(my opinion)TAYLORMADE DOESN'T DESERVE OUR SUPPORT

[JIMFANTE]

Couldn't agree with you more. I scratched TM from my list a long time ago. That's across the board...irons, drivers, hybrids, balls, bags, all of it. The last thing I bought (and took back) was the R7 irons. Nice clubs from a functional standpoint, but they looked like shiny tinfoil glittering from my bag, and with racing stripes to boot. When I looked closer some of the ferrules were loose and one of the badges on the back was peeling off. Crappola! Back they went and that was it. There's too many club companies making good products to think you need to deal with that nonsense. If they make quality stuff that's marketed in Japan only I don't need or want it. No shortage of good Mizzys, Titleists, etc on this continent.

[atlanta golfer]

I lived in Japan for 5 years back in the mid 70's and it cost a fortune to play golf there, at the time. Lord only knows what it must cost now ..........I imagine only the very rich can play, which would explain why the quality and pricing of equipment are different in Japan.

Speaking for myself, I am pretty amazed when I walk through most USA golf stores ........ what a bunch of great looking equipment to choose from. Maybe my standards are just too low.

[jda]

[quote name='rankoutsider' date='10 February 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1265846921' post='2242348']
I agree with all of you guys: if you don't like, buy something else. The thing that POs me about TM, though, is that they have a business model that is basically killing the small golf shop. My buddy is left with about 5 or 6 sets every year that he bought at a premium and has to sell at a loss once the box store gets their hands on the discontinued lines. Racks of drivers as well. He doesn't want to carry TM any longer, but how will that go over with his customers?

I think TM would actually like to drive small shops out of business, because people get knowledgeable help there. What a company like TM wants is ignorant consumers pushed toward their products in box stores. TM has a contract with the Golftown in town that their rack has to be the first one a customer passes when they enter the store (I think that is the case at all Golftown stores in Canada) because they suspect that most consumers know very little and will buy what a salesperson tells them is good. Or that we are stupid enough to buy the first club we see.

Crazy stuff, but it has a trickle down effect of killing the small shop, which I am not too happy about.
[/quote]

2 of our local shops in KC quit selling all TM stuff a few years ago. They are still in business. The one closest to me has a typed up deal on how TM undersold them at Costco and Sams and then lied to their faces (letters and evidence attached). He swears that it is great for business and most people will buy other stuff once they know... plus, it gives him a chance to educate some of the finer points on quality and stuff.

[The Sheepdog]

[color=#1C2837][quote]Please enlighten us then because I still haven't found any real reason to bash Taylormade.[/quote][/color]
[color="#1C2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]I really don't know why you used the word "us", when it seems that you are the only one who needs to be enlightened. My original post has started a lot of debate about the quality of TM's clubs and how they do business, and even garnered the attention of one of its employees. Mission accomplished. [/color]
[color="#1C2837"]I also don't know why you chose to start something in a forum that you claim annoys you. I get the feeling you do this quite often. I won't be offering you anymore reasons for my argument, as I know that none will suffice for you. Like I said, my mission is accomplished, so take care and we'll see ya in another forum sometime![/color]

[KintamaTP]

I lived in Japan for 5 years back in the mid 70's and it cost a fortune to play golf there, at the time. Lord only knows what it must cost now ..........I imagine only the very rich can play, which would explain why the quality and pricing of equipment are different in Japan.

 

Speaking for myself, I am pretty amazed when I walk through most USA golf stores ........ what a bunch of great looking equipment to choose from. Maybe my standards are just too low.

 

Actually, ever since the "Bubble" burst in the 90's, the prices plummeted on everything, including golf. Golf actually became an affordable sport for many people in Japan.

 

That 2nd bit about your standards was hilarious, my friend.

[bchester6]

I can't wait until they start making square headed drivers with racing stripes!

[esinger430]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='10 February 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1265858858' post='2242860']
[color="#1c2837"][quote]Please enlighten us then because I still haven't found any real reason to bash Taylormade.[/quote][/color]
[color="#1c2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]I really don't know why you used the word "us", when it seems that you are the only one who needs to be enlightened. My original post has started a lot of debate about the quality of TM's clubs and how they do business, and even garnered the attention of one of its employees. Mission accomplished. [/color]
[color="#1c2837"]I also don't know why you chose to start something in a forum that you claim annoys you. I get the feeling you do this quite often. I won't be offering you anymore reasons for my argument, as I know that none will suffice for you. Like I said, my mission is accomplished, so take care and we'll see ya in another forum sometime![/color]
[/quote]


oh well, now my tm xr driver and 3 wood will go on ebay. fortunately i have a kamui yahooey driver and a fourteen 3 wood.

[CNCSQUARED]

[rankoutsider]

[quote name='JIMFANTE' date='10 February 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1265850999' post='2242505']
Couldn't agree with you more. I scratched TM from my list a long time ago. That's across the board...irons, drivers, hybrids, balls, bags, all of it. The last thing I bought (and took back) was the R7 irons. Nice clubs from a functional standpoint, but they looked like shiny tinfoil glittering from my bag, and with racing stripes to boot. When I looked closer some of the ferrules were loose and one of the badges on the back was peeling off. Crappola! Back they went and that was it. There's too many club companies making good products to think you need to deal with that nonsense. If they make quality stuff that's marketed in Japan only I don't need or want it. No shortage of good Mizzys, Titleists, etc on this continent.
[/quote]

I completely agree. I will never have a TM product in the bag again.

[bintandream]

When I first started reading this thread, I had so much I wanted to say. As I kept on reading, I realized that everything I wanted to say had been said in one form or another. This is the wonderful thing about this forum. The idea that we can speak freely (in a civilized manner) about our likes and dislikes about a product or company. Just a few condensed points;

1. I dislike the huge marketing that TM does but I admit they make a good product sometimes.
2. I think I understand the OP's rant, but I do believe the Japanese consumer is really different from the US consumer. Especially from an average standpoint. It would be great if TM (and all companies with specific Japanese products) offered some of their stuff through select dealers and at a premium. That way, the companies would not have to market these upscale products and still have some sales throgh hardcore equipment junkies like us.
3. At the end of the day, the hardcore hobbyist, any hobby, will have a rant about a product or company in any industry but they'll find a way to get their hands on what they want. It's all part of the fun I guess.
4. Finally, due to the quick turnover of TM product cycle lines, I'll never buy TM products at retail. I can always wait till they're on clearance or pick em up used. After all, I ahve 3 sets of fine irons and about 8 drivers in my rotation already!

Regards

Dan

[makigrl]

Taylor Made is the company that has the most tour players use their golf clubs. Maybe that's the reason so many people buy their products. Of course Taylor Made doesn't sell the most golf balls. Titleist sells the most balls. All you have to is watch television or look on the internet and you will see the ad's how Titleist explains they have the most used Golf Ball. Just for the Northern Trust Open they said some like 300 Titleist, Nearest Competitor 20. I could care less if they produce the #1 golf ball.

I got a used Taylor Made golf bag at a Thrift Shop once. I got one of those cheaper fabric bags they sell for around $60. I was able to get a near new Golf Bag for $5. But they were having a 50% off sale so I got the bag for $2.50. I thought I got a pretty good deal. When I opened up one of the pockets I found a Pro V1 Ball. I thought the ball itself is worth a $1. I did even better. When I see a Pro V1 I think of a golf ball that is suppose to be really good. I know the Titleist NXT balls are suppose to be good too but the Pro V1 is better. I know Callaway and Nike also make good balls but I think the Pro V1 is the best.

[AcesAZ]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='10 February 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1265858858' post='2242860']
[color=#1C2837][quote]Please enlighten us then because I still haven't found any real reason to bash Taylormade.[/quote][/color]
[color="#1C2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]I really don't know why you used the word "us", when it seems that you are the only one who needs to be enlightened. My original post has started a lot of debate about the quality of TM's clubs and how they do business, and even garnered the attention of one of its employees. Mission accomplished. [/color]
[color="#1C2837"]I also don't know why you chose to start something in a forum that you claim annoys you. I get the feeling you do this quite often. I won't be offering you anymore reasons for my argument, as I know that none will suffice for you. Like I said, my mission is accomplished, so take care and we'll see ya in another forum sometime![/color]
[/quote]

Actually I agree with the majority here. No need to bash a business model that works. They are in business to make money. If you dont like it buy something from another company. TM doesnt owe you anything.

[makigrl]

I took a look at tourspecgolf. I noticed how many of the Taylor Made Iron Sets they are selling are priced around $900-$1,100. I know they are selling the Japanese Taylor Made products. Now I looked at Golfsmith's Website and the prices for the American Stuff seems to run about the same price $900-$1,100 for the most expensive set of irons.

What is the actual price difference between the American and Japanese Products? What is the real retail price for the Japanese Clubs? I looked at the prices at Tourspecgolf and Golfsmith. The prices look the same. The only difference would be the quality but I thought the Japanese Product retailed for closer to $2,000-$3,000 not $1,000 like American stuff Taylor Made makes.

[mbshaf]

My favorite TM product is still the V-Steel. I tried a few things that came along afterwards but nothing stuck in the bag. Always end up going back to the V-Steel 5 wood though. Nice easy swing and it's magic from 240, great from the rough...good off tee or deck. Doesn't have any moveable weights. Traditional shape, no graphics.... To tell you the truth, can't really tell it's a TM if you had only seen this new stuff they put out. I grew up playing TM, so moving to a set up without them in the bag was almost like not going to church on Sunday for me. Just didn't feel right. They might now owe me anything, but I can tell you - this new direction has lost them a loyal customer that has been playing them since the original driver in 1980 (as a new teen). While their market may now be the duffer who buys the first one off the rack, that guy will not be getting new equipment every few seasons, and most likely will not spend as much over his lifetime playing golf as those of us who were loyal golfers. Finding a way to be true to both audiences would not have taken a rocket scientist, just a decision to do so.

I don't even go on the aisles housing TM products in the stores now. It just looks like a bunch of toys trying to catch a childs eyes. It's a shame and I can't help but think that they will continue to lose golfers who are looking for real equipment. That is actually more akin to a publicly traded company being more interested in quarterly numbers than long term viability; and look where that has taken us.

It's interesting to hear posters saying tha TM owes us nothing. Owe us? Maybe not, but without us they will not survive.

[rankoutsider]

The clubs do look like toys. The other thing they try to do is suggest that they are the dominant company in golf by simply overwhelming your eye with product. So, the racks have to fit 50 drivers, and they all have to be full: 120 hybrids out on display, where 110 of them have the same head and shaft. It's the craziest "show of force" you've ever seen as a marketing ploy, it's so transparent as to be laughable, but it works on the average, uninformed consumer.

I was very glad to hear about the small shop that won't sell them because they got lied to and screwed over. Too bad more small shops won't do this. I'm in the shop sometimes when people come in saying "I want the new TaylorMade driver" and my buddy wants to be able to sell it to them, so he keeps his stock up. Also, in golf retail, you can't really say "Have you thought about this Adams driver..." because people will think you are trying to move them to a product with a higher profit margin or something, when you are just trying to help their game.

Very, very few people who know much about the golf industry will bag their clubs. When you think, as well, that companies like Callaway and TM led the movement to outsource manufacturing jobs to Asia and shut down factories in the US (and all other companies had to follow suit to keep costs down) then you see how pernicious this whole thing is. It becomes about bigger things in the economy than this or that little retailer.

[Goldenhawk]

[quote name='sbguard9' date='07 February 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1265577810' post='2234554']
R7 425 Tp or R9 Tp?
Superquad TP or SuperTri Tp?
07 Burner or '10 Burner Superfast?
R7 tp fairway or R9 tp fairway?
Tp MB irons or R9 tp irons?
R7 Tp irons or R9 tp irons?

I just think their older stuff is better, I don't like the sleeve "gimmick." Some of those new Kia Ma putters look really nice though...
[/quote]

My biggest problem with TM is that every new driver is "10 yards longer than yours" or their previous model. In reality, TM has NOT updated their inverted cone face technology in over 4+ years and is achieving longer driving distance the cheapest way possible.......by adding length the driver shaft. Come on, the new TM Burner Superfast has a 46.5 inch shaft. Given that a new driver comes out from TM every 6 months with a 0.5 inch longer shaft, TM should reach the 48 inch maximum length by November 2011.....when the R9 Super-Tri Limited or R11 comes out.

[dachtor]

[quote name='Goldenhawk' date='11 February 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1265904594' post='2243699']
[quote name='sbguard9' date='07 February 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1265577810' post='2234554']
R7 425 Tp or R9 Tp?
Superquad TP or SuperTri Tp?
07 Burner or '10 Burner Superfast?
R7 tp fairway or R9 tp fairway?
Tp MB irons or R9 tp irons?
R7 Tp irons or R9 tp irons?

I just think their older stuff is better, I don't like the sleeve "gimmick." Some of those new Kia Ma putters look really nice though...
[/quote]

My biggest problem with TM is that every new driver is "10 yards longer than yours" or their previous model. In reality, TM has NOT updated their inverted cone face technology in over 4+ years and is achieving longer driving distance the cheapest way possible.......by adding length the driver shaft. Come on, the new TM Burner Superfast has a 46.5 inch shaft. Given that a new driver comes out from TM every 6 months with a 0.5 inch longer shaft, TM should reach the 48 inch maximum length by November 2011.....when the R9 Super-Tri Limited or R11 comes out.
[/quote]

Come on guys. I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit because I think you are unfairly attacking Taylormade. What company doesn't claim their latest model is longer? Isn't that the point of innovation? It's like the new and improved paper towels. Are they really better? TM isn't the only company in golf to do this and golf isn't the only industry we see this in.

For comparison sake, let's look at a couple other manufacturers. Do you guys really think there is a huge difference between this years Titleist AP-2 and last years? What about ping? Is there a huge difference between the G5, G10 and G15 irons? What about the i10 and i15? I also don't think it's fair to compare Titleist or Ping to TM when it comes to Japanese offerings. Those two don't have a large presence in Japan to begin with, but the limited Titleist offerings in Japan are different. Mizuno and Callaway both offer clubs to the japanese market that are different than the US market but you guys aren't compaining about that.

[ksavy17]

[quote name='dachtor' date='11 February 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1265913842' post='2244046']
[quote name='Goldenhawk' date='11 February 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1265904594' post='2243699']
[quote name='sbguard9' date='07 February 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1265577810' post='2234554']
R7 425 Tp or R9 Tp?
Superquad TP or SuperTri Tp?
07 Burner or '10 Burner Superfast?
R7 tp fairway or R9 tp fairway?
Tp MB irons or R9 tp irons?
R7 Tp irons or R9 tp irons?

I just think their older stuff is better, I don't like the sleeve "gimmick." Some of those new Kia Ma putters look really nice though...
[/quote]

My biggest problem with TM is that every new driver is "10 yards longer than yours" or their previous model. In reality, TM has NOT updated their inverted cone face technology in over 4+ years and is achieving longer driving distance the cheapest way possible.......by adding length the driver shaft. Come on, the new TM Burner Superfast has a 46.5 inch shaft. Given that a new driver comes out from TM every 6 months with a 0.5 inch longer shaft, TM should reach the 48 inch maximum length by November 2011.....when the R9 Super-Tri Limited or R11 comes out.
[/quote]

Come on guys. I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit because I think you are unfairly attacking Taylormade. What company doesn't claim their latest model is longer? Isn't that the point of innovation? It's like the new and improved paper towels. Are they really better? TM isn't the only company in golf to do this and golf isn't the only industry we see this in.

For comparison sake, let's look at a couple other manufacturers. Do you guys really think there is a huge difference between this years Titleist AP-2 and last years? What about ping? Is there a huge difference between the G5, G10 and G15 irons? What about the i10 and i15? I also don't think it's fair to compare Titleist or Ping to TM when it comes to Japanese offerings. Those two don't have a large presence in Japan to begin with, but the limited Titleist offerings in Japan are different. Mizuno and Callaway both offer clubs to the japanese market that are different than the US market but you guys aren't compaining about that.
[/quote]
You made some good valid points but it doesnt really matter anymore. Taylormade is crap and we have to face reality

[CasualLie]

[quote name='makigrl' date='11 February 2010 - 04:05 AM' timestamp='1265889953' post='2243340']
I took a look at tourspecgolf. I noticed how many of the Taylor Made Iron Sets they are selling are priced around $900-$1,100. I know they are selling the Japanese Taylor Made products. Now I looked at Golfsmith's Website and the prices for the American Stuff seems to run about the same price $900-$1,100 for the most expensive set of irons.

What is the actual price difference between the American and Japanese Products? What is the real retail price for the Japanese Clubs? I looked at the prices at Tourspecgolf and Golfsmith. The prices look the same. The only difference would be the quality but I thought the Japanese Product retailed for closer to $2,000-$3,000 not $1,000 like American stuff Taylor Made makes.
[/quote]

Small print is your friend. The sets on tourspec are 5-PW, not 3-PW. So that's at least 25% difference in price without doing any serious calculation. If you bothered with the details you would see an example such as R9 Forged from Japan 3-PW X100 shafts, $1469 from TSG. Normal street price of R9 TPs in U.S. is $899, so you are paying a 60% premium for forged and japan design. Not a lot of U.S. consumers are into that. And then you get clubs from someone like Discount Dan's it's more of a gap. At leas the Japan R9 Forged is worthy of a TP badge.

Anyone else notice the forged TP branded iron from Japan really hasn't changed in design for three+ years.

[KMeloney]

[quote name='Great Dane' date='08 February 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1265679514' post='2237269']
I can't believe TM calls [b]their (its, really)[/b] r9 irons "Tour Preferred". [b]They're[/b] not even forged and [b]they're too[/b] oversized. I think they should change [b]their[/b] TP logo to HP instead. "Hackers Preferred"...LOL
[/quote]

Fixed that for you...

[Oldboy]

[quote name='Goldenhawk' date='11 February 2010 - 08:09 AM' timestamp='1265904594' post='2243699']
[quote name='sbguard9' date='07 February 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1265577810' post='2234554']
R7 425 Tp or R9 Tp?
Superquad TP or SuperTri Tp?
07 Burner or '10 Burner Superfast?
R7 tp fairway or R9 tp fairway?
Tp MB irons or R9 tp irons?
R7 Tp irons or R9 tp irons?

I just think their older stuff is better, I don't like the sleeve "gimmick." Some of those new Kia Ma putters look really nice though...
[/quote]

My biggest problem with TM is that every new driver is "10 yards longer than yours" or their previous model. In reality, TM has NOT updated their inverted cone face technology in over 4+ years and is achieving longer driving distance the cheapest way possible.......by adding length the driver shaft. Come on, the new TM Burner Superfast has a 46.5 inch shaft. Given that a new driver comes out from TM every 6 months with a 0.5 inch longer shaft, TM should reach the 48 inch maximum length by November 2011.....when the R9 Super-Tri Limited or R11 comes out.
[/quote]

[CasualLie]

[quote name='BDoubleG' date='10 February 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1265846995' post='2242352']
OK, I realize that this isn't exactly the issue at hand, but one has to admit that TM's unbelievable turnaround must have something to do with this. I always hear jokes along the likes of "oh, the Penta's out now, I bet the Hexa will be out by July" or "now that they've come out with R9s with funny names, the R11 should be out by April". Usually, I take these with a grain of salt, but look at the R9/burner track record (these numbers could be a bit off, but you get the jist):
- Burner 09 - Q1 09
- R9 - Q1 09
- R9 460 - Q2 09
- Burner Superfast - Q1 10
- R9 Supertri - Q1 10
..and NOW
- R9 Superdeep - Q2 10?

It really is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe that a company churning out stuff this fast even has time to properly research this stuff! It reminds me of RIM (Blackberry) when a close friend of mine worked there a few years ago. While at one point RIM was known for its quality, it turned around and decided to churn out a new Blackberry every month. He said that during this period, beta testers (people who look for minor flaws and irritants in the programming) were getting nearly non-working products as a result of bumped-up schedules to meet ridiculous deadlines! Fortunately, it seems as though RIM has turned itself around to a degree, and I hope TM does the same...

[/quote]

You are way off in your analysis. First of all, those drivers you listed come at different price points and different performance characteristics. They are not all one size fits all and TM expects you to upgrade every few months. At worst, or best, you can argue TM is churning out Drivers to the same target market and price point every year like a new model car. Is that so bad?

Fact is you have some extremes in your list. If you are a weekend hack who can't break 100, you have no business hitting the first R9 and the soon to come out Superdeep. Maybe you can get away with the Supertri, but really you fit nicely with the Burner or R9 460. So it's not as complicated or "ridiculous" as you make it sound.

What choices did you have from Callaway over the last two years? The player's choice, FT-9, and you could splurge for the TA version. Or it was square headed ugliness, or the other wacko shape ugly Diablo. Wow, now that's how it should be done. Not.

[AcesAZ]

What do you think these golf companies should do? The driver size, cor, moi, fct, is all maxed out. Their is nothing they can do to make real improvements over any design the last couple years. Even drivers made 4 years ago really are not any shorter than anything out now. Eventually more and more people are going to realize this and stop buying the latest and greatest anything. So in comes lowering their production costs and continue to spend on marketing. Marketing sells. I think we'll also see more and more golf companies go out of business for the simple fact that technology is nearly maxed out and prices will have to come down.

[sooperstring]

[quote name='rankoutsider' date='10 February 2010 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1265846921' post='2242348']
I agree with all of you guys: if you don't like, buy something else. The thing that POs me about TM, though, is that they have a business model that is basically killing the small golf shop. My buddy is left with about 5 or 6 sets every year that he bought at a premium and has to sell at a loss once the box store gets their hands on the discontinued lines. Racks of drivers as well. He doesn't want to carry TM any longer, but how will that go over with his customers?

I think TM would actually like to drive small shops out of business, because people get knowledgeable help there. What a company like TM wants is ignorant consumers pushed toward their products in box stores. TM has a contract with the Golftown in town that their rack has to be the first one a customer passes when they enter the store (I think that is the case at all Golftown stores in Canada) because they suspect that most consumers know very little and will buy what a salesperson tells them is good. Or that we are stupid enough to buy the first club we see.

Crazy stuff, but it has a trickle down effect of killing the small shop, which I am not too happy about.
[/quote]

Maybe this isn't the thread for it, but TM conforms most closely to the general retail model that most other industries use. I personally don't understand how golf shops in general stay in business, without being able to clearance their own inventory or run promotions for 90% of their stock. Their margin must be awesome on clothes.

[SagaSupra]

interesting thread. I wont be eating sushi here in the united states anymore because japan gets all the top quality fish.

[BDoubleG]

[quote name='CasualLie' date='11 February 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1265922459' post='2244407']
[quote name='BDoubleG' date='10 February 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1265846995' post='2242352']
OK, I realize that this isn't exactly the issue at hand, but one has to admit that TM's unbelievable turnaround must have something to do with this. I always hear jokes along the likes of "oh, the Penta's out now, I bet the Hexa will be out by July" or "now that they've come out with R9s with funny names, the R11 should be out by April". Usually, I take these with a grain of salt, but look at the R9/burner track record (these numbers could be a bit off, but you get the jist):
- Burner 09 - Q1 09
- R9 - Q1 09
- R9 460 - Q2 09
- Burner Superfast - Q1 10
- R9 Supertri - Q1 10
..and NOW
- R9 Superdeep - Q2 10?

It really is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe that a company churning out stuff this fast even has time to properly research this stuff! It reminds me of RIM (Blackberry) when a close friend of mine worked there a few years ago. While at one point RIM was known for its quality, it turned around and decided to churn out a new Blackberry every month. He said that during this period, beta testers (people who look for minor flaws and irritants in the programming) were getting nearly non-working products as a result of bumped-up schedules to meet ridiculous deadlines! Fortunately, it seems as though RIM has turned itself around to a degree, and I hope TM does the same...

[/quote]

You are way off in your analysis. First of all, those drivers you listed come at different price points and different performance characteristics. They are not all one size fits all and TM expects you to upgrade every few months. At worst, or best, you can argue TM is churning out Drivers to the same target market and price point every year like a new model car. Is that so bad?

Fact is you have some extremes in your list. If you are a weekend hack who can't break 100, you have no business hitting the first R9 and the soon to come out Superdeep. Maybe you can get away with the Supertri, but really you fit nicely with the Burner or R9 460. So it's not as complicated or "ridiculous" as you make it sound.

What choices did you have from Callaway over the last two years? The player's choice, FT-9, and you could splurge for the TA version. Or it was square headed ugliness, or the other wacko shape ugly Diablo. Wow, now that's how it should be done. Not.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree on this one. Admittedly, your Callaway analogy is accurate, but it has already been mentioned in this thread that Callaway is in the same boat as TM to a degree, and I only reamed on TM because this thread is about TM.

I realize that the R9, R9 Superdeep, the R9 Supertri [b]and the R7 Limited (which I forgot to mention in my last post)[/b] are for the better golfers, and the Burner series and the R9 460 are for the hackers. That said, with the exception of Callaway (which I already said was in the same boat), I can't think of ANY other golf company that releases 7 drivers over the course of approximately one year. Ping releases either 2 or 4 at most per year, depending on what the Rapture line is doing, Titleist released 3 last year, and (to my knowledge) none this year, (my numbers may be a bit off here...correct me if I'm wrong) Cleveland was 3 in the last year or so, Cobra either 2 or 3...

I'm not altogether a TM hater...HONESTLY! I do play the Kia Ma Monaco TP and wouldn't trade it for any putter in the world, but in MY opinion, there simply isn't enough difference in 420-460cc drivers with or without moveable weights, and shiftable trajectories to warrant 7 in one year!

My logic isn't off, it's just MY logic!

[quote]For comparison sake, let's look at a couple other manufacturers. Do you guys really think there is a huge difference between this years Titleist AP-2 and last years? What about ping? Is there a huge difference between the G5, G10 and G15 irons? [/quote]

There are definitely differences between the G5, G10 and G15, and furthermore, the sets were released two years apart from one another. And there may not be a huge difference between Titleist's '09 AP2 and '10 AP2, but at least they aren't calling last year's model the AP2, and this year's model the AP2-super-omega-deca-awesome-limited.

...not trying to offend, just poking some fun!

[SwingBlade]

[quote name='SagaSupra' date='11 February 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1265927814' post='2244636']
interesting thread. I wont be eating sushi here in the united states anymore because japan gets all the top quality fish.


[/quote]


Great pertinent response.

The things being discussed herein have a lot to do with good old market forces. I am in Japan almost every month and often hit a number of high end golf shops. There is lots and lots of golf stuff over there that we do not see and never will see in the U.S. There is a lot of good quality stuff and a lot of bling stuff. They have excellent assortments of high end leather golf club bags and other accessories that we also never see here. TM and others market at the Japanese price points which are much, much higher than here in the U.S. TM doesn't go after the highest levels of product over there but they try to give high quality value in an otherwise very high end marketplace and buying into many Tour bags around the professional world helps to give them credibility in an otherwise very tough market. When was the last time any of us saw a set of irons sitting in a store priced at $24,000? You see that sort of product and some priced much higher all over Japan and also at many high end shops throughout Asia in Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

Don't get me wrong, because there are many things about TM's manipulative marketing strategies that I strongly dislike but this issue isn't a biggy on my list. Whether we like it or not, we as a collective marketplace are cheap. We wheedle down the price on everything. We put long established golf shops out of business every day. Any store that marketed the really high end Japanese market golf products would be out of business in a heartbeat over here. You don't see many stores with Miura products of any kind and almost none with the really high end Honma and similar products.

Many consumers in the U.S. make the same type of gripes about air travel and the relative quality of first class, the lack of quality onboard meals, and the cramped coach seats etc. But the same folks are the first ones to spend hours and hours trying to find the best deal possible on a simple 1500 mile flight or even a 300 mile flight. Some foreign carriers charge $24,000 or more for a first class seat that U.S. carriers can't market for more than $10,000. You get what you pay for folks. Likewise, when the tenth guy walks into a pro shop on the same day and says, "I want a new set of irons but $500 is my top price", the message is sent loud and clear.

So, the next time you see a guy or gal acquire a used set of clubs from a bin or buy a new set on eBay, stop and reflect on the message they are sending about what sells in the U.S. and what doesn't. Do they recognize that the local pro shop is having financial problems but still decide to save $50 by buying the same set at a big discount house, or Costco, or the Internet? Just because a few hundred Internet golf nuts want super high end equipment doesn't mean that such products can be sold here at a profit.

Still wonder why we get different products? Don't blame TM for this one. The problem is us.

[CasualLie]

[quote name='BDoubleG' date='11 February 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1265930167' post='2244756']
[quote name='CasualLie' date='11 February 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1265922459' post='2244407']
[quote name='BDoubleG' date='10 February 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1265846995' post='2242352']
OK, I realize that this isn't exactly the issue at hand, but one has to admit that TM's unbelievable turnaround must have something to do with this. I always hear jokes along the likes of "oh, the Penta's out now, I bet the Hexa will be out by July" or "now that they've come out with R9s with funny names, the R11 should be out by April". Usually, I take these with a grain of salt, but look at the R9/burner track record (these numbers could be a bit off, but you get the jist):
- Burner 09 - Q1 09
- R9 - Q1 09
- R9 460 - Q2 09
- Burner Superfast - Q1 10
- R9 Supertri - Q1 10
..and NOW
- R9 Superdeep - Q2 10?

It really is ridiculous. I find it hard to believe that a company churning out stuff this fast even has time to properly research this stuff! It reminds me of RIM (Blackberry) when a close friend of mine worked there a few years ago. While at one point RIM was known for its quality, it turned around and decided to churn out a new Blackberry every month. He said that during this period, beta testers (people who look for minor flaws and irritants in the programming) were getting nearly non-working products as a result of bumped-up schedules to meet ridiculous deadlines! Fortunately, it seems as though RIM has turned itself around to a degree, and I hope TM does the same...

[/quote]

You are way off in your analysis. First of all, those drivers you listed come at different price points and different performance characteristics. They are not all one size fits all and TM expects you to upgrade every few months. At worst, or best, you can argue TM is churning out Drivers to the same target market and price point every year like a new model car. Is that so bad?

Fact is you have some extremes in your list. If you are a weekend hack who can't break 100, you have no business hitting the first R9 and the soon to come out Superdeep. Maybe you can get away with the Supertri, but really you fit nicely with the Burner or R9 460. So it's not as complicated or "ridiculous" as you make it sound.

What choices did you have from Callaway over the last two years? The player's choice, FT-9, and you could splurge for the TA version. Or it was square headed ugliness, or the other wacko shape ugly Diablo. Wow, now that's how it should be done. Not.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree on this one. Admittedly, your Callaway analogy is accurate, but it has already been mentioned in this thread that Callaway is in the same boat as TM to a degree, and I only reamed on TM because this thread is about TM.

I realize that the R9, R9 Superdeep, the R9 Supertri [b]and the R7 Limited (which I forgot to mention in my last post)[/b] are for the better golfers, and the Burner series and the R9 460 are for the hackers. That said, with the exception of Callaway (which I already said was in the same boat), I can't think of ANY other golf company that releases 7 drivers over the course of approximately one year. Ping releases either 2 or 4 at most per year, depending on what the Rapture line is doing, Titleist released 3 last year, and (to my knowledge) none this year, (my numbers may be a bit off here...correct me if I'm wrong) Cleveland was 3 in the last year or so, Cobra either 2 or 3...

I'm not altogether a TM hater...HONESTLY! I do play the Kia Ma Monaco TP and wouldn't trade it for any putter in the world, but in MY opinion, there simply isn't enough difference in 420-460cc drivers with or without moveable weights, and shiftable trajectories to warrant 7 in one year!

My logic isn't off, it's just MY logic!

[quote]For comparison sake, let's look at a couple other manufacturers. Do you guys really think there is a huge difference between this years Titleist AP-2 and last years? What about ping? Is there a huge difference between the G5, G10 and G15 irons? [/quote]

There are definitely differences between the G5, G10 and G15, and furthermore, the sets were released two years apart from one another. And there may not be a huge difference between Titleist's '09 AP2 and '10 AP2, but at least they aren't calling last year's model the AP2, and this year's model the AP2-super-omega-deca-awesome-limited.

...not trying to offend, just poking some fun!
[/quote]

I hear what you are saying. I'll give you R7 Limited, that was a joke of a driver that TM clearly was trying to pull the wool over our eyes with. It's not 7 in one year. It's two years worth of releases.

The other company that releases so many drivers is Acushnet. They are worse, they use Titleist like TM uses R9, and they use Cobra like TM uses Burner. Cobra by itself is right in line with TM.


2009-2010 Titleist: 3 Drivers 909 D2, D3, and DComp
2009 Cobra S9 Pro D, S9 Pro, S9-1 F Speed, S9-1 M Speed, and L5V
2010 Cobra S2, S2 Offset, ZL (and not counting out the possibility of S2 Pro)

TM must be doing something right, whether it's marketing or fooling the public, the numbers speak for themselves. At one time last year they had three of the top four selling models in drivers, so it pays for them to go with a wide spectrum. One driver model outsells all of Ping models combined, and Cleveland? They are way in the distance. Those companies are not releasing a ton of models out of strategy, it is out of economic necessity. They can't compete. But back to Cobra. They must be doing something right too, because with all those models, I think they are #2 in drivers ahead of Callaway, or very close to it.

I have no issue with TM on their drivers. I know some get in a twist over the resale value, but who cares? The customer is way ahead on this one as long as it lasts. Right now you can go to your local golfsmith and there is a rack full of used TM drivers to try. You get 90% refund in 10 days, so you have a $20-$25 rental fee for trying a driver. Great. This wouldn't be possible without TM pumping out the drivers.

But back to the irons. They cannot with a straight face claim to have released an iron set deserving of the TP crest like they have with the drivers. That's a shame.

[bchester6]

It's a shame because I can remember the day when they churned out a very respectable iron (300 series forged) and it was all you could do to get a hold of a set. Beautifal classic forgings with appropriate logoing/print on the club head, the REAL Tour Preferred model (Fred Couples is still gaming these things for christ's sake). What happened to that business model??? Time for all of us to move on because it's clearly a case of, " The older I get the better they were. "

[dachtor]

I just saw a TV commercial for the new Adams Speedline driver on Golf Channel. "15 yards longer off the tee" was the claim........

TM isn't doing anything anybody else isn't. They are just doing it better.