Hogan's supination

[Blackfinn]

Not a "secret' discussion

How did he do it? Seriously. The only why I can supinate at impact is to either: a). have a very weak grip; or b). come from way inside. By "supinate," I mean where the back of a bowed left hand is in-line with outside of the lower forearm.

Not to steal Mike Cortson's thunder, but how in the world could Mr. Hogan go from a cupped wrist at the top to a supinated left wrist at impact? See pg. 102 Five Lessons. Supination seems to be a major fundamental in Five Lessons - but no mention of wrist cup except for the 1955 (?) Life Magazine article. Why would he incorporate a cupped left wrist at the top if his ultimate goal was to supinate at impact? Why was the cupped left wrist needed?

Sorry if this question has been discussed before. If so, please point me to the link.

Thanks.

[ej002]

Hogan later said "forget all that supination business" or something like that. So it is not one of his fundamentals.

SUpination actually refers to the forearms rotating (Hogan used the term incorrectly). I think the correct term is dorsi flexion, the bow of the wrist. He got that due to the physics of the clubface shutting through impact. Gravity and his pivot shut the face, thus closing his hands down. And he did have a very weak grip. Thats how he got from cupped to bowed.

Look at the attack of the hawk thread, this is some of the same conversation. And dont let Burley ever tell you he "harleyed" the think shut on purpose, because that face stood open until the bottom.

[hoganfan924]

If you read 5 lessons very carefully, it is very clear that Hogan knew exactly what the term supination meant. Unfortunately, this was mixed with the idea of bowing (palmar flexion) of the left wrist and confused a lot of people. The left forearm will supinate naturally just from the action of straightening the right arm. I do not believe that Hogan actively/consciously attempted to supinate the left forearm through impact, witness his very apparent angled hinging in the vast majority of his swings. He had a knack for speaking and writing in riddles, 5 lessons and the Nick Seitz interview of 1985 is full of them, IMO. Supination has always been one of these riddles.

[Blackfinn]

I was merely echoing Mr. Hogan's use of "supination" at page 102 as he applies it to a bowed left wrist. Yes - I agree: supination or rotation of the left forearm happens automatically unless one tries to keep the left elbow pointed at the ground as suggested by David Leadbetter. I am referring to a bowed left wrist where the back of the hand is parallel to the club face and square to the target. How can anyone do this without a very weak grip or coming from fr inside? As questioned, if he did this, what's with the cupped wrist at the top?

[hoganfan924]

The weaker the left hand grip and the more shaft lean at impact (the more angle between the left arm and clubshaft), the more bowed the left wrist will appear. I believe that Hogan's grip was not as weak as most people believe. His "high hands" at address give the illusion of them being weaker. Check it out for yourself. Take your grip and stance and have someone photograph your hands with them held low, then hold them high and see how that effects the appearance of the LH grip.

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='hoganfan924' date='24 April 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1272112531' post='2397844']
The weaker the left hand grip and the more shaft lean at impact (the more angle between the left arm and clubshaft), the more bowed the left wrist will appear. I believe that Hogan's grip was not as weak as most people believe. His "high hands" at address give the illusion of them being weaker. Check it out for yourself. Take your grip and stance and have someone photograph your hands with them held low, then hold them high and see how that effects the appearance of the LH grip.
[/quote]

HF, Understand entirely where you are coming from with your post here. I would only add...... [b]my opinion[/b]....... that for reasons beyond what you have stated I believe Hogan's grip to be the very opposite of what, in conventional terms, would be thought to be a 'weak' grip. Looking carefully at the wonderful Life magazine photos and others, it can be seen that his hands are indeed rotated CCW on the grip and they are so-called 'weak' in relation to the club face itself, your insight not withstanding. For the average player this configuration would spell disaster and surely be deemed to be a very weak grip. Not so for Mr. Hogan. Everything he did in taking up his grip relates to how he postured his hands and arms in relation to the club face and this relationship, in his own setup became the strongest grip he could have as it was particularly suited to the swing as he and only he could make it. It's no secret that I see this through the images I've observed in Abe Mitchell's own gripping technique. Weak grip.......... no way, not for Mitchell and not for Hogan either. DTS

[grizzlyblades]

i try not to think much of these things, for it will just make you frustrated and even ruin your golf swing. if you're not on correct plane and have the correct body rotation nothing will work for you.

[Blackfinn]

I'm [i]not[/i] trying to learn Hogan's swing or incorporate all his swing elements into mine. I'm only saying, if Hogan had a bowed left wrist at impact, which he strongly advocates (weak grip or not), what was the purpose (for him) of the cupped left wrist at the top? To me, it just seems like it adds extra moving parts. I've read most of the Hogan materials, and I have not encountered any explanation for this.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='Blackfinn' date='24 April 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1272132021' post='2398188']
I'm [i]not[/i] trying to learn Hogan's swing or incorporate all his swing elements into mine. I'm only saying, if Hogan had a bowed left wrist at impact, which he strongly advocates (weak grip or not), what was the purpose (for him) of the cupped left wrist at the top? To me, it just seems like it adds extra moving parts. I've read most of the Hogan materials, and I have not encountered any explanation for this.
[/quote]

Ohh, au contre, my friend - there were a lot of discussions concerning Hogan's lead wrist dorsi flexion at the top.
I won't go into details that only great players can describe - however, I can easily explain again biomechanics of this phenomenon. Dorsal flexion of the lead hand approaching top is a function of:
a. reaching the limitation in the lead forearm pronation;
b. low swing plane;
c. effect of an attempt of merging ROMs of both wrists (the rear wrist dorsal flexion 60* with the lead wrist 30* radial deviation).

Cheers

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Blackfinn' date='24 April 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1272132021' post='2398188']
I'm [i]not[/i] trying to learn Hogan's swing or incorporate all his swing elements into mine. I'm only saying, if Hogan had a bowed left wrist at impact, which he strongly advocates (weak grip or not), what was the purpose (for him) of the cupped left wrist at the top? To me, it just seems like it adds extra moving parts. I've read most of the Hogan materials, and I have not encountered any explanation for this.
[/quote]

Cupping the left wrist at the top of the backswing does several things that I believe Hogan found were positives (for him):

1. Cupping gets the left thumb under the shaft and supporting it better at the top of the backswing. IMO, this helps to stabilize the shaft in transition and therefore helped to reduce his earlier "going past parallel" tendency, which improved consistency.
2. The cupping helped to open the face more, part of the anti-hook solution he was looking for
3. Cupping reduces the amount that the shaft gets laid off
4. The wrist is in a biomechanically stronger position when it is slightly cupped

He does explain it in his own words in the Aug. 8, 1955 Life magazine article.

[Blackfinn]

Dariusz & HF: Thanks. I understand the explanations and the benefits of the cupped wrist at top; particulary the opening of the face at the top as an anti-hook fix (HF) AND reaching the limitation in the lead forearm pronation (Dariusz). Seems there must be a lot of hand/wrist manipulation in the downswing to achieve the bowed wrist from a cupped wrist. I think you've both answered by curiosity.

[supercharger]

Blackfinn, I don't think there is much manipulation in the downswing. Just the turning of the handle cw until it forces supination. Turning the handle lets the right hand and the shaft get inline with the right forearm a natural biomechanic place they want to go with leverage to take advantage of the rotation that is pulling the arms around.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='Blackfinn' date='24 April 2010 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1272137471' post='2398267']Seems there must be a lot of hand/wrist manipulation in the downswing to achieve the bowed wrist from a cupped wrist. [/quote]

My answer that I had long ago was - because of overtorque in the forearm area that makes everything unwind. Maximum pronation with a cupped wrist ==> maximum supination with a bowed wrist as a reaction. We have a very long discussion with Magnum about it (vide: secret of the cupped wrist thread).
Recently, my unability to repeat Hogan's pure push release (I play slap-hinge) opened my eyes that I know NOTHING about it really.

Cheers

[magnum184]

Who knows what crazy shhiiii...stuff I posted in that thread. LOL.

[AlexCzervic]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='24 April 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1272146782' post='2398472']
[quote name='Blackfinn' date='24 April 2010 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1272137471' post='2398267']Seems there must be a lot of hand/wrist manipulation in the downswing to achieve the bowed wrist from a cupped wrist. [/quote]

My answer that I had long ago was - because of overtorque in the forearm area that makes everything unwind. Maximum pronation with a cupped wrist ==> maximum supination with a bowed wrist as a reaction. We have a very long discussion with Magnum about it (vide: secret of the cupped wrist thread).
Recently, my unability to repeat Hogan's pure push release (I play slap-hinge) [color="#0000ff"]opened my eyes that I know NOTHING about it really.
[/color]
Cheers
[/quote]

LoL, that hit a funny bone, needed that. Laughing with you not at you.



AC

[grahler]

Hello,

I am a hack golfer. I do have an opinion on the supination aspect and cupped wrist that hogan seems to espouse in five lessons. The posts above described excellent reasons for the cup-support for the club etc. I also think that beginning the downswing while retaining the cupped position of the hands puts the clubhead closer to a position that is outside the line coming down. Some people like to use a cupped wrist to play a fade-so it would seem to make sense. When I think about the supination move after getting the hands down in the downswing-I think it does two things-one it keeps the club from coming out to in-and two it retains proper downswing sequence of maintaining the lag late into the downswing. So IMO it increases power and accuracy of your shots. I can only speak for myself butI know from video evidence when I tend to cut the ball and I am not looking to-it is usually because I did not "supinate" maintain lag or whatever. What other technique allows you to hit as hard as you can with both hands and have no concern with snaphooking?

[bdcava]

A little unrelated but I've never been able to figure out [b][i]how[/i][/b] to get the left wrist cupped at the top of the backwing. I.e., what is the conscious movement to achieve this position? BTW, I'm not saying that I actually want to incorporate this into my swing. I just could never figure out how it is actually done.

[grahler]

I know for me, my wrist is slightly cupped at address so no manipulation take it to the top and there it is-clubshaft supported from below by the thumbs. Think right elbow facing right hip at address and backswing and there it is...

[Blackfinn]

Golf is so unique for everyone. I cup naturally at the top - very much - without thinking about it or having had to ingrain it. It just happens. My instructor hates it and keeps trying to ingrain a flat left wrist at the top.. Mt natural shot is a fade, but I don' know if my fade and cupped wrist are inter-related. Not an expert in distinguishing cause and effect, not by a long way.

[TeeAce]

Hello guys... lots of posts after my last visit and didn't really know where to put this.

I was reading about [color="#1C2837"][url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/358375-attack-of-the-hawk/"]Attack of the Hawk[/url] thread and some others and something came to my mind again.[/color]

[color="#1C2837"]There has been lot of talking about Hogans pivot, his back swing and footage, but not so much about hands IMO. Specially hand / club head relation. I try to put this clear, but maybe it's little complicated to explain. lets try[/color]

[color="#1C2837"]First of all think swing as a rotation and take the bird eye view. You have to use little imagination with that, because there is not too many swings to see from that angle. Now think about that players hands are traveling on that circle and attach club head to that move. For many players their club head is passing the hands at some moment of swing. Some near impact, some little later, but they pass. If I watch Hogan really carefully, I don't see that happening. I feel that his hands are all the time ahead of the club head according that circle. Even in follow through and even at late point of that! [/color]

[color="#1C2837"]And that's the reason I posted this here. I think it's that palmar flexion (most call it supination) where You keep Your right wrist bended all the way up from impact to finnish position, or at least just moment before finnish. So the club head is always pulled and newer released. All the power is created by rotation, which makes the hand speed high and also helps to keep it high through the impact.[/color]

[dap]

If Hogan had a cupped left wrist at the top of his backswing,it would have been minimal at best.I would say he was closer to flat than fully cupped.

I have never seen a clear pic of Hogan with a fully cupped left wrist at the top.Anyone care to post one?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' date='27 April 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1272383528' post='2403973']
If Hogan had a cupped left wrist at the top of his backswing,it would have been minimal at best.I would say he was closer to flat than fully cupped.

I have never seen a clear pic of Hogan with a fully cupped left wrist at the top.Anyone care to post one?
[/quote]

I think he made it just little bit later. For me it was transition move more than back swing. Thats why it cant be seen so well

[dap]

I don't see a cupping of his left wrist on the transition either.This video is not the clearest but it's from a good angle to look at his left wrist.It looks pretty flat to me at the top and on the transition.

Fast forward to 0:30 mark to see his full swing.
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[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' date='27 April 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1272385797' post='2404047']
I don't see a cupping of his left wrist on the transition either.This video is not the clearest but it's from a good angle to look at his left wrist.It looks pretty flat to me at the top and on the transition.

Fast forward to 0:30 mark to see his full swing.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/W0eGEd1JtP4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/W0eGEd1JtP4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
[/quote]

You are right. At least on that video it can't be seen. But I saw something I like very much just one frame before impact....

[Blackfinn]

Dap, you're correct as far as that video. Out of curiousity, do you what year that was?

[dap]

[quote name='Blackfinn' date='28 April 2010 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1272386582' post='2404076']
Dap, you're correct as far as that video. Out of curiousity, do you what year that was?
[/quote]
Not sure the year but it looks post secret to me judging by his clothing but can't be certain.Anyway,Hogan has never looked cupped to me...perhaps a very slight dish angle at most.he didn't have to do much to supinate into impact like a lot of people believe.

This is what cupped looks like....

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[Dariusz J.]

The vid Dap posted appears to be taken from the Shell Match against Snead in 1965.

IMHO, his lead wrist wasn't cupped so much both of you correctly noticed because it is an result what happened before (pronation of the forearm/wrist, low swing plane, etc.) and not a conscious dorsi flexion action.

[attachment=583938:c-2.jpg]

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='dap' date='27 April 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1272385797' post='2404047']
I don't see a cupping of his left wrist on the transition either.This video is not the clearest but it's from a good angle to look at his left wrist.It looks pretty flat to me at the top and on the transition.

Fast forward to 0:30 mark to see his full swing.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/W0eGEd1JtP4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/W0eGEd1JtP4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
[/quote]


[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='27 April 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1272399388' post='2404554']
The vid Dap posted appears to be taken from the Shell Match against Snead in 1965.

IMHO, his lead wrist wasn't cupped so much both of you correctly noticed because it is an result what happened before (pronation of the forearm/wrist, low swing plane, etc.) and not a conscious dorsi flexion action.

[attachment=583938:c-2.jpg]

Cheers
[/quote]

It clear that some people don't believe hogan actually bent his left wrist on purpose ... I believe Hogan and imop the average golfer can't fathom the tremendous forces in the change of direction which in Hogan's case begins 2/3 or even less into his backswing, considering the man was in pitch elbow and decently weighted club.. but wtf would Hogan know

[TheBoomer]

[quote name='hoganfan924' date='23 April 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1272069906' post='2397246']
If you read 5 lessons very carefully, it is very clear that Hogan knew exactly what the term supination meant. Unfortunately, this was mixed with the idea of bowing (palmar flexion) of the left wrist and confused a lot of people. The left forearm will supinate naturally just from the action of straightening the right arm. I do not believe that Hogan actively/consciously attempted to supinate the left forearm through impact, witness his very apparent angled hinging in the vast majority of his swings. He had a knack for speaking and writing in riddles, 5 lessons and the Nick Seitz interview of 1985 is full of them, IMO. Supination has always been one of these riddles.
[/quote]


WoW. You hit it right on the nose.

I think this video (all his videos) does a great job of explaining.

MB


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj7azIXTHIE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj7azIXTHIE[/url]

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='eightiron' date='27 April 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1272409746' post='2404897']
[quote name='dap' date='27 April 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1272385797' post='2404047']
I don't see a cupping of his left wrist on the transition either.This video is not the clearest but it's from a good angle to look at his left wrist.It looks pretty flat to me at the top and on the transition.

Fast forward to 0:30 mark to see his full swing.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/W0eGEd1JtP4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/W0eGEd1JtP4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
[/quote]


[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='27 April 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1272399388' post='2404554']
The vid Dap posted appears to be taken from the Shell Match against Snead in 1965.

IMHO, his lead wrist wasn't cupped so much both of you correctly noticed because it is an result what happened before (pronation of the forearm/wrist, low swing plane, etc.) and not a conscious dorsi flexion action.

[attachment=583938:c-2.jpg]

Cheers
[/quote]

It clear that some people don't believe hogan actually bent his left wrist on purpose ... I believe Hogan and imop the average golfer can't fathom the tremendous forces in the change of direction which in Hogan's case begins 2/3 or even less into his backswing, considering the man was in pitch elbow and decently weighted club.. but wtf would Hogan know
[/quote]

It's funny, isn't it? Hogan wrote in the Aug 8, 1955 Life article "This is my secret" and clearly explained that it was a combination of weakening his grip, pronating his left forearm in the backswing and cupping his left wrist. He also clearly explained that when he wanted to hit a draw, he just eliminated the cup. But I guess he was lying!