as a joke around the card table when discussin' the club's teaching pro who'd just shot 83 and sponsored that day's game......:)

 

 

 

 

Nahh that cliche doesnt pertain to only golf it is used all the time and all different ways. Its legitimate to a point. They cant make as much money playing as they can teaching. Dont think anyone would argue with that.

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Jim Flick has been espousing the "be your own best coach" for years, nothing new from Haney here. Though, I believe it is sound advice it can have a dramatic effect on the instructors wallet. However, any instructor worth his weight in salt ought not look at there bottom line when trying to improve a players swing, in my humble opinion. In an ideal setting an instructor should want to see a student(non pro) less and less, as that would mean they are improving.

All instructors ought to at some point diagram the physics of a golf swing as it relates to ball flight to their students. I believe that all quality instructors and manuals of golf intruction do.

Instructors who use the the "single swing for everyone" are hacks at best. Golftec comes to mind, cool technology bad implementation, generally. Im 6'8" 240lbs (lost 30 since January), I fit into no known model at Golftec or anywhere else for that matter. My regular instructor, Ray Boone at Miami Beach, had me look at swings from some comparable players from the begining. We would look at Faldo, Els, Elkington all close but not quite my size. I only know of two guys that come close, Phil Blackmar and Archer. I even had Mr. Blackmar (Flick school) look at video of my swing through V1 online, very cool,super nice guy, even gave his cell number if I had any questions. From this style I could see what other guys were doing copy no one in particular and find some areas I need to improve. General, though I think fundemental, concepts that I would then work out in the turf. In my opinion this is the best way to learn and retain what you have learned, ie on the job training.

Lastly, to borrow a cliche from elsewhere, "leave it better than how you found it." Good luck to all, golf has to be one of the most difficult games to teach, it has proven to be one of the more difficult things for me to learn. The swing, as difficult as it is, may be the easiet part. To bad golf isn't just a pretty swing. Bring on the mental gurus.

G

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Is Omeara's swing changing now that he is reportedly with another instructor? I remember an interview with Omeara stating that when he first went to Haney he was hitting ground balls like a beginner. IM completely unnoficial no experience opinion that seems a little severe of a change for a professional.

 

I don't know about everyone else but it is sure hard from a layman's point of view to know what to take away from these high profile instructors. they all seem different and change so often on tv and the mags.

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He's working with Mike Abbot......who works with TA III......good teacher who's originally from Dallas/Vaquero......

 

O'Meara had a classic "old school" action when Haney started working with him......."two plane" is the "in vogue" term.....(borrowed that from Points....hehehe).......they "rounded" out his backswing so that the arm/shoulder plane were MUCH more similar in the backswing.....and have worked on a variety of things since.......can only imagine the reasons for the split.......I saw him working with Abbot at The Masters.......

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This may be slightly off topic, but I just wanted to throw my opinion in. I take lessons from a guy named John Platt in Frankfort, Illinois. All of my friends go to him as well, and we all have very different swings. He has worked with me on several of my problems without trying to get me to swing the way he has taught the others. They are all quite laid-off, but due to my 6'4" frame, I am very upright. I love the fact that I feel like he is working with me, and not just working with a swing that he likes. Anyways, great discussion guys. Cheers, Peter

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