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new rakes at memorial


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for all the bunkers...good or bad?
im watching the telecast and am watching at how painful these bunkers are...reminds me of my local muni's. i like how they are harder because the bunkers are usually done up just perfect for the pros and it can get really easy but im not so sure about the immediate drastic change to make the bunkers more penal. what's ur guys's take??


WHOA watch out ernie...another victim (ernie on the reachable par 5; 3 wood, 4 iron to front bunker but ended up with a bogey!!)
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Yeah the bunkers are supposed to be a hazard,it might make them think a bit more about bombing their drives and catch one of those fairway traps in a rake furrow. :idhitit:

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My buddy that's lucky enough to be at the tourney this week sent me this tidbit yesterday evening.

 

One other thing - at this tournament they are raking the traps a bit different. They are using a deeper rake with wider thongs, a ball fits in between each one. The purpose is to make the traps more penalizing.

 

I was standing watching Billy Andrade and Scott Verplank practice in a bunker, and Slugger White, the PGA head honcho in charge of setting the courses walked by. They both gave it to him pretty good - said "nice rakes you have here." I heard they purchased 300 rakes to use in all the traps around the course.

 

You could hear some grumblings this weekend

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Here are the rakes:

 

Thanks to yahoo for the pic!

 

It'll be interesting to see exactly what kind of an effect this will have.

 

I heard on ESPN they hired people to rake the bunkers so they're uniform for all the players. I think the direction they are raked will make a HUGE difference now. If they're raked in teh direction of play it'll be easier to get clean contact, if they're perpendicular to direction of play, it's going to be very hard to get clean contact without hitting sand first.

 

Watching a bit of the telecast today I've already seen a couple of chunked fairway bunker shots.

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Years ago, Harvey Penick harped on raking bunkers in furrows in his Red Book. Interesting to see someone finally give it a shot.

 

I think it's a great idea. It's a straightforward way to challenge the pros (since apparently everyone thinks the game has gotten "too easy" for them) and as long as the entire field has to face that challenge, it's a fair way to test their skill and penalize inaccuracy.

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At last...that's my take. Over the years I've seen and heard pros root for a ball to go into the bunker rather than the rough. No way that can be right since it's supposed to be a hazzard eh? I heard the same interview with Jack mentioned by lee0073 and Nicklaus said he overheard a young guy saying that the rough was long and now the bunkers are raked like this so where are they supposed to aim? Jack just shakes his head and says "try the fairway". Better yet let them play the same footprint filled traps (both people and deer prints) and see how well they like it... :idhitit:

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I just got home from The Memorial today and I couldn't help but chime in on this. ESPN is right, each fairway bunker has someone ready to rake it if a ball goes in. Bunkers around the green aren't manned, but the rakes are there. I saw Rich Beem on 10 miss it to the left and all he could do was laugh. He couldn't believe the lie he had. I like the idea. Also, the rough today was very long.....I mean US Open style long. The course looks great!!!

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I think it's a great idea! These guys have gotten so good that the traps are no longer hazards.

I look for other courses to do this too. I really loved Nicklaus's response to the player's

questioning where they were supposed to hit it. Believe me, if this wasn't his tournament,

they would be screaming bloody murder. Something close to "they want to make us look like

idiots".

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I think its a great idea.

 

Was this Jack's doing? He's always harping about how they don't have to make courses longer to make them more challanging... its nice to see him practice what he preaches.

 

 

Ditto... great idea from Mr. Nicklaus. His course designs are challenging for we amatuers, and should be for the professionals as well.

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Great Idea......it should hurt when you miss and land in a bunker. On some coursed Pro's aim for the bunkers because it is easier to get out of them than to make the ball sick on the green.......example the 2004 US open.

 

There's only a couple of issues that I have with this.

 

Pros work hard on their bunker games, which is why they make getting up and down so easy. It's not like they just recieve some magical wedge when they get their tour card that makes them extraordinary out of bunkers. I think this sort of thing downplays the work that pros put into their bunker games and makes it more a game of chance. Some people are naturally better bunker players than others just like some guys hit the ball farther than others. This sort of negates the hard work they put into their bunker games IMHO.

 

If this is fair, then why not roll back the ball for the higher swing speed players?

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"Pros work hard on their bunker games, which is why they make getting up and down so easy. It's not like they just receive some magical wedge when they get their tour card that makes them extraordinary out of bunkers. I think this sort of thing downplays the work that pros put into their bunker games and makes it more a game of chance. Some people are naturally better bunker players than others just like some guys hit the ball farther than others. This sort of negates the hard work they put into their bunker games IMHO.

 

If this is fair, then why not roll back the ball for the higher swing speed players?"

 

TMF, love reading your posts, this is the first time I haven't been 100% with you.

 

I understand your point, but ask yourself why do they work so hard on their sand games? They know that if they're in a bit of trouble, or have a decision to make in going for a par 5 in 2 or shooting for a pin tucked behind a bunker for example, they can hit a shot so their "miss" will be a bunker, not the rough. Why? So they can get a more consistent lie, they know they'll be able to get the club on the ball. Who knows what they'll get in the rough.

 

Bunkers, IMOP, should be a hazard, not a safe bail out.

 

Rolling back any technology would be incredibly difficult to pull off and why do it? Club and ball manufacturers aren't making equipment better and better so the pro's can eat up these courses, they do it so we, the typical golf nuts, keep going out and buying the latest and greatest so we can hit it straighter and farther.

 

It seems the only thing the PGA and the tournaments can do, immediately, to make things a bit more difficult for the pros is trick out the pin placements (totally unfair), grow the rough to truly penalizing lengths and/or make bunkers difficult. Bunkers should be penalizing as they are the result of an errant shot.

 

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Here is my .02 worth. One, a bunker by definition in the rule book, is a hazard. Becuase of the conditions of the courses the pros play, the bunkers have become a very useful bailout area because they know they will get a perfect lie and more times than not get it up and down where is in the rough there chances go way down so therefore they aim at the pins knowing if they miss they will tend toward missing into a bunker vs. the high rough. I think all courses should use these new rakes and grow the rough up US Open style and let the best man win.

 

The last time I heard, golf was a lot easier when you hit it into the fairway and onto the green. The pros need a little bit of cheese with there wine.

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if it weren't raining so hard I'd be over at the tournament right now...instead I'm waiting it out at work. yesterday was hot and muggy, today is rainy and muddy...the next two days look nice, however. for today, the rainshirt and umbrella are standing by...

 

my impression was that it is something the PGA tour proposed to Jack...something they've been thinking of trying out for a while...and Jack happened to agree with them so he said sure. the only point I've heard made is that it would have been more fair if they had warned the players in advance so they could practice out of furrowed bunkers. I think I agree with that...but at the same time I love that they are having a more difficult time spinning bunker shots.

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If this is fair, then why not roll back the ball for the higher swing speed players?

 

Nobody complains when they hit a pothole bunker at St. Andrews and thinks that the bunkers there are un-fair. A bunker is a hazard that you can play from.....it should be harder.

 

To change the ball is silly. Distance is not an issue. So what if a Pro can smash the ball 320 every time. Make the landing area 20 yards wide and then let them rip it and we will see how well they do. The bunker is the same thing. Risk vs. Reward. Pro's whining about bunker rakes is silly.

 

The only reason I brought the whole ball roll back issue up is that because it takes something pro golfers work hard for (swing speed) and tries to negate it. I feel like that's the same thing that's been done here. There were still good shots played out of bunkers despite the controversy about raking. Any time your ball finds a bunker you riks getting a plugged lie, soft sand ups this chance considerably. I just think there are other ways to make a bunker truly penal . . .

 

I agree that bunkers are and should be hazards. But the bunkers at St. Andrews are difficult becasue of their depth and high lips, not because of the lie you get.

 

I don't know it's a tough issue. I think a lot of the controversy is because of the fact that pros weren't informed about the change until just before the tournament. No info = no time to prepare which I also think was unfair. I bet if these rakes and furrows become more popular pros will be able to alter their technique and equipment to get balls to stop on a dime like before.

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I found all the baitching hilarious. Those pros are so spoiled by immaculate conditioning of PGA Tour courses. After all, any good shots usually are rewarded with fairways and greens hit. Bad & offline shots should be penalized by thick rough and bunkers that should be playing as hard as the thick greenside rough.

 

Normal PGA smooth bunkers are many times easier to hit out of than from 4-6" greenside rough even for glorified hackers like us. Those smooth bunkers are almost like being in the fairway so I don't see any problem in making those bunkers more penal than usual for those spoiled pros, IMHO.

 

After all, the object of the game is to hit the fairways and get on the greens, right?

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What the complaining players don't seem to understand is that they have no say in this. It is up to the USGA and tournament officials, not Scott Verplank or Billy Andrade or Jeff Maggert or some other player who is boring and has no fans.

 

Honestly, who are these people to tell Jack Nicklaus, the greatest player of all time, how to set up HIS golf course at HIS tournament? Does anyone actually care if the complaining players don't play? I haven't heard a negative quote from a top player, just the "field fillers" seem to be complaining.

 

As previous posters have said, bunkers are HAZARDS and the lie is supposed to be unpredictable in a hazard. On the PGA players actually aim for a bunker sometimes because they know they will get a good lie as opposed to greenside rough where it is a toss-up.

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Yeah first they complained about spikemarks on the greens.....softspikes,problem solved.Then they complained about fairways either to hard or too soft,god knows their fairways could stack up against most greens we play on a daily basis,and now they want a hazard so manicured it isn't really a hazard anymore.Jeez come on already!!! Based on all the furvor about this topic,i think the pga tour should set up all the tournaments this way,and really identify the best players.

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first of all, i really enjoyed reading all the posts :idhitit:

 

i must agree with a bunch of you.....

don't hit it in the bunker.

 

i mean, KJ Choi leads the tour this year so far with 66% of sand saves.

the average is 50%. that means, every other time they go in a bunker, they get up and down.

 

hey, why not aim for the bunker rather than the water!!!

now, i think it brings the shot makers back into the game.

 

oh yeah, between the pros that are complaining, how many of them have majors.....

or even tour wins?

maybe a couple here and there.

 

i would love to try and play with those rakes.

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I agree w/ about everyone and love the idea of the rakes and making the bunkers "hazards" again. I especially liked when Jack was in the booth and he essentially said- Well, we'll see if the PGA has the stones to keep doing this or if they'll give in to the players whining. Great stuff.

 

On a side note- I got to pick up a couple of the players at the airport (and talk to some others) again this year for the tournament. Pretty cool. Such nice guys. I get to go the tournment Sat and Sun so let's pray the rain stops.

 

One reason Camillo might not be playing well- the airline lost his bag when he arrived Sun. He was supposed to get it sometime Monday, but I don't know if he did or not.

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I have no sympathy. The courses I play are cow pastures compared to these layouts and I'm still required to get up and down. At least they don't have rocks in them, thin sand with hard pan underneath, course sand in some, new fine sand in others, etc. that I get to figure out how to get out of. There is a school of thought that bunkers should not be raked at all, an interesting concept. :idhitit:

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I have no sympathy. The courses I play are cow pastures compared to these layouts and I'm still required to get up and down. At least they don't have rocks in them, thin sand with hard pan underneath, course sand in some, new fine sand in others, etc. that I get to figure out how to get out of. There is a school of thought that bunkers should not be raked at all, an interesting concept. :idhitit:

 

i know what ya mean...just put some well placed deep footprints by the lips and sprinkle a ton of sand around the edge so being a little out of the bunker is worse than being in the footprint!

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