Hogan in 5Lessons: Waggle = Backswing (BS)

[michaelgb888]

How you waggle IS how you do the BS?

My interpretation: As per 5L, how you do the waggle is how you do the BS. What do you think?

In 5L, Hogan described how to exactly do the waggle. Hogan did not say anymore how to exactly do the BS other than you do it with the arms, then hands, etc. I think that's because he said it already in describing the waggle before.

Hogan said in 5L: the waggle is a miniature practice swing or dry run for the shot (page 65, last 2 sentences); you can practically rehearse the swing with the waggle (page 66, 3rd par, 1st sentence); the BS is simply an extension of the way you take the club back on the waggle, the club follows that same path (page 69, 2nd par., 2nd sentence); introducing your shoulders on actual BS does not alter the pattern you setup in the waggle, and by turning the shoulders on the BS, you simply increase the arc of your waggle (Page 69, 2nd par., last 2 sentences) Therefore, the waggle IS the BS!

As to the "how", 5L said, as you take the club during the waggle, you accustom yourself to the PATH the CLUB will be taking on the actual BS (p. 65, last sent.). The BS is simply an extension of the way you take the club back on the waggle, the club follows that SAME PATH (page 69, 2nd par., 2nd sentence). Introducing your shoulders on actual BS does not alter the pattern you setup in the waggle, and by turning the shoulders on the BS, you SIMPLY INCREASE the arc of your waggle (Page 69, 2nd par., last 2 sentences). You do these with your left hand as the controlling hand, with the right hand WORKING ALONG with the left (p. 66, last par.). In doing this, the lower part of the arm from elbow to hand rotates and left elbow comest out slightly (ibid). During waggle, hence during BS also, arms remain rooted against sides of the chest (p. 67, 1st par., 2nd sent.) Hence, to do the BS, you just do the waggle, and in doing so, you just add the shoulder turn, while making sure the clubhead retraces the path it took during the waggle. To make this happen to the clubhead (and this is not mentionedd in 5L but by knowleddgeable posters here in golfwrx such as slicefixer), you have to post on your left leg (EDIT: I mean left heel, left hip and left shoulder on almost straight line; vertical on wedge and tilting to the right as club gets longer; of course, right leg is flexed and does not straighten and is like a post as well without any conscious/intentional lateral motion) while somewhat allowing the pulling of the right side trunk. However, AT THE SAME TIME, as mentioned above, it is the left hand/arm that controls the clubhead. To me, the right side pulls, while (meaning simultaneously or at the same time) the left arm rotates/pushes the club. This may make the clubhead go too much inside, but I think this is what Hogan wants us to do with the clubhead (look at the drawings in page 80). And remember, you also pull back the right side, so the clubhead does not go actually go to the inside that much. Also, the club does not get stuck behind you during the DS because in the BS, you are keeping your arms and club in front of your torso by keeping your right elbow in front and hardly moving in relation to the hip.

I do this (and this is important, and I even think this is what Hogan did not disclose anywhere publicly, hence may be called a secret) following slicefixer's suggested setup angles, specifically the whole left side (i.e., left ankle, left hip and left shoulder) being vertical with wedge, and would just tilt to the right as club gets longer, and preset the attaching of the upper left arm to the side of the chest. Then, you rotate into (not over) the right side during the BS, keep left arm straight, and just rotate back on the downswing as slicefixer suggests.

Critiques please?

Best.

[michaelgb888]

Look at Havret who was second in the US Open. I think he is doing this. Look at how he does the takeaway and BS. The only thing different with him is i believe the stance. He is not doing the reverse-K setup as slicefixer teaches. But the others, especially the takeaway and BS is the waggle-BS.

[gir2]

Hogan devoted a considerable amount of 5 lessons to the waggle, but I think many of us gloss over it, thinking it is not important, or just a way to help relieve tension. If the waggle were just a method of feeling out your tempo, I don't see why Hogan would have gone in such detail in describing it. There might be more to it. In any case, what I have been messing with, and what led me to dig up this post, was starting the backswing with the waggle. I mean not just peforming the waggle, then going back to a still static setup position, and then doing a one piece takeaway with no active wrist movement. Rather I'm talking about doing the waggle as the first part of the takeaway. I've gotten pretty good results fiddling about with this and have no idea if doing this is an acceptable method of swinging the club, or whether or not if doing the waggle as the takeaway of the backswing is what Hogan meant or intended per 5L. I don't know if this move is defined in modern terms as setting the wrists early or not. In fiddling with this in front of the mirror it seems it helps to get the club on plane at the top. I'm curious to hear some more thoughts on this topic.

[SwingNV]

I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside.

You are correct in thinking Hogan felt there was more to the waggle than just loosening up. He was tuning the arm and body muscles that will be working during the swing (more specifically thru transition and the downswing).

Left hand controls the waggle he says. Right works with the left. Left controls clubface. Right keeps the pressure going forward.

Right elbow touches above the right hip on the back waggle every time.

Notice the lines he draws on the 3 close-up waggle drawings. The right hand never moves behind this line. It stays centered on the back waggle and then moves an inch or so forward of it's starting position on the forward waggle. There has to be pressure forward towards the target to waggle this way. He is setting up how his right arm works thru impact. Right arm pushes forward and extends thru impact to sustain the line of compression.

If you waggle as Hogan suggests and keep your upper right arm connected to the side of your chest, you will feel tremendous muscular power being stored in your back right lat muscle and shoulder and arm (the entire right torso) . The waggle is foreshadowing the swing, letting it know what it should try and feel during the swing. Your body will try and recreate the sensations just created during the waggle- which is what Hogan intended. This is why Hogan states that he has concentrated so hard on the waggle at times that he felt he hit the shot before he even took the club back.

[HoganAfficianado]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1286548045' post='2734326']
I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside.

You are correct in thinking Hogan felt there was more to the waggle than just loosening up. He was tuning the arm and body muscles that will be working during the swing (more specifically thru transition and the downswing).

Left hand controls the waggle he says. Right works with the left. Left controls clubface. Right keeps the pressure going forward.

Right elbow touches above the right hip on the back waggle every time.

Notice the lines he draws on the 3 close-up waggle drawings. The right hand never moves behind this line. It stays centered on the back waggle and then moves an inch or so forward of it's starting position on the forward waggle. There has to be pressure forward towards the target to waggle this way. He is setting up how his right arm works thru impact. Right arm pushes forward and extends thru impact to sustain the line of compression.

If you waggle as Hogan suggests and keep your upper right arm connected to the side of your chest, you will feel tremendous muscular power being stored in your back right lat muscle and shoulder and arm (the entire right torso) . The waggle is foreshadowing the swing, letting it know what it should try and feel during the swing. Your body will try and recreate the sensations just created during the waggle- which is what Hogan intended. This is why Hogan states that he has concentrated so hard on the waggle at times that he felt he hit the shot before he even took the club back.
[/quote]


+1 great post!

[nitram]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1286548045' post='2734326']
I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside.

You are correct in thinking Hogan felt there was more to the waggle than just loosening up. He was tuning the arm and body muscles that will be working during the swing (more specifically thru transition and the downswing).

Left hand controls the waggle he says. Right works with the left. Left controls clubface. Right keeps the pressure going forward.

Right elbow touches above the right hip on the back waggle every time.

Notice the lines he draws on the 3 close-up waggle drawings. The right hand never moves behind this line. It stays centered on the back waggle and then moves an inch or so forward of it's starting position on the forward waggle. There has to be pressure forward towards the target to waggle this way. He is setting up how his right arm works thru impact. Right arm pushes forward and extends thru impact to sustain the line of compression.

If you waggle as Hogan suggests and keep your upper right arm connected to the side of your chest, you will feel tremendous muscular power being stored in your back right lat muscle and shoulder and arm (the entire right torso) . The waggle is foreshadowing the swing, letting it know what it should try and feel during the swing. Your body will try and recreate the sensations just created during the waggle- which is what Hogan intended. This is why Hogan states that he has concentrated so hard on the waggle at times that he felt he hit the shot before he even took the club back.
[/quote]


Very Well Said, Sir!!!

[gir2]

"DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING...[i]Introducing the shoulders does not alter the pattern you set up in the waggle.[/i] By turning your shoulders on your actual backswing, you simply increase the arc of your waggle."

So I've stopped doing the waggle in isolation to start my backswing, but what I am now doing is doing the waggle to start in conjunction with the shoulder turn and arm movements back. Basically a one piece takeaway with the waggle incorporated into it. Sort of like Joe Dante's recommended early wrist break, but done at the same time as rotating the shoulders. In fact, reading the Dante material is what led me back to this part in 5 lessons. I'm really striking it well doing this with both irons and woods. Had a drive yesterday much longer than I'd ever hit on one particular hole. I guess in effect doing this is essentially breaking the wrists early. I'm not sure, but it's working for now.

[michaelgb888]

"I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside"

So what of your swing arc is too narrow? Narrow in respect of the clubhead, but the shoulders, arms and torso has the same arc. Clubhead would in fact be faster because it is in effect being pulled to the torso (i.e., skater effect). As to the clubhead being pulled too far inside, so what? As long as the elbows, arms are still in front of torso, and your plane is flat, it doesn't matter. It matters only if you swing upright. In fact, the shallower your plane is, like Hogan, the more you have to make the clubhead travel insode in the BS earlier, otherwise you will hit it from out to in in the DS.

[SwingNV]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1286798385' post='2737787']
"I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside"

So what of your swing arc is too narrow? Narrow in respect of the clubhead, but the shoulders, arms and torso has the same arc. Clubhead would in fact be faster because it is in effect being pulled to the torso (i.e., skater effect). As to the clubhead being pulled too far inside, so what? As long as the elbows, arms are still in front of torso, and your plane is flat, it doesn't matter. It matters only if you swing upright. In fact, the shallower your plane is, like Hogan, the more you have to make the clubhead travel insode in the BS earlier, otherwise you will hit it from out to in in the DS.
[/quote]

So what if your swing arc is too narrow? Well there are a lot of problems. Above all, you have less time to create speed. The wider your arc, the farther the clubhead has to travel, which allows you to create more speed. That's why tall players hit the ball so far with easier swings (Els, Love III).

Waggling to start back is acceptable on small pitches and half shots, but you are sacrificing a lot of power on full swings and longer clubs. The result will be a lot of wipes/and or pulls because your backswing and downswing arcs will be far too similar. Take a look at the drawing in 5 Lessons where Hogan shows both the backswing and downswing arcs from face on view. They are much different. Backswing arc is wide which creates great leverage. The downswing arc to the ball is narrower creating speed and a descending blow, and the thruswing arc is very wide again maximizing the line of compression for accuracy.

Also, I believe the skater analogy is relevant on the downswing pivot only. IMO the backswing is about creating leverage not speed.

[nitefisher111]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1286798385' post='2737787']
"I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside"

So what of your swing arc is too narrow? Narrow in respect of the clubhead, but the shoulders, arms and torso has the same arc. Clubhead would in fact be faster because it is in effect being pulled to the torso (i.e., skater effect). As to the clubhead being pulled too far inside, so what? As long as the elbows, arms are still in front of torso, and your plane is flat, it doesn't matter. It matters only if you swing upright. In fact, the shallower your plane is, like Hogan, the more you have to make the clubhead travel insode in the BS earlier, otherwise you will hit it from out to in in the DS.
[/quote]

Clubhead would not be faster. Hogan put his body in position to hit, the clubhead followed....he had the clubhead trapped on the backswing....which stores tremendous energy. You can achieve the same positions (relatively) as Hogan did by doing what you are describing but you will lose the dynamics.

[michaelgb888]

What do you mean by clubhead trapped in BS? How do you do that?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1286807482' post='2737927']
[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1286798385' post='2737787']
"I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside"

So what of your swing arc is too narrow? Narrow in respect of the clubhead, but the shoulders, arms and torso has the same arc. Clubhead would in fact be faster because it is in effect being pulled to the torso (i.e., skater effect). As to the clubhead being pulled too far inside, so what? As long as the elbows, arms are still in front of torso, and your plane is flat, it doesn't matter. It matters only if you swing upright. In fact, the shallower your plane is, like Hogan, the more you have to make the clubhead travel insode in the BS earlier, otherwise you will hit it from out to in in the DS.
[/quote]

So what if your swing arc is too narrow? Well there are a lot of problems. Above all, you have less time to create speed. The wider your arc, the farther the clubhead has to travel, which allows you to create more speed. That's why tall players hit the ball so far with easier swings (Els, Love III).

Waggling to start back is acceptable on small pitches and half shots, but you are sacrificing a lot of power on full swings and longer clubs. The result will be a lot of wipes/and or pulls because your backswing and downswing arcs will be far too similar. Take a look at the drawing in 5 Lessons where Hogan shows both the backswing and downswing arcs from face on view. They are much different. Backswing arc is wide which creates great leverage. The downswing arc to the ball is narrower creating speed and a descending blow, and the thruswing arc is very wide again maximizing the line of compression for accuracy.

Also, I believe the skater analogy is relevant on the downswing pivot only. IMO the backswing is about creating leverage not speed.
[/quote]

this is a great post. +1. But what youre saying is that if I do a waggle BS as opposed to a wide one peace takeaway Im sacrificing power? You are truly mistaken sir. I hit all of my clubs just as far with either BS. the goal is automation. Thats what we're all looking for, but if distance is the question then its not an issue. How you start the downswing and continue into the ball will determine the efficiency of your swing. As long as the tightness is on your lead side(abdominal/obliques) at the top then the size of the arc doesnt matter going back.

[michaelgb888]

Exactly! Now that's a great post pingg10.

[IH82BOGEY]

I think more than anything, Hogan is previewing the[b] dynamic feel[/b] of lagging impact for the particular shot at hand (fade, draw, trajectory). The clubhead moves back an forth as lead by the hands and described in the illustration on page 67. Note how the left hand is ahead of his address hands position during the waggle and the right wrist is bent. It is an impact feel rehearsal. It is about finding the feel for the next unique shot and less about backswing positions which have to be arrived at dynamically. As he says: DONT GROOVE YOUR WAGGLE..

[SwingNV]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1286865629' post='2739206']
this is a great post. +1. But what youre saying is that if I do a waggle BS as opposed to a wide one peace takeaway Im sacrificing power? You are truly mistaken sir. I hit all of my clubs just as far with either BS. the goal is automation. Thats what we're all looking for, but if distance is the question then its not an issue. How you start the downswing and continue into the ball will determine the efficiency of your swing. As long as the tightness is on your lead side(abdominal/obliques) at the top then the size of the arc doesnt matter going back.
[/quote]

Good post Ping, but you are talking like swing arc and lead side torsion are independent of one another whereas they are actually dependent on one another. The longer your swing arc, the more you increase your potential load.

I understand what you and mgb888 are saying I just don't agree with it personally. If I do the waggle first then turn, my 5 iron distance will be 180 instead of 200. Now the difference may be as simple as what Ping suggests, my lead side torsion may not be the same. It may just be that I rely more on my swing arc to load my lead side than you guys.

What I feel is the difference, is that my left arm lays across my chest too far which in turn has collapsed my swing arc and my arms are now trapped behind my body. My swing arc on the downswing will now be way too far inside and steep unless I reroute or make a huge slide. I'm always fighting getting stuck in my swing, so right elbow close in right away on a waggle-first backswing is a disaster for me.

I swing my best when I feel I'm pushing my right hand as far away from me as possible. I try and do this thru the entire swing. This keeps my arms synced up with my torso and always in front. This also maximizes my swing arc, which I believe maximizes my load and/or distance.

[nitefisher111]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1286865629' post='2739206']
[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1286807482' post='2737927']
[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1286798385' post='2737787']
"I would advise against starting the backswing with the waggle because your swing arc will be much too narrow and the club will be pulled too far to the inside"

So what of your swing arc is too narrow? Narrow in respect of the clubhead, but the shoulders, arms and torso has the same arc. Clubhead would in fact be faster because it is in effect being pulled to the torso (i.e., skater effect). As to the clubhead being pulled too far inside, so what? As long as the elbows, arms are still in front of torso, and your plane is flat, it doesn't matter. It matters only if you swing upright. In fact, the shallower your plane is, like Hogan, the more you have to make the clubhead travel insode in the BS earlier, otherwise you will hit it from out to in in the DS.
[/quote]

So what if your swing arc is too narrow? Well there are a lot of problems. Above all, you have less time to create speed. The wider your arc, the farther the clubhead has to travel, which allows you to create more speed. That's why tall players hit the ball so far with easier swings (Els, Love III).

Waggling to start back is acceptable on small pitches and half shots, but you are sacrificing a lot of power on full swings and longer clubs. The result will be a lot of wipes/and or pulls because your backswing and downswing arcs will be far too similar. Take a look at the drawing in 5 Lessons where Hogan shows both the backswing and downswing arcs from face on view. They are much different. Backswing arc is wide which creates great leverage. The downswing arc to the ball is narrower creating speed and a descending blow, and the thruswing arc is very wide again maximizing the line of compression for accuracy.

Also, I believe the skater analogy is relevant on the downswing pivot only. IMO the backswing is about creating leverage not speed.
[/quote]

this is a great post. +1. But what youre saying is that if I do a waggle BS as opposed to a wide one peace takeaway Im sacrificing power? You are truly mistaken sir. I hit all of my clubs just as far with either BS. the goal is automation. Thats what we're all looking for, but if distance is the question then its not an issue. How you start the downswing and continue into the ball will determine the efficiency of your swing. As long as the tightness is on your lead side(abdominal/obliques) at the top then the size of the arc doesnt matter going back.
[/quote]
If you are seeking automation (I would rather use "repeatablity") you would be wise to try and emulate the way Hogan performed the backswing....IMO, it is a very important piece of the puzzle. Additionally, if you perform the backswing correctly and as Hogan suggested in 5 Lessons, you will most definitely hit the ball further.....Hogan loaded the crap out of the club on his backswing.

[michaelgb888]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1286909806' post='2739902']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1286865629' post='2739206']
this is a great post. +1. But what youre saying is that if I do a waggle BS as opposed to a wide one peace takeaway Im sacrificing power? You are truly mistaken sir. I hit all of my clubs just as far with either BS. the goal is automation. Thats what we're all looking for, but if distance is the question then its not an issue. How you start the downswing and continue into the ball will determine the efficiency of your swing. As long as the tightness is on your lead side(abdominal/obliques) at the top then the size of the arc doesnt matter going back.
[/quote]

Good post Ping, but you are talking like swing arc and lead side torsion are independent of one another whereas they are actually dependent on one another. The longer your swing arc, the more you increase your potential load.

I understand what you and mgb888 are saying I just don't agree with it personally. If I do the waggle first then turn, my 5 iron distance will be 180 instead of 200. Now the difference may be as simple as what Ping suggests, my lead side torsion may not be the same. It may just be that I rely more on my swing arc to load my lead side than you guys.


What I feel is the difference, is that my left arm lays across my chest too far which in turn has collapsed my swing arc and my arms are now trapped behind my body. My swing arc on the downswing will now be way too far inside and steep unless I reroute or make a huge slide. I'm always fighting getting stuck in my swing, so right elbow close in right away on a waggle-first backswing is a disaster for me.

I swing my best when I feel I'm pushing my right hand as far away from me as possible. I try and do this thru the entire swing. This keeps my arms synced up with my torso and always in front. This also maximizes my swing arc, which I believe maximizes my load and/or distance.
[/quote]



No, not waggle first then turn. The waggle and shoulder turn is simultaneous. Hogan said, the only difference between the waggle and BS is the shoulder turn. As to the right hand not leaving the line at address, I take it to mean that it is just bending back, but not in its own initiative but at the initiative of the left hand. As Hogan said, the right hand works along with the left. So in BS, while turning your shoulder/torso, just do the waggle, no need to lift the arms/hands, and when you reach the limits of the BS, just turn back towards the target. There will be precision here because there are much less moving parts, essentially just the torso/shoulder and hands. Arms, you do not have to think about it, just pin it to your armpits and do the waggle. Since there is precision already, all you have to do is turn as fast as you can while maintaining your spine angle. No need to think of weight shift and all those s*** (just MHO, although there will actually be, but not intentional/actively done). Since youre just turning, you can do it effortlessly and as fast as you can.

But you cannot do this if youre grip and stance/address is wrong. Just follow Hogan strictly on this. As to address, there has to be max downcocking already at address, so that when you do the DS, you do not have to think about returning the ball exactly. When you turn back in DS, clubhead will automatically return to the address point/position since the turn, weight of the clubhead and force (CP or CF) will downcock your wrists/clubhead automatically.

Your arms doesnt have to be stuck. Keep your elbows, especially the right one in front of your hip. You cannot do that though if your right hand grip is wrong. Just my personal experience and HO, for what its worth.

[willard1523]

I just read five lessons again about 2 weeks ago. Next time I played shot even par for the first time, just by getting my grip spot on. I've now been fooling around with my takeaway using kind of a half-waggle then shoulder turn. I started killing the ball and I feel more in sync. I think I've been overdoing the one piece takeaway and was setting the club in the downswing(float loading) which works great with irons for me but not so great with driver for some reason. I think my quick transition was getting me stuck that way. I'm gonna keep working with the half-waggle takeaway because I definitely can now feel the club set at the top and my arms stop when my shoulders stop(no runoff)

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1286909806' post='2739902']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1286865629' post='2739206']
this is a great post. +1. But what youre saying is that if I do a waggle BS as opposed to a wide one peace takeaway Im sacrificing power? You are truly mistaken sir. I hit all of my clubs just as far with either BS. the goal is automation. Thats what we're all looking for, but if distance is the question then its not an issue. How you start the downswing and continue into the ball will determine the efficiency of your swing. As long as the tightness is on your lead side(abdominal/obliques) at the top then the size of the arc doesnt matter going back.
[/quote]

Good post Ping, but you are talking like swing arc and lead side torsion are independent of one another whereas they are actually dependent on one another. The longer your swing arc, the more you increase your potential load.

I understand what you and mgb888 are saying I just don't agree with it personally. If I do the waggle first then turn, my 5 iron distance will be 180 instead of 200. Now the difference may be as simple as what Ping suggests, my lead side torsion may not be the same.[b] It may just be that I rely more on my swing arc to load my lead side than you guys.
[/b]
What I feel is the difference, is that my left arm lays across my chest too far which in turn has collapsed my swing arc and my arms are now trapped behind my body. My swing arc on the downswing will now be way too far inside and steep unless I reroute or make a huge slide. I'm always fighting getting stuck in my swing, so right elbow close in right away on a waggle-first backswing is a disaster for me.

I swing my best when I feel I'm pushing my right hand as far away from me as possible. I try and do this thru the entire swing. This keeps my arms synced up with my torso and always in front. This also maximizes my swing arc, which I believe maximizes my load and/or distance.
[/quote]

another great viewpoint. I found it incredibly hard to use a handsy takeaway and lower the left shoulder(the way [i]I[/i] create maximum lead side tension)...too much to think about. Then I realized my thoughts on hand movement at takeaway was way more than it should be

Recently after going back through 5 lessons I found the order of backswing movement we've all read starts with the hands. Hogan didnt say hold the angle of address and carry the hands back with the shoulder turn; and he didnt say totally relax the hands and through them around with the core muscles (which apparently is a popular idea with older golfers i meet at my course). He said the hands [b]move[/b] first and it will appear simultaneous with the move of shoulders in the BS. The move that works best for me is when I feel just a small tension in the snuff box area of my right hand and its a minimal **** and hinge-away type of movement (making a thumbs up-cocking is up and down; hinging is cupping or bowing).

Since I have a flatter swing I dont need to consciously lower my left shoulder. I just turn back and through and I have plenty of lead side tension because Im not that flexible anyway.

Looking back on when I met John Little(played on military sponsor exemption at the Valero Texas Open) I asked him what starts the backswing. He held the club and bent his right hand back and up a little bit and said "that little hitch right there". Pushing the right hand as far away as possible creates extensor pressure. IMO I think its good for anybodies swing. Ive been through a lot of swing changes lately and I havent filmed my full swing with a club in a few months...maybe Im already maximizing my swing arc without thinking about it. All I know is that 5 iron I hit today from 190 out into 10mph wind was pretty sweet...tap in birdies are good for the soul.

Back to the topic I see a "wide backswing" as holding the club/right arm straight until the last possible second and letting the right elbow flexion whip the club into position at the top (which can cause loss of balance if the BS is too quick via rebound effect). Now if I used a handsy takeaway and arrive at the same position at the top, and I mean exactly the same with the same lead side tension; then wouldnt my transition still be the determining factor in how I release the energy and tension into the ball at impact?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1287033501' post='2742392']

But you cannot do this if youre grip and stance/address is wrong. Just follow Hogan strictly on this. As to address, there has to be max downcocking already at address, so that when you do the DS, you do not have to think about returning the ball exactly. When you turn back in DS, clubhead will automatically return to the address point/position since the turn, weight of the clubhead and force (CP or CF) will downcock your wrists/clubhead automatically.

Your arms doesnt have to be stuck. Keep your elbows, especially the right one in front of your hip. You cannot do that though if your right hand grip is wrong. Just my personal experience and HO, for what its worth.
[/quote]

+1. My experience is exactly the same.

[Bill-der]

Only found this thread after having tried the method mentioned above ..it was so successful yet felt so weird ...but right at the same time

I'm a high handicapper who knows little or nothing but dead keen.

Just wondering if any of you guys/gals out there have any more info or experiences with starting the back swing with the waggle as Mr Hogan seems to suggest in 5L

it's working for me

[grahler]

If you follow the sequence Hogan dictates it allows you to shorten your armswing without overtravel in transition-if you don't **** wrists correctly nothing works right from that point-which is the point that the club begines to move back from the ball hands first-I just recently got this very point and corrected a flaw for myself...very good stuff here...

[svsvincenzo]

Yeah, good info here.. Just missed the hip turn.. Can't allow weight to remain on left, you can't turn your hips if you do that. You gotta transfer pressure to right during bs, then fire hips to transfer weight left and lead the shoulders and arms to swing as fast as they can..

[ocat1979]

Quoted directly from 5L, start of page 112.

"In golf, you know, you learn things very early and some things surprisingly late. For example, just take three of the several elements[b] i now regard as absolutely fundamental to any and every good golf swing: the proper waggle[/b], the proper hip turn, and the proper backswing plane"

This shows how important the waggle was to Hogan, he regarded it just as important as the swing itself!

Remember it's just a movement of the wrists, NO SHOULDER MOVEMENT, with the right elbow touching the right hip and the left wrist moving just past (target side) the ball.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ocat1979' timestamp='1304929291' post='3218287']
Quoted directly from 5L, start of page 112.

"In golf, you know, you learn things very early and some things surprisingly late. For example, just take three of the several elements[b] i now regard as absolutely fundamental to any and every good golf swing: the proper waggle[/b], the proper hip turn, and the proper backswing plane"

This shows how important the waggle was to Hogan, he regarded it just as important as the swing itself!

Remember it's just a movement of the wrists, NO SHOULDER MOVEMENT, with the right elbow touching the right hip and the left wrist moving just past (target side) the ball.
[/quote]


That's because the waggle is the swing itself. Just mix the waggle with the pivot, and you'll get Hogans swing in essence...

[eqman]

The measuring device is from your left shoulder to the tip of the club...whether you waggle to create you backswing or you waggle a bit later.... there isn`t any difference....The length of the arc going back has little to do with the distance the ball goes or the power created....Whatever you do... you will still end up at the top in the same position....if you maintain a straight left arm....Do a test coock you hands as in the waggle and turn your shoulders to the top then don`t waggle first you will see the same position at the top...Hogan says the left hand arm control...to do that they need to be the first to initiate the swing hence the waggle...At impact you will be back to the straight left arm and the measurement you set up at address....Jim

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='jimjc' timestamp='1306359668' post='3262572']
The measuring device is from your left shoulder to the tip of the club...whether you waggle to create you backswing or you waggle a bit later.... there isn`t any difference....The length of the arc going back has little to do with the distance the ball goes or the power created....Whatever you do... you will still end up at the top in the same position....if you maintain a straight left arm....Do a test coock you hands as in the waggle and turn your shoulders to the top then don`t waggle first you will see the same position at the top...Hogan says the left hand arm control...to do that they need to be the first to initiate the swing hence the waggle...At impact you will be back to the straight left arm and the measurement you set up at address....Jim
[/quote]


So you dont think changing the width of the arc early in the swing does anything?

[eqman]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1306362743' post='3262665']
[quote name='jimjc' timestamp='1306359668' post='3262572']
The measuring device is from your left shoulder to the tip of the club...whether you waggle to create you backswing or you waggle a bit later.... there isn`t any difference....The length of the arc going back has little to do with the distance the ball goes or the power created....Whatever you do... you will still end up at the top in the same position....if you maintain a straight left arm....Do a test coock you hands as in the waggle and turn your shoulders to the top then don`t waggle first you will see the same position at the top...Hogan says the left hand arm control...to do that they need to be the first to initiate the swing hence the waggle...At impact you will be back to the straight left arm and the measurement you set up at address....Jim
[/quote]


So you dont think changing the width of the arc early in the swing does anything?
[/quote]


Why would it....the arc of the BACKSWING has nothing to do with where you are at the top...your left arm is straight...your shoulders have turned 90 degrees....The torque or Xfactor you create is the same..... coming down the lag is the same and the straight line impact is the same the release is the same....Waggle is a rehersal of the type of shot you wish to pull off...and it gets you away from getting to static...Jim

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='jimjc' timestamp='1306366044' post='3262770']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1306362743' post='3262665']
[quote name='jimjc' timestamp='1306359668' post='3262572']
The measuring device is from your left shoulder to the tip of the club...whether you waggle to create you backswing or you waggle a bit later.... there isn`t any difference....The length of the arc going back has little to do with the distance the ball goes or the power created....Whatever you do... you will still end up at the top in the same position....if you maintain a straight left arm....Do a test coock you hands as in the waggle and turn your shoulders to the top then don`t waggle first you will see the same position at the top...Hogan says the left hand arm control...to do that they need to be the first to initiate the swing hence the waggle...At impact you will be back to the straight left arm and the measurement you set up at address....Jim
[/quote]


So you dont think changing the width of the arc early in the swing does anything?
[/quote]


Why would it....the arc of the BACKSWING has nothing to do with where you are at the top...your left arm is straight...your shoulders have turned 90 degrees....The torque or Xfactor you create is the same..... coming down the lag is the same and the straight line impact is the same the release is the same....Waggle is a rehersal of the type of shot you wish to pull off...and it gets you away from getting to static...Jim
[/quote]

I agree. well put

[williambenjamin11]

Cmon. You'll have to floatload if you don't do the waggle-action right at takeaway. Yes arc won't actually change, bit thedynamics changes. You're actually giving the clubhead a headstart, which it needs because ch has longer arc/distance to travel compared to hands. If you don't waggle immediately, specifically rotate and c0ck/hinge the wrists, especially the right wrist, the c0ck/hinge will happen late, near the top of bs, and will be sudden because it has to be as it already is nearthe end of its destination at top. Because of that, it will uncock early also because of the sudden c0cking at end of bs because of the bouncing effect. And you can't stop that. Early release of c0ck/hinge..you know what that causes.. And Hogan clearly didn't do that...he has tons of lag..

The main point I believe in the waggle is the early hinge of right wrist. Hogan even draw a line on it..I believe to emphasize the right wrist. Left wrist/hand rotates/cocks immediately as well, but that is sorta natural without you thinking about it once you pivostand rotate the face open with left arm as Hogan said. But the right wrist, you have to consciously hinge it immediately..otherwise it remains straight/unhinged..which means inside ch and low with right elbow sliding back, you cant recover from that... Consider also Hogan's very fast bs, it makes sense he needs the early hinge/c0ck... Or is it--since he does the early c0ck/hinge, he can now have a very fast bs, hence the very very very fast ds/ch speed at impact?